Unschoolers/Pet Theory
Scott P. Cook
Seeing how many of you have lots of pets like we do, I'm wondering if
the whole unschooling philosophy is consistent with collecting many
pets. Instead of the rules and structure that cause most folks to be
"practical" about saying no to their kids when they want yet another
animal (or saying no to spouse), do we just wing it and take it "one pet
at a time", deciding whether no would be a more harmful answer than yes
each time? I don't want to sound like I advocate impulse pet
acquisition, but I think it's okay to take on pets impulsively if you
have a firm commitment and policy in your home not to get rid of them
once to take them on. I know so many people who are more structured
than we are who seem to need every i dotted and t crossed before they'll
bring in a new pet, which doesn't allow for those times when your kid
just really needs that new friend right now!
This is one of the most touching things I've ever heard a parent say
about pets. When I used to teach dog training classes, there was a
family who brought their new shelter dog to class. This dog was truly
homely and definitely lacking in what I would consider a good
temperament. But she worked for them, and that's what counts. The
problem was, she hadn't bonded to the child that needed a dog in that
family, so although this woman had never been a pet person, and had to
adjust to the idea of even one pet, she decided to get a 2nd dog for
this child. This time I helped her pick a breed and a reputable breeder
and they got an adorable Miniature Poodle puppy. The puppy bonded to
the middle child in the family, as hoped, and all was well. The mom
said to me, "I watched one daughter go through junior high school, and
promised that I would never let another of my children go through those
tough years without a friend to come home to besides mom." While the
argument could be made that if it's that tough to get through junior
high, people should just homeschool, we all know most people aren't
going to do what we do, so I thought that was a wonderful attitude this
woman had.
Laurel
--
Laurel A. Summerfield (scottcook@...)
Burke, Virginia USA
703-978-8390
703-978-8233 fax
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the whole unschooling philosophy is consistent with collecting many
pets. Instead of the rules and structure that cause most folks to be
"practical" about saying no to their kids when they want yet another
animal (or saying no to spouse), do we just wing it and take it "one pet
at a time", deciding whether no would be a more harmful answer than yes
each time? I don't want to sound like I advocate impulse pet
acquisition, but I think it's okay to take on pets impulsively if you
have a firm commitment and policy in your home not to get rid of them
once to take them on. I know so many people who are more structured
than we are who seem to need every i dotted and t crossed before they'll
bring in a new pet, which doesn't allow for those times when your kid
just really needs that new friend right now!
This is one of the most touching things I've ever heard a parent say
about pets. When I used to teach dog training classes, there was a
family who brought their new shelter dog to class. This dog was truly
homely and definitely lacking in what I would consider a good
temperament. But she worked for them, and that's what counts. The
problem was, she hadn't bonded to the child that needed a dog in that
family, so although this woman had never been a pet person, and had to
adjust to the idea of even one pet, she decided to get a 2nd dog for
this child. This time I helped her pick a breed and a reputable breeder
and they got an adorable Miniature Poodle puppy. The puppy bonded to
the middle child in the family, as hoped, and all was well. The mom
said to me, "I watched one daughter go through junior high school, and
promised that I would never let another of my children go through those
tough years without a friend to come home to besides mom." While the
argument could be made that if it's that tough to get through junior
high, people should just homeschool, we all know most people aren't
going to do what we do, so I thought that was a wonderful attitude this
woman had.
Laurel
--
Laurel A. Summerfield (scottcook@...)
Burke, Virginia USA
703-978-8390
703-978-8233 fax
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
----------
From: "Scott P. Cook" <scottcook@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Unschoolers/Pet Theory
Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2002, 6:08 AM
----------
I think it's okay to take on pets impulsively if you
have a firm commitment and policy in your home not to get rid of them
once to take them on.
----------
Part of the above depends on the pet and the household, too. I would not
hesitate to get rid of a dog who became truly aggressive. I have my own and
others little kids around, and I don't care about the dog's neuroses, he's
outta here. We raised frogs last year and kept them for some time, but they
got expensive to feed and we released them. We had a rat breeding project
and when we were done playing with colors and size we sold off all but the
four girl rats we have now, for snake food and pets.
We have rabbits now and will be in 4H. We will have culls (both to be put
down for health or temperament reasons and to be sold once they are no
longer useful in our breeding program). We may change around what colors we
work on, or even what breed, which will mean selling off some to make room
for others. Of course, rabbits are an "either way" animal -- some people
keep them purely as pets, ours are more partly-pets, partly-livestock. The
girls do have veto power for placements, which will be a good lesson to them
in "if I want to work on this, that rabbit has to go to make cage space". I
am sure they (and I, and heaven knows my sappy husband <g>) will have
special pet rabbits that will die here happily of old age, but they can't
all be that way or the program grinds to a halt once we will our cage space.
I know our attitude is horrifying to pure pet folks, but there it is. We'd
spend $2000 on our JRT if she came down with something dreadful and needed
the vet. I wouldn't spend that on a rat or a rabbit or on most cats (current
cat excepted <g>. His brother, who we put down when he had liver failure
last year, might have been saved with a $1500 surgery followed up by another
couple thousand in ongoing treatments -- and it wasn't just an unwillingness
to put the poor thing through all that that made me say "no", it was also
the money. Frankly, he just wasn't that great a cat).
In my universe, people are more important than pets. This doesn't mean we
don't owe them kindness and care when they're kept by us, but it does mean
that I value them on a sliding scale. This house is maintained for the
comfort of the humans who live here, pets have to fit in or go.
----------
This is one of the most touching things I've ever heard a parent say
about pets. When I used to teach dog training classes
----------
Me too! :)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: "Scott P. Cook" <scottcook@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Unschoolers/Pet Theory
Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2002, 6:08 AM
----------
I think it's okay to take on pets impulsively if you
have a firm commitment and policy in your home not to get rid of them
once to take them on.
----------
Part of the above depends on the pet and the household, too. I would not
hesitate to get rid of a dog who became truly aggressive. I have my own and
others little kids around, and I don't care about the dog's neuroses, he's
outta here. We raised frogs last year and kept them for some time, but they
got expensive to feed and we released them. We had a rat breeding project
and when we were done playing with colors and size we sold off all but the
four girl rats we have now, for snake food and pets.
We have rabbits now and will be in 4H. We will have culls (both to be put
down for health or temperament reasons and to be sold once they are no
longer useful in our breeding program). We may change around what colors we
work on, or even what breed, which will mean selling off some to make room
for others. Of course, rabbits are an "either way" animal -- some people
keep them purely as pets, ours are more partly-pets, partly-livestock. The
girls do have veto power for placements, which will be a good lesson to them
in "if I want to work on this, that rabbit has to go to make cage space". I
am sure they (and I, and heaven knows my sappy husband <g>) will have
special pet rabbits that will die here happily of old age, but they can't
all be that way or the program grinds to a halt once we will our cage space.
I know our attitude is horrifying to pure pet folks, but there it is. We'd
spend $2000 on our JRT if she came down with something dreadful and needed
the vet. I wouldn't spend that on a rat or a rabbit or on most cats (current
cat excepted <g>. His brother, who we put down when he had liver failure
last year, might have been saved with a $1500 surgery followed up by another
couple thousand in ongoing treatments -- and it wasn't just an unwillingness
to put the poor thing through all that that made me say "no", it was also
the money. Frankly, he just wasn't that great a cat).
In my universe, people are more important than pets. This doesn't mean we
don't owe them kindness and care when they're kept by us, but it does mean
that I value them on a sliding scale. This house is maintained for the
comfort of the humans who live here, pets have to fit in or go.
----------
This is one of the most touching things I've ever heard a parent say
about pets. When I used to teach dog training classes
----------
Me too! :)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Scott P. Cook
Pam -
I actually agree with you on just about all counts. Aggressive dogs
should not be kept, but they should be euthanized rather than placed
elsewhere for someone else to deal with. The exception to that would be
if you have the 1) dog experience and 2) knowledge of that particular
dog to place it 3) with someone who can handle the problem
appropriately, and only then if 4) the problem is one that truly can be
managed. And these 4 parameters don't come together often.
And of course when you have lots of pets you have to prioritize how much
you'll spend to fix problems. One of the reasons we're going down on
our number of pets - strictly through attrition is that I don't like
that feeling of not being able to do everything financially for a pet I
love. I pull out all the stops for my Dalmatians and cats, but not
always for the ferrets and rats. The other reason is that my kids are
activity-manic, and we are home less (not homeless!) more than we used
to be, and my dogs clearly miss us.
When you have a breeding program, you have to place some of your
animals, but if it's done responsibly, there's nothing wrong with that.
The problem I have is when people have a few pets, get rid of them
because the kids are tired of them, then get more, rinse, repeat . . .
A woman on a homeschool list recently wrote that she was looking for
homes for her son's frogs and gecko because he'd lost interest in them
since they got a new puppy. I wrote back a polite private message about
pet responsiblity and how very possible it was that he would also lose
interest in the puppy because that was the routine that was being set
up. I mentioned that none of my 4 kids had ever lost interest in any of
the 70+ pets we'd had over the years. She wrote back a very nice reply
assuring me that they were very responsible about their pets. My whole
point of the lesson her son was learning about pets and responsibility
completely went over her head.
Laurel
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Hartley [mailto:pamhartley@...]
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Unschoolers/Pet Theory
----------
From: "Scott P. Cook" <scottcook@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Unschoolers/Pet Theory
Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2002, 6:08 AM
----------
I think it's okay to take on pets impulsively if you
have a firm commitment and policy in your home not to get rid of them
once to take them on.
----------
Part of the above depends on the pet and the household, too. I would not
hesitate to get rid of a dog who became truly aggressive. I have my own
and
others little kids around, and I don't care about the dog's neuroses,
he's
outta here. We raised frogs last year and kept them for some time, but
they
got expensive to feed and we released them. We had a rat breeding
project
and when we were done playing with colors and size we sold off all but
the
four girl rats we have now, for snake food and pets.
We have rabbits now and will be in 4H. We will have culls (both to be
put
down for health or temperament reasons and to be sold once they are no
longer useful in our breeding program). We may change around what colors
we
work on, or even what breed, which will mean selling off some to make
room
for others. Of course, rabbits are an "either way" animal -- some people
keep them purely as pets, ours are more partly-pets, partly-livestock.
The
girls do have veto power for placements, which will be a good lesson to
them
in "if I want to work on this, that rabbit has to go to make cage
space". I
am sure they (and I, and heaven knows my sappy husband <g>) will have
special pet rabbits that will die here happily of old age, but they
can't
all be that way or the program grinds to a halt once we will our cage
space.
I know our attitude is horrifying to pure pet folks, but there it is.
We'd
spend $2000 on our JRT if she came down with something dreadful and
needed
the vet. I wouldn't spend that on a rat or a rabbit or on most cats
(current
cat excepted <g>. His brother, who we put down when he had liver failure
last year, might have been saved with a $1500 surgery followed up by
another
couple thousand in ongoing treatments -- and it wasn't just an
unwillingness
to put the poor thing through all that that made me say "no", it was
also
the money. Frankly, he just wasn't that great a cat).
In my universe, people are more important than pets. This doesn't mean
we
don't owe them kindness and care when they're kept by us, but it does
mean
that I value them on a sliding scale. This house is maintained for the
comfort of the humans who live here, pets have to fit in or go.
----------
This is one of the most touching things I've ever heard a parent say
about pets. When I used to teach dog training classes
----------
Me too! :)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I actually agree with you on just about all counts. Aggressive dogs
should not be kept, but they should be euthanized rather than placed
elsewhere for someone else to deal with. The exception to that would be
if you have the 1) dog experience and 2) knowledge of that particular
dog to place it 3) with someone who can handle the problem
appropriately, and only then if 4) the problem is one that truly can be
managed. And these 4 parameters don't come together often.
And of course when you have lots of pets you have to prioritize how much
you'll spend to fix problems. One of the reasons we're going down on
our number of pets - strictly through attrition is that I don't like
that feeling of not being able to do everything financially for a pet I
love. I pull out all the stops for my Dalmatians and cats, but not
always for the ferrets and rats. The other reason is that my kids are
activity-manic, and we are home less (not homeless!) more than we used
to be, and my dogs clearly miss us.
When you have a breeding program, you have to place some of your
animals, but if it's done responsibly, there's nothing wrong with that.
The problem I have is when people have a few pets, get rid of them
because the kids are tired of them, then get more, rinse, repeat . . .
A woman on a homeschool list recently wrote that she was looking for
homes for her son's frogs and gecko because he'd lost interest in them
since they got a new puppy. I wrote back a polite private message about
pet responsiblity and how very possible it was that he would also lose
interest in the puppy because that was the routine that was being set
up. I mentioned that none of my 4 kids had ever lost interest in any of
the 70+ pets we'd had over the years. She wrote back a very nice reply
assuring me that they were very responsible about their pets. My whole
point of the lesson her son was learning about pets and responsibility
completely went over her head.
Laurel
-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Hartley [mailto:pamhartley@...]
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Unschoolers/Pet Theory
----------
From: "Scott P. Cook" <scottcook@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Unschoolers/Pet Theory
Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2002, 6:08 AM
----------
I think it's okay to take on pets impulsively if you
have a firm commitment and policy in your home not to get rid of them
once to take them on.
----------
Part of the above depends on the pet and the household, too. I would not
hesitate to get rid of a dog who became truly aggressive. I have my own
and
others little kids around, and I don't care about the dog's neuroses,
he's
outta here. We raised frogs last year and kept them for some time, but
they
got expensive to feed and we released them. We had a rat breeding
project
and when we were done playing with colors and size we sold off all but
the
four girl rats we have now, for snake food and pets.
We have rabbits now and will be in 4H. We will have culls (both to be
put
down for health or temperament reasons and to be sold once they are no
longer useful in our breeding program). We may change around what colors
we
work on, or even what breed, which will mean selling off some to make
room
for others. Of course, rabbits are an "either way" animal -- some people
keep them purely as pets, ours are more partly-pets, partly-livestock.
The
girls do have veto power for placements, which will be a good lesson to
them
in "if I want to work on this, that rabbit has to go to make cage
space". I
am sure they (and I, and heaven knows my sappy husband <g>) will have
special pet rabbits that will die here happily of old age, but they
can't
all be that way or the program grinds to a halt once we will our cage
space.
I know our attitude is horrifying to pure pet folks, but there it is.
We'd
spend $2000 on our JRT if she came down with something dreadful and
needed
the vet. I wouldn't spend that on a rat or a rabbit or on most cats
(current
cat excepted <g>. His brother, who we put down when he had liver failure
last year, might have been saved with a $1500 surgery followed up by
another
couple thousand in ongoing treatments -- and it wasn't just an
unwillingness
to put the poor thing through all that that made me say "no", it was
also
the money. Frankly, he just wasn't that great a cat).
In my universe, people are more important than pets. This doesn't mean
we
don't owe them kindness and care when they're kept by us, but it does
mean
that I value them on a sliding scale. This house is maintained for the
comfort of the humans who live here, pets have to fit in or go.
----------
This is one of the most touching things I've ever heard a parent say
about pets. When I used to teach dog training classes
----------
Me too! :)
Pam
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[email protected]
In a message dated 4/5/2002 9:24:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
sacrifice to care for. Others I would politely stop at the door. Others I
could call the cops on.
-=-I think it's okay to take on pets impulsively if you
have a firm commitment and policy in your home not to get rid of them
once to take them on.-=-
"Intention" is better then "firm commitment," I think. Making a firm
commitment to someone or something you don't know really well is worse than
impulse. You can impulsively decide to try something, but impulsively
commiting for life isn't something I want to model for my children (or to
inflict on myself).
What if each of us were still with the first boyfriend we ever had, living in
the first house or apartment we ever independently obtained, in the same job
we ever first had, playing the first stereo we ever bought. Is it just that
we count on outliving any irritating pets we might impulsively commit to?
Beware parrots and horses (and, at my age, German Shepherds).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> This doesn't mean weI value humans on a sliding scale, too. Some I would add to our family and
> don't owe them kindness and care when they're kept by us, but it does mean
> that I value them on a sliding scale.
sacrifice to care for. Others I would politely stop at the door. Others I
could call the cops on.
-=-I think it's okay to take on pets impulsively if you
have a firm commitment and policy in your home not to get rid of them
once to take them on.-=-
"Intention" is better then "firm commitment," I think. Making a firm
commitment to someone or something you don't know really well is worse than
impulse. You can impulsively decide to try something, but impulsively
commiting for life isn't something I want to model for my children (or to
inflict on myself).
What if each of us were still with the first boyfriend we ever had, living in
the first house or apartment we ever independently obtained, in the same job
we ever first had, playing the first stereo we ever bought. Is it just that
we count on outliving any irritating pets we might impulsively commit to?
Beware parrots and horses (and, at my age, German Shepherds).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]