Mary Hickman

Hi all,

I'm certain I did not ask my question with enough detail. Let's see. My kids
do want to do the craft I have started for myself. For little guy 5 it was
gluing sticks onto cans later to be painted. He hated the glue feeling,
hated the idea that I could put them on after he painted the sticks. Hated
that his fingers are small. Every thing I said made his screaming louder. He
did want to do the activity. He set a barrier of not liking to get his hands
sticky, so he really could not do the activity. I tried stating how
frustrating it must be. How dissapointeed he was for not being able to do it
the way he wanted to. I showed him I was sticky. We talked about washing his
hands after. His older sister was finding the craft very satisfying and
maybe this plays into it. He is feeling inferior. He did sob a ton about
wanting to be bigger. He screamed, flipped onto the floor, threatened to
turn the table over and then sobbed in his room. Nothing comforted him. He
is showing perfectionist attributes and maybe this is it. I am not ever
perfect, so it is hard for me to relate. I'm asking for coping skills when
the kids flood due to frustrations. My oldest, 7 has a similar tendancy. We
were weaving paper hearts. She wanted to make one. I showed her. She will
barely look at what I am doing, expect to be able to do it easily, then
crumble to tears without really giving herself a fair shot at the project.
These are the types of real challenges. So when children scream before they
have tried a little bit what can you do to help them calm and then try again
hopefully.

The pj's and the getting their own dishes, are issues I know are generated
from "mom I need something from you so help me do these things". I have 3
kids, all very close in age. Baby is 2 and usually gets her needs met first.
A very tired cranky hubby in the pm. Helping to put pj's on is real help for
the family. Jumping up and down on the bed screaming I can't is wearing out
our tired nerves. Riley does know how to open a drawer. He can dress
himself. Riley wants to be in control of the situation. I do find I
generally help my little guy. I like to do the jammies together. Hubby on
the other hand feels if he can do it he should do it. So, when kids are
capable of a skill but refuse to do it for some reason, what have others
done to help show the children they can do it and it feels good to be
capable. Am I more clear now?

Maybe my kids tend to flood way more than others so I'm stuck in trying to
surround them with skills to help them cope. Mine fight with each other. Do
not want to help me with any mundane chore, create messes on top of messes,
very intricate detailed messes with lots of mixed lego parts and train sets
and contraptions. They scream when they get frustrated. The yell not to help
them then rip their project up and stomp out of the room. When we have lots
of these types of experiences I wonder are we really thriving at home. This
is the hard part for me at home. How can they be so frustrated so much of
the time. We give them so much freedom and they throw us a ton of garbage
back it seems. Any way. I'm tired, thought I would try to generate more
solutions for a chronic problem that gets in our way of an enriching life.

Mary H.

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homeschoolmd

I just have a few thoughts to help *you* problem solve.

Is it possible that your children think you *value* being good at
things? They need to feel you value their uniqueness and how special
they are.

You did mention that your daughter was in a performing program - I
think singing. I'm sure she gets a lot of attention for how good she
is. This can cause some problems in the family because your children
are so young and haven't had time to feel good about just being who
they are. They may see how much you value your daughters performing
and be trying to get the same attention but fall short and feel
frustrated.

You said you sing her routine because you enjoy it. Is there
anything your other children do that you could give as much attention
to.

The other thought is to stop taking the initiative with your
daughters practice. She is very young. What if she just did it when
she felt like it - on her own? Sure she may not be as good but does
that really matter?

>He is showing perfectionist attributes and maybe this is it.

I read somewhere that perfectionism is a learned trait. Of course
this source could be way off but it is worth thinking about where
these tendencies are being picked up. Is your dh a perfectionist?

> A very tired cranky hubby in the pm.

This is a difficult situation. Sometimes I feel I have to soften the
blow for my kids when dh yells at them. He will never tell them how
he is feeling about something they are doing and ask for some input
from them. He just expects them to *behave* - whatever that means.
It certainly does not help children feel like love is unconditional
or that they are respected.

>So, when kids are capable of a skill but refuse to do it for some
>reason, what have others done to help show the children they can do
>it and it feels good to be capable.

Help the kids get dressed or any other life skill for as long as they
want. Do it with them, not for them. Take them by the hand and say,
let's go get your pj's out of the drawer. Do you want to put the top
or bottom on first. OK here's the bottom. Maybe they will put on
the bottoms by themselves, then hand them the top. Don't say - see I
knew you could do it. Don't say - you're such a big boy for putting
on your pj's. Give him a hug and say - great, now do you want me to
read you a story or whatever. This is an easy way to give them
attention and they don't need to master getting dressed to feel
capable. They will feel capable when they master the things they feel
are important - you don't know what those things are yet.

After you do this for a while, occasionally you could say you were
really busy and how about they get dressed themselves, it would
really help mommy out. This could make them feel good.

It really sounds like your kids are competing with each other for
your praise and attention.

A day or so after my daughters had a fight which ended in one of them
being punished(this was back in the days of our using punishments to
control our kids) the fighting was escalating. I asked them what was
going on and Virginia (8 at the time) was able to tell me that when I
punished her a few days ago, it made her feel like I loved Allison
more and that was what was causing the fighting. That was a real eye
opener.

Now a days the only time my kids fight is when they need help finding
a solution to their differences.

I think the book by T. Berry Brazelton "The Irreducible Needs of
Children" would be a good one for you to read.

I hope this helps a little.

Pat

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/21/02 12:41:03 AM, mfhick@... writes:

<< So, when kids are capable of a skill but refuse to do it for some reason,
what have others done to help show the children they can do it and it feels
good to be
capable. Am I more clear now?>>

I know no way of saying "you can do it" to a child who wants me to help (or
do it) without it being at the same time "I am not going to help you." If
kids are needy, they're needy. Resisting makes them more needy.

I hated anything weird on my hands (mud, paint, glue) when I was little, so I
can relate to that feeling. Maybe (and of course any of these things could
be missing the mark) he wants to be with you and do something with you but
NOT what you're doing. Maybe that's a craft to do when he's asleep, gone, or
older.

Holly was a screamer, and has a painfully high-pitched voice. She didn't get
the same leeway she would have gotten if she was talking when she was making
a noise that made people's entire nervous systems go on the painful alert.
I've taken her out of rooms and told her she could NOT scream like that, but
needed to talk, and left her where she was until I could physically recover.

Against tradition, which says children should NOT have their way, and they
need to learn to take no for an answer, I found that she was never "screaming
for nothing." And the incidents were worst when she was being ignored or
told to wait, wait, later...

It seems to me that the more kids are catered to, the less catering they need
as they get older. I remember thinking my friend Chris was spoiled (meaning
ruined for life, in my thinking) because when he was a teen and in college
his mom still did his laundry totally, and put it in his drawer, and made his
bed. But I was probably just jealous. And at the same time he never ever
missed a social obligation involving his family, and he would lovingly wash
and wax his mom's car. He didn't leave home until he was over 21. But he
still loves his mom sweetly, and he took GREAT care of his own apartment (now
house), better than I ever have or will. I was wrong.

And I know more families where the parents pressed their children to be
independent, not to be needy, and those kids are my age and still needy.

There's nothing in my personal experience or observation to support pressing
kids to get their own spoon and bowl if they really want help.

One day Marty told me that the food tasted better when I got it for him. He
was twelve, I think. He can and usually does get his own food, but that day
he wanted me to make him something. And as there was love instead of hurt or
resentment, it probably DID taste better.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/21/02 7:26:08 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< I read somewhere that perfectionism is a learned trait. >>

I know my two kids are not a scientific example, but my experience of them
makes it hard for me to think that statement is true. Zoe will try anything,
loves most things, and will keep on doing them no matter how good she is.
Quinn is reluctant to do anything new, hates it if he's not good right away,
and then won't do it again until he can be. Guess which one is the later
reader? <g>.

Paula

Jorgen & Ann

.So when children scream before they
>have tried a little bit what can you do to help them calm and then try again
>hopefully.

Crafts=expected result=frustration city. Often. Just as you described.
Freeform art and crafts work better around here, and only if they want to
do it. They initiate it, or they may join in if I'm doing something. If I
want to do something I need to concentrate on or I think will be a problem
for them (based on past experience) I wait and do it when they're asleep.

Sewing may just mean using a needle and thread to make a giant globby ball
of fabric. Crafting with popsicle sticks may mean gluing them into a solid
mass. That makes kids happy at a certain time. Happy is important. "
Completing something" only happens if it's important to them. There may be
gaps of weeks or months between attempts. This stuff is work for them, not
just doing something for relaxation like it often is for adults. One of my
kids has done maybe 2 craft projects in his life, his choice. He is not
unfulfilled. He now draws, builds models, takes things apart, makes
inventions. These things are work to him. He gets frustrated, he abandons
projects, he completes projects.

BTW, if you are talking weaving paper hearts from 2 pieces of paper (the
Danish heart thingies), I was showing adults how to do that in December. I
had to put my hands on theirs to guide them in some cases, they were having
so much trouble. Just because something is a "craft" does not mean it is
easy!


So, when kids are
>capable of a skill but refuse to do it for some reason, what have others
>done to help show the children they can do it and it feels good to be
>capable. Am I more clear now?

I don't, because they aren't capable until they are all the way ready to do
something. Even if they are, why not do something to help them if they ask?
Would you do it for a friend? What are they really asking for?

I try to go around the problem if it's getting me down. I am a morning
person and I am usually alone with kids in evening because of hubby's
schedule so I'm wiped out at night. I used to prep for evening early if I
could, like laying the clothes out ahead of time, when everyone is not so
tired. Or sleep in the day's clothes and do baths in am. Often I would
dress them in long johns with jumper/pants over during the day, then they
were already ready for bed!

> Do
>not want to help me with any mundane chore, create messes on top of messes,
>very intricate detailed messes with lots of mixed lego parts and train sets
>and contraptions.

Mundane chores may seem mundane to them if they are to you. Kids pick up on
your mindset. Working together and being invited to do the fun stuff, like
actually cooking, makes a difference around here. If toys are all mixed up,
can you just put them away in a jumble in a box until you all have the
energy to sort? Housework doesn't have to be perfect, just neat enough and
out of sight so you don't feel unbalanced.

If you look at these things and search for ways to change your expectations
and reduce *your* stress, you may find some of the kids'
frustrations/angers easing.

Ann

Tia Leschke

>
>
>I'm certain I did not ask my question with enough detail. Let's see. My kids
>do want to do the craft I have started for myself. For little guy 5 it was
>gluing sticks onto cans later to be painted. He hated the glue feeling,
>hated the idea that I could put them on after he painted the sticks. Hated
>that his fingers are small.

Ok, you're sure they want to do *that* craft at that time and they aren't
doing it just for the time with you. Maybe you and your son could approach
it as a craft that you're making together. He can do the parts he likes
and you can do the parts he doesn't like. You aren't *helping* him do
*his* craft. You're doing a craft together. Does that make sense?

>My oldest, 7 has a similar tendancy. We
>were weaving paper hearts. She wanted to make one. I showed her. She will
>barely look at what I am doing, expect to be able to do it easily, then
>crumble to tears without really giving herself a fair shot at the project.

When you're showing her how to do something, could you make a point of
noticing the parts you think she might find hard *at first*? Or maybe you
could just remember having had a lot of trouble doing this part or that
part as you're showing her how? The idea is to help her see that most
people have trouble with it at first.

>These are the types of real challenges. So when children scream before they
>have tried a little bit what can you do to help them calm and then try again
>hopefully.

I suspect you're going to have to be proactive. Instead of waiting until
they get frustrated and start screaming, you're going to have to help them
to not get frustrated in the first place. Don't know if any of my
suggestions will help with your kids.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

>
>When I was a kid in school and we did a craft with elmer's glue, I used to
>have the greatest fun covering my entire hand (palm side) with a layer of
>glue. Then I continued to hold my hand open and blow on it to help the glue
>dry. In a short while, the glue would be sufficiently dry and then I got the
>greatest pleasure from peeling it off my hand. I thought it was neat that I
>had a hand-print complete with all the lines and markings of my hands. Come
>to think of it, I haven't done this since I was in about 6th or 7th grade.
>Maybe I'll do it now and show it to my kids....

I used to do the same thing with melted wax. You have to wait until it's a
little bit cool but still liquid.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Karin

>He hated the glue feeling,
> hated the idea that I could put them on after he painted the sticks. Hated
> that his fingers are small. Every thing I said made his screaming louder.
He
> did want to do the activity. He set a barrier of not liking to get his
hands
> sticky, so he really could not do the activity. I tried stating how
> frustrating it must be. How dissapointeed he was for not being able to do
it
> the way he wanted to. I showed him I was sticky. We talked about washing
his
> hands after.



This is not an answer to your frustrating problem, but it reminded me about
something.
When I was a kid in school and we did a craft with elmer's glue, I used to
have the greatest fun covering my entire hand (palm side) with a layer of
glue. Then I continued to hold my hand open and blow on it to help the glue
dry. In a short while, the glue would be sufficiently dry and then I got the
greatest pleasure from peeling it off my hand. I thought it was neat that I
had a hand-print complete with all the lines and markings of my hands. Come
to think of it, I haven't done this since I was in about 6th or 7th grade.
Maybe I'll do it now and show it to my kids....

Karin

[email protected]

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:39:23 -0800 "Mary Hickman" <mfhick@...>
writes:
> I'm certain I did not ask my question with enough detail. Let's see.
My kids
> do want to do the craft I have started for myself.

So, you're gluing popsicle sticks to cans because that's a craft you
yourself really enjoy doing?

I'm finding that right now, at just-turned-nine, Cacie is just starting
to be able to do more "follow the directions" types of projects and enjoy
them. Sometimes. At 7 it would have been a struggle, and it was the few
times it came up. What helped is that she felt okay about handing it to
me and asking me to do a part. She still does that sometimes.

At 5, I can't even imagine trying anything with formal directions. Five
is a nice age for "Here are some pipe cleaners, some sequins, some foam
pieces, some paper, some markers" and neat things often happen. Actually,
nine is good for that, too ;-)

Help is a touchy issue sometimes. Asking for help can feel like admitting
that you're not good enough, that you failed. It sounds like you want
your children to ask for and accept more help with craft projects, but
ask for less help with routine activities like dressing. Maybe they feel
safer asking for help on something they know they really are competent at
doing, just to make sure it's there.

Dar




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Carol & Mac

Me tooooo! It tastes much better when someone else in the family cooks
dinner for me! And I'm fifty!

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
>One day Marty told me that the food tasted better when I got it for him. He
>was twelve, I think. He can and usually does get his own food, but that day
>he wanted me to make him something. And as there was love instead of hurt or
>resentment, it probably DID taste better.
>
But then, as well as the love thing, there's also the fact that I am a
lazy, uninspired cook <g> I just can't get fun out of something that
takes all that time, but is gone in minutes, leaving a whole lot more
work of cleaning up. I dream of the days of pills that will fulfil
dietary requirements - other than those for chocolate, and brie cheese
with crackers :-)

Carol

Karin

>
>When I was a kid in school and we did a craft with elmer's glue, I used to
>have the greatest fun covering my entire hand (palm side) with a layer of
>glue. Then I continued to hold my hand open and blow on it to help the glue
>dry. In a short while, the glue would be sufficiently dry and then I got the
>greatest pleasure from peeling it off my hand. I thought it was neat that I
>had a hand-print complete with all the lines and markings of my hands. Come
>to think of it, I haven't done this since I was in about 6th or 7th grade.
>Maybe I'll do it now and show it to my kids....


<<< I used to do the same thing with melted wax. You have to wait until it's a
little bit cool but still liquid.
Tia >>>


I used to do it with wax, too. <g> I also love sticking my finger in warm wax and letting it harden and then taking the wax coccoon off my finger.

Karin




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

When Roy was 2 we did a lot of "glue art". That is we
went on walks and collected things, then squirted glue
all over picture size pieces of cardboard and he
arranged the things. I gave him strings of sequins,
odd beads old jewelery, yarn, macaroni, beans, paper
cut-outs of whatever he asked for.... he made lots of
these. We punched two holes in the top, looped string
or yarn or ribbon through for a hanger. Lots of
relatives decided he was precocious. But really,
there just was no way to do it wrong. One even had a
dried crayfish on it. That one was for Daddy. It
didn't survive a move....but it did hang on the wall
for about 3 years.

Roy never minded being sticky, but sometimes he liked
the manipulative, tool-like feeling of arranging
things with tweezers. A child who doesn't like finger
paints or other gooshy things could do it that way.
Water colors with a brush. Then put an overlay of
black construction paper with a cutout (you know,
slow-flake, hearts, a big hole) over it. No way to do
it wrong....it always looks good. Nice and clean and
removed. Put it is an envelope and mail to to
someone. Everyone loves to get this sort of thing in
the mail. Well, except for Sandra's MIL. Don't mail it
to her.

Sharon of the Swamp



__________________________________________________
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http://sports.yahoo.com

Marietta Shirk

My son is also disgusted by glue on his hands. We have been doing collages
for almost a year now, similar to what you talk about Sharon. I squirt glue
all over some wooden alphabet collage forms (got cheap at an educational
store), spread it out, and then plunk down tons of art stuff in little cups.
He does whatever he wants with it. We'll have the whole alphabet done to
display soon.

Marietta
Matthew 4 1/2
Alexander 1



> When Roy was 2 we did a lot of "glue art". That is we
> went on walks and collected things, then squirted glue
> all over picture size pieces of cardboard and he
> arranged the things. I gave him strings of sequins,
> odd beads old jewelery, yarn, macaroni, beans, paper
> cut-outs of whatever he asked for.... he made lots of
> these. We punched two holes in the top, looped string
> or yarn or ribbon through for a hanger. Lots of
> relatives decided he was precocious. But really,
> there just was no way to do it wrong. One even had a
> dried crayfish on it. That one was for Daddy. It
> didn't survive a move....but it did hang on the wall
> for about 3 years.
>
> Roy never minded being sticky, but sometimes he liked
> the manipulative, tool-like feeling of arranging
> things with tweezers. A child who doesn't like finger
> paints or other gooshy things could do it that way.
> Water colors with a brush. Then put an overlay of
> black construction paper with a cutout (you know,
> slow-flake, hearts, a big hole) over it. No way to do
> it wrong....it always looks good. Nice and clean and
> removed. Put it is an envelope and mail to to
> someone. Everyone loves to get this sort of thing in
> the mail. Well, except for Sandra's MIL. Don't mail it
> to her.
>
> Sharon of the Swamp

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/21/02 5:51:09 PM, bearspawprint@... writes:

<< Put it is an envelope and mail to to
someone. Everyone loves to get this sort of thing in
the mail. Well, except for Sandra's MIL. Don't mail it
to her. >>

OH, NO! i think she SHOULD get that sort of thing in the mail!!

AC Dodd, 1716 Buena Vista Corte, Alamogordo NM 88310
It's okay if the crayfish isn't dried.

(I read quickly and had to go back on that part: " One even had a
dried crayfish on it. That one was for Daddy. It
didn't survive..." I had to go back to find "dried"--I thought he crayfish
didn't survive being imbedded in glue!)

I guess it would probably be too awful for her to receive a sampling of
unschooling art from around the world... darn it.

Sandra

Sharon Rudd

I'll send her something, if you REALLY mean it....not
to stir up trouble though. Nothing icky and decayed.
Maybe a card with pressed flowers or something like
that. ?

Last night Roy put Fox 30 on. There was a Glutton's
eating contest. One of the categories was: Beef
Tongues! Whole. Gross!! Ick!! Gag!!

Sharon of the Swamp

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/21/02 5:51:09 PM,
> bearspawprint@... writes:
>
> << Put it is an envelope and mail to to
> someone. Everyone loves to get this sort of thing in
> the mail. Well, except for Sandra's MIL. Don't mail
> it
> to her. >>
>
> OH, NO! i think she SHOULD get that sort of thing
> in the mail!!
>
> AC Dodd, 1716 Buena Vista Corte, Alamogordo NM
> 88310
> It's okay if the crayfish isn't dried.
>
> (I read quickly and had to go back on that part: "
> One even had a
> dried crayfish on it. That one was for Daddy. It
> didn't survive..." I had to go back to find
> "dried"--I thought he crayfish
> didn't survive being imbedded in glue!)
>
> I guess it would probably be too awful for her to
> receive a sampling of
> unschooling art from around the world... darn it.
>
> Sandra
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/22/02 7:31:49 PM, bearspawprint@... writes:

<< I'll send her something, if you REALLY mean it....not
to stir up trouble though. Nothing icky and decayed.
Maybe a card with pressed flowers or something like
that. ?
>>

Nah...
Better to leave her in peace, let sleeping dogs lie, don't disturb the dragon
and all that.

But thanks for the amusing image!