As our process changes
katelovessunshine
It is interesting to see how people change their point of view and change their attitudes, and just as interesting when they cling to ways or thoughts that no longer serve.
As I was turning the list messages over in my mind, thinking about the examples of prompting learning v. learning about money or multiplication and noticed the shifting of context from example to explaination. It seems that the place/age/experience created the space for either misunderstanding or an opportunity for growth.
With my children, questions are encouraged. Rather than explain, I try to show them. This has made me softer in my delivery of information because I'm open to language and bridges that can be built rather than jumping on a word or phrase and perhaps alienating or damaging a friend, supporter, co-non-school-traveler.
My husband has brain-damage from an accident, his language can be difficult and really frustrating for me. He'll insert the wrong word. Most of the time we can figure out what he meant by context but sometimes it's just... well, it is what it is... I've learned that it's better to listen to the whole of the message instead of getting hung up on particular words. I save making an issue of word for when the context isn't clear, because really we're trying to communicate not judge each other.
The following was clipped & sent for two reasons 1) I liked it and wanted to share it but 2) and more importantly, it shows that the unschooling / homeschooling / out-of-the-box people have always had to explain ~this~ is what I mean when I say ~that~. ;)
"We have to educate ourselves to know who we are. That's what I mean when I say, 'Teach the children.'" --Eddie Benton-Banai, OJIBWAY
Have a lovely day with your children, I know that's my plan...
Kate
As I was turning the list messages over in my mind, thinking about the examples of prompting learning v. learning about money or multiplication and noticed the shifting of context from example to explaination. It seems that the place/age/experience created the space for either misunderstanding or an opportunity for growth.
With my children, questions are encouraged. Rather than explain, I try to show them. This has made me softer in my delivery of information because I'm open to language and bridges that can be built rather than jumping on a word or phrase and perhaps alienating or damaging a friend, supporter, co-non-school-traveler.
My husband has brain-damage from an accident, his language can be difficult and really frustrating for me. He'll insert the wrong word. Most of the time we can figure out what he meant by context but sometimes it's just... well, it is what it is... I've learned that it's better to listen to the whole of the message instead of getting hung up on particular words. I save making an issue of word for when the context isn't clear, because really we're trying to communicate not judge each other.
The following was clipped & sent for two reasons 1) I liked it and wanted to share it but 2) and more importantly, it shows that the unschooling / homeschooling / out-of-the-box people have always had to explain ~this~ is what I mean when I say ~that~. ;)
"We have to educate ourselves to know who we are. That's what I mean when I say, 'Teach the children.'" --Eddie Benton-Banai, OJIBWAY
Have a lovely day with your children, I know that's my plan...
Kate
Sandra Dodd
-=-With my children, questions are encouraged. Rather than explain, I
try to show them. This has made me softer in my delivery of
information because I'm open to language and bridges that can be built
rather than jumping on a word or phrase and perhaps alienating or
damaging a friend, supporter, co-non-school-traveler. -=-
This sounds stilted.
It sounds like there are templates for conversations at your house,
and discussions aren't flowing naturally.
-=-"We have to educate ourselves to know who we are. That's what I
mean when I say, 'Teach the children.'" --Eddie Benton-Banai, OJIBWAY -
=-
Well....
I don't like the idea of "educate ourselves" or of educating anyone.
We don't have to educate ourselves to know who we are.
We need to feel and think and have the opportunity to make choices to
learn more about ourselves, but we ARE who we are, without educating.
And "Teach the children" isn't "educating ourselves", so that can't be
what he means by "We have to educate ourselves..."
If that speaks to you, that's fine, but it's not speaking to you about
unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
try to show them. This has made me softer in my delivery of
information because I'm open to language and bridges that can be built
rather than jumping on a word or phrase and perhaps alienating or
damaging a friend, supporter, co-non-school-traveler. -=-
This sounds stilted.
It sounds like there are templates for conversations at your house,
and discussions aren't flowing naturally.
-=-"We have to educate ourselves to know who we are. That's what I
mean when I say, 'Teach the children.'" --Eddie Benton-Banai, OJIBWAY -
=-
Well....
I don't like the idea of "educate ourselves" or of educating anyone.
We don't have to educate ourselves to know who we are.
We need to feel and think and have the opportunity to make choices to
learn more about ourselves, but we ARE who we are, without educating.
And "Teach the children" isn't "educating ourselves", so that can't be
what he means by "We have to educate ourselves..."
If that speaks to you, that's fine, but it's not speaking to you about
unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"katelovessunshine" <misskate@...> wrote:
Some people are oriented more to wholes than parts - Ray's like that. He's not logical in the sense of being able to pull together a bunch of parts into a whole. He can experience a whole and develop an understanding of how its made up of parts, though.
Some people do really well the other way 'round - they like to see that parts of things and discover or invent or envision the whole, and given a whole they start pulling it apart. The parts are fascinating! Mo's more a parts person.
Its not a black and white thing, like some people only see parts and some only wholes, the human mind is more sophisticated than that. Everyone does both to an extent, but everyone also favors one way to thinking, naturally. Some people call those differences "logical" and "intuitive" thinking, but those words are also loaded with cultural baggage that can get in the way.
Its good to know that there are differences like that from the perspecitve of radical unschoolin - our kids don't always process in the same way we do. My pair think and solve problems very differently from one another!
This list - most unschooling lists and discussions - involves a lot of looking at parts. That's not something that's going to be helpful for everyone! Some people prefer to post in a style that's more gestalt, and I bet some people like to read those kinds of posts, too.
If there seems to be too much pulling things apart here, for your (general "you") needs, you could keep looking, see what other lists are out there, or create an "Intuitive Unschooling" list and hold different kinds of discussions if you wanted. The dominent writers on any list will set the style, so invite people to come post who have a more wholistic writing style. Alternately, you might be the sort of person who does better reading essays and blogs, rather than the more q&a style of an email list or forum, so I'll take a moment to plug an unschooling site with a focus on blogs and a monthly set of essays:
http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/
There you'll see a "blog carnival" about sleep (pertinent to a recent thread) and also essays about sibling issues and atypical kids.
---Meredith
>I've learned that it's better to listen to the whole of the message instead of getting hung up on particular words.**************
Some people are oriented more to wholes than parts - Ray's like that. He's not logical in the sense of being able to pull together a bunch of parts into a whole. He can experience a whole and develop an understanding of how its made up of parts, though.
Some people do really well the other way 'round - they like to see that parts of things and discover or invent or envision the whole, and given a whole they start pulling it apart. The parts are fascinating! Mo's more a parts person.
Its not a black and white thing, like some people only see parts and some only wholes, the human mind is more sophisticated than that. Everyone does both to an extent, but everyone also favors one way to thinking, naturally. Some people call those differences "logical" and "intuitive" thinking, but those words are also loaded with cultural baggage that can get in the way.
Its good to know that there are differences like that from the perspecitve of radical unschoolin - our kids don't always process in the same way we do. My pair think and solve problems very differently from one another!
This list - most unschooling lists and discussions - involves a lot of looking at parts. That's not something that's going to be helpful for everyone! Some people prefer to post in a style that's more gestalt, and I bet some people like to read those kinds of posts, too.
If there seems to be too much pulling things apart here, for your (general "you") needs, you could keep looking, see what other lists are out there, or create an "Intuitive Unschooling" list and hold different kinds of discussions if you wanted. The dominent writers on any list will set the style, so invite people to come post who have a more wholistic writing style. Alternately, you might be the sort of person who does better reading essays and blogs, rather than the more q&a style of an email list or forum, so I'll take a moment to plug an unschooling site with a focus on blogs and a monthly set of essays:
http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/
There you'll see a "blog carnival" about sleep (pertinent to a recent thread) and also essays about sibling issues and atypical kids.
---Meredith
katelovessunshine
> This sounds stilted.If you consider kindness, curiousity and manners a template. I'd agree. But stilted, um...no, I'd disagree and my children would too. (I showed them this post. They laughed, followed by many questions.)
> It sounds like there are templates for conversations at your house,
> and discussions aren't flowing naturally.
> We don't have to educate ourselves to know who we are.Yes, there are many people who fail to develop themselves and many more who haven't a clue about who they are. But they are who they are.
> We need to feel and think and have the opportunity to make choices to
> learn more about ourselves, but we ARE who we are, without educating.
I prefer improvement. Just my choice.
katelovessunshine
> If there seems to be too much pulling things apart here, for your (general "you") needs, you could keep looking, see what other lists are out there, or create an "Intuitive Unschooling" list and hold different kinds of discussions if you wanted. The dominent writers on any list will set the style, so invite people to come post who have a more wholistic writing style. Alternately, you might be the sort of person who does better reading essays and blogs, rather than the more q&a style of an email list or forum, so I'll take a moment to plug an unschooling site with a focus on blogs and a monthly set of essays:Hi Meredith
>
> http://enjoylifeunschooling.com/
Thank you for your thoughtful post. Personally, I've found the pulling apart to come across as petty and manipulative from time to time. I was hoping that my contribution would balance and offer a different viewpoint so as not to alienate people who are new on the list. But maybe I'm wrong, I've been wrong before.
Thank you for the suggestions but I've not the time or the inclination to start such a discussion list. Sandra and Joyce do a great job of staying on top of posts. I've got too many other demands on my time and would fall far short of the monitoring involved in such a list. But I might join one. ;)
I do like this list because it makes me think about things. I don't think things out in posts but take it with me & ponder before making decisions or forming opinions.
I don't have a name for what I do. What I do has changed with time. The focus is different for each of my children because they are individuals. I believe it's my duty to guide them through to adulthood. They haven't made all the decision because they're children.But I've found that they are at the point where they just check their balance and thinkithings out with their mentor/guide/mom. Hey, I still check with my mentors/guides/elders.
I do like the philosophy that is offered here. But many of the suggestions on this list just don't work in practice for my kids. I don't do what doesn't work. I don't feel compelled to blast people for things they say have worked for them, but haven't worked for me. I don't need to make anyone wrong. I can just say to myself, well good that it worked for them and move on to something that will work for us.
Sandra and Joyce have pointed out they don't consider what I do to be unschooling. I don't know what to call what I've done all these years I can say it has worked for us and it's not school at home. Will I offend or get blasted if I call it individual learning? I understand that educating themselves got nixed.
So what do I have? What do I do? My three teens are so delightful. Life is calm, busy, interesting, musical, exciting. They like hanging out with their old mom ;) and I like hanging out with them too. We've recently moved again so we're having a great time exploring our new place. I think we're just happy.
Really, thanks for your input. I am rolling it though my thought process.
Kate
Sandra Dodd
-=-I prefer improvement. Just my choice. -=-
You don't think I'm objecting to improvement, do you? Just the use of
terms such as "educated" instead of talking in terms of learning.
Learning is what unschooling is about, not education.
-=-With my children, questions are encouraged. ...-=-
-=-This sounds stilted....
Somehow that was turned into something for you to laugh about.
To say "With my children, questions are encouraged" suggests perhaps
that that's unusual, or that "questions are encouraged" in such a way
the someone says "I encourage your questions." Somehow my point was
missed. Sorry. I'll try again.
Conversations encourage questions. Being as natural and direct and
personable with one's children as one would be with an adult friend is
a way to encourage questions in a conversational manner.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You don't think I'm objecting to improvement, do you? Just the use of
terms such as "educated" instead of talking in terms of learning.
Learning is what unschooling is about, not education.
-=-With my children, questions are encouraged. ...-=-
-=-This sounds stilted....
Somehow that was turned into something for you to laugh about.
To say "With my children, questions are encouraged" suggests perhaps
that that's unusual, or that "questions are encouraged" in such a way
the someone says "I encourage your questions." Somehow my point was
missed. Sorry. I'll try again.
Conversations encourage questions. Being as natural and direct and
personable with one's children as one would be with an adult friend is
a way to encourage questions in a conversational manner.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sandra and Joyce have pointed out they don't consider what I do to be
unschooling. I don't know what to call what I've done all these years�
I can say
it has worked for us and it's not school at home. Will I offend or get
blasted
if I call it individual learning? I understand that educating
themselves got
nixed.-=-
It's not "blasting" or being offended. It's pointing out (and it's
not personal) when something will not serve the purpose of the list:
"This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
If you don't consider what you do to be unschooling, then why call it
something different and insist on posting it anyway, feeling that you
might be "offending" or that objection is "blasting."
Probably the reason this quote wasn't useful is that it's not about
unschooling at all. It's about a tribe educating themselves and their
children about tribal ways, most likely.
"We have to educate ourselves to know who we are. That's what I mean
when I say,
'Teach the children.'" --Eddie Benton-Banai, OJIBWAY
When one quote has both "educate" AND "teach," it doesn't seem like a
great thing to bring to a list for the examination of the philosophy
of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing
examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling. I don't know what to call what I've done all these years�
I can say
it has worked for us and it's not school at home. Will I offend or get
blasted
if I call it individual learning? I understand that educating
themselves got
nixed.-=-
It's not "blasting" or being offended. It's pointing out (and it's
not personal) when something will not serve the purpose of the list:
"This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling
and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based
on the principles underlying unschooling."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
If you don't consider what you do to be unschooling, then why call it
something different and insist on posting it anyway, feeling that you
might be "offending" or that objection is "blasting."
Probably the reason this quote wasn't useful is that it's not about
unschooling at all. It's about a tribe educating themselves and their
children about tribal ways, most likely.
"We have to educate ourselves to know who we are. That's what I mean
when I say,
'Teach the children.'" --Eddie Benton-Banai, OJIBWAY
When one quote has both "educate" AND "teach," it doesn't seem like a
great thing to bring to a list for the examination of the philosophy
of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing
examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
katelovessunshine
It's about a tribe educating themselves and their
Yes, and there are times when as a group, call it family in this case, these ways are helpful; in story telling, in learning who they are in relation to those around them, in their larger history. I've seen that learning of the past creates motivation for the future. It's beautiful.
The person sharing the information, what do you call that... what word do you use for the person who brings that knowledge or information to the young or the curious? What word do you use for what they are doing?
Kate
> children about tribal ways, most likely.Hi Sandra,
>
Yes, and there are times when as a group, call it family in this case, these ways are helpful; in story telling, in learning who they are in relation to those around them, in their larger history. I've seen that learning of the past creates motivation for the future. It's beautiful.
The person sharing the information, what do you call that... what word do you use for the person who brings that knowledge or information to the young or the curious? What word do you use for what they are doing?
Kate
Schuyler
In our lives often that's just having a conversation. Sometimes Simon, my 13
year old, or Linnaea, my 10 year old, are the ones with the knowledge, the ones
sharing. It's sharing, chatting, showing off, it's being together.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: katelovessunshine <misskate@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 12 July, 2010 16:31:40
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: As our process changes
It's about a tribe educating themselves and their
Yes, and there are times when as a group, call it family in this case, these
ways are helpful; in story telling, in learning who they are in relation to
those around them, in their larger history. I've seen that learning of the past
creates motivation for the future. It's beautiful.
The person sharing the information, what do you call that... what word do you
use for the person who brings that knowledge or information to the young or the
curious? What word do you use for what they are doing?
Kate
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
year old, or Linnaea, my 10 year old, are the ones with the knowledge, the ones
sharing. It's sharing, chatting, showing off, it's being together.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: katelovessunshine <misskate@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 12 July, 2010 16:31:40
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: As our process changes
It's about a tribe educating themselves and their
> children about tribal ways, most likely.Hi Sandra,
>
Yes, and there are times when as a group, call it family in this case, these
ways are helpful; in story telling, in learning who they are in relation to
those around them, in their larger history. I've seen that learning of the past
creates motivation for the future. It's beautiful.
The person sharing the information, what do you call that... what word do you
use for the person who brings that knowledge or information to the young or the
curious? What word do you use for what they are doing?
Kate
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aldq75
-- The person sharing the information, what do you call that... what word do you use for the person who brings that knowledge or information to the young or the curious? What word do you use for what they are doing? --
If I am paying someone for a class, they are a teacher.
Otherwise, it is sharing.
Andrea Q
If I am paying someone for a class, they are a teacher.
Otherwise, it is sharing.
Andrea Q
Joyce Fetteroll
>> What word do you use for what they are doing?To help people see how learning happens by living, it's important that
> It's sharing, chatting, showing off, it's being together.
it not be seen as some action specifically done for learning. Learning
happens as a side effect of living. The important part is to focus on
being together, sharing life, supporting kids interests, shopping,
watching TV, singing, dancing, mowing the lawn.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes, and there are times when as a group, call it family in this
case, these ways are helpful; in story telling, in learning who they
are in relation to those around them, in their larger history. I've
seen that learning of the past creates motivation for the future. It's
beautiful.
-=-The person sharing the information, what do you call that... what
word do you use for the person who brings that knowledge or
information to the young or the curious? What word do you use for what
they are doing? -=-
Living with them.
Talking to them.
Answering their questions.
Showing them photos.
Taking them to visit relatives.
I call it what it is, in its small bits and parts.
Sometimes it's just telling the story of where I got a guitar, a
pair of earrings, my shoes.
It's living together in an environment in which learning is valued.
And they learn.
And that's unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
case, these ways are helpful; in story telling, in learning who they
are in relation to those around them, in their larger history. I've
seen that learning of the past creates motivation for the future. It's
beautiful.
-=-The person sharing the information, what do you call that... what
word do you use for the person who brings that knowledge or
information to the young or the curious? What word do you use for what
they are doing? -=-
Living with them.
Talking to them.
Answering their questions.
Showing them photos.
Taking them to visit relatives.
I call it what it is, in its small bits and parts.
Sometimes it's just telling the story of where I got a guitar, a
pair of earrings, my shoes.
It's living together in an environment in which learning is valued.
And they learn.
And that's unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Yes, thank you, better clarity.
What we do isn't anything bigger or bolder or more highlighted or more directed
than living life with each other. It is more than just living in proximity, but
it isn't more than enjoying each other, it isn't more than enjoying our lives
and facilitating ways to do more of the things we enjoy. Although it does
include exploring new things that may add engagement and entertainment. The
learning is a side point, it is a secondary outcome.
Schuyler
----------
it not be seen as some action specifically done for learning. Learning
happens as a side effect of living. The important part is to focus on
being together, sharing life, supporting kids interests, shopping,
watching TV, singing, dancing, mowing the lawn.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What we do isn't anything bigger or bolder or more highlighted or more directed
than living life with each other. It is more than just living in proximity, but
it isn't more than enjoying each other, it isn't more than enjoying our lives
and facilitating ways to do more of the things we enjoy. Although it does
include exploring new things that may add engagement and entertainment. The
learning is a side point, it is a secondary outcome.
Schuyler
----------
>> What word do you use for what they are doing?To help people see how learning happens by living, it's important that
> It's sharing, chatting, showing off, it's being together.
it not be seen as some action specifically done for learning. Learning
happens as a side effect of living. The important part is to focus on
being together, sharing life, supporting kids interests, shopping,
watching TV, singing, dancing, mowing the lawn.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"katelovessunshine" <misskate@...> wrote:
My dd just finished reading a work of historical fantasy fiction (Bone, the complete set in one volume). She picked one volume of series up at a coffee shop and wanted the set - and as a result my partner and I are reading it. Its not really a "children's book" per se. There's a lot of history and politics and social relationships in that book, a lot of parody and humor and word-play.
That's one snapshot of my family engaged in sharing a story, learning about history and who we are as people and how that relates to the broader world - but its not any kind of teaching or education. Its learning as a natural result of a group of people living together, sharing our interests and likes with one another.
How 'bout a friend? I share things with friends all the time - my partner, people I work with, neighbors, my kids. They share things with me. And sometimes -often! that sharing doesn't take the form or bringing or giving knowledge, but of discovering something together. I've read descriptions of Bone and it didn't sound very interesting to me. Now I'm fascinated - because my 8yo happened to pick up a copy someone had left behind.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> Yes, and there are times when as a group, call it family in this case, these ways are helpful; in story telling, in learning who they are in relation to those around them, in their larger history. I've seen that learning of the past creates motivation for the future. It's beautiful.**************
My dd just finished reading a work of historical fantasy fiction (Bone, the complete set in one volume). She picked one volume of series up at a coffee shop and wanted the set - and as a result my partner and I are reading it. Its not really a "children's book" per se. There's a lot of history and politics and social relationships in that book, a lot of parody and humor and word-play.
That's one snapshot of my family engaged in sharing a story, learning about history and who we are as people and how that relates to the broader world - but its not any kind of teaching or education. Its learning as a natural result of a group of people living together, sharing our interests and likes with one another.
>>what word do you use for the person who brings that knowledge or information to the young or the curious?*************
How 'bout a friend? I share things with friends all the time - my partner, people I work with, neighbors, my kids. They share things with me. And sometimes -often! that sharing doesn't take the form or bringing or giving knowledge, but of discovering something together. I've read descriptions of Bone and it didn't sound very interesting to me. Now I'm fascinated - because my 8yo happened to pick up a copy someone had left behind.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Sandra Dodd
-=-What we do isn't anything bigger or bolder or more highlighted or
more directed
than living life with each other. It is more than just living in
proximity, but
it isn't more than enjoying each other, it isn't more than enjoying
our lives
and facilitating ways to do more of the things we enjoy. Although it
does
include exploring new things that may add engagement and
entertainment. The
learning is a side point, it is a secondary outcome. -=-
For me, I saw learning as the tipping point. If something was chosen
over something else, it was because of the learning advantage.
In our family, learning was primary, but it wasn't very long after
starting to live that way that we saw learning everywhere.
Some families seem to have taken the "it's just living, it's not about
learning" to an extreme, and they seem embarrassed by or rejecting of
things that seem to them (or that they think might seem to others) as
"educational."
I've been privileged to spend time at Schuyler's house. They talk
about all sorts of things. It's an intellectually stimulating
environment. They're not self-conscious about talking about
anthropology, educational research, geography, history--though it's
not *because* it's those "areas of interest." It's because it had to
do with something right in front of them at that moment. They're
living in the moment, but their environment is rich.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
more directed
than living life with each other. It is more than just living in
proximity, but
it isn't more than enjoying each other, it isn't more than enjoying
our lives
and facilitating ways to do more of the things we enjoy. Although it
does
include exploring new things that may add engagement and
entertainment. The
learning is a side point, it is a secondary outcome. -=-
For me, I saw learning as the tipping point. If something was chosen
over something else, it was because of the learning advantage.
In our family, learning was primary, but it wasn't very long after
starting to live that way that we saw learning everywhere.
Some families seem to have taken the "it's just living, it's not about
learning" to an extreme, and they seem embarrassed by or rejecting of
things that seem to them (or that they think might seem to others) as
"educational."
I've been privileged to spend time at Schuyler's house. They talk
about all sorts of things. It's an intellectually stimulating
environment. They're not self-conscious about talking about
anthropology, educational research, geography, history--though it's
not *because* it's those "areas of interest." It's because it had to
do with something right in front of them at that moment. They're
living in the moment, but their environment is rich.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Not sure why people come on a list to say "we laughed" at what someone
wrote. How about if I said I laughed? How would that come across? If I
laughed at katelovessunshine's question(s)?
It doesn't exactly encourage questions on the list when people write
that they're laughing at the responses of the list owner! Is it
perhaps a barrier to further inquiry or honest discussion on the list?
I think so, and as a reader, I don't quite know how to respond to
posts that say "laughed at" ...
~Katherine
wrote. How about if I said I laughed? How would that come across? If I
laughed at katelovessunshine's question(s)?
It doesn't exactly encourage questions on the list when people write
that they're laughing at the responses of the list owner! Is it
perhaps a barrier to further inquiry or honest discussion on the list?
I think so, and as a reader, I don't quite know how to respond to
posts that say "laughed at" ...
~Katherine
On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I prefer improvement. Just my choice. -=-
>
> You don't think I'm objecting to improvement, do you? Just the use of
> terms such as "educated" instead of talking in terms of learning.
>
> Learning is what unschooling is about, not education.
>
> -=-With my children, questions are encouraged. ...-=-
> -=-This sounds stilted....
>
> Somehow that was turned into something for you to laugh about.
>
> To say "With my children, questions are encouraged" suggests perhaps
> that that's unusual, or that "questions are encouraged" in such a way
> the someone says "I encourage your questions." Somehow my point was
> missed. Sorry. I'll try again.
>
> Conversations encourage questions. Being as natural and direct and
> personable with one's children as one would be with an adult friend is
> a way to encourage questions in a conversational manner.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Not sure why people come on a list to say "we laughed" at what
someone
wrote. How about if I said I laughed? How would that come across? If I
laughed at katelovessunshine's question(s)?-=-
It's happened a dozen times over the years I've been doing this. It's
an odd (and rude) defense. And it's always "I read this to my husband
and he laughed," or "I asked my daughter if she felt deprived, and she
laughed."
I don't mind it as much as someone saying "That is ridiculous," which
means "EVERYone is laughing at that."
The odd, rude defenses of people who aren't ready go look at what
they're writing in public and what it might mean aren't going to keep
me from being available to help those who *are* ready, able and
willing to examine their relationships with their children and with
learning.
-=-It doesn't exactly encourage questions on the list when people write
that they're laughing at the responses of the list owner! -=-
It didn't bother me emotionally. I thought less of the poster, but
it's not like I remember her name. I know it bothers some people, but
I don't often even try to learn the names of new posters unless they
seem a danger to the list. I'm only writing about the ideas and the
situations. Some others tend toward remembering the number, names and
ages of each poster's children. I don't. It's not the purpose of
the list for us all to say "happy birthday!" and "How's your dog?"
-=-Is it perhaps a barrier to further inquiry or honest discussion on
the list?-=-
I think some of those involved in the discussion will think the person
was being defensive, or not really reading. But each other reader
will make a "getting warmer / getting colder" move, mentally, about
the issue being discussed. Sometimes something seemingly unrelated
can shake loose from an exchange here. Someone trying to decide about
riding lessons or horse ownership might have a mini-epiphany from a
discussion about dating or chores, because the principle at the crux
of their thinking might be the same, and everything is connected.
-=-as a reader, I don't quite know how to respond to
posts that say "laughed at" ...-=-
I'm glad you mentioned it, but I hope it didn't actually upset you.
SO MUCH writing is poured into this list... not all is equally useful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
someone
wrote. How about if I said I laughed? How would that come across? If I
laughed at katelovessunshine's question(s)?-=-
It's happened a dozen times over the years I've been doing this. It's
an odd (and rude) defense. And it's always "I read this to my husband
and he laughed," or "I asked my daughter if she felt deprived, and she
laughed."
I don't mind it as much as someone saying "That is ridiculous," which
means "EVERYone is laughing at that."
The odd, rude defenses of people who aren't ready go look at what
they're writing in public and what it might mean aren't going to keep
me from being available to help those who *are* ready, able and
willing to examine their relationships with their children and with
learning.
-=-It doesn't exactly encourage questions on the list when people write
that they're laughing at the responses of the list owner! -=-
It didn't bother me emotionally. I thought less of the poster, but
it's not like I remember her name. I know it bothers some people, but
I don't often even try to learn the names of new posters unless they
seem a danger to the list. I'm only writing about the ideas and the
situations. Some others tend toward remembering the number, names and
ages of each poster's children. I don't. It's not the purpose of
the list for us all to say "happy birthday!" and "How's your dog?"
-=-Is it perhaps a barrier to further inquiry or honest discussion on
the list?-=-
I think some of those involved in the discussion will think the person
was being defensive, or not really reading. But each other reader
will make a "getting warmer / getting colder" move, mentally, about
the issue being discussed. Sometimes something seemingly unrelated
can shake loose from an exchange here. Someone trying to decide about
riding lessons or horse ownership might have a mini-epiphany from a
discussion about dating or chores, because the principle at the crux
of their thinking might be the same, and everything is connected.
-=-as a reader, I don't quite know how to respond to
posts that say "laughed at" ...-=-
I'm glad you mentioned it, but I hope it didn't actually upset you.
SO MUCH writing is poured into this list... not all is equally useful.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Yep, that was my emotional reaction. I'm sure that people *do* laugh
at some things written but don't write in to announce what happened. I
see it as a lame defense too ... a way to tell everyone on the list at
once to knock it off. It's beside that person's point and probably not
very useful to say "I don't like it." I'm responding in the same vein
actually :) and it probably isn't so useful as conversation goes.
~Katherine
at some things written but don't write in to announce what happened. I
see it as a lame defense too ... a way to tell everyone on the list at
once to knock it off. It's beside that person's point and probably not
very useful to say "I don't like it." I'm responding in the same vein
actually :) and it probably isn't so useful as conversation goes.
~Katherine
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 8:33 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-Not sure why people come on a list to say "we laughed" at what
> someone
> wrote. How about if I said I laughed? How would that come across? If I
> laughed at katelovessunshine's question(s)?-=-
>
> It's happened a dozen times over the years I've been doing this. It's
> an odd (and rude) defense. And it's always "I read this to my husband
> and he laughed," or "I asked my daughter if she felt deprived, and she
> laughed."
>
> I don't mind it as much as someone saying "That is ridiculous," which
> means "EVERYone is laughing at that."
>
> The odd, rude defenses of people who aren't ready go look at what
> they're writing in public and what it might mean aren't going to keep
> me from being available to help those who *are* ready, able and
> willing to examine their relationships with their children and with
> learning.
>
> -=-It doesn't exactly encourage questions on the list when people write
> that they're laughing at the responses of the list owner! -=-
>
> It didn't bother me emotionally. I thought less of the poster, but
> it's not like I remember her name. I know it bothers some people, but
> I don't often even try to learn the names of new posters unless they
> seem a danger to the list. I'm only writing about the ideas and the
> situations. Some others tend toward remembering the number, names and
> ages of each poster's children. I don't. It's not the purpose of
> the list for us all to say "happy birthday!" and "How's your dog?"
>
> -=-Is it perhaps a barrier to further inquiry or honest discussion on
> the list?-=-
>
> I think some of those involved in the discussion will think the person
> was being defensive, or not really reading. But each other reader
> will make a "getting warmer / getting colder" move, mentally, about
> the issue being discussed. Sometimes something seemingly unrelated
> can shake loose from an exchange here. Someone trying to decide about
> riding lessons or horse ownership might have a mini-epiphany from a
> discussion about dating or chores, because the principle at the crux
> of their thinking might be the same, and everything is connected.
>
> -=-as a reader, I don't quite know how to respond to
> posts that say "laughed at" ...-=-
>
> I'm glad you mentioned it, but I hope it didn't actually upset you.
> SO MUCH writing is poured into this list... not all is equally useful.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Jenny Cyphers
***Yep, that was my emotional reaction. I'm sure that people *do* laugh
at some things written but don't write in to announce what happened. I
see it as a lame defense too ... a way to tell everyone on the list at
once to knock it off. ***
Laughing about something that someone is saying, in this context, IS a defensive
technique. If what someone says isn't true, why laugh about it? Either it is
or isn't true, but somewhere in someone's written account something was
misrepresented to such an extent that either they don't know what they are
saying or what they are saying isn't entirely what they mean to be saying. That
is why writing clearly is so important in a written forum. So, IF you are going
to write, be aware that your audience may interpret what you say to mean
something you didn't intend. If that's the case, look carefully at what you've
written to see where that confusion came from and address it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
at some things written but don't write in to announce what happened. I
see it as a lame defense too ... a way to tell everyone on the list at
once to knock it off. ***
Laughing about something that someone is saying, in this context, IS a defensive
technique. If what someone says isn't true, why laugh about it? Either it is
or isn't true, but somewhere in someone's written account something was
misrepresented to such an extent that either they don't know what they are
saying or what they are saying isn't entirely what they mean to be saying. That
is why writing clearly is so important in a written forum. So, IF you are going
to write, be aware that your audience may interpret what you say to mean
something you didn't intend. If that's the case, look carefully at what you've
written to see where that confusion came from and address it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]