Help with son's critical, unkind words and outbursts
mauratracy
H there. My son is ten. He has always had less than average impulse control, and seems to also just have a lot more impulses than many kids. He's matured over the years in many ways to where his physical impulses are more often just to bang on things, fiddle with things, etc., and not used against others *as much*.
One thing, though, seems to have gotten worse, his impulsive words and expressions. He is, so I'm told by my friends, pretty good with them, like when he's at a sleepover with them or something, he's respectful. But at home with us, his parents and brother, he's really tough to take. He says to us all manner of hurtful things all the time. Examples are, "Duh." "Shut the frick up." "You're fat." "Stupid lady." "You're such an idiot." And sings about his brother, at the top of his lungs, "Boogie's an idiot." And please forgive me for posting this one, it's so crass to me, but helps illustrate the extent of this issue, "Suck my butt."
The context of these things is totally random. He shouts them out out of no where, or in response to simple questions like, "What do you want to eat?" It's so prevalent I have wondered if he has Tourettes Syndrome, but can't figure that out, and besides, the fact that he mostly does this at home, or where he's comfortable makes me think it can't be; he must have some control. (Although I think people with Tourette's also have *some* control.)
When he says these things, I used to always correct him, but it never changed anything. When he was younger, when I still used "consequences," or punishment, we would succeed at getting rid of particular words that we were singling out, but soon after other words would just take their place. Now, sometimes I ignore them (at one time as a strategy to make them go away if not paid attention to, but now mostly because I feel so powerless, and don't know what else to do.) Sometimes I will get angry, and say, "Don't talk to me that way!!!!!" Other times I will more calmly ask him to stop. Mostly, though, it's anger or resignation. I've talked to him, and he pretty much says he just says things, and when I've laid into him in anger sometimes at my wits end, he'll cry and say he doesn't know why he does it, and can't help himself. It's horribly sad, and I feel so guilty for being mad at him, but sometimes I feel so beaten down, I feel battered and can't muster patience or understanding.
I have talked to him, when he's saying he can't help it, about quickly apologizing, like saying, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that." He never does that, but instead says, "Just kidding." I think it hurts him/scares him so much to have this thing he can't control that it's hard to admit, so he instead takes on this clown nature, everything's a joke. I personally, even though I can articulate an understanding of how this comes to be, end up seeing him sometimes as a jerk - who would joke *like that*; it's not funny.
I will add, to clarify, that he is not only like this with us, but to a lesser extent with friends too. He's always calling his friends stupid, "You're so stupid. How could you not know that?!" But I must say, I hear a lot of the friends talk like this to each other too, but it does feel like he's worse.
Another quality of all this is the criticism. I will say, like a recent mention on this list, that my son has some qualities that will be awesome when he matures, but now are rough. He is very observant, very critical, sees hypocrisy, catches incongruencies, sees others' mistakes, etc.. He is bright, and much of the time his observations are spot on, but he lacks any grace, understanding, or compassion. It's like he sees absolutely no connection between his critical words and how someone might *feel* in response to them.
A recent "last straw," although it feels like last straws many days, was this weekend after his soccer game a mom of a teammate came up to him and laid into him, saying, "Jesse, you need to stop criticizing your teammates. I've heard you since the beginning of the season, and we talked to the coach at the beginning of the season, and you haven't stopped. I hear you out there constantly criticizing my son and the others, and......." And on and on some. She didn't call him names, and didn't yell at him, but really told it as it was. I wanted to protect him from this public confrontation, but was torn, thinking, in desperation to help him, that maybe he'll hear this, and eventually get it.
I did talk to her after, and told her I understand her frustration, but wished she had come to me, and not confronted him directly (they have no relationship; we don't know her at all). She was very apologetic for that, said she was just so upset that here her son was crying, even after a game they won, hurt by something/s my son said.
I talked to him, and he says the kid is mean to him, always was. The mom said that her son has been fed up with him since early on, and so has since not been nice. My son *does not see* how things like, "Why didn't you pass it?" are critical and hurt people or make them mad. I hate to admit it, but I believe my son started it, that his criticisms pushed this kid over the edge. It may be true that he had a low tolerance, but I think it probably is true that is started with my son's insensitivity. (The other day he pointed out to his teammates that one boy - a skinny boy who is not one of the more athletic on the team - had his shorts on inside out and said, "Hey, everyone laugh at Ryan. He has his shorts on inside out." And all the boys laughed. Just another example to support why I believe he started the problem with the other boy. He did not see how getting everyone to laugh at Ryan was bad. He says, "I was just kidding.")
So, finally, to clarify, summarize, some of the things my son says just seem like random outbursts, while others seem understandable observation, criticism, but ones that when shared hurt people.
Oh, one final thing, I think a lot of my son's more random outbursts, obnoxious mean sayings come out of boredom. He needs a lot of stimulation - intellectual and physical - and we can't keep up with that need. He chooses to spend his mornings in front of the computer, and after a while I think he's almost busting out of his body. We used to say, when people would say we should make him sit in his high chair that we couldn't because we knew he would combust, or his head would blow off. He's a bundle of energy.
What can I do to help my son? I know his heart, and although he acts like such a jerk I know how he cares about people. He loves animals, and babies, and feels joy when others are joyful. He is sooooo hard to live with, and I am so sad how he hurts others. (Especially his little brother.) I feel a duty to do all I can to protect others - like his teammates. But I also want to help him so he is not perceived as nothing but a jerk, and treated as such by the world.
Sandra, I'm afraid this is way too long for this list. It seems like something where all the context is important to understand and to find solutions. Maybe also this "problem" is beyond the scope of this list. I'm asking here because I know I will get responses from people who will give my son the benefit of the doubt, and not expect that I can or should just "not tolerate it," as the rest of the world would say, and where people will offer creative "solutions" that I have not yet considered.
Thanks,
Maura
One thing, though, seems to have gotten worse, his impulsive words and expressions. He is, so I'm told by my friends, pretty good with them, like when he's at a sleepover with them or something, he's respectful. But at home with us, his parents and brother, he's really tough to take. He says to us all manner of hurtful things all the time. Examples are, "Duh." "Shut the frick up." "You're fat." "Stupid lady." "You're such an idiot." And sings about his brother, at the top of his lungs, "Boogie's an idiot." And please forgive me for posting this one, it's so crass to me, but helps illustrate the extent of this issue, "Suck my butt."
The context of these things is totally random. He shouts them out out of no where, or in response to simple questions like, "What do you want to eat?" It's so prevalent I have wondered if he has Tourettes Syndrome, but can't figure that out, and besides, the fact that he mostly does this at home, or where he's comfortable makes me think it can't be; he must have some control. (Although I think people with Tourette's also have *some* control.)
When he says these things, I used to always correct him, but it never changed anything. When he was younger, when I still used "consequences," or punishment, we would succeed at getting rid of particular words that we were singling out, but soon after other words would just take their place. Now, sometimes I ignore them (at one time as a strategy to make them go away if not paid attention to, but now mostly because I feel so powerless, and don't know what else to do.) Sometimes I will get angry, and say, "Don't talk to me that way!!!!!" Other times I will more calmly ask him to stop. Mostly, though, it's anger or resignation. I've talked to him, and he pretty much says he just says things, and when I've laid into him in anger sometimes at my wits end, he'll cry and say he doesn't know why he does it, and can't help himself. It's horribly sad, and I feel so guilty for being mad at him, but sometimes I feel so beaten down, I feel battered and can't muster patience or understanding.
I have talked to him, when he's saying he can't help it, about quickly apologizing, like saying, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that." He never does that, but instead says, "Just kidding." I think it hurts him/scares him so much to have this thing he can't control that it's hard to admit, so he instead takes on this clown nature, everything's a joke. I personally, even though I can articulate an understanding of how this comes to be, end up seeing him sometimes as a jerk - who would joke *like that*; it's not funny.
I will add, to clarify, that he is not only like this with us, but to a lesser extent with friends too. He's always calling his friends stupid, "You're so stupid. How could you not know that?!" But I must say, I hear a lot of the friends talk like this to each other too, but it does feel like he's worse.
Another quality of all this is the criticism. I will say, like a recent mention on this list, that my son has some qualities that will be awesome when he matures, but now are rough. He is very observant, very critical, sees hypocrisy, catches incongruencies, sees others' mistakes, etc.. He is bright, and much of the time his observations are spot on, but he lacks any grace, understanding, or compassion. It's like he sees absolutely no connection between his critical words and how someone might *feel* in response to them.
A recent "last straw," although it feels like last straws many days, was this weekend after his soccer game a mom of a teammate came up to him and laid into him, saying, "Jesse, you need to stop criticizing your teammates. I've heard you since the beginning of the season, and we talked to the coach at the beginning of the season, and you haven't stopped. I hear you out there constantly criticizing my son and the others, and......." And on and on some. She didn't call him names, and didn't yell at him, but really told it as it was. I wanted to protect him from this public confrontation, but was torn, thinking, in desperation to help him, that maybe he'll hear this, and eventually get it.
I did talk to her after, and told her I understand her frustration, but wished she had come to me, and not confronted him directly (they have no relationship; we don't know her at all). She was very apologetic for that, said she was just so upset that here her son was crying, even after a game they won, hurt by something/s my son said.
I talked to him, and he says the kid is mean to him, always was. The mom said that her son has been fed up with him since early on, and so has since not been nice. My son *does not see* how things like, "Why didn't you pass it?" are critical and hurt people or make them mad. I hate to admit it, but I believe my son started it, that his criticisms pushed this kid over the edge. It may be true that he had a low tolerance, but I think it probably is true that is started with my son's insensitivity. (The other day he pointed out to his teammates that one boy - a skinny boy who is not one of the more athletic on the team - had his shorts on inside out and said, "Hey, everyone laugh at Ryan. He has his shorts on inside out." And all the boys laughed. Just another example to support why I believe he started the problem with the other boy. He did not see how getting everyone to laugh at Ryan was bad. He says, "I was just kidding.")
So, finally, to clarify, summarize, some of the things my son says just seem like random outbursts, while others seem understandable observation, criticism, but ones that when shared hurt people.
Oh, one final thing, I think a lot of my son's more random outbursts, obnoxious mean sayings come out of boredom. He needs a lot of stimulation - intellectual and physical - and we can't keep up with that need. He chooses to spend his mornings in front of the computer, and after a while I think he's almost busting out of his body. We used to say, when people would say we should make him sit in his high chair that we couldn't because we knew he would combust, or his head would blow off. He's a bundle of energy.
What can I do to help my son? I know his heart, and although he acts like such a jerk I know how he cares about people. He loves animals, and babies, and feels joy when others are joyful. He is sooooo hard to live with, and I am so sad how he hurts others. (Especially his little brother.) I feel a duty to do all I can to protect others - like his teammates. But I also want to help him so he is not perceived as nothing but a jerk, and treated as such by the world.
Sandra, I'm afraid this is way too long for this list. It seems like something where all the context is important to understand and to find solutions. Maybe also this "problem" is beyond the scope of this list. I'm asking here because I know I will get responses from people who will give my son the benefit of the doubt, and not expect that I can or should just "not tolerate it," as the rest of the world would say, and where people will offer creative "solutions" that I have not yet considered.
Thanks,
Maura
Sandra Dodd
It IS really long. I have some questions.
-=Sandra, I'm afraid this is way too long for this list. It seems
like something where all the context is important to understand and to
find solutions. Maybe also this "problem" is beyond the scope of this
list. I'm asking here because I know I will get responses from people
who will give my son the benefit of the doubt, and not expect that I
can or should just "not tolerate it," as the rest of the world would
say, and where people will offer creative "solutions" that I have not
yet considered.-=-
I don't think you should tolerate it.
-=- I'm asking here because I know I will get responses from people
who will give my son the benefit of the doubt,=-
What doubt?
Tourette's isn't directed comments to people. It's more like a tic,
like a word or phrase repeated without direction. If he's
directing meaningful words toward individuals, I don't think that's
Tourette's.
-=- My son is ten. He has always had less than average impulse
control, and seems to also just have a lot more impulses than many
kids. He's matured over the years in many ways...-=-
How long has he been unschooled?
-=- He's always calling his friends stupid, "You're so stupid. How
could you not know that?!" But I must say, I hear a lot of the friends
talk like this to each other too, but it does feel like he's worse.-=-
"Always" is too much. If one of my kids called a friend "stupid," I
would pull my child aside immediately and say it's not okay to say
"stupid." That was the worst word of all at our house. It's rarely
said about any person or thing or idea. It's just too negative and
crushing, and says more about the speaker than the target.
-=-A recent "last straw," although it feels like last straws many
days, was this weekend after his soccer game a mom of a teammate came
up to him and laid into him, saying, "Jesse, you need to stop
criticizing your teammates. I've heard you since the beginning of the
season, and we talked to the coach at the beginning of the season, and
you haven't stopped. I hear you out there constantly criticizing my
son and the others, and......." And on and on some.-=-
What was Jesse's reaction?
-=-I did talk to her after, and told her I understand her frustration,
but wished she had come to me, and not confronted him directly -=-
Why? She must had seen you were unable to persuade him. She said she
had already talked to the coach, and that didn't help either.
-=-I talked to him, and he says the kid is mean to him, always was.
The mom said that her son has been fed up with him since early on, and
so has since not been nice. My son *does not see* how things like,
"Why didn't you pass it?" are critical and hurt people or make them
mad.-=-
Had you not seen the behavior earlier in the season?
Did you consider pulling him from the activity, to protect others from
him, and to protect his own reputation?
My best ideas are to talk to him about making choices, and to ask him
to rephrase this: "He says, "I was just kidding.""
Ask him what he means by "kidding." Maybe he's just not thinking
about what he's saying. If he says "Stupid" say What do you mean by
'stupid'?
If he's parroting phrases and not thinking about what he's saying,
that's important to know.
Maybe talk to him about making choices, too, before he speaks. If
he's not able to think before he speaks, maybe he should be
discouraged from speaking for a while, until he and you can work
through some ideas about thinking of two choices and making the better
choice.
I don't recommend that your son listen to this, but that you listen to
it and think of ways to make some examples for him:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
the audio part at the bottom
Is Jesse adopted?
Is there a possibility of fetal alcohol syndrome?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=Sandra, I'm afraid this is way too long for this list. It seems
like something where all the context is important to understand and to
find solutions. Maybe also this "problem" is beyond the scope of this
list. I'm asking here because I know I will get responses from people
who will give my son the benefit of the doubt, and not expect that I
can or should just "not tolerate it," as the rest of the world would
say, and where people will offer creative "solutions" that I have not
yet considered.-=-
I don't think you should tolerate it.
-=- I'm asking here because I know I will get responses from people
who will give my son the benefit of the doubt,=-
What doubt?
Tourette's isn't directed comments to people. It's more like a tic,
like a word or phrase repeated without direction. If he's
directing meaningful words toward individuals, I don't think that's
Tourette's.
-=- My son is ten. He has always had less than average impulse
control, and seems to also just have a lot more impulses than many
kids. He's matured over the years in many ways...-=-
How long has he been unschooled?
-=- He's always calling his friends stupid, "You're so stupid. How
could you not know that?!" But I must say, I hear a lot of the friends
talk like this to each other too, but it does feel like he's worse.-=-
"Always" is too much. If one of my kids called a friend "stupid," I
would pull my child aside immediately and say it's not okay to say
"stupid." That was the worst word of all at our house. It's rarely
said about any person or thing or idea. It's just too negative and
crushing, and says more about the speaker than the target.
-=-A recent "last straw," although it feels like last straws many
days, was this weekend after his soccer game a mom of a teammate came
up to him and laid into him, saying, "Jesse, you need to stop
criticizing your teammates. I've heard you since the beginning of the
season, and we talked to the coach at the beginning of the season, and
you haven't stopped. I hear you out there constantly criticizing my
son and the others, and......." And on and on some.-=-
What was Jesse's reaction?
-=-I did talk to her after, and told her I understand her frustration,
but wished she had come to me, and not confronted him directly -=-
Why? She must had seen you were unable to persuade him. She said she
had already talked to the coach, and that didn't help either.
-=-I talked to him, and he says the kid is mean to him, always was.
The mom said that her son has been fed up with him since early on, and
so has since not been nice. My son *does not see* how things like,
"Why didn't you pass it?" are critical and hurt people or make them
mad.-=-
Had you not seen the behavior earlier in the season?
Did you consider pulling him from the activity, to protect others from
him, and to protect his own reputation?
My best ideas are to talk to him about making choices, and to ask him
to rephrase this: "He says, "I was just kidding.""
Ask him what he means by "kidding." Maybe he's just not thinking
about what he's saying. If he says "Stupid" say What do you mean by
'stupid'?
If he's parroting phrases and not thinking about what he's saying,
that's important to know.
Maybe talk to him about making choices, too, before he speaks. If
he's not able to think before he speaks, maybe he should be
discouraged from speaking for a while, until he and you can work
through some ideas about thinking of two choices and making the better
choice.
I don't recommend that your son listen to this, but that you listen to
it and think of ways to make some examples for him:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
the audio part at the bottom
Is Jesse adopted?
Is there a possibility of fetal alcohol syndrome?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
maura,
i just wanted to say that my son, also 10, has been very similar - at times - in all the ways you mention - the impulse control, the lack of understanding of impact on others, the mean words - AND in the "positive" ways - the insightfulness, sensitivity to nuance, etc.
it is *exhausting* to say the least, to live with such a firecracker, and to help him grow and thrive while minimizing damage to relationships and most importantly, in my experience, to his own self image/self esteem.
i agree that it shouldn't "just be tolerated" (although i understand how hard it is to continuously address it in a positive/proactive way), but i also wanted to say that in my experience, it was necessary to *significantly* "pull inward" for about a year (and still we are very selective about what we participate in) - we don't do anything, really, that puts him in a situation to be challenged beyond what he can handle and still be moderately "appropriate" with other people. it's pretty easy for us because my son has no interest in team sports or groups of kids.
i found that the constant negative feedback with regard to his impulse control issues and intense feelings was incredibly erosive to his self esteem and it fed the cycle you described of "clowning" and even more scornful or hurtful/aggravating behavior, because he felt uncomfortable, embarrassed, or bad about himself.
i have found that over time, as his life has been simplified more and more, and there has been less and less exposure to that negative feedback, he's been more and more receptive to non-confrontational, but honest conversation about my preferences for how he talks to me, etc, and, on his own, he's doing more and more self-checking, or self-correction after the fact, and can hear alternatives from me more as well. things have gotten significantly better with name calling and other issues.
the last thing that i have found that's been helpful in our own home is to just be more quiet myself in my interactions with him. i noticed that i was trying to interact/connect around things and perhaps wasn't quite hitting the mark, and he felt, maybe, misunderstood, or alone and would lash out with "stupid" comments. my silent or listening presence seems much more appreciated than my joking, analogizing, or even just many "normal" conversational interactions. i noticed when i tuned in i could understand the "triggers" for the name calling or mean words.
anyhow - it never "worked" with my son to just pull him aside and tell him something was mean and wasn't ok. i have always had to work very hard to understand the *need* behind his behavior and address that, in addition to, or instead of, talking to him about the issue.
i also wonder how long you've been unschooling, although i know several unschooling families with similar intense kids, so although we are new to unschooling, i still think there are some temperamental/constitutional elements to this scenario as well as just parenting and school history.
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
i just wanted to say that my son, also 10, has been very similar - at times - in all the ways you mention - the impulse control, the lack of understanding of impact on others, the mean words - AND in the "positive" ways - the insightfulness, sensitivity to nuance, etc.
it is *exhausting* to say the least, to live with such a firecracker, and to help him grow and thrive while minimizing damage to relationships and most importantly, in my experience, to his own self image/self esteem.
i agree that it shouldn't "just be tolerated" (although i understand how hard it is to continuously address it in a positive/proactive way), but i also wanted to say that in my experience, it was necessary to *significantly* "pull inward" for about a year (and still we are very selective about what we participate in) - we don't do anything, really, that puts him in a situation to be challenged beyond what he can handle and still be moderately "appropriate" with other people. it's pretty easy for us because my son has no interest in team sports or groups of kids.
i found that the constant negative feedback with regard to his impulse control issues and intense feelings was incredibly erosive to his self esteem and it fed the cycle you described of "clowning" and even more scornful or hurtful/aggravating behavior, because he felt uncomfortable, embarrassed, or bad about himself.
i have found that over time, as his life has been simplified more and more, and there has been less and less exposure to that negative feedback, he's been more and more receptive to non-confrontational, but honest conversation about my preferences for how he talks to me, etc, and, on his own, he's doing more and more self-checking, or self-correction after the fact, and can hear alternatives from me more as well. things have gotten significantly better with name calling and other issues.
the last thing that i have found that's been helpful in our own home is to just be more quiet myself in my interactions with him. i noticed that i was trying to interact/connect around things and perhaps wasn't quite hitting the mark, and he felt, maybe, misunderstood, or alone and would lash out with "stupid" comments. my silent or listening presence seems much more appreciated than my joking, analogizing, or even just many "normal" conversational interactions. i noticed when i tuned in i could understand the "triggers" for the name calling or mean words.
anyhow - it never "worked" with my son to just pull him aside and tell him something was mean and wasn't ok. i have always had to work very hard to understand the *need* behind his behavior and address that, in addition to, or instead of, talking to him about the issue.
i also wonder how long you've been unschooling, although i know several unschooling families with similar intense kids, so although we are new to unschooling, i still think there are some temperamental/constitutional elements to this scenario as well as just parenting and school history.
warmly, Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kris
Almost a mirror image of my son, Jonathan. He is 11 now but and a year ago
he was behaving just like this. A year later now he is still impulsive but
MUCH less hurtful with his words.
I used to say something but finally quit, for the most part. When the
subject would come up naturally I would tell him how it hurt. One time he
called me a horrible name and I cried, it was unexpected and I had never
responded like that before. I was even more surprised by his reaction,
initially he mocked me but later let me know that he felt horrible.
Since this he has curtailed his insults and seldom says anything hurtful to
family members, he's rude to friends his age but they seem to be the same
way. There was only one change and that was with me, I quit the sighing and
"reminders" which (I realize now) implied blame and were just irritating.
It was the only thing I was sure of at the time, I knew how the folks her
would advise me. Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to "teach"
him, give up the role of his reminder. In retrospect it was his bond with
us that curbed his behavior and I think that the "reminding" and "teaching"
only acted as an interference with that bond.
I had to stop protecting him from other's reactions. He reached a point of
maturity where I knew he "got" why people were upset and stepped back. We
had talked about this and I let him know that I couldn't stand between him
and the consequences of his choices. I'm not saying I wouldn't protect him
physically, just allow reality happen. Because I was consistent by not
trying to "teach" or remind I think he made a realistic leap to calculating
possible reactions because he hasn't gone off on anyone outside of trusted
friends and family and very little of that.
Kris
he was behaving just like this. A year later now he is still impulsive but
MUCH less hurtful with his words.
I used to say something but finally quit, for the most part. When the
subject would come up naturally I would tell him how it hurt. One time he
called me a horrible name and I cried, it was unexpected and I had never
responded like that before. I was even more surprised by his reaction,
initially he mocked me but later let me know that he felt horrible.
Since this he has curtailed his insults and seldom says anything hurtful to
family members, he's rude to friends his age but they seem to be the same
way. There was only one change and that was with me, I quit the sighing and
"reminders" which (I realize now) implied blame and were just irritating.
It was the only thing I was sure of at the time, I knew how the folks her
would advise me. Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to "teach"
him, give up the role of his reminder. In retrospect it was his bond with
us that curbed his behavior and I think that the "reminding" and "teaching"
only acted as an interference with that bond.
I had to stop protecting him from other's reactions. He reached a point of
maturity where I knew he "got" why people were upset and stepped back. We
had talked about this and I let him know that I couldn't stand between him
and the consequences of his choices. I'm not saying I wouldn't protect him
physically, just allow reality happen. Because I was consistent by not
trying to "teach" or remind I think he made a realistic leap to calculating
possible reactions because he hasn't gone off on anyone outside of trusted
friends and family and very little of that.
Kris
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 8:19 PM, mauratracy <Maura@...> wrote:
> H there. My son is ten. He has always had less than average impulse
> control, and seems to also just have a lot more impulses than many kids.
> He's matured over the years in many ways to where his physical impulses are
> more often just to bang on things, fiddle with things, etc., and not used
> against others *as much*.
>
> .
>
>
>
--
If God is satisfied with the work, the work may be satisfied with itself.
CS Lewis
I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mauratracy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I have, though, made some choices to control an environment or activity knowing it would not be a good fit, and I totally get the need to protect his reputation. Problem is, and this refers also to Lyla's thoughts about pulling in some, and keeping her son away from many things, Jesse is and always has been what I've called "hyper-social." He, even from when he was little, seemed to need to be out in the world, doing stuff, and being with friends. Even if he is a bit of a bull in a china shop, it doesn't seem a viable solution to keep the bull in the house, or to keep the bull away from the activities he loves and needs. (He needs the physical outlets, not saying he needs soccer, per se.)
I will share with you a recent time when I considered skipping an activity I knew he'd love (if it went well) because he had some (not a lot, but maybe enough to warrant protecting others and his reputation as you say) trouble last year. After much consideration decided to go ahead, and he had no problems. It's hard when he's maturing, because I don't know what to expect.
> I have some questions.We did a very relaxed school at home for Kinder, when he was six. We unschooled academically since then, but only fully did away with some traditional parenting practices like taking away privileges about 2 1/2 years ago.
> How long has he been unschooled?
>I have said this many times. It doesn't change his behavior.
> If one of my kids called a friend "stupid," I
> would pull my child aside immediately and say it's not okay to say
> "stupid."
>He only said "OK." Then, when we walked away, he said to me, "I hate that kid. He's so mean," and went on to tell me a story of what the kid did once.
> -=-A recent "last straw," although it feels like last straws many
> days, was this weekend after his soccer game a mom of a teammate came
> up to him and laid into him, saying, "Jesse, you need to stop
> criticizing your teammates. I've heard you since the beginning of the
> season, and we talked to the coach at the beginning of the season, and
> you haven't stopped. I hear you out there constantly criticizing my
> son and the others, and......." And on and on some.-=-
>
> What was Jesse's reaction?
>Well, she never said a word to me, and I had no idea there was a problem. Jesse says the coach never said anything to him. While I obviously know Jesse can behave this way, I never heard it, and never miss his games.
> -=-I did talk to her after, and told her I understand her frustration,
> but wished she had come to me, and not confronted him directly -=-
>
> Why? She must had seen you were unable to persuade him. She said she
> had already talked to the coach, and that didn't help either.
>No, I did not see this behavior, except that I know how he thinks, and what he shares with me. He's super critical, and always compares everyone. He talks about who is the worst player, and shares his criticisms of other with us after games and practices. He also, though, does talk about how good some players are.
> -=-I talked to him, and he says the kid is mean to him, always was.
> The mom said that her son has been fed up with him since early on, and
> so has since not been nice. My son *does not see* how things like,
> "Why didn't you pass it?" are critical and hurt people or make them
> mad.-=-
>
> Had you not seen the behavior earlier in the season?
> Did you consider pulling him from the activity, to protect others fromNot at all. Not this season or any recent season. I see the way kids banter, and didn't know he was going too far....except for what I wrote about the one boy. I wouldn't thought of pulling him. To me it's not that black and white, not so glaring. That's what's so tough about him, always has been....he's challenging, but not enough to say, "Well, my son has - fill in the blank - and can't play team sports," or something. If he calls a teammate an idiot (not saying he did) once, it might not necessitate pulling him, and not if he says it twice, but what about if he says it three times? Do you see the difficulty?
> him, and to protect his own reputation?
I have, though, made some choices to control an environment or activity knowing it would not be a good fit, and I totally get the need to protect his reputation. Problem is, and this refers also to Lyla's thoughts about pulling in some, and keeping her son away from many things, Jesse is and always has been what I've called "hyper-social." He, even from when he was little, seemed to need to be out in the world, doing stuff, and being with friends. Even if he is a bit of a bull in a china shop, it doesn't seem a viable solution to keep the bull in the house, or to keep the bull away from the activities he loves and needs. (He needs the physical outlets, not saying he needs soccer, per se.)
I will share with you a recent time when I considered skipping an activity I knew he'd love (if it went well) because he had some (not a lot, but maybe enough to warrant protecting others and his reputation as you say) trouble last year. After much consideration decided to go ahead, and he had no problems. It's hard when he's maturing, because I don't know what to expect.
>I know what he means. It's his way of trying to take it back, act like he didn't really mean what he said.
>
> My best ideas are to talk to him about making choices, and to ask him
> to rephrase this: "He says, "I was just kidding.""
>
> Ask him what he means by "kidding."
>Maybe he's just not thinkingYes.
> about what he's saying.
>If he says "Stupid" say What do you mean byYes, it's funny, because he's very bright, but he surely doesn't have a very good vocabulary for expressing himself. Everything is gay or stupid. (He recently got to listen in on a very long conversation I had with a lesbian friend about how offensive it is to her that kids use the word gay the way they do.....you know what, I think he may be saying that a little less...)
> 'stupid'?
>That's for sure what he's doing, that and then habit.
> If he's parroting phrases and not thinking about what he's saying,
> that's important to know.
>I'm sorry, but I laughed big time when I read this. Anyone who knows Jesse would laugh out loud too. I can't imagine how to discourage Jesse from speaking. I'm not unwilling, I just need to know what that would look like.
> Maybe talk to him about making choices, too, before he speaks. If
> he's not able to think before he speaks, maybe he should be
> discouraged from speaking for a while, until he and you can work
> through some ideas about thinking of two choices and making the better
> choice.
> I don't recommend that your son listen to this, but that you listen toI will listen to it tonight. I wanted to answer your questions.
> it and think of ways to make some examples for him:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
> the audio part at the bottom
>No, and in fact, he is a lot like me and his dad....
> Is Jesse adopted?
> Is there a possibility of fetal alcohol syndrome?No. Maybe had he been conceived when I was in my twenties, but no....hahaha.
>Thanks for your time so far.
> Sandra
>
mauratracy
Hi Lyla, and any friend of Pam T's is a friend of mine!
Thank you. I receive some much needed empathy from your post. I will respond to some of what you said.
Thank you. I receive some much needed empathy from your post. I will respond to some of what you said.
--- In [email protected], "Lyla Wolfenstein" <lylaw@...> wrote:
> it is *exhausting* to say the least, to live with such a firecracker, and to help him grow and thrive while minimizing damage to relationships and most importantly, in my experience, to his own self image/self esteem.
Yes, this is huge to me, and I think damage has already been done that I did not protect him from when he was younger. And admittedly I am sure I have inflicted some myself in my exasperation. He went to one pre-school for a few months that wasn't a good experience. Then he went to another where the teacher got him, and was awesome with him, but I think the feedback he got from some peers was harmful.
Then he went to Kindergarten for three weeks or a month - I forget now - and that was really bad. But he also has always been involved in things, homeschool groups, where he had a lot of problems in one particular group, sports where he did OK, and lots of play with neighborhood kids. I'm sure he got problematic feedback from all these experiences, but with a kid who begged for things, people, I don't know what I could've done to sufficiently protect him. I know I could have done some things differently, but I can't imagine that I could've or could now, keep him away from experiences that might give him negative feedback.
But that said, I can and will give more thought to this issue. I used to think about it a lot more, and have thought about these things less as he's matures and gotten to much better, but maybe I need to not let my guard down.
> i agree that it shouldn't "just be tolerated" (although i understand how hard it is to >continuously address it in a positive/proactive way),
That's a huge understatement.
>but i also wanted to say that in my experience, it was necessary to *significantly* "pull >inward" for about a year (and still we are very selective about what we participate in) - >we don't do anything, really, that puts him in a situation to be challenged beyond what >he can handle and still be moderately "appropriate" with other people.
Yes, as I said above, I will try to make more choices about activites more conscious with this in mind.
>it's pretty easy for us because my son has no interest in team sports or groups of kids.
No the case for us at all. Jesse may be about done with soccer - I have the feeling - after six years, but he just started wrestling, and is, so far, loving it. He badgered me to sign him up, not that I wouldn't, he just badgered to make sure I was going to do it....and, well, because he badgers about most things...
> the last thing that i have found that's been helpful in our own home is to just be more >quiet myself in my interactions with him.
I think the opposite would be said about Jesse. He may, if anything, need more from me.
> i noticed when i tuned in i could understand the "triggers" for the name calling or mean words.
This may be helpful for me...to see if there are triggers...maybe thing are not as random as they seem.
>
>
> i also wonder how long you've been unschooling, although i know several unschooling >families with similar intense kids, so although we are new to unschooling, i still think >there are some temperamental/constitutional elements to this scenario as well as just >parenting and school history.
I think his issues are very constitutional, as you say, but our/my parenting may have not always helped....but may have also helped in some ways...he surely could've been worse off in a strict, authoritarian home.
Thank you Lyla!
mauratracy
Hi Kris. Thanks for your reply. I receive a lot of empathy hearing from others with similar kids.
--- In [email protected], Kris <kris1956@...> wrote:
> There was only one change and that was with me, I quit the sighing and
> "reminders" which (I realize now) implied blame and were just irritating.
I see this (the implied blame), and if I'm capable, may want to see if this can help us, but it seems counter to what others may say - not sure yet - and so will take it all in, and see.
> In retrospect it was his bond with
> us that curbed his behavior and I think that the "reminding" and "teaching"
> only acted as an interference with that bond.
This may be really helpful for me to have heard. Jesse and I have a deep bond, but I do wonder how much tension it will bear.
Thanks Kris.
[email protected]
I've found with my high energy 10 year old, that kind of behavior tends to
be a request for closeness. His strong points are not social niceties and
social cues *right now*, so a lot of what you're saying is familiar. For Wyl,
more one-on-one time with me, snuggling and together time (especially at night
time) seem to be what he craves. He doesn't seem to know how to ask for it
(or maybe even that he *is* craving it) and it comes out in harsh tones of
voice and language. The more I try to explain or point out or cope with it more
"intellectually", the worse it gets. If I stop and give him a big hug and talk
about what we might do together now (rarely does he want to stop in the
middle of the day to do something) or later, the intenseness ebbs. After a few
nights or so of intense one-on-one time, his cup seems to be filled. I am
getting better at judging when to "top off" his cup before it gets too low, but
sometimes we still need to adjust.
It seems that he has too much going on in his head and in his high-energy
activities to tolerate a whole lot of snuggling and one-on-one... Kind of like
his eating. He gets to involved to eat food that's right there next to him,
even with suggestions, sometimes, and his blood sugar gets out of whack and he
needs to eat some simple carbs backed up with some protein and complex carbs
to balance it out. Eventually, he'll learn to balance "go, go, go!" with
replenishment-be it emotional, mental or fuel-and things won't be so much like a
roller coaster. In the meantime, I can help him recognize hints and warning
signals and help him remember the solutions, and help him get the solutions. I
also have to learn where the balance is between accepting the refusal of the
remedy and the need to press for the remedy before things get "to the
breaking point".
It took me a long time to "get" that the same old "remedy" (talking it out,
reminders) was not the right solution for Wyl in these instances, and
sometimes I still slip into them before I remember what really works. At some point,
I may need some more trial-and-error solution-finding if what works now
becomes ineffective... As I've heard said before, it's all a dance... ebb and
flow.
Peace,
De
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be a request for closeness. His strong points are not social niceties and
social cues *right now*, so a lot of what you're saying is familiar. For Wyl,
more one-on-one time with me, snuggling and together time (especially at night
time) seem to be what he craves. He doesn't seem to know how to ask for it
(or maybe even that he *is* craving it) and it comes out in harsh tones of
voice and language. The more I try to explain or point out or cope with it more
"intellectually", the worse it gets. If I stop and give him a big hug and talk
about what we might do together now (rarely does he want to stop in the
middle of the day to do something) or later, the intenseness ebbs. After a few
nights or so of intense one-on-one time, his cup seems to be filled. I am
getting better at judging when to "top off" his cup before it gets too low, but
sometimes we still need to adjust.
It seems that he has too much going on in his head and in his high-energy
activities to tolerate a whole lot of snuggling and one-on-one... Kind of like
his eating. He gets to involved to eat food that's right there next to him,
even with suggestions, sometimes, and his blood sugar gets out of whack and he
needs to eat some simple carbs backed up with some protein and complex carbs
to balance it out. Eventually, he'll learn to balance "go, go, go!" with
replenishment-be it emotional, mental or fuel-and things won't be so much like a
roller coaster. In the meantime, I can help him recognize hints and warning
signals and help him remember the solutions, and help him get the solutions. I
also have to learn where the balance is between accepting the refusal of the
remedy and the need to press for the remedy before things get "to the
breaking point".
It took me a long time to "get" that the same old "remedy" (talking it out,
reminders) was not the right solution for Wyl in these instances, and
sometimes I still slip into them before I remember what really works. At some point,
I may need some more trial-and-error solution-finding if what works now
becomes ineffective... As I've heard said before, it's all a dance... ebb and
flow.
Peace,
De
**************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
warblwarbl2000
<<<He is 11 now but and a year ago
he was behaving just like this.>>>
I was thinking along these lines, too, Maura. I'm on my 2nd 10 year old boy now and I have this sense that their powerful-ness grows earlier than their ability to control it. Kind of the way their feet grow first. <g> I have seen my kids play around with their power, relatively unconcerned with the consequences, between about ages 6 and 10. They're getting a certain competence in the world but maybe not getting the social ramifications ahead of time. Even with MUCH guidance, it took a certain maturing to have the power and also control it. For my first, 11 was a big shift. I'm sure it happens at different times for different kids.
Pam
he was behaving just like this.>>>
I was thinking along these lines, too, Maura. I'm on my 2nd 10 year old boy now and I have this sense that their powerful-ness grows earlier than their ability to control it. Kind of the way their feet grow first. <g> I have seen my kids play around with their power, relatively unconcerned with the consequences, between about ages 6 and 10. They're getting a certain competence in the world but maybe not getting the social ramifications ahead of time. Even with MUCH guidance, it took a certain maturing to have the power and also control it. For my first, 11 was a big shift. I'm sure it happens at different times for different kids.
Pam
warblwarbl2000
<< I'm sure it happens at different times for different kids.>>
(Replying to myself) And I'm sure that some kids get it the other way around, the social before the power. (And I wouldn't be surprised to see a gender correlation there...so makes it harder for us moms.)
Pam
(Replying to myself) And I'm sure that some kids get it the other way around, the social before the power. (And I wouldn't be surprised to see a gender correlation there...so makes it harder for us moms.)
Pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-The context of these things is totally random. He shouts them out
out of no where, or in response to simple questions like, "What do you
want to eat?"=-
I have another question.
What was he doing when the question was asked? Or why can't food be
put where he can see it and smell it without asking what he wants?
Are meals on a schedule and is he hungry? Was he asked to stop
playing a video game to eat? Is he out in the car against his well
and then asked what he wants to eat?
Sometimes when a story is brought to this list, the context is too
small a window. The story starts after the child is already
frustrated, and not back before he felt like lashing out.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
out of no where, or in response to simple questions like, "What do you
want to eat?"=-
I have another question.
What was he doing when the question was asked? Or why can't food be
put where he can see it and smell it without asking what he wants?
Are meals on a schedule and is he hungry? Was he asked to stop
playing a video game to eat? Is he out in the car against his well
and then asked what he wants to eat?
Sometimes when a story is brought to this list, the context is too
small a window. The story starts after the child is already
frustrated, and not back before he felt like lashing out.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> My best ideas are to talk to him about making choices, and to ask
him
like he didn't really mean what he said. -=-
I understand all that.
If you ask HIM what he means by "kidding" and have an honest, deep
discussion about what "kidding" is (it's not nice), and about other
ways he could think of what he had done, it might help.
He should not HAVE an easy way to "take it back" or act like it didn't
happen.
It did happen and it will never UNhappen, and it's your job as a mom
to help him understand that.
If you're letting him get by with the magical delete of "just
kidding," you're being his partner, but not in a good way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
him
> to rephrase this: "He says, "I was just kidding.""-=-I know what he means. It's his way of trying to take it back, act
>
> Ask him what he means by "kidding."
like he didn't really mean what he said. -=-
I understand all that.
If you ask HIM what he means by "kidding" and have an honest, deep
discussion about what "kidding" is (it's not nice), and about other
ways he could think of what he had done, it might help.
He should not HAVE an easy way to "take it back" or act like it didn't
happen.
It did happen and it will never UNhappen, and it's your job as a mom
to help him understand that.
If you're letting him get by with the magical delete of "just
kidding," you're being his partner, but not in a good way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It was the only thing I was sure of at the time, I knew how the
folks her
would advise me. Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to "teach"
him, give up the role of his reminder. -=-
I wouldn't have said that.
-=- Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to "teach" him-=-
Yes, I might've said that.
-=-give up the role of his reminder.-=-
I wouldn't have said that. When parents ignore problems, they give
tacit approval.
When parents take a problem out of the house and ignore it in public,
they give tacit approval for the harm that comes to others. More than
that, they aid and abet the abusive person. They team up with an
abuser.
There are things that don't work. Yelling and hitting don't help.
"The role of reminder" implies that the problem goes on and on and on
and on the same way, with the parent giving the same reminders over
and over and over and over. Part of being genuine is finding words to
say that communicate what the problem is and WHY it needs to stop, and
what the parent will change until it does stop.
If my husband called people stupid and asked other people to laugh at
others, I wouldn't go to parties with him. I wouldn't invite people
over to our house.
If I had a best friend who said things like "Duh," "Shut the frick
up," "You're fat," "Stupid lady," or "You're such an idiot," I
wouldn't meet them in public for lunch, and I wouldn't invite other
people over to hang out at the same time, but it's not a good
example. I wouldn't HAVE a friend who said things like that, not
without me saying clearly and unequivocably that she needed to STOP
being that way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
folks her
would advise me. Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to "teach"
him, give up the role of his reminder. -=-
I wouldn't have said that.
-=- Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to "teach" him-=-
Yes, I might've said that.
-=-give up the role of his reminder.-=-
I wouldn't have said that. When parents ignore problems, they give
tacit approval.
When parents take a problem out of the house and ignore it in public,
they give tacit approval for the harm that comes to others. More than
that, they aid and abet the abusive person. They team up with an
abuser.
There are things that don't work. Yelling and hitting don't help.
"The role of reminder" implies that the problem goes on and on and on
and on the same way, with the parent giving the same reminders over
and over and over and over. Part of being genuine is finding words to
say that communicate what the problem is and WHY it needs to stop, and
what the parent will change until it does stop.
If my husband called people stupid and asked other people to laugh at
others, I wouldn't go to parties with him. I wouldn't invite people
over to our house.
If I had a best friend who said things like "Duh," "Shut the frick
up," "You're fat," "Stupid lady," or "You're such an idiot," I
wouldn't meet them in public for lunch, and I wouldn't invite other
people over to hang out at the same time, but it's not a good
example. I wouldn't HAVE a friend who said things like that, not
without me saying clearly and unequivocably that she needed to STOP
being that way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> the last thing that i have found that's been helpful in our own
home is to just be more >quiet myself in my interactions with him.
-=-I think the opposite would be said about Jesse. He may, if
anything, need more from me.-=-
The suggestion wasn't to give him less attention. It was to respond to
him quietly. Gently.
The two posts thanking people for empathy suggest that you came here
for approval more than for help. I hope I'm wrong.
Some moms do want ideas for changing situations. Some moms want other
moms to say "Don't worry; it's not your fault at all."
I have this list for the former, and I have this for the latter:
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
home is to just be more >quiet myself in my interactions with him.
-=-I think the opposite would be said about Jesse. He may, if
anything, need more from me.-=-
The suggestion wasn't to give him less attention. It was to respond to
him quietly. Gently.
The two posts thanking people for empathy suggest that you came here
for approval more than for help. I hope I'm wrong.
Some moms do want ideas for changing situations. Some moms want other
moms to say "Don't worry; it's not your fault at all."
I have this list for the former, and I have this for the latter:
http://sandradodd.com/support
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-i found that the constant negative feedback with regard to his
impulse control issues and intense feelings was incredibly erosive to
his self esteem and it fed the cycle you described of "clowning" and
even more scornful or hurtful/aggravating behavior, because he felt
uncomfortable, embarrassed, or bad about himself. -=-
And that's the kind of damage school can do to kids.
Sometimes homeschooling needs to involve more home, especially for
young kids, and let them move out gradually and confidently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
impulse control issues and intense feelings was incredibly erosive to
his self esteem and it fed the cycle you described of "clowning" and
even more scornful or hurtful/aggravating behavior, because he felt
uncomfortable, embarrassed, or bad about himself. -=-
And that's the kind of damage school can do to kids.
Sometimes homeschooling needs to involve more home, especially for
young kids, and let them move out gradually and confidently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kris
Yeah, I didn't phrase this well. What I meant was that I gave up the role
of micro manager or "constant" reminder. This, in no way, means that there
wasn't consistent communication, we have many and regular conversations
about his behavior and what is not "okay". The difference is that I wait
for calm and receptive moments when he can actually "hear" me, preferably
when HE brings up the topic (he usually WANTS to talk about negative
encounters).
One of the main issues with Jonathan (and it seems the same with other kids
I've known who are like him) is that they have many times when they just
can't listen, there is way too much emotion/adrenaline. These are also the
times when they tend to lash out, it's useless to begin talking about how
other people are feeling at that time.
Yes, I do remove him from others if at all possible and have explained that
it's not fair to let people be treated badly. He understands that I won't
invite people over if he doesn't treat them well. But by a certain age and
understanding it has all been said and he knows what is harmful and why it
is harmful and that it's not okay. He also knows that just because I
haven't said something in the moment does not equal my approval.
Because of his age and understanding our conversations have moved on from
what is not okay, he knows that. It has moved on to how words impact others
and how his actions earn him a reputation and what kind of relationships he
wants to have with people. I tell him how I cringe when I hear him being
rude to a friend and how I try to see other kids with the same concern I
have for him, that I feel so much sadness that his friend might feel like he
really IS stupid.
At some point kids move beyond our immediate control and they are able to
leave and see others without us. I can't control that and I HAVE to let him
choose how things happen. Sometimes it means that he finds friends who tend
to be rude as well and I have to hope that the glaring difference between
that atmosphere and the one he knows at home will be a motivation to choose
peaceful and beneficial friendships.
With my oldest there were behavior issues but never aggression and she
became socially adept by age 6. She got how to treat people and it was
easy. Jonathan was different from day one, he was aggressive, emotional and
unaware of others feelings. I've had to learn to appreciate him in spite of
my own dismay and let him encounter the painful consequences of his actions
(natural not manufactured).
Kris
of micro manager or "constant" reminder. This, in no way, means that there
wasn't consistent communication, we have many and regular conversations
about his behavior and what is not "okay". The difference is that I wait
for calm and receptive moments when he can actually "hear" me, preferably
when HE brings up the topic (he usually WANTS to talk about negative
encounters).
One of the main issues with Jonathan (and it seems the same with other kids
I've known who are like him) is that they have many times when they just
can't listen, there is way too much emotion/adrenaline. These are also the
times when they tend to lash out, it's useless to begin talking about how
other people are feeling at that time.
Yes, I do remove him from others if at all possible and have explained that
it's not fair to let people be treated badly. He understands that I won't
invite people over if he doesn't treat them well. But by a certain age and
understanding it has all been said and he knows what is harmful and why it
is harmful and that it's not okay. He also knows that just because I
haven't said something in the moment does not equal my approval.
Because of his age and understanding our conversations have moved on from
what is not okay, he knows that. It has moved on to how words impact others
and how his actions earn him a reputation and what kind of relationships he
wants to have with people. I tell him how I cringe when I hear him being
rude to a friend and how I try to see other kids with the same concern I
have for him, that I feel so much sadness that his friend might feel like he
really IS stupid.
At some point kids move beyond our immediate control and they are able to
leave and see others without us. I can't control that and I HAVE to let him
choose how things happen. Sometimes it means that he finds friends who tend
to be rude as well and I have to hope that the glaring difference between
that atmosphere and the one he knows at home will be a motivation to choose
peaceful and beneficial friendships.
With my oldest there were behavior issues but never aggression and she
became socially adept by age 6. She got how to treat people and it was
easy. Jonathan was different from day one, he was aggressive, emotional and
unaware of others feelings. I've had to learn to appreciate him in spite of
my own dismay and let him encounter the painful consequences of his actions
(natural not manufactured).
Kris
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-It was the only thing I was sure of at the time, I knew how the
> folks her
> would advise me. Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to "teach"
> him, give up the role of his reminder. -=-
>
> I wouldn't have said that.
> -=- Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to "teach" him-=-
>
> Yes, I might've said that.
>
> -=-give up the role of his reminder.-=-
>
> I wouldn't have said that. When parents ignore problems, they give
> tacit approval.
>
> When parents take a problem out of the house and ignore it in public,
> they give tacit approval for the harm that comes to others. More than
> that, they aid and abet the abusive person. They team up with an
> abuser.
>
> There are things that don't work. Yelling and hitting don't help.
>
> "The role of reminder" implies that the problem goes on and on and on
> and on the same way, with the parent giving the same reminders over
> and over and over and over. Part of being genuine is finding words to
> say that communicate what the problem is and WHY it needs to stop, and
> what the parent will change until it does stop.
>
> If my husband called people stupid and asked other people to laugh at
> others, I wouldn't go to parties with him. I wouldn't invite people
> over to our house.
>
> If I had a best friend who said things like "Duh," "Shut the frick
> up," "You're fat," "Stupid lady," or "You're such an idiot," I
> wouldn't meet them in public for lunch, and I wouldn't invite other
> people over to hang out at the same time, but it's not a good
> example. I wouldn't HAVE a friend who said things like that, not
> without me saying clearly and unequivocably that she needed to STOP
> being that way.
>
>
> Sandra
>
--
If God is satisfied with the work, the work may be satisfied with itself.
CS Lewis
I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kris
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 11:57 PM, mauratracy <Maura@...> wrote:
my first post. I don't mean that input stops just that instead of the more
constant reminders to use deeper conversation and calmer, more receptive
moments.
could possibly continue to be around him, not that I would ever give up,
just couldn't see how I would manage. One of the things that happened to me
was while I was watching a documentary about the Spartans and the kind of
"training" they underwent from a young age.
I realized that Jonathan would endure this harshness MUCH better than I
could, that it probably would have meant death to my temperament. Even more
important I attained a new insight into how much of a struggle it is for him
to fit into a peaceful environment; the warrior learning to be a dove.
This, in a round about way, gave me a new appreciation for him and better
understanding of our differences. Our bond got stronger for many reasons
I'm sure but I have to believe that appreciation comes through and the more
I value who he is without blame the more he values others.
Kris
--
If God is satisfied with the work, the work may be satisfied with itself.
CS Lewis
I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I tried to explain myself better in a response to Sandra, I botched this in
> I see this (the implied blame), and if I'm capable, may want to see if this
> can help us, but it seems counter to what others may say - not sure yet -
> and so will take it all in, and see
my first post. I don't mean that input stops just that instead of the more
constant reminders to use deeper conversation and calmer, more receptive
moments.
>Boy, oh boy, I can relate. There have been moments when I wondered how I
>
> > In retrospect it was his bond with
> > us that curbed his behavior and I think that the "reminding" and
> "teaching"
> > only acted as an interference with that bond.
>
> This may be really helpful for me to have heard. Jesse and I have a deep
> bond, but I do wonder how much tension it will bear.
could possibly continue to be around him, not that I would ever give up,
just couldn't see how I would manage. One of the things that happened to me
was while I was watching a documentary about the Spartans and the kind of
"training" they underwent from a young age.
I realized that Jonathan would endure this harshness MUCH better than I
could, that it probably would have meant death to my temperament. Even more
important I attained a new insight into how much of a struggle it is for him
to fit into a peaceful environment; the warrior learning to be a dove.
This, in a round about way, gave me a new appreciation for him and better
understanding of our differences. Our bond got stronger for many reasons
I'm sure but I have to believe that appreciation comes through and the more
I value who he is without blame the more he values others.
Kris
--
If God is satisfied with the work, the work may be satisfied with itself.
CS Lewis
I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
>>> One thing, though, seems to have gotten worse, his impulsive wordsand expressions. He is, so I'm told by my friends, pretty good with
them, like when he's at a sleepover with them or something, he's
respectful. But at home with us, his parents and brother, he's really
tough to take. He says to us all manner of hurtful things all the time.
Examples are, "Duh." "Shut the frick up." "You're fat." "Stupid lady."
"You're such an idiot." And sings about his brother, at the top of his
lungs, "Boogie's an idiot." And please forgive me for posting this one,
it's so crass to me, but helps illustrate the extent of this issue,
"Suck my butt." >>>
A few years back, Chamille and I were meeting another mom and daughter
for the first time, in a public place. Chamille was behaving somewhat
aggressively towards me. It made me uncomfortable, even though I knew
she was doing it in a teasing sort of way. I made an excuse to find an
ATM machine and had Chamille walk with me to find it. I asked her to
please not do what she was doing because it embarrassed me and made me
uncomfortable, and that she had probably given a very unfavorable
impression of herself to these new potential friends.
She hadn't even been aware that she was doing something potentially
damaging. She stopped doing what she had been doing, and we went back
and had a pleasant rest of the visit, in which she was extra kind to me.
I honestly believe that we never saw those folks again because of that
incident.
Here's the thing, it's our job to help our kids navigate the social
world. If a kid is having difficulty doing this, perhaps the kid isn't
ready to be out there so much. If the kid is really wanting social
outlets and is still doing mean and hurtful things, the parent needs to
step in and navigate with the kid.
Margaux tends to be more like this than Chamille ever was. Some kids
are more empathic naturally than others. I still supervise and oversee
many of Margaux's social interactions, there are only a few kids that
she can navigate solo. When she starts getting mean and aggressive, I
pull her aside, lure her, or simply ask her to come with me to another
location for a minute.
I hug her up and sympathize with the situation she is dealing with, give
her a chance to explain her frustration, then we find some ways to solve
it. When she is calm again, she goes back to playing with her new
solutions in hand to use. It almost always works. Sometimes, for
whatever reason, she's too tired, too hungry, too whatever, and she gets
right back in the thick of things. When that happens, I jump in and
take over the social situation entirely. That could mean that I find a
different activity for them, or I lay out some ground rules that will
avoid the conflict.
>>> I have talked to him, when he's saying he can't help it, aboutquickly apologizing, like saying, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say
that." He never does that, but instead says, "Just kidding." I think it
hurts him/scares him so much to have this thing he can't control that
it's hard to admit, so he instead takes on this clown nature,
everything's a joke. I personally, even though I can articulate an
understanding of how this comes to be, end up seeing him sometimes as a
jerk - who would joke *like that*; it's not funny.>>>
It's only funny if everyone is laughing, otherwise, it's a bad joke. A
good comedian can gauge his audience.
>>> I did talk to her after, and told her I understand her frustration,but wished she had come to me, and not confronted him directly (they
have no relationship; we don't know her at all). She was very apologetic
for that, said she was just so upset that here her son was crying, even
after a game they won, hurt by something/s my son said.>>>
I think the other mother had every right to do that, and I think
sometimes it's extremely helpful for kids to hear from other people, not
just their parents. If the mother was kind about it, not yelling, or
shaming, she actually did your son a favor. Part of getting along in
the world is dealing with other people, and for a kid that includes not
only kids, but the parents of those kids. The other mother treated your
child as another individual, not just some kid, hence not coming to you
first.
Jenny C
--- In [email protected], "mauratracy" <Maura@...> wrote:
hard time being nice and that it wasn't fair to them if they were being
treated meanly, and that clearly Margaux needed a break. Sometimes the
break is for the rest of the day, and sometimes it only takes a few
minutes or an hour of recouping and refreshing.
everyone. He talks about who is the worst player, and shares his
criticisms of other with us after games and practices. He also, though,
does talk about how good some players are. >>>
Perhaps you need to have more dialog about sportsmanship and sports
abilities, and rephrase the way he says things so that he has a better
way to say things, than the very negative way that he does.
blank - and can't play team sports," or something. If he calls a
teammate an idiot (not saying he did) once, it might not necessitate
pulling him, and not if he says it twice, but what about if he says it
three times? Do you see the difficulty? >>>
Just because other kids banter and can treat each other cruely, does not
give ANYone else an excuse to do so too. I've told both of my girls
that they have the power to set the tone. Kids will follow positive
others just as easily as following negative others.
from speaking. I'm not unwilling, I just need to know what that would
look like. >>>
If your son says something rude or loud or insensitive, can you rephrase
it in a better way, or encourage him to see positive things in others
before the negative ones. Sometimes kids, and adults, get used to
seeing what is bad about people first, instead of what is good about
people. Everytime he says something negative you could counter it with
a "maybe, but so and so is sooo awesome at ____". Sometimes, it's true
that if you don't have something nice to say, you should say nothing at
all.
> >I've sent kids home and told them directly that Margaux was having a
> > If one of my kids called a friend "stupid," I
> > would pull my child aside immediately and say it's not okay to say
> > "stupid."
>
> I have said this many times. It doesn't change his behavior.
hard time being nice and that it wasn't fair to them if they were being
treated meanly, and that clearly Margaux needed a break. Sometimes the
break is for the rest of the day, and sometimes it only takes a few
minutes or an hour of recouping and refreshing.
>>> No, I did not see this behavior, except that I know how he thinks,and what he shares with me. He's super critical, and always compares
everyone. He talks about who is the worst player, and shares his
criticisms of other with us after games and practices. He also, though,
does talk about how good some players are. >>>
Perhaps you need to have more dialog about sportsmanship and sports
abilities, and rephrase the way he says things so that he has a better
way to say things, than the very negative way that he does.
>>>That's what's so tough about him, always has been....he'schallenging, but not enough to say, "Well, my son has - fill in the
blank - and can't play team sports," or something. If he calls a
teammate an idiot (not saying he did) once, it might not necessitate
pulling him, and not if he says it twice, but what about if he says it
three times? Do you see the difficulty? >>>
Just because other kids banter and can treat each other cruely, does not
give ANYone else an excuse to do so too. I've told both of my girls
that they have the power to set the tone. Kids will follow positive
others just as easily as following negative others.
> >>I'm sorry, but I laughed big time when I read this. Anyone who knowsJesse would laugh out loud too. I can't imagine how to discourage Jesse
from speaking. I'm not unwilling, I just need to know what that would
look like. >>>
If your son says something rude or loud or insensitive, can you rephrase
it in a better way, or encourage him to see positive things in others
before the negative ones. Sometimes kids, and adults, get used to
seeing what is bad about people first, instead of what is good about
people. Everytime he says something negative you could counter it with
a "maybe, but so and so is sooo awesome at ____". Sometimes, it's true
that if you don't have something nice to say, you should say nothing at
all.
Jenny C
>have the feeling - after six years, but he just started wrestling, and
> >>No the case for us at all. Jesse may be about done with soccer - I
is, so far, loving it. He badgered me to sign him up, not that I
wouldn't, he just badgered to make sure I was going to do it....and,
well, because he badgers about most things...>>>
If a kid is doing this, it is a clear sign that the parent isn't nearly
proactive enough or proactive quickly enough. That needs to change,
that piece of the puzzle could solve a lot of the other dynamics as
well.
> > the last thing that i have found that's been helpful in our own homeis to just be more >quiet myself in my interactions with him.
>need more from me.>>>
> I think the opposite would be said about Jesse. He may, if anything,
The "more" may not necessarily be words though, and I think that is what
Lyla was trying to get at.
Jenny C
>her
> It was the only thing I was sure of at the time, I knew how the folks
> would advise me. Be genuine, don't make up reactions in order to"teach"
> him, give up the role of his reminder. In retrospect it was his bondwith
> us that curbed his behavior and I think that the "reminding" and"teaching"
> only acted as an interference with that bond.Hmmm, I'm not sure if I would agree with not being a reminder. I do
understand not wanting to be preachy and naggy, but I do feel that if a
kid can't help themselves in social situations, then the parents DO need
to be there and remind them to behave nicely.
Jenny C
>and
> > There was only one change and that was with me, I quit the sighing
> > "reminders" which (I realize now) implied blame and were justirritating.
>this can help us, but it seems counter to what others may say - not sure
> I see this (the implied blame), and if I'm capable, may want to see if
yet - and so will take it all in, and see.
>Well, if one of my kids spilled the milk, then, "yes" without a doubt
> >
they were to blame for all the spilled milk. That doesn't mean that I
have to shame or be mean about it, it means we get a rag and clean it up
and perhaps offer another way to hold the milk jug so that the next time
it will be less likely to spill.
Joanna Murphy
One of the things that happened to me
Maura--has Jesse tried a martial art? Maybe that would be a place that would value his aggressive energy and channel it into appropriate discipline at the same time. My kids are LOVING learning how to fight--they have sparring once a week where they are encouraged to bring all the force they can muster to bear on the teachers--with appropriate padding and safety precautions.
But I have to say that I have been surprised by how encouraged aggression is, after having it be so actively discouraged in the rest of life (for obvious and good reasons!). I can see how it takes a while for new kids to click into the zone of having it be o.k. and desirable--at first they are very tentative and try not to "hurt" anyone. Then they figure out that they aren't going to hurt anyone, and in fact, that if they don't dial up the aggression, they don't progress.
Joanna
> was while I was watching a documentary about the Spartans and the kind ofInteresting comment! My kids have started karate, and I see how it feeds my daughter in one way, but it feeds my son in a different, more primal way. It's like deep senses get activated--the ones that are actively discouraged in all other instances in his life.
> "training" they underwent from a young age.
>
> I realized that Jonathan would endure this harshness MUCH better than I
> could, that it probably would have meant death to my temperament. Even more
> important I attained a new insight into how much of a struggle it is for him
> to fit into a peaceful environment; the warrior learning to be a dove.
Maura--has Jesse tried a martial art? Maybe that would be a place that would value his aggressive energy and channel it into appropriate discipline at the same time. My kids are LOVING learning how to fight--they have sparring once a week where they are encouraged to bring all the force they can muster to bear on the teachers--with appropriate padding and safety precautions.
But I have to say that I have been surprised by how encouraged aggression is, after having it be so actively discouraged in the rest of life (for obvious and good reasons!). I can see how it takes a while for new kids to click into the zone of having it be o.k. and desirable--at first they are very tentative and try not to "hurt" anyone. Then they figure out that they aren't going to hurt anyone, and in fact, that if they don't dial up the aggression, they don't progress.
Joanna
Sandra Dodd
-=-But by a certain age and
understanding it has all been said and he knows what is harmful and
why it
is harmful and that it's not okay.=-
There's "knowing" as in nodding one's head and agreeing, or even being
able to recite it back, and KNOWING which is being able to access that
knowledge and act in light of what one really does know in a useful way.
Holly knows that if she gets all keyed up and full of adrenaline, that
she can consciously breathe in such a way that the adrenaline is
dissipated.
She could pass a test on that question. She could advise others. She
fails much more often than not to put that knowledge to use in her own
life.
-=Because of his age and understanding our conversations have moved on
from
what is not okay, he knows that. It has moved on to how words impact
others
and how his actions earn him a reputation and what kind of
relationships he
wants to have with people. =-
Couldn't it have started there, though? Even with toddlers there are
real reasons for being nice and being gentle. The reasons are more
important than anything else. That's principles over rules, right
there.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
understanding it has all been said and he knows what is harmful and
why it
is harmful and that it's not okay.=-
There's "knowing" as in nodding one's head and agreeing, or even being
able to recite it back, and KNOWING which is being able to access that
knowledge and act in light of what one really does know in a useful way.
Holly knows that if she gets all keyed up and full of adrenaline, that
she can consciously breathe in such a way that the adrenaline is
dissipated.
She could pass a test on that question. She could advise others. She
fails much more often than not to put that knowledge to use in her own
life.
-=Because of his age and understanding our conversations have moved on
from
what is not okay, he knows that. It has moved on to how words impact
others
and how his actions earn him a reputation and what kind of
relationships he
wants to have with people. =-
Couldn't it have started there, though? Even with toddlers there are
real reasons for being nice and being gentle. The reasons are more
important than anything else. That's principles over rules, right
there.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mauratracy
--- In [email protected], Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
Thanks De.
>This is a very helpful reminder for me.
> I've found with my high energy 10 year old, that kind of behavior tends to
> be a request for closeness.
> IThis too is helpful. It's hard to know, though, when to press for things, as you say.
> also have to learn where the balance is between accepting the refusal of the
> remedy and the need to press for the remedy before things get "to the
> breaking point".
Thanks De.
mauratracy
Thanks Pam. It gives me some hope that some of this may have a developmental component for some kids.......and no, this does not mean I will just ignore it and wait for him to grow up, though. I'm still reading for tools and ideas that I haven't thought of.
Maura
Maura
--- In [email protected], "warblwarbl2000" <pamtellew@...> wrote:
I'm on my 2nd 10 year old boy now and I have this sense that their powerful-ness grows earlier than their ability to control it. Kind of the way their feet grow first. <g> I have seen my kids play around with their power, relatively unconcerned with the consequences, between about ages 6 and 10.
Kris
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
a moment like this but not my son, it would be an irritant. He responds to
talking in a calmer moment and I try to help him head off problems but I
also have to know when it will only make it worse.
Couldn't it have started there, though? Even with toddlers there are
adapted.
Kris
--
If God is satisfied with the work, the work may be satisfied with itself.
CS Lewis
I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There's "knowing" as in nodding one's head and agreeing, or even beingWould you remind her at this point? My daughter would welcome a reminder at
> able to recite it back, and KNOWING which is being able to access that
> knowledge and act in light of what one really does know in a useful way.
>
> Holly knows that if she gets all keyed up and full of adrenaline, that
> she can consciously breathe in such a way that the adrenaline is
> dissipated.
> She could pass a test on that question. She could advise others. She
> fails much more often than not to put that knowledge to use in her own
> life.
>
a moment like this but not my son, it would be an irritant. He responds to
talking in a calmer moment and I try to help him head off problems but I
also have to know when it will only make it worse.
Couldn't it have started there, though? Even with toddlers there are
> real reasons for being nice and being gentle. The reasons are moreYup, the reasons were always part of the picture; our conversations just
> important than anything else. That's principles over rules, right
> there.
>
adapted.
Kris
--
If God is satisfied with the work, the work may be satisfied with itself.
CS Lewis
I haz a blog, u can reedz it!
www.krisspeed.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mauratracy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>It can be anything, but one example would be when he's playing on the computer, and he'll yell, "Give me food!"
> -=-The context of these things is totally random. He shouts them out
> out of no where, or in response to simple questions like, "What do you
> want to eat?"=-
>
> I have another question.
>
> What was he doing when the question was asked?
>Or why can't food beMy kids are picky, and it works to give them choice. I don't always give them choice, but for breakfast I usually do....you know, are you just wanting cereal, or do you want me to make eggs, that kind of thing.
> put where he can see it and smell it without asking what he wants?
> Are meals on a schedule and is he hungry?Meals are not on a schedule, but it could be that he's hungry, and doesn't start asking for food until he's gotten really hungry, because he's been focussed on his game.
>Was he asked to stopNo. Sometimes, when we're wanting all of us have dinner together, but not for the other meals. I'm usually fine with them eating while they play.
> playing a video game to eat?
>Is he out in the car against his wellI don't understand what you mean.
> and then asked what he wants to eat?
> Sometimes when a story is brought to this list, the context is tooI don't see his outbursts as lashing out...sometimes, but not most of the time. By lashing out I think you mean in anger, trying to hurt? I don't think that's what's going on for him. But there may be story to something that's going on with him.....I think it's more of a personal frustration or boredom *if anything*. I mean, my husband will come home from work and say "Hey bud!" And Jesse will say, "You stink." It's really random, inane stuff that seems to not have connection to anything....except as I've said, boredom, and bad habit. (Not sure I said the habit part.)
> small a window. The story starts after the child is already
> frustrated, and not back before he felt like lashing out.
mauratracy
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I'm not saying this defensively. It's something I've struggled with. What can we expect the world to "take." What do we have an obligation to protect others' from? And what about the fact that many people can handle things, and some people are more sensitive to things? How do we know that this kid in particular, or this mom, in this soccer case, aren't very sheltered and sensitive? I'm totally not saying anything he said was OK, I'm just saying, wondering...we can't always judge the appropriateness of our kids behaviors by others' reactions to them. I mean, if I took a poll of the kids, or was able to hear everything they all say to each other, what if I found that most people didn't care what Jesse said, and that, in fact, a number of the kids talk like that, would I then be OK letting him play on the team? I'm not asking these things literally, but just trying to explain how challenging it would be to know when to intercede, and how far to go.
Thanks,
Maura
>I understand this, but I don't know how we know where to draw the line. Aren't kids mean sometimes? I know a lot of kids who are mean sometimes. So when does a parent know that her child is a particular menace that warrants protecting the world? When we let our kids out into the world - parks, parties, sports, etc. - do we really all know that they will not say or do anything unkind?
> When parents take a problem out of the house and ignore it in public,
> they give tacit approval for the harm that comes to others. More than
> that, they aid and abet the abusive person. They team up with an
> abuser.
I'm not saying this defensively. It's something I've struggled with. What can we expect the world to "take." What do we have an obligation to protect others' from? And what about the fact that many people can handle things, and some people are more sensitive to things? How do we know that this kid in particular, or this mom, in this soccer case, aren't very sheltered and sensitive? I'm totally not saying anything he said was OK, I'm just saying, wondering...we can't always judge the appropriateness of our kids behaviors by others' reactions to them. I mean, if I took a poll of the kids, or was able to hear everything they all say to each other, what if I found that most people didn't care what Jesse said, and that, in fact, a number of the kids talk like that, would I then be OK letting him play on the team? I'm not asking these things literally, but just trying to explain how challenging it would be to know when to intercede, and how far to go.
>I have done all this, the explaining, etc.., but where I am stuck is this part: "and
> "The role of reminder" implies that the problem goes on and on and on
> and on the same way, with the parent giving the same reminders over
> and over and over and over. Part of being genuine is finding words to
> say that communicate what the problem is and WHY it needs to stop, and
> what the parent will change until it does stop.
> what the parent will change until it does stop. " Since we did away with punishment a few years ago, there are times when all the environmental manipulation (not taking him to such and such place), the talking, the listening, just haven't fixed things, and I'm left not knowing what else I can do.Nor would I. Don't get that choice here.
> If I had a best friend who said things like "Duh," "Shut the frick
> up," "You're fat," "Stupid lady," or "You're such an idiot," I
> wouldn't meet them in public for lunch, and I wouldn't invite other
> people over to hang out at the same time, but it's not a good
> example. I wouldn't HAVE a friend who said things like that
>notI'm not saying this provocatively, Sandra, I'm really wanting to understand your belief, but do you really you think if we say things unequivocably that has the power to create change in our kids? I'm not saying you are, but I'm wondering if you're implying that we have this issue because we've tolerated it?
> without me saying clearly and unequivocably that she needed to STOP
> being that way.
Thanks,
Maura