Nanci Kuykendall

>Was there greater poverty in Northern Europe that
>made additional children, especially among city
>dwellers, a burden rather than a help to their
>families, so people felt a sense of justification to
>find Biblical
>passages that supported their feelings that children
>were bad?
>Joyce

I know that Johnathan Swift (of "anglo-Irish" birth
and raised in Ireland, author of Gulliver's Travels)
wrote a satirical piece called a Modest Proposal. It
was a political satire aimed at the general upper
class attitute in England that both the Irish and
children (particularly Irish children) were
expendable. A Modest Proposal details a plan to solve
the problem of the famine in Ireland at the time.
This plan involves ridding the Irish of their extra
children, while at the same time putting meat on the
table...you get the idea. Scathing political jab.

Nanci K.



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ECHSA

Someone wrote:
> >Was there greater poverty in Northern Europe that
> >made additional children, especially among city
> >dwellers, a burden rather than a help to their
> >families, so people felt a sense of justification to
> >find Biblical passages that supported their feelings that children
> >were bad?

Golly! I would be hard pressed to find Biblical passages supporting feelings
that children were bad! Scripture is pretty consistent in its claim that
children are a blessing from God, and that unless we become like children
ourselves we will not enter His Kingdom!
But I guess people will use anything to justify a point of view.............
Regards
Cathy

Tia Leschke

>
>Golly! I would be hard pressed to find Biblical passages supporting feelings
>that children were bad! Scripture is pretty consistent in its claim that
>children are a blessing from God, and that unless we become like children
>ourselves we will not enter His Kingdom!
>But I guess people will use anything to justify a point of view.............

I had a friend years ago who had gone through all of the training to be a
La Leche League leader. She packed it in right at the end. She was only
required to believe 2 things, that breastfeeding really was best for baby
and that babies are born good and want to please their parents. As a
fundamental Christian, she said she couldn't agree with the second. To
her, babies are born bad (original sin) and have to have it beaten out of them.

We didn't stay friends.
Tia

>Regards
>Cathy
>
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No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Nancy Wooton

on 2/10/02 8:49 AM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:

>>
>> Golly! I would be hard pressed to find Biblical passages supporting feelings
>> that children were bad! Scripture is pretty consistent in its claim that
>> children are a blessing from God, and that unless we become like children
>> ourselves we will not enter His Kingdom!
>> But I guess people will use anything to justify a point of view.............
>
> I had a friend years ago who had gone through all of the training to be a
> La Leche League leader. She packed it in right at the end. She was only
> required to believe 2 things, that breastfeeding really was best for baby
> and that babies are born good and want to please their parents. As a
> fundamental Christian, she said she couldn't agree with the second. To
> her, babies are born bad (original sin) and have to have it beaten out of
> them.

Were written in response to:
>Was there greater poverty in Northern Europe that
> >made additional children, especially among city
> >dwellers, a burden rather than a help to their
> >families, so people felt a sense of justification to
> >find Biblical passages that supported their feelings that children
> >were bad?

The statement was specifically about the Bible, as was the response above.
The concept of Original Sin came a few hundred years after the last book was
penned. What the Bible actually says about children is overall rather nice,
although the attitudes some people had about them even in Jesus' day might
be viewed as impatient, at least: Jesus had to chastise his own disciples
for trying to make the kids leave, thus setting the stage for his "for of
such is the Kingdom of Heaven" statement.

I seriously doubt poor city dwellers in Northern Europe would have had
access to a Bible, or been able to read it if they did. I imagine the
attitudes about everything, not just children, were more influenced by
family, local tradition, and the Church than by individual Bible passages; a
person would be more likely to consult the parish priest than the family
Bible, I think.

If the La Leche League dropout only knew the concept she believes to be
biblical originated with a Roman Catholic named Augustine...

Nancy (reading email instead of going to church this morning: Will she go
to h - e - double hockey sticks???)

Fetteroll

on 2/10/02 1:50 PM, Nancy Wooton at Felicitas@... wrote:

> If the La Leche League dropout only knew the concept she believes to be
> biblical originated with a Roman Catholic named Augustine...

Ah, there we go. I tend to forget that many so called Biblical concepts like
the Trinity came from philosophers rather than directly from the Bible.

So what was his problem? Did he focus on children specifically or just that
everyone was born in sin?

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/02 1:06:33 PM, fetteroll@... writes:

<<
So what was his problem? Did he focus on children specifically or just that
everyone was born in sin? >>

Just the ones born as children. <g>

Because Eve succumbed to snake-temptation and influenced Adam (poor innocent
Adam, who blamed Eve forevermore, through his heirs and offspring), all
children are born in pain and sin. Bummer. Women's fault (inheriting Eve's
sin), too.

So the job of Catholic (and optionally Lutheran, Presbyterian, and other
infant-baptizing churches) parents is to get them "christened" and
spiritually cleaned up. But they might have a relapse when they get older,
so there are confirmation kinds of things.

The job of lower-Protestant (further from Catholic tradition) parents is to
control the sinful little things until they're old enough to understand and
to repent and accept Jesus on their own. But until the time that they reach
"the age of accountability" (also not a Bible quote, but a church-concept)
they're little bundles of sin.

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

on 2/10/02 1:16 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> The job of lower-Protestant (further from Catholic tradition) parents is to
> control the sinful little things until they're old enough to understand and
> to repent and accept Jesus on their own. But until the time that they reach
> "the age of accountability" (also not a Bible quote, but a church-concept)
> they're little bundles of sin.

And according to a fundy-friend, the Dad is accountable to God in their
place. Hence, beat the little stinkers so God won't beat you. (Actually,
he told his daughter God sometimes had to spank daddy; she asked if she
could watch.)

Nancy