Feedback and affirmation in unschooling
Hael
Quick reminder: I am Deb, step-mom to 9-yo Julian, who has been homeschooled by his Gram for the past four years, very traditional, curriculum-based, sit-at-desk-look-at-whiteboard-I'll-tell-you-what-you-need-to-know "schooling." We are now entering unschooling land, with me as the facilitator/friend/benevolent guide-type.
Julian is not ready to give up some of his familiar routines, as I learned last week, when he chose to "do some school" after we spent a few days "doing nothing." I think he began to feel a little anxious about what's going on, even though we talked about some changes, we had a few impromptu talks about learning all the time, (comparing his learning to that of his 10-month-old sister, who doesn't "do school," but who is, nonetheless learning with abandon). He played a good bit of World of Warcraft, then logged on to a site we started using a couple months ago, "Time4Learning," to do a science project and find some other fun stuff to do. He did a cave drawing and made some homemade clay that he played with for over an hour one morning. He spent time in the greenhouse with his dad, cleaning hydroponic channels and transferring nursery plants. He seemed piqued by the idea of changing the "school" room into a play-room / science lab / plant propagation room.
Okay, here's my question:
Julian is, as I was for my entire childhood, addicted to feedback. There are few things he does without asking, "Is it good? Did I do good?"
From "school work" to working with his dad to eating to playing, he wants a rating. "On a scale of 1-10, what do you give it?" he wants to know.
I have struggled with this for years. Before I found unschooling, I already felt uncomfortable "grading" his work, because I know how addicting and unnecessary that whole system became for me, through college and beyond. But it's all he knows.
Several months back, when I started doing more of his schooling with him, and he wanted my feedback on some work he'd done, I'd throw it back to him -- "what do YOU think? Did you do your best?" etc. However, I also felt that was a difficult way of helping him to feel capable and independent -- he seemed to feel that I was tricking him -- after all, if an adult doesn't say, "You did a good job," then there must be a problem, right?
I think the further we get from him doing formal "school" projects and activities, the less he'll ask. But for now, he wants an answer, and I am seriously at a loss as to how to respond in a way that both affirms what he's up to, and also helps him start to develop some trust in his own ability to do stuff. This kid wants affirmation on how he eats, and how he plays with Legos -- "Did I do a good job?"
I so want to help guide him away from being a people-pleaser. He's such a sweet-heart, but he can't get past wanting everyone to like him and be happy with him.
So much of this has been trained into him over the years -- Gram has to judge every single act he does as "good" or "bad," whether he's combing his hair or playing in a pile of leaves. Grr.
Help.
Julian is not ready to give up some of his familiar routines, as I learned last week, when he chose to "do some school" after we spent a few days "doing nothing." I think he began to feel a little anxious about what's going on, even though we talked about some changes, we had a few impromptu talks about learning all the time, (comparing his learning to that of his 10-month-old sister, who doesn't "do school," but who is, nonetheless learning with abandon). He played a good bit of World of Warcraft, then logged on to a site we started using a couple months ago, "Time4Learning," to do a science project and find some other fun stuff to do. He did a cave drawing and made some homemade clay that he played with for over an hour one morning. He spent time in the greenhouse with his dad, cleaning hydroponic channels and transferring nursery plants. He seemed piqued by the idea of changing the "school" room into a play-room / science lab / plant propagation room.
Okay, here's my question:
Julian is, as I was for my entire childhood, addicted to feedback. There are few things he does without asking, "Is it good? Did I do good?"
From "school work" to working with his dad to eating to playing, he wants a rating. "On a scale of 1-10, what do you give it?" he wants to know.
I have struggled with this for years. Before I found unschooling, I already felt uncomfortable "grading" his work, because I know how addicting and unnecessary that whole system became for me, through college and beyond. But it's all he knows.
Several months back, when I started doing more of his schooling with him, and he wanted my feedback on some work he'd done, I'd throw it back to him -- "what do YOU think? Did you do your best?" etc. However, I also felt that was a difficult way of helping him to feel capable and independent -- he seemed to feel that I was tricking him -- after all, if an adult doesn't say, "You did a good job," then there must be a problem, right?
I think the further we get from him doing formal "school" projects and activities, the less he'll ask. But for now, he wants an answer, and I am seriously at a loss as to how to respond in a way that both affirms what he's up to, and also helps him start to develop some trust in his own ability to do stuff. This kid wants affirmation on how he eats, and how he plays with Legos -- "Did I do a good job?"
I so want to help guide him away from being a people-pleaser. He's such a sweet-heart, but he can't get past wanting everyone to like him and be happy with him.
So much of this has been trained into him over the years -- Gram has to judge every single act he does as "good" or "bad," whether he's combing his hair or playing in a pile of leaves. Grr.
Help.
alexandriapalonia
Since he's only 9, he may not have a lot of vocabulary and thought processes built around self-assessment. One tact to take is to help him develop those thoughts and that vocabulary.
You could ask him about the project: What did he set out to do? Did he accomplish that goal? What would he change if he had it to do over again? Does he like the outcome? Why or why not? Gatto has some very beautiful pieces on self-feedback (and learning through trial and error) . . . there are several in _Weapons of Mass Instruction_ . . . real projects in the real world tend to have good feedback loops built right into them (badly built boat sinks, under built tree house won't hold, poorly executed product won't sell).
It's not going to happen overnight, but I suspect the glimmers you're seeing now will grow.
Andrea
You could ask him about the project: What did he set out to do? Did he accomplish that goal? What would he change if he had it to do over again? Does he like the outcome? Why or why not? Gatto has some very beautiful pieces on self-feedback (and learning through trial and error) . . . there are several in _Weapons of Mass Instruction_ . . . real projects in the real world tend to have good feedback loops built right into them (badly built boat sinks, under built tree house won't hold, poorly executed product won't sell).
It's not going to happen overnight, but I suspect the glimmers you're seeing now will grow.
Andrea
> Quick reminder: I am Deb, step-mom to 9-yo Julian, who has been homeschooled by his Gram for the past four years, very traditional, curriculum-based, sit-at-desk-look-at-whiteboard-I'll-tell-you-what-you-need-to-know "schooling." We are now entering unschooling land, with me as the facilitator/friend/benevolent guide-type.
> Several months back, when I started doing more of his schooling with him, and he wanted my feedback on some work he'd done, I'd throw it back to him -- "what do YOU think? Did you do your best?" etc. However, I also felt that was a difficult way of helping him to feel capable and independent -- he seemed to feel that I was tricking him -- after all, if an adult doesn't say, "You did a good job," then there must be a problem, right?
>
> I think the further we get from him doing formal "school" projects and activities, the less he'll ask. But for now, he wants an answer, and I am seriously at a loss as to how to respond in a way that both affirms what he's up to, and also helps him start to develop some trust in his own ability to do stuff. This kid wants affirmation on how he eats, and how he plays with Legos -- "Did I do a good job?"
>
> I so want to help guide him away from being a people-pleaser. He's such a sweet-heart, but he can't get past wanting everyone to like him and be happy with him.
>
> So much of this has been trained into him over the years -- Gram has to judge every single act he does as "good" or "bad," whether he's combing his hair or playing in a pile of leaves. Grr.
>
> Help.
>
Joanna
Here was a sample conversation I came up with that expresses some thoughts I had around your question. Hope it helps.
Julian--
When you ask me to judge how you did on things, it makes me feel uncomfortable, because I know that you put in to that project whatever made sense to you. If you are REALLY into something, you put more of yourself. If you don't care so much, you put less of yourself. Those are things that matter to you, not me, as they should. What is in your heart about this is ALL that really matters. I think you are a 10 all the time, so I don't like to tell you anything else, because I see that you are doing what's right for you all the time.
--Then look for something in what he shows you to talk about, like a color he used in a certain way or something like that, and avoid the good/bad, scale of 10 thing. If he continues to ask, you could gently remind him again that it makes you uncomfortable because his opinion of what he did is SO much more important than yours, but your'e afraid he'll make yours more important.
Joanna
Julian--
When you ask me to judge how you did on things, it makes me feel uncomfortable, because I know that you put in to that project whatever made sense to you. If you are REALLY into something, you put more of yourself. If you don't care so much, you put less of yourself. Those are things that matter to you, not me, as they should. What is in your heart about this is ALL that really matters. I think you are a 10 all the time, so I don't like to tell you anything else, because I see that you are doing what's right for you all the time.
--Then look for something in what he shows you to talk about, like a color he used in a certain way or something like that, and avoid the good/bad, scale of 10 thing. If he continues to ask, you could gently remind him again that it makes you uncomfortable because his opinion of what he did is SO much more important than yours, but your'e afraid he'll make yours more important.
Joanna
> "I so want to help guide him away from being a people-pleaser. He's such a sweet-heart, but he can't get past wanting everyone to like him and be happy with him."
>
Jenny Cyphers
***This kid wants affirmation on how he eats, and how he plays with Legos -- "Did I do a good job?"***
I think somewhere inside of you, you must know this because you wrote it and it's a big clue... he wants affirmation! He is asking if he did a good job because up until this point that is how he's received affirmation, yet there are many ways in which one can give affirmation to a kid.
If he's built a cool lego creation and is asking if he did a good job, maybe tell him what you like about his lego creation, really look at what he's done and then you could talk about the cool things you can do with legos in relation to whatever special thing he's done with the legos. Like this..."That's really cool that you put a wall right there, I like that you put a window there on that side of the wall so that the little guy can look out and see who's coming.". Okay, so my example is lame-ish, but it's the idea. He'll get positive feedback or affirmation on something he's done that opens the door to discussing why he did it and the thoughts behind it. It's way better than any "good job!"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think somewhere inside of you, you must know this because you wrote it and it's a big clue... he wants affirmation! He is asking if he did a good job because up until this point that is how he's received affirmation, yet there are many ways in which one can give affirmation to a kid.
If he's built a cool lego creation and is asking if he did a good job, maybe tell him what you like about his lego creation, really look at what he's done and then you could talk about the cool things you can do with legos in relation to whatever special thing he's done with the legos. Like this..."That's really cool that you put a wall right there, I like that you put a window there on that side of the wall so that the little guy can look out and see who's coming.". Okay, so my example is lame-ish, but it's the idea. He'll get positive feedback or affirmation on something he's done that opens the door to discussing why he did it and the thoughts behind it. It's way better than any "good job!"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-etc. However, I also felt that was a difficult way of helping him
to feel capable and independent -- he seemed to feel that I was
tricking him -- after all, if an adult doesn't say, "You did a good
job," then there must be a problem, right?-=-
I think the opposite of constant praise and criticism (no praise, no
criticism) is as bad or worse.
I thank my husband when he's done something sweet and out of his way.
(I thank him for the regular easy stuff, too.) If he comes up with an
elegant solution to a problem, I go all gushy with gratitude, because
I'm grateful. I'm expressing my honest thoughts, not trying to
manipulate him into staying around and doing more efficient things.
But what if he does those things to manipulate me into staying with
him? What if he's "only" nice to me because he wants me to stay with
him until we're old and we die? What's the alternative to that?
That he would assume I was staying, and stop trying to be nice?
I organized a very different kind of unschooling get-together and it
took a lot of time, and I was in Santa Fe five full days, myself, and
my husband did a ton of work for and toward it, during and after it,
too. We got some good feedback. We got "affirmation." People
commented on some specific aspects of it, and that made me feel good!
If no one who went to it had said "You did a good job," then I think
there would have been a problem. For sure. And I wasn't fishing for
any exact phrase, not "A+" or "thank you" or "good job!" I wasn't
fishing at all. I had enjoyed myself and except for some serious
exhaustion one morning and a little overwhelmedness, which I breathed
a couple of breaths into and perked right up, it was great for me.
So did people do wrong to say "You and Keith did this and that cool
stuff and I'm glad I was there"?
If (and I think it is) a good mark of how to treat children is to
treat them as we would treat our friends, why not say "I like that?"
or "That's beautiful" if we like something or something is beautiful?
Or "That scares me," or "please don't do that" if something is scaring
or disturbing us?
-=I so want to help guide him away from being a people-pleaser. He's
such a sweet-heart, but he can't get past wanting everyone to like him
and be happy with him.-=-
Why do you want to guide him away from wanting to be liked, and
wanting to help others be happy?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to feel capable and independent -- he seemed to feel that I was
tricking him -- after all, if an adult doesn't say, "You did a good
job," then there must be a problem, right?-=-
I think the opposite of constant praise and criticism (no praise, no
criticism) is as bad or worse.
I thank my husband when he's done something sweet and out of his way.
(I thank him for the regular easy stuff, too.) If he comes up with an
elegant solution to a problem, I go all gushy with gratitude, because
I'm grateful. I'm expressing my honest thoughts, not trying to
manipulate him into staying around and doing more efficient things.
But what if he does those things to manipulate me into staying with
him? What if he's "only" nice to me because he wants me to stay with
him until we're old and we die? What's the alternative to that?
That he would assume I was staying, and stop trying to be nice?
I organized a very different kind of unschooling get-together and it
took a lot of time, and I was in Santa Fe five full days, myself, and
my husband did a ton of work for and toward it, during and after it,
too. We got some good feedback. We got "affirmation." People
commented on some specific aspects of it, and that made me feel good!
If no one who went to it had said "You did a good job," then I think
there would have been a problem. For sure. And I wasn't fishing for
any exact phrase, not "A+" or "thank you" or "good job!" I wasn't
fishing at all. I had enjoyed myself and except for some serious
exhaustion one morning and a little overwhelmedness, which I breathed
a couple of breaths into and perked right up, it was great for me.
So did people do wrong to say "You and Keith did this and that cool
stuff and I'm glad I was there"?
If (and I think it is) a good mark of how to treat children is to
treat them as we would treat our friends, why not say "I like that?"
or "That's beautiful" if we like something or something is beautiful?
Or "That scares me," or "please don't do that" if something is scaring
or disturbing us?
-=I so want to help guide him away from being a people-pleaser. He's
such a sweet-heart, but he can't get past wanting everyone to like him
and be happy with him.-=-
Why do you want to guide him away from wanting to be liked, and
wanting to help others be happy?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hael
If he's built a cool lego creation and is asking if he did a good job,
maybe
tell him what you like about his lego creation, really look at what he's
done
and then you could talk about the cool things you can do with legos in
relation
to whatever special thing he's done with the legos. Like this..."That's
really
cool that you put a wall right there, I like that you put a window there
on that
side of the wall so that the little guy can look out and see who's
coming.".
Okay, so my example is lame-ish, but it's the idea. He'll get positive
feedback
or affirmation on something he's done that opens the door to discussing
why he
did it and the thoughts behind it. It's way better than any "good job!"
Maybe I need to think of it more in terms of giving him information
rather than blank check affirmation -- because, if he were an adult, a
peer colleague, and he asked what I thought of his work, I would want to
spend some time considering the work, and then I would offer information
-- of course, if I think it's good, I will say what I think is good
about it, what specifically I like.
I'm not against giving a thumbs up, and believe me, I do it all the
time. I thank him all the time for his help on things, in the kitchen,
or with the baby, or when I see him picking up a scrap of trash to toss
out, just because he is thoughtful that way.
I think my concern/fear is coming from my own experiences, growing up
and not trusting my OWN assessment of my work, never being able to stop
and make my own assessments for fear it wouldn't measure up in someone
else's eyes.
I worry because of his reasons for doing things -- his motivation, I
guess. I want him to be motivated to do things for his own pleasure,
for his own fulfillment, and in that way, I think he can grow to make
decisions for HIMSELF better. I spent so many years worrying about
legitimizing my actions and decisions and looking to others to tell me I
was okay, I just hoped that I could help him avoid that pit. It took me
years and a brush with mortality to finally decide I could make
decisions and act without needing some authority to tell me it was a
good thing.
I read all these stories of people wanting to raise their children in an
environment of acceptance and joy, which is what I want for Julian.
It's that look in his eyes that communicates to me, "please, please like
me for the thing I just did," that makes me feel he doesn't feel
unconditionally accepted. I want to make him feel affirmed and loved
for who he is, for just being, NOT for "doing" something we adults
approve of.
Maybe I am just impatient -- but I am hoping to both help undo some of
the potential damage he's already incurred and I'd also like to prevent
any further damage by saying or doing something regarding his "work" and
"play" that makes him do it SOLELY for my benefit, for my approval.
I'm certainly not anti-praise.
Thanks,
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maybe
tell him what you like about his lego creation, really look at what he's
done
and then you could talk about the cool things you can do with legos in
relation
to whatever special thing he's done with the legos. Like this..."That's
really
cool that you put a wall right there, I like that you put a window there
on that
side of the wall so that the little guy can look out and see who's
coming.".
Okay, so my example is lame-ish, but it's the idea. He'll get positive
feedback
or affirmation on something he's done that opens the door to discussing
why he
did it and the thoughts behind it. It's way better than any "good job!"
Maybe I need to think of it more in terms of giving him information
rather than blank check affirmation -- because, if he were an adult, a
peer colleague, and he asked what I thought of his work, I would want to
spend some time considering the work, and then I would offer information
-- of course, if I think it's good, I will say what I think is good
about it, what specifically I like.
I'm not against giving a thumbs up, and believe me, I do it all the
time. I thank him all the time for his help on things, in the kitchen,
or with the baby, or when I see him picking up a scrap of trash to toss
out, just because he is thoughtful that way.
I think my concern/fear is coming from my own experiences, growing up
and not trusting my OWN assessment of my work, never being able to stop
and make my own assessments for fear it wouldn't measure up in someone
else's eyes.
I worry because of his reasons for doing things -- his motivation, I
guess. I want him to be motivated to do things for his own pleasure,
for his own fulfillment, and in that way, I think he can grow to make
decisions for HIMSELF better. I spent so many years worrying about
legitimizing my actions and decisions and looking to others to tell me I
was okay, I just hoped that I could help him avoid that pit. It took me
years and a brush with mortality to finally decide I could make
decisions and act without needing some authority to tell me it was a
good thing.
I read all these stories of people wanting to raise their children in an
environment of acceptance and joy, which is what I want for Julian.
It's that look in his eyes that communicates to me, "please, please like
me for the thing I just did," that makes me feel he doesn't feel
unconditionally accepted. I want to make him feel affirmed and loved
for who he is, for just being, NOT for "doing" something we adults
approve of.
Maybe I am just impatient -- but I am hoping to both help undo some of
the potential damage he's already incurred and I'd also like to prevent
any further damage by saying or doing something regarding his "work" and
"play" that makes him do it SOLELY for my benefit, for my approval.
I'm certainly not anti-praise.
Thanks,
Deb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I worry because of his reasons for doing things -- his motivation, I
guess. I want him to be motivated to do things for his own pleasure,
for his own fulfillment, and in that way, I think he can grow to make
decisions for HIMSELF better-=-
Any personal traits can develop better in an environment of trust and
patience, I think. Maybe his personality is as it will always be, and
he needs acceptance of that. Maybe he will become more self-motivated
as he gets older, but it won't happen because you tell him to do it.
-=It's that look in his eyes that communicates to me, "please, please
like
me for the thing I just did," that makes me feel he doesn't feel
unconditionally accepted.-=-
It sounds like you would accept him better if he were different, so I
think he's right.
-=- I want to make him feel affirmed and loved
for who he is, for just being, NOT for "doing" something we adults
approve of.-=-
If who he is is a kid who wants approval and feedback, then give it to
him!
-=-Maybe I am just impatient -- but I am hoping to both help undo some
of
the potential damage he's already incurred and I'd also like to prevent
any further damage by saying or doing something regarding his "work" and
"play" that makes him do it SOLELY for my benefit, for my approval.-=-
I doubt he's doing anything solely for your benefit or approval. If
he gains feedback, maybe he's doing it for himself, to get the feedback.
Maybe you're impatient. Are you enough months into deschooling to
account for all his schooling and schoolishness and your own too?
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
guess. I want him to be motivated to do things for his own pleasure,
for his own fulfillment, and in that way, I think he can grow to make
decisions for HIMSELF better-=-
Any personal traits can develop better in an environment of trust and
patience, I think. Maybe his personality is as it will always be, and
he needs acceptance of that. Maybe he will become more self-motivated
as he gets older, but it won't happen because you tell him to do it.
-=It's that look in his eyes that communicates to me, "please, please
like
me for the thing I just did," that makes me feel he doesn't feel
unconditionally accepted.-=-
It sounds like you would accept him better if he were different, so I
think he's right.
-=- I want to make him feel affirmed and loved
for who he is, for just being, NOT for "doing" something we adults
approve of.-=-
If who he is is a kid who wants approval and feedback, then give it to
him!
-=-Maybe I am just impatient -- but I am hoping to both help undo some
of
the potential damage he's already incurred and I'd also like to prevent
any further damage by saying or doing something regarding his "work" and
"play" that makes him do it SOLELY for my benefit, for my approval.-=-
I doubt he's doing anything solely for your benefit or approval. If
he gains feedback, maybe he's doing it for himself, to get the feedback.
Maybe you're impatient. Are you enough months into deschooling to
account for all his schooling and schoolishness and your own too?
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 1/18/2010 4:19 PM, Hael wrote:
another, in a way. He's experienced a lot of manipulation by someone
constantly saying, "Good boy." Now you want to find a way to undo the
effect you think that has had on him, right? So, you're looking for
another way to turn him into something he's not (right now).
Instead - why not be real, be honest, be kind and sweet and appreciative
of him. It sounds to ME like a kid who needs, for some reason, a lot of
reassurance. He won't "get over that" by having reassurance withheld
from him, that much I know.
Accept him as he is right now. Try to meet his current needs. He needs
your approval, he wants your thumbs up. It isn't that much to ask - give
it to him generously!
I have a feeling you're going way overboard in projecting your own
issues onto him.
-pam
-pam
> Maybe I am just impatient -- but I am hoping to both help undo some ofSeems like you want to switch one kind of manipulation of him for
> the potential damage he's already incurred and I'd also like to prevent
> any further damage by saying or doing something regarding his "work" and
> "play" that makes him do it SOLELY for my benefit, for my approval.
>
another, in a way. He's experienced a lot of manipulation by someone
constantly saying, "Good boy." Now you want to find a way to undo the
effect you think that has had on him, right? So, you're looking for
another way to turn him into something he's not (right now).
Instead - why not be real, be honest, be kind and sweet and appreciative
of him. It sounds to ME like a kid who needs, for some reason, a lot of
reassurance. He won't "get over that" by having reassurance withheld
from him, that much I know.
Accept him as he is right now. Try to meet his current needs. He needs
your approval, he wants your thumbs up. It isn't that much to ask - give
it to him generously!
I have a feeling you're going way overboard in projecting your own
issues onto him.
-pam
-pam