Pat Cald...

From: SandraDodd@...
>Why didn't you say something to him?
>
>It escalated to the point that he hit her, and it might not have if an adult
>had said "Stop teasing, that's enough" or whatever was appropriate.

How to handle situations like this is "the million dollar question". The choices are a)Let the kids learn to deal with this on their own with your coaching in private if necessary. b) Step in and deal with the kid yourself to help your kid out. c) Either you or your kid tell the kid's mother if things become too difficult to deal with.

The times I have gotten involved have not ended in a positive way. So obviously for me this is not my first option. When I've let my kids deal with things themselves, they have handled things very well and usually we just discuss things after the fact. This has worked well in most situations. Virginia has learned to use humor when faced with bullies. When she was in ps some girls started ganging up on her on the play ground. One girl pushed her into a fence. Virginia turned to her and said something like "Oh, you want to dance, I love dancing" and opened her arms wide to begin the dance. The girls just walked away. Later this girl told Virginia she was sorry and that she just wanted to be her friend.

I wonder if Virginia would have learned to handle things this well if I had stepped in.
She just has a way with people that I will never have.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/02 9:27:12 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< I wonder if Virginia would have learned to handle things this well if I
had stepped in. >>

I learned a lot by being bullied on the schoolbus and at school and at church
and I think I should NOT have had to learn those lessons on my own.

So when I heard homeschoolers making the same recommendations that I heard
when I was a kid in school (let them work it out for themselves) I think of
the kids' feelings first. They shouldn't be put in situations where they're
afraid or being tormented, and if the parents just leave them there "for
their own good," the cruelty and meanness become the parent's doing.

Sandra

[email protected]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:50:58 EST SandraDodd@... writes:

> I think I should NOT have had to learn those lessons on my own.


This drives me crazy. Organizations spend tons of money every year
helping grown women get away from abusive partners and yet we tell kids
they have to learn to work things out for themselves. I don't know any
adults who would think it's ok for a co worker to harass them and hit
them, or an employer, or a neighbor, but parents send there kids to deal
with school bullies all the time because it's *part of growing up.* Well
it shouldn't be part of growing up, ever.

There is a very serious situation brewing in our little community. Three
boys, the son's of a Jr.high school teacher are getting away with hurting
kids at school. The littlest one, a big boy actually, in second grade
hurt a girl on the playground a few months ago. He hit her and knocked
her down, tried to stab her with a stick and bit on the back of her thigh
hard enough to draw blood.
These same kids have been in trouble for cruelty to animals and when the
authorities didn't want to do anything to them the animal control warden
quit her job after catching them raiding birds nests and using the baby
birds as fishing bait. They hung their neighbors cat from her clothes
line. Some parents have taken their kids out of school and others are
threatening to sue the school district if their kids get hurt because the
school is doing nothing to keep them safe. What are the parents doing?
No one wants to stir things up.

Deb L

birdiebutt2001

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/8/02 9:27:12 AM, homeschoolmd@y... writes:
>
> << I wonder if Virginia would have learned to handle things this
well if I
> had stepped in. >>
>
> I learned a lot by being bullied on the schoolbus and at school and
at church
> and I think I should NOT have had to learn those lessons on my own.
>
> So when I heard homeschoolers making the same recommendations that
I heard
> when I was a kid in school (let them work it out for themselves) I
think of
> the kids' feelings first. They shouldn't be put in situations
where they're
> afraid or being tormented, and if the parents just leave them
there "for
> their own good," the cruelty and meanness become the parent's doing.
>
> Sandra

birdiebutt2001

I was left to learn things on my own too and what I learned was that
I was fat and ugly and deserved to have rocks thrown at my head. Not
lessons I want my kids to learn. I tried to involve my parents and
school authorities and was basically told repeatedly that I was
provoking these bullies and I should just walk away. This never
worked. My parents actually told me that this was these's kids way
of trying to be my friend. So not only was I being bullied but I
liked it in a way because I though it ment these kids liked me.

Now my problem is I KNOW this isn't true and I don't want to raise my
kids that way but I have a hard time stepping in and helping my kids
when they're in trouble. It's sokmething I'm working on as much as I
can.

Katie

> --- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 2/8/02 9:27:12 AM, homeschoolmd@y... writes:
> >
> > << I wonder if Virginia would have learned to handle things this
> well if I
> > had stepped in. >>
> >
> > I learned a lot by being bullied on the schoolbus and at school
and
> at church
> > and I think I should NOT have had to learn those lessons on my
own.
> >
> > So when I heard homeschoolers making the same recommendations
that
> I heard
> > when I was a kid in school (let them work it out for themselves)
I
> think of
> > the kids' feelings first. They shouldn't be put in situations
> where they're
> > afraid or being tormented, and if the parents just leave them
> there "for
> > their own good," the cruelty and meanness become the parent's
doing.
> >
> > Sandra

[email protected]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:50:58 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
> So when I heard homeschoolers making the same recommendations that I
heard
> when I was a kid in school (let them work it out for themselves) I
think of
> the kids' feelings first. They shouldn't be put in situations where
they're
> afraid or being tormented, and if the parents just leave them there
"for
> their own good," the cruelty and meanness become the parent's doing.
>

I agree.

I think there's a balance thing here, too, though. There are some
situations where kids are disagreeing, maybe loudly or rudely, but they
also like and respect each other, and there's not a big power
disparity... and then I think it's often better not to offer help. I
guess I figure the kids can always come and get me if they really want my
help mediating, and I trust that they will... although usually when they
come, what they need is a break from the situation, more than anything.
Then they almost always go back and find a solution that works for
everyone.

I'm realizing, too, that Cacie and most of her friends come form families
where interpersonal skills and harmonious resolution of problems through
talking is valued. Also that when she was 5 and 6, things often didn't
get resolved so nicely, and playdates would end with the other child
sticking out her tongue as she left and Cacie shouting "I hope you get in
a car accident and die on the way home!" I swear they're great friends
now, really... she was awfully intense back then, they both were. But
they were evenly matched, too, it was never one picking on another.
That's when it gets not-okay, I think, when one kid has the power...

I had more of a problem learning *not* to step in at every sign of
trouble... when I was a kid, no one ever stepped in to help me, and I
probably overcompensate(d).

Dar
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Pat Cald...

From: SandraDodd@...
>I learned a lot by being bullied on the schoolbus and at school and at church
>and I think I should NOT have had to learn those lessons on my own.
>
>So when I heard homeschoolers making the same recommendations that I heard
>when I was a kid in school (let them work it out for themselves) I think of
>the kids' feelings first. They shouldn't be put in situations where they're
>afraid or being tormented, and if the parents just leave them there "for
>their own good," the cruelty and meanness become the parent's doing.

I hope we are talking about different levels of bullying here. And of course how the child feels about what is going on makes a difference. Virginia never expressed fear in regard to the situation in school nor did she tell me she was being tormented. She just told me how she handled this particular situation which I thought she had done a great job with.

I've gone to bat many, many times for my kids when I felt it was in their best interest or they were afraid or traumatized by a situation. I have also seen parents cause more trouble for their kids by stepping in before the kids had a chance to work things out for themselves. I think the difference here is the degree of the problem, the child and whether the child even asks for help or not.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pat Cald...

>This drives me crazy. Organizations spend tons of money every year
>helping grown women get away from abusive partners and yet we tell kids
>they have to learn to work things out for themselves.

This is an interesting connection. I always thought that women that stayed in abusive relationships had low self-esteem. Some how they have been given the message that they need to put up with crap.

In my examples of kids bullying other kids, I was not talking about *anyone* accepting the bad behavior just allowing the child to deal with the bully him or herself if they could or wanted to.

I think the most important thing we can do for our kids is model standing up for our own rights as parents. What do we do when there is a situation that is wrong that affects us or our family. Our hero Eric did some leg work and brought the litterers to justice using the law. He did not go chasing after the truck and pick a fight with them. This was a great way to deal with the situation.

We need to help our children understand what options they have in dealing with their problems just like we as adults have our own options. Harassment can be a real problem for adults as well as children. Adults say mean and hurtful things to each other just as children do. I don't see a child's world as that much different than an adult's. They have rights just like we do and they need to learn how to use their rights and *assert* themselves.


>There is a very serious situation brewing in our little community. Three
>boys, the son's of a Jr.high school teacher are getting away with hurting
>kids at school. The littlest one, a big boy actually, in second grade
>hurt a girl on the playground a few months ago. He hit her and knocked
>her down, tried to stab her with a stick and bit on the back of her thigh
>hard enough to draw blood.
>These same kids have been in trouble for cruelty to animals and when the
>authorities didn't want to do anything to them the animal control warden
>quit her job after catching them raiding birds nests and using the baby
>birds as fishing bait. They hung their neighbors cat from her clothes
>line. Some parents have taken their kids out of school and others are
>threatening to sue the school district if their kids get hurt because the
>school is doing nothing to keep them safe. What are the parents doing?
>No one wants to stir things up.

That is the problem. No one wants to stir things up and this message will be passed on down from generation to generation. I'm not advocating taking crap. I'm advocating giving choices.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:40:06 -0500 "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@...>
writes:
>
> In my examples of kids bullying other kids, I was not talking about
> *anyone* accepting the bad behavior just allowing the child to deal
> with the bully him or herself if they could or wanted to.

"If they could or wanted to" is an important point I think. Our kids
will have to learn how to deal with all kinds of people, to be sure and
it's good when kids know they have a right to stand up for themselves. I
think most kids can and want to deal with normal personal conflicts in
their own way. I was thinking of the habitual bullying that goes on at
schools and in neighborhoods sometimes, not even necessarily physical,
that most kids really don't know how to deal with and shouldn't have to
on their own. When a parent says, just stay away from that kid, it
doesn't really help, because bullies are aggressors. When kids go to
parents or teachers they sometime are asked, - what are you doing that
can be setting him off? - When someone is bent on tormenting you *tell
him to leave you alone* is not helpful. Kids need real help with this
kind of thing and lots of them aren't getting it, because for some reason
we've come to believe it's all a normal part of childhood.

I was really amazed at the news coverage of a school shooting in CA.
Every student at the school who was interviewed knew the shooter had been
picked on for years and every teacher and school official denied knowing
the kid was having that kind of problem. Even when a situation doesn't
get to that point, kid victims of bullies often carry that emotional
baggage around with them for years.

I didn't mean to suggest anyone on this list was neglectful if they
weren't straight jacketing obnoxious little neighbor kids. ( But it
sounds like fun )

Deb L

Pat Cald...

From: ddzimlew@...
<snip>it's good when kids know they have a right to stand up for themselves. I
>think most kids can and want to deal with normal personal conflicts in
>their own way. I was thinking of the habitual bullying that goes on at
>schools and in neighborhoods sometimes, not even necessarily physical,
>that most kids really don't know how to deal with and shouldn't have to
>on their own. <snip>

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has successfully helped their child deal with a serious bully and what they did.

Also what type of bullying would you not consider serious enough to call the police about but would feel the need to get involved in? What have you done and how has it worked?

My experience has been that the bullies and their families have serious problems. Talking to the parents of the bully generally will not work because they either bully their own child, encourage bullying because it shows strength (huh?), or the kid is being bullied by someone else and the parents aren't helping. It is a very tough situation to deal with. My personal feeling is that if my children are ever seriously bullied in the future and we can't resolve it, I will get the police.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

Sound to me like Protective Services should check on
this family. Something is not right. Big time, not
right. It can be reported anonymously. Intervention is
in order, here.

Stir things up.

Sharon of the Swamp



> This drives me crazy. Organizations spend tons of
> money every year
> helping grown women get away from abusive partners
> and yet we tell kids
> they have to learn to work things out for
> themselves. I don't know any
> adults who would think it's OK for a co worker to
> harass them and hit
> them, or an employer, or a neighbor, but parents
> send there kids to deal
> with school bullies all the time because it's *part
> of growing up.* Well
> it shouldn't be part of growing up, ever.
>
> There is a very serious situation brewing in our
> little community. Three
> boys, the son's of a Jr.high school teacher are
> getting away with hurting
> kids at school. The littlest one, a big boy
> actually, in second grade
> hurt a girl on the playground a few months ago. He
> hit her and knocked
> her down, tried to stab her with a stick and bit on
> the back of her thigh
> hard enough to draw blood.
> These same kids have been in trouble for cruelty to
> animals and when the
> authorities didn't want to do anything to them the
> animal control warden
> quit her job after catching them raiding birds nests
> and using the baby
> birds as fishing bait. They hung their neighbors
> cat from her clothes
> line. Some parents have taken their kids out of
> school and others are
> threatening to sue the school district if their kids
> get hurt because the
> school is doing nothing to keep them safe. What are
> the parents doing?
> No one wants to stir things up.
>
> Deb L
>


__________________________________________________
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[email protected]

> Stir things up.

Yes. You know I've been thinking of it as an issue the school needed to
deal with and the whole time I've been telling Dylan that I need to be
with him if he is going to the park. It's not just a problem for the
parents with kids in school, or the new animal warden.

I'm glad I vented. Glad I woke up.

Thanks,
Deb L

moonmeghan

Deb,
Stir things up!!!! There is obviously some serious mental
problems going on here. Possibly they are being abused by
parents or someone else they know. I read a very interesting
article once (sorry, can't remember where it was) about
psychological studies done on mass/serial killers. Every single
one of them in the study (I believe they studied 50 of them)
started out by abusing and killing animals. Then they moved
onto humans. It sounds like these boys have already started on
humans. It may be in everyone's best interest if you contacted
CPS or similar (anon of course).

Meghan

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., ddzimlew@j... wrote:

> There is a very serious situation brewing in our little
community. Three
> boys, the son's of a Jr.high school teacher are getting away
with hurting
> kids at school. The littlest one, a big boy actually, in second
grade
> hurt a girl on the playground a few months ago. He hit her and
knocked
> her down, tried to stab her with a stick and bit on the back of
her thigh
> hard enough to draw blood.
> These same kids have been in trouble for cruelty to animals
and when the
> authorities didn't want to do anything to them the animal control
warden
> quit her job after catching them raiding birds nests and using
the baby
> birds as fishing bait. They hung their neighbors cat from her
clothes
> line. Some parents have taken their kids out of school and
others are
> threatening to sue the school district if their kids get hurt
because the
> school is doing nothing to keep them safe. What are the
parents doing?
> No one wants to stir things up.
>
> Deb L