Joyce Fetteroll

Sometimes I think Scott Noelle listens in since his daily emails
sometimes touch on what gets discussed on the lists ;-)

Anyway here's something about helping them versus fixing them.

> :: Helping vs. Co-creation ::
>
> Q: How do you know when it's appropriate
> to offer your child help/assistance?
>
> A: When the offer feels *inspired* rather
> than fear-based.
>
> If you're coming from a perspective that your child is
> helpless, damaged, weak, incompetent, lost, wrong,
> etc., then your "help" will only give power to that
> belief. It won't feel inspired to you, and it won't
> inspire your child to connect with his or her Power.
>
> But if you consciously shift your perspective to one
> in which you see your child as capable of finding his
> or her way, you won't feel like you "should" help, and
> you probably won't offer to help unless asked.
>
> However, you might be *inspired* to get involved in a
> way that doesn't feel like you're a "have" helping a
> "have-not" -- it'll feel more like two souls playing
> together, co-creating purely for the joy of it!
>
> http://dailygroove.net/helping
>
> Feel free to forward this message to your friends!
> (Please include this paragraph and everything above.)
> Copyright (c) 2009 by Scott Noelle


Joyce

Pam Sorooshian

On 8/28/2009 9:36 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> > If you're coming from a perspective that your child is
> > helpless, damaged, weak, incompetent, lost, wrong,
> > etc., then your "help" will only give power to that
> > belief. It won't feel inspired to you, and it won't
> > inspire your child to connect with his or her Power

I don't know, Joyce. The list of words don't go together - kids are
clearly, in some ways, helpless, as infants and less and less so, but
still somewhat, as they grow. How is that the same as "wrong?" They are
still, in some ways, incompetent. Roxana can't drive. She is incompetent
to drive. There isn't anything WRONG with that - but it means I help her
because she needs help to get places.

I think we should help our kids even when we do not feel inspired!

It sounds like that message people sometimes put in their sig lines ----

"Never do anything for me where there is the least bit of fear, guilt,
shame, resentment or resignation behind your motives. Otherwise we'll
both suffer. Please honor my request only if it comes from your heart,
where it is a gift to yourself to give to me." Marshall B. Rosenberg

Nice sentiment. Something to strive for. But I don't want a parent to be
refusing to do something for their child because they happen to feel a
little resentment that day. I'm tired today and have a lot to do, but I
told Rosie I'd go to Disneyland with her and I'm going in SPITE of a
little bit of wishing I hadn't agreed. We'll have fun. But, am I going
just a bit because I'd feel guilty to change my mind? Yes, for sure.

I can just see this quote (and Scott's version of it) being used by
parents to justify not doing all kinds of things because they don't feel
that it is coming from their heart right at that moment. I saw a mom
brush off her 9 year old who was saying she was hungry. That mom is a
big follower of this kind of thinking and I think she only does things
for her kids when she feels "inspired." I "Only do things if and when
you really feel like it." Just doesn't seem sensible advice for parents.

-pam

melidi7

<<I don't want a parent to be
refusing to do something for their child because they happen to feel a
little resentment that day. I'm tired today and have a lot to do, but I
told Rosie I'd go to Disneyland with her and I'm going in SPITE of a
little bit of wishing I hadn't agreed. We'll have fun. But, am I going
just a bit because I'd feel guilty to change my mind? Yes, for sure.

I can just see this quote (and Scott's version of it) being used by
parents to justify not doing all kinds of things because they don't feel
that it is coming from their heart right at that moment.I saw a mom
brush off her 9 year old who was saying she was hungry. That mom is a
big follower of this kind of thinking and I think she only does things
for her kids when she feels "inspired." I "Only do things if and when
you really feel like it." Just doesn't seem sensible advice for parents.<<

and what about with children?
I agree with what you write pam-I foster connection with my children by helping them out in anyway I can, so any "I-dont-feel-like-it" feelings get overrided for me by my valuing my relationship with my children over any other thing.

but just today I was wondering if I am getting carried away in another direction:
with my children I only want them to help me when they want to help. As I read once on Joyce's site I help them all the time, and ask often while being cool with whatever the anwer is (as if I were asking "do you want to go for a walk?"). My 11 year old often wants to help clean up, but will then want to force his sister (9yr) to help out as well... (who also likes to help out ...when shes not ordered about by her brother!)
Im pretty sure he gets this from my partner who often incites others to help me (against their wills) even when I am more than happy to proceed alone.

I find myself saying out loud that I only want help if it is happily given. I would never want even my partner to help me in anger or resentment (not saying he ever does that)...and I am wondering if saying this outloud is going too far.
if so, how can I remedy this?

Im not sure if what Ive written makes sense and Ive reread it several times.

thanks melissa
in italy
mamma di 7

jenstarc4

> Nice sentiment. Something to strive for. But I don't want a parent to
be
> refusing to do something for their child because they happen to feel a
> little resentment that day.

I think the biggest element in all of that is that people can make
choices! Sometimes I am really tired and don't want to do something,
and sometimes I let people know that, even unkindly. However, mostly I
strive to change my own attitude about helping someone. I can take a
deep breath and change directions, even physically change directions to
face something other than what is frustrating or difficult in that
moment. Most of the time it works and I'm able to move along and help
my family members without feeling down about it, or down about myself.

I'm feeling resentment towards yahoo right now, but I'll work past it
and go make my kids food and I'll actually feel better for having done
something pleasant and nice instead of focusing on that resentment.

Chamille is working on finding tools for herself when she gets irritated
or frustrated, especially with her younger sister. The best she can do
right now is leave the room to be by herself before she gets mean
towards her. Sometimes she gets mean first, catches herself and leaves
to prevent it from continuing and escalating. The awareness is there,
which is the most important part of the equation, the second part is
taking action to change it.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think the biggest element in all of that is that people can make
choices! -=-

One post I've returned today had this, first a quote from me and then
a comment:

--------------------------
> If you hate cooking but you have children, do something to change
> that.

Change my feelings about cooking, you mean? (I'm going to assume you
didn't mean that I should change whether I have children, lol.)
--------------------------
Now that it's mentioned, yes. Any parent can relinquish parental
rights--put children up for adoption, turn them over to the state. If
you don't consider that an option, then you can continue to feel
trapped and put upon and that life is unfair.

So consider giving your kids away. Consider it. If it seems wrong
and crazy, THEN and only then have you decided to keep your children.
Having decided to keep them, don't you think they deserve a mother who
will graciously and generously offer them food?

-=-I'm trying to not let the waste bother me and view it as simply
part of him being here (like the food bill and medical care -- part
and parcel of living). It's just very hard to ignore the *waste* part
of it when the mail arrives and the number is that high, KWIM?-=-

-=-He "likes me enough" to do all kinds of other things for me, it's
just this one thing that's a problem (for me).-=-

My kids respect me in ways that don't require quotation marks, because
I've been kind and generous with them for 20 years, average. Arguing
here about whose kids "like" them better is a very bad use of time and
electricity.

A report comes in that a teen is ignoring a mom. People make
suggestions. Mom doesn't need to defend herself. Just take the
suggestions or don't.

When people write on the list, they're writing for the discussion, for
all readers, not just for and to the original questioner.
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
No one 'has to' read that, but not reading it runs the risk of
operating without the information that would have made things go
smoothly for everyone involved.

Sandra





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Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 28, 2009, at 12:52 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
>> helpless, damaged, weak, incompetent, lost, wrong
>>
> I don't know, Joyce. The list of words don't go together
>

I'm reading them all as negative words that are more likely to
trigger negative feelings and attitudes.

Infants are pretty much helpless and weak and they probably
appreciate being seen that way ;-) But as they grow ... I don't know.
I'm picturing two opposite but common perspectives parents can hold
so it's hard to pin down what will help people shift to a better
perspective. Some parents get stuck seeing their kids as helpless so
do everything for them. Some parents are impatient for their kids to
be less needy so are anxious for them to be self sufficient.

> They are
> still, in some ways, incompetent. Roxana can't drive. She is
> incompetent
> to drive. There isn't anything WRONG with that - but it means I
> help her
> because she needs help to get places.

The dictionary definition may say "not having or showing the
necessary skills to do something successfully" but the thesaurus
lists: "inept, unskillful, unskilled, inexpert, amateurish,
unprofessional, bungling, blundering, clumsy, inadequate,
substandard, inferior, ineffective ..." and it keeps going. So
there's nothing wrong with the denotation of incompetent, but the
connotation has lots wrong with it.

If a mother resents doing for her child, thinking of her child as
incompetent I don't believe will help her do more with less resentment.
> But I don't want a parent to be
> refusing to do something for their child because they happen to feel a
> little resentment that day.
>

I'll admit I wanted him to say "But if you consciously shift your
perspective" -- which he did! -- but I didn't take in the rest. So,
yes, shift your perspective, but not necessarily one direction. Shift
it in the direction that your child needs you to! ;-)

For some parents it will help them to see their child as competent
because they're too used to seeing their children's weaknesses. For
some parents it will help them to see their child as still needing
help because maybe their parents withdrew their help too young and
they resent having to help.

And there's also pressure some parents feel to not just help their
kids but to help them do something the "right way" -- like help them
eat only 3 cookies -- rather than helping the child meet their needs.
But sometimes there is a right! Punching someone in the face to get a
toy back isn't right. Which is why philosophy needs examples to
explain it ;-) (I often resort to the long "help a child get what the
want in ways that are safe and respectful".) Ultimately in some cases
like this, the wording that will help one person move the right
direction will move another person in the wrong direction.

Best is to see the whole child as being a mixture of capable and
needing help. Being supportive is a good phrase but is too often
equated with helping --which sometimes means doing for them. So the
best route to a middle ground from the two extremes is to listen to
your child. Take your cues from them. Get to know them and their
needs. Not all children are so straightforward that they'll say
exactly what they need. We need to put the puzzle pieces together to
figure out when help means stepping forward or stepping back.

Joyce

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Best is to see the whole child as being a mixture of capable and
needing help.-=-

And make allowances for when people are sick, or otherwise more needy
than on their best days!

Sandra, sick

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Lyla Wolfenstein

For some parents it will help them to see their child as competent
because they're too used to seeing their children's weaknesses. For
some parents it will help them to see their child as still needing
help because maybe their parents withdrew their help too young and
they resent having to help
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

and some parents are used to seeing their child as more competent than they actually are, say, in the emotional department - expecting them to solve conflicts on their own, not explode, not cry, not be shy, etc., but they see that same child as totally imcompetent in the physical world - telling them it's not safe for them to - fill in the blank: cook, play on their own outside, walk around the neighborhood, jump off of something, etc.

Lyla

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