Re: our stupid ageist rules
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/8/2002 6:50:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
But I won't go around and around again on this. Been there; wasted my breath
already.
I was the HSC Board member responsible for the Sacramento conference last
year.
We've been doing this for 11 years and have tried a number of different
approaches. We now state officially that kids should be accompanied by a
responsible adult at all times. Then we leave it up to the responsible ADULTS
to decide what that means in their own individual case. Some kids are fine on
their own. Maybe with your kid, being somewhere in the hotel is enough
"accompaniment." Most of us with younger children have walked them to
workshops, seen them settled in, go to our own workshops, go back to pick
them up immediately at the end of their workshop. There is no problem with
this, especially if you mention which workshop you'll be in to one of the
adults who IS staying around, just in case your child needs you, and also
make sure the child knows where to find you. If your child isn't capable of
remembering where you said you'd be, they probably ought not to be out and
about in the hotel all on their own. Most of us meet other parents there,
too, and if we do have kids who need an adult to be closer, we trade off
hanging around nearby. Or, if a kid wants to go to a workshop that is likely
to be difficult for them on their own - say a 5 yo wants to go to a
bookmaking workshop that is aimed more at 10 to 12 yo's - then an adult
really ought to go IN with them to be there to help their own child so that
the child isn't frustrated. The workshop presenters will always do their
best, but if they have a lot of kids, one young kid may not get the personal
attention they might need unless they have their own adult with them. Again,
parents have to use their judgement, but if there is a problem, we can always
remind them that we already said THEY are responsible for their child.
When I did my cooperative games workshop, I had a couple of young children
there - no adults in sight. They played for a while and then ran off. I was
not in a position to follow them and make sure they were okay - I was busy
running a workshop. I don't know if that was okay with the parents - I don't
know if the parents told the kids to STAY in my workshop or if they told the
kids they could just leave and go run around the hotel on their own - or what
they may have told the kids. BUT if the parents came to me and complained
that I'd LET them run off on their own, I'd have reminded them that it was
THEIR responsibility to keep track of them, not mine.
Also, because we say that kids must be accompanied by a responsible adult, it
gives us the ability to deal with it easily when there is a real problem with
a truly disruptive kid by simply telling the parents that they must stay with
the child.
Nobody polices this. Nobody even WANTS every single kid to have an adult with
them - there isn't room in the workshop rooms. We hope it means there will be
some extra adults at all the kids workshops - so that the workshop presenter
has some help. Also, one adult can be responsible for a number of kids - even
the young kids don't have to have their own parent with them all the time.
There are many opportunities to meet other parents and make trade
arrangements. And, although I've heard the argument that you may not want to
make a "stranger" responsible for your child -- and I can understand that --
I fail to understand why you'd think it was safer to let the child run around
the hotel all alone.
At the cooperative games workshop last year I had a big group of kids with no
other adults. One of the kids stepped on a bee and was stung on the bottom of
her foot. I got lucky and the children's program coordinator just HAPPENED to
walk by right then and she took the girl to get treated. Otherwise I'd have
had to cancel the rest of the workshop to take care of her. We also hope that
it means people will realize that they remain responsible for their own kids
- we don't sign them in and out, we don't keep them in the room when the
workshop is over - waiting for their parents - we don't offer any kind of
babysitting service. We've DONE that in the past - it hasn't worked out well
at all.
The hotel is lots of buildings all spread out over a wide area - it is open
to the public and you have to cross parking lots to get from one workshop to
another and there is a swimming pool and a big lake right in the middle of
everything. The conference must be very clear that we are not taking
responsibility for the children. You might not realize what poor judgement
some people use. Last year someone sent a 2 year old to go around from one
workshop to another with an older sibling - an 11 yo. The older sibling got
interested in something and the 2 yo disappeared. This is not at all a place
that is safe for a 2 yo to be wandering around on their own.
My kids all go all over and to all the workshops totally on their own. My
youngest is now 11. When she was littler, I made sure someone walked her to
and from each workshop - either myself or another adult. My kids are easy to
get along with, comfortable asking someone for help if they need it, not
disruptive in a workshop or likely to be destructive to property or annoying
to other conference attendees, and they are extremely sensible about parking
lots, swimming pools, and lakes. They can go around on their own and I can be
confident that nobody is going to complain or have a problem with it. IF they
did - if my kids were causing problems - the conference coordinator would be
able to tell me that I'm supposed to make sure they are accompanied by a
responsible adult and that would be that.
And the "stupid ageist rules" that she is talking about are that the TEENS
have some workshops - an opening and closing session - that are for teens
only. There are around 150 teens and the room can barely hold them all. Space
is a major factor in many decisions - there is a need to try to spread
attendees out among all the workshops going on at the same time and not have
them all try to crowd into just one or two of the workshops. For another,
they are doing very "teen" types of things in some of the teen workshops -
these aren't arts and crafts workshops - there are serious discussion
sessions about teen experiences and feelings. Many workshops are open to kids
of all ages - including teens, children, and adults.
The children's workshops have recommended ages - not because kids of other
ages are not allowed - any age kids are allowed at any children's workshop.
This information didn't used to be included in the conference program but was
REQUESTED by conference attendees - so that they could have some idea of the
age range the workshop was aimed at - to help the kids in deciding which
workshops they wanted to attend because there are so many to choose from and
it is HARD to make those choices.
I know Holly and she'll be just fine.
--pamS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> << I went around and around with the HSC people on their stupidSince I'm one of the HSC people with the stupid ageist rules, I'll respond.
> ageist rules and finally decided it wasn't worth it until Cacie was a
> teen and was "allowed" to actually walk from one place to another
> unescorted - >>
>
> What are the rules about kids for the Sacramento deal? I've been planning
> to
> take Holly with me to Sacramento this year, but she's only ten, and if that
>
> means she has to be with an adult all the time I'd rather leave her home.
But I won't go around and around again on this. Been there; wasted my breath
already.
I was the HSC Board member responsible for the Sacramento conference last
year.
We've been doing this for 11 years and have tried a number of different
approaches. We now state officially that kids should be accompanied by a
responsible adult at all times. Then we leave it up to the responsible ADULTS
to decide what that means in their own individual case. Some kids are fine on
their own. Maybe with your kid, being somewhere in the hotel is enough
"accompaniment." Most of us with younger children have walked them to
workshops, seen them settled in, go to our own workshops, go back to pick
them up immediately at the end of their workshop. There is no problem with
this, especially if you mention which workshop you'll be in to one of the
adults who IS staying around, just in case your child needs you, and also
make sure the child knows where to find you. If your child isn't capable of
remembering where you said you'd be, they probably ought not to be out and
about in the hotel all on their own. Most of us meet other parents there,
too, and if we do have kids who need an adult to be closer, we trade off
hanging around nearby. Or, if a kid wants to go to a workshop that is likely
to be difficult for them on their own - say a 5 yo wants to go to a
bookmaking workshop that is aimed more at 10 to 12 yo's - then an adult
really ought to go IN with them to be there to help their own child so that
the child isn't frustrated. The workshop presenters will always do their
best, but if they have a lot of kids, one young kid may not get the personal
attention they might need unless they have their own adult with them. Again,
parents have to use their judgement, but if there is a problem, we can always
remind them that we already said THEY are responsible for their child.
When I did my cooperative games workshop, I had a couple of young children
there - no adults in sight. They played for a while and then ran off. I was
not in a position to follow them and make sure they were okay - I was busy
running a workshop. I don't know if that was okay with the parents - I don't
know if the parents told the kids to STAY in my workshop or if they told the
kids they could just leave and go run around the hotel on their own - or what
they may have told the kids. BUT if the parents came to me and complained
that I'd LET them run off on their own, I'd have reminded them that it was
THEIR responsibility to keep track of them, not mine.
Also, because we say that kids must be accompanied by a responsible adult, it
gives us the ability to deal with it easily when there is a real problem with
a truly disruptive kid by simply telling the parents that they must stay with
the child.
Nobody polices this. Nobody even WANTS every single kid to have an adult with
them - there isn't room in the workshop rooms. We hope it means there will be
some extra adults at all the kids workshops - so that the workshop presenter
has some help. Also, one adult can be responsible for a number of kids - even
the young kids don't have to have their own parent with them all the time.
There are many opportunities to meet other parents and make trade
arrangements. And, although I've heard the argument that you may not want to
make a "stranger" responsible for your child -- and I can understand that --
I fail to understand why you'd think it was safer to let the child run around
the hotel all alone.
At the cooperative games workshop last year I had a big group of kids with no
other adults. One of the kids stepped on a bee and was stung on the bottom of
her foot. I got lucky and the children's program coordinator just HAPPENED to
walk by right then and she took the girl to get treated. Otherwise I'd have
had to cancel the rest of the workshop to take care of her. We also hope that
it means people will realize that they remain responsible for their own kids
- we don't sign them in and out, we don't keep them in the room when the
workshop is over - waiting for their parents - we don't offer any kind of
babysitting service. We've DONE that in the past - it hasn't worked out well
at all.
The hotel is lots of buildings all spread out over a wide area - it is open
to the public and you have to cross parking lots to get from one workshop to
another and there is a swimming pool and a big lake right in the middle of
everything. The conference must be very clear that we are not taking
responsibility for the children. You might not realize what poor judgement
some people use. Last year someone sent a 2 year old to go around from one
workshop to another with an older sibling - an 11 yo. The older sibling got
interested in something and the 2 yo disappeared. This is not at all a place
that is safe for a 2 yo to be wandering around on their own.
My kids all go all over and to all the workshops totally on their own. My
youngest is now 11. When she was littler, I made sure someone walked her to
and from each workshop - either myself or another adult. My kids are easy to
get along with, comfortable asking someone for help if they need it, not
disruptive in a workshop or likely to be destructive to property or annoying
to other conference attendees, and they are extremely sensible about parking
lots, swimming pools, and lakes. They can go around on their own and I can be
confident that nobody is going to complain or have a problem with it. IF they
did - if my kids were causing problems - the conference coordinator would be
able to tell me that I'm supposed to make sure they are accompanied by a
responsible adult and that would be that.
And the "stupid ageist rules" that she is talking about are that the TEENS
have some workshops - an opening and closing session - that are for teens
only. There are around 150 teens and the room can barely hold them all. Space
is a major factor in many decisions - there is a need to try to spread
attendees out among all the workshops going on at the same time and not have
them all try to crowd into just one or two of the workshops. For another,
they are doing very "teen" types of things in some of the teen workshops -
these aren't arts and crafts workshops - there are serious discussion
sessions about teen experiences and feelings. Many workshops are open to kids
of all ages - including teens, children, and adults.
The children's workshops have recommended ages - not because kids of other
ages are not allowed - any age kids are allowed at any children's workshop.
This information didn't used to be included in the conference program but was
REQUESTED by conference attendees - so that they could have some idea of the
age range the workshop was aimed at - to help the kids in deciding which
workshops they wanted to attend because there are so many to choose from and
it is HARD to make those choices.
I know Holly and she'll be just fine.
--pamS
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 00:58:04 EST PSoroosh@... writes:
on the HSC list, but it may have been at a northern California HSC
get-together we went to. Nope (checking archives for June 11 and 12 of
2001), it was on the list, and all of the official HCS people who posted
agreed that each child needed to have a responsible adult with them at
each workshop they attended. In support of this, an example was given of
two children who were dropped off and not picked up at the end of a
workshop. It was suggested that people (even people posting who had
responsible 9 and 11 year old kids) bring a designated sitter to
accompany he kids to workshops. No one said anything about your
individual child being responsible enough to do anything independently,
unless they had hit the magic age of 13. So if things have changed,
that's wonderful, but the message last year was different.
in, it was (of course) the theater workshop. There was no theater
workshop offered for "kids". At that time she'd already participated in
theater groups with teens, and was (and still is) passionate about All
Things Theater, and a friend who was a teen was planning to go to that
workshop and they wanted to go together....
I am sorry that I posted without thinking that some of the same people
from that discussion were here (clearly I rarely look at names). I would
have, and should have, phrased it differently. I do still have strong
feelings about the whole issue.
Dar
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> Most of us with younger children have walked them topick
> workshops, seen them settled in, go to our own workshops, go back to
> them up immediately at the end of their workshop. There is noOkay, I was specifically told that this was *not* okay. It was probably
> problem with this,
on the HSC list, but it may have been at a northern California HSC
get-together we went to. Nope (checking archives for June 11 and 12 of
2001), it was on the list, and all of the official HCS people who posted
agreed that each child needed to have a responsible adult with them at
each workshop they attended. In support of this, an example was given of
two children who were dropped off and not picked up at the end of a
workshop. It was suggested that people (even people posting who had
responsible 9 and 11 year old kids) bring a designated sitter to
accompany he kids to workshops. No one said anything about your
individual child being responsible enough to do anything independently,
unless they had hit the magic age of 13. So if things have changed,
that's wonderful, but the message last year was different.
> And the "stupid ageist rules" that she is talking about are that thefor
> TEENS have some workshops - an opening and closing session - that are
> teens only.Actually, no, it wasn't the opening or closing session she was interested
in, it was (of course) the theater workshop. There was no theater
workshop offered for "kids". At that time she'd already participated in
theater groups with teens, and was (and still is) passionate about All
Things Theater, and a friend who was a teen was planning to go to that
workshop and they wanted to go together....
I am sorry that I posted without thinking that some of the same people
from that discussion were here (clearly I rarely look at names). I would
have, and should have, phrased it differently. I do still have strong
feelings about the whole issue.
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
moonmeghan
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., PSoroosh@a... wrote:
sure between the walkie talkies and workshops we'll be able to
work it out. I hope!
Meghan
> Since I'm one of the HSC people with the stupid ageist rules,I'll respond.
> But I won't go around and around again on this. Been there;wasted my breath
> already.conference last
>
> I was the HSC Board member responsible for the Sacramento
> year.Most of us with younger children have walked them to
>
> workshops, seen them settled in, go to our own workshops, goback to pick
> them up immediately at the end of their workshop. There is noproblem with
> this, especially if you mention which workshop you'll be in toone of the
> adults who IS staying around, just in case your child needsyou, and also
> make sure the child knows where to find you.have an adult with
>
> Nobody polices this. Nobody even WANTS every single kid to
> them - there isn't room in the workshop rooms.I'm now feeling a bit more optimistic about this. Thanks Pam. I'm
> --pamS
>
sure between the walkie talkies and workshops we'll be able to
work it out. I hope!
Meghan
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/11/02 9:44:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
moonmeghan@... writes:
<< >
I'm now feeling a bit more optimistic about this. Thanks Pam. I'm
sure between the walkie talkies and workshops we'll be able to
work it out. I hope! >>
If you go with a plan it should work out for you. I went with lots of
back up including a husband, but even if he wasn't there, I had
friends and a teen/young adult friend whom I paid to watch my
kids. I had every intention of switching off with her, but she
was perfectly fine taking the kids here and there, letting them
meet up with their friends, we would pick up a spare child or
two and I got to catch a lot of workshops. Our family had such
a great time, we are all looking forward to going again. If would
be great if you could make arrangements or meet up with some
folks to trade off, "I'll take the kids during this session, you do the
next" and so on. And if all else fails you can always purchase tapes
of the sessions.
Kathy
moonmeghan@... writes:
<< >
I'm now feeling a bit more optimistic about this. Thanks Pam. I'm
sure between the walkie talkies and workshops we'll be able to
work it out. I hope! >>
If you go with a plan it should work out for you. I went with lots of
back up including a husband, but even if he wasn't there, I had
friends and a teen/young adult friend whom I paid to watch my
kids. I had every intention of switching off with her, but she
was perfectly fine taking the kids here and there, letting them
meet up with their friends, we would pick up a spare child or
two and I got to catch a lot of workshops. Our family had such
a great time, we are all looking forward to going again. If would
be great if you could make arrangements or meet up with some
folks to trade off, "I'll take the kids during this session, you do the
next" and so on. And if all else fails you can always purchase tapes
of the sessions.
Kathy
moonmeghan
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Natrlmama@a... wrote:
feeling more and more positive about the conference now. I'm all
excited about it again. Thanks.
Meghan
> If you go with a plan it should work out for you. I went with lotsof
> back up including a husband, but even if he wasn't there, I hadsome
> friends and a teen/young adult friend whom I paid to watch my
> kids. I had every intention of switching off with her, but she
> was perfectly fine taking the kids here and there, letting them
> meet up with their friends, we would pick up a spare child or
> two and I got to catch a lot of workshops. Our family had such
> a great time, we are all looking forward to going again. If would
> be great if you could make arrangements or meet up with
> folks to trade off, "I'll take the kids during this session, you dothe
> next" and so on. And if all else fails you can always purchasetapes
> of the sessions.Apparently a friend or two of mine is going to be going also. I'm
>
> Kathy
feeling more and more positive about the conference now. I'm all
excited about it again. Thanks.
Meghan