carnationsgalore

We are not new to unschooling and my DH used to be supportive of
unschooling. He's changed his mind and has the kids enrolled in a
homeschool curriculum program. When I talked to him about it, he
said he didn't think our family was doing well with unschooling. I
was working outside the home for 5 months which gave him lots of time
with the kids. He discovered little gaps here and there that
surprised him. Also, he felt like successful unschoolers have many
different interests. He said we didn't strew enough to expose them
to different ideas and the kids didn't seem much interested in the
things we were showing them anyway.

I don't know if this is a backward step or a permanent change. What
can I do to keep the peace in the family when I want our kids to be
radical unschoolers and my husband believes in some formal learning?

I think the major attitude change is mostly due to him watching our
oldest daughter, Claire (16), struggle with whether or not to finish
high school. He seems to be suddenly worried about our 2 kids and
high school.

Beth M.

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/25/2009 2:54 PM, carnationsgalore wrote:
> I think the major attitude change is mostly due to him watching our
> oldest daughter, Claire (16), struggle with whether or not to finish
> high school. He seems to be suddenly worried about our 2 kids and
> high school.
>
> Beth M.
>
>

Sorry, Beth, this is confusing.

His concern stems from watching her struggle with whether or not to
finish high school? But, you were unschooling? So how does "finish high
school" enter into that?

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think the major attitude change is mostly due to him watching our
oldest daughter, Claire (16), struggle with whether or not to finish
high school. He seems to be suddenly worried about our 2 kids and
high school.-=-

I understood, I thought, up to that point.

Were you planning to unschool until high school? Was Claire
unschooled too?

When spouses have different opinions, unschool's pretty likely to lose
out. That's why I like the analogy to owning a yacht. Some people
can even build a yacht, but in no case is a casual decision to have
one, nor can if be done by one spouse with the other.

Unschooling is such a big deal that it doesn't make sense to ask what
will happen if one wants to and the other doesn't. If I wrote "I
would like for our family to live in Japan, but Keith thinks we should
stay in our own house in the U.S."
What could the advice possibly be? I cannot have an unschooling
family if the father says not, or won't go with it.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

If I remember correctly, Pam and Sandra, her daugher Claire has been
in school because she was living for a time with her father. Now that
Claire lives with Beth and her new husband, they were thinking to
unschool. But there's been lots of pressure from Claire's biological
dad to school.

~Katherine




On 2/25/09, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I think the major attitude change is mostly due to him watching our
>
> oldest daughter, Claire (16), struggle with whether or not to finish
> high school. He seems to be suddenly worried about our 2 kids and
>
> high school.-=-
>
> I understood, I thought, up to that point.
>
> Were you planning to unschool until high school? Was Claire
> unschooled too?
>
> When spouses have different opinions, unschool's pretty likely to lose
> out. That's why I like the analogy to owning a yacht. Some people
> can even build a yacht, but in no case is a casual decision to have
> one, nor can if be done by one spouse with the other.
>
> Unschooling is such a big deal that it doesn't make sense to ask what
> will happen if one wants to and the other doesn't. If I wrote "I
> would like for our family to live in Japan, but Keith thinks we should
> stay in our own house in the U.S."
> What could the advice possibly be? I cannot have an unschooling
> family if the father says not, or won't go with it.
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-If I remember correctly, Pam and Sandra, her daugher Claire has been
in school because she was living for a time with her father. Now that
Claire lives with Beth and her new husband, they were thinking to
unschool. But there's been lots of pressure from Claire's biological
dad to school.=-

Okay. But because people join the list all the time, and because some
people don't even try to keep track of stories told months ago, it's
worth people clarifying. Someone joins every day, and everything
they see is new to them. If someone takes from that something about
unschoolers needing to worry about finishing high school, it's good to
have it clarified.

We've had 22 new members in 7 days.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- Also, he felt like successful unschoolers have many
different interests. He said we didn't strew enough to expose them
to different ideas and the kids didn't seem much interested in the
things we were showing them anyway.

-=-I don't know if this is a backward step or a permanent change. -=-

I went and read it again.

I think your husband is right. Successful unschoolers have many
different interests. If you haven't found ways to find interesting
things and present them in interesting ways, unschooling won't work yet.

By "enrolled" do you mean he bought school in a box? A curriculum?
Or signed them up with an online deal and paid for a year? What?

It might not be a backward step if it causes the two of you to see
that unschooling needs to be more than just being there.

Maybe show him these pages (and review them yourself) and then if the
homeschooling isn't going well he might be more confident that the two
of you can make unschooling really strong and vibrant.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/art
http://sandradodd.com/music
http://sandradodd.com/youngchildren


Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lyla Wolfenstein

Successful unschoolers have many
different interests. If you haven't found ways to find interesting
things and present them in interesting ways, unschooling won't work yet.
>>>

sandra, can you please talk about this some more? i imagine this must look very different depending on the kid...how does one "measure" "work" and "many different interests" and "successful"?

are you saying over the course of their unschooling experience, they have many different interests? some all at once, and some sequentially? because if so, that makes sense to me - and it seems to me that some kids spend oodles of time focusing in on one interest for months (or years) and then move on to the next one, while others are more generalists and dabblers....

i'd love to hear your thoughts on how you think this dad is right - and how you'd evaluate whether any given unschooler has a sufficient number of interests/whether it is "working."

i am really not trying to be antagonistic, so i hope this doens't come off that way - i just find myself vacillating between feeling confident that my son, in particular, has evolving interests and is thriving with unschooling, even if he looks moderately "inactive" from the outside, and worrying at moments that i am somehow not "finding ways to find interesting things and present them in interesting ways" even though for the most part i really think i am....so i'd love to hear more!

warmly, Lyla



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/25/2009 3:29 PM, k wrote:
> If I remember correctly, Pam and Sandra, her daugher Claire has been
> in school because she was living for a time with her father. Now that
> Claire lives with Beth and her new husband, they were thinking to
> unschool. But there's been lots of pressure from Claire's biological
> dad to school.
>
> ~Katherine
>

Right. Okay.I remember now.

So he really wants her to "finish" and she signed up for some
correspondence school and hates it.

I'm wondering what happened with the other ideas? GED? Wes Beach's high
school? Clonlara? Beth, did you and your daughter follow up on any of those?

Also, I've forgotten what state you are in - but there are specific
options in particular states that might be useful.

-pam

carnationsgalore

> His concern stems from watching her struggle with whether or not to
> finish high school? But, you were unschooling? So how does "finish
> high school" enter into that?
> -pam

Sorry, that did sound confusing. Claire is my oldest dd from my
previous marriage. She's been living with us for 2 years now. Her
dad and stepmom are both teachers and have taught her that formal
school is very important. She went to public high school the first 2
years she lived with us but chose to stay home this year, which would
be her junior year. She chose to enroll in a high school
correspondence program because her dad was already freaked out that
she was quitting high school. But she hasn't really been working on
the high school stuff. She hates it. My husband, her stepdad,
thinks she is so close to finishing her high school diploma that she
should just buckle down and do it. I posted about this whole dilemma
recently. She was just about to take a break from all thoughts of
school when she came down with Mono last week. So now she really
does have an excuse as to why she isn't even thinking about school
and her dad isn't bugging her about school.

Martin and I have homeschooled our 2 children, Jeffrey and Allison,
for 7 years now. We've used curriculum in the past but I always went
back to unschooling. Martin read the unschooling books with me and
still believes it's a great lifestyle. But he's gotten stuck in that
old belief that there are some things that need formal structure,
like mathematics. He's not 100% into the curriculum. I mean, he's
not wanting them to do every page. He is hoping some of the topics
will spark their interest in academic subjects. And he's thinking
that it would be good if they earned an accredited high school
diploma. That's why I think this was all brought on by Claire's high
school dilemma. I think he's had a sudden panic that the kids won't
really be prepared for life outside our home without formal
education.

Beth M.

carnationsgalore

> If I remember correctly, Pam and Sandra, her daugher Claire has been
> in school because she was living for a time with her father. Now
> that Claire lives with Beth and her new husband, they were thinking
> to unschool. But there's been lots of pressure from Claire's
> biological dad to school.
> ~Katherine

Exactly! When I posted, I didn't even think about providing that
background info about Claire because I had been talking about her
situation on this list recently. But of course this list has so many
people and so many discussions that it's difficult to remember everyone
and their situations. :)

Beth M.

carnationsgalore

> I think your husband is right. Successful unschoolers have many
> different interests. If you haven't found ways to find
> interesting things and present them in interesting ways,
> unschooling won't work yet.

Yes I do understand that. But the kids are 10 and 12 years old.
They both have things they love doing. I disagree with him that
their lack of formal mathematics or disinterest in reading diverse
books at this point in their lives is foreshadowing their futures as
young adults.

> By "enrolled" do you mean he bought school in a box? A
> curriculum?
> Or signed them up with an online deal and paid for a year? What?

It's an online school with textbooks. And yes, it's a one year
deal. He says he doesn't expect them to do everything the way it's
laid out because he doesn't like busy work. However, he does hope
this exposure to the core sujects will inspire them to want to
learn. I think he's putting too much emphasis on school subjects.
Jeffrey is very into video games and Allie is into music right now.
They like other things but those are the major interests in their
lives right now. Do they really need to have a dozen interests at
this age?

Thanks for the links Sandra.

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-he hasn't really been working on
the high school stuff. She hates it. My husband, her stepdad,
thinks she is so close to finishing her high school diploma that she
should just buckle down and do it. I posted about this whole dilemma
recently. She was just about to take a break from all thoughts of
school...-=-

I think if you look up Wes Beach and his school it might calm and
satisfy every single person in your very extended family. The stress
isn't doing anyone any good.

-=- We've used curriculum in the past but I always went
back to unschooling.-=-

"Always" sounds ominous. If it's happened more than once, I'm
guessing it hasn't really worked out at all yet.

-=- But he's gotten stuck in that
old belief that there are some things that need formal structure,
like mathematics.-=-

Has he read here:
http://sandradodd.com/math

Has he read on Joyce's page?
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

-=-He is hoping some of the topics
will spark their interest in academic subjects.-=-

That's not at all how unschooling works, though. FORGET academic
subjects. If you don't deschool (the kids AND the parents), how will
you move from schoolish expectations to unschooling?

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

http://sandradodd.com/doit

"Trying" unschooling and going back to a curriculum isn't
unschooling. It's not unschooling.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> I'm wondering what happened with the other ideas? GED? Wes Beach's
> high school? Clonlara? Beth, did you and your daughter follow up on
> any of those?
> -pam

Thanks Pam. Claire and I looked at the different options only
briefly. She was so stressed that she didn't want to read anything and
didn't want to make any decisions. I suggested she take a break from
school thoughts and sit down in a month with me to look at the options
again. She did like the look of Beach High School though. I have it
bookmarked so we can read about it when she's ready.

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-However, he does hope
this exposure to the core sujects will inspire them to want to
learn. I think he's putting too much emphasis on school subjects. -=-

"To want to learn"? To want to do more school work?

-=-Jeffrey is very into video games and Allie is into music right now.
-=-

You and your husband should be into video games and music then, too.
Be where they are. KNOW what they like and are learning, not by
asking them, but by reading about and listening to the music they
like. Buy or rent DVDs of the groups they like--concert videos or
documentaries. Go toward them, but not away from them.

-=-They like other things but those are the major interests in their
lives right now. Do they really need to have a dozen interests at
this age? -=-

HUNDREDS. They should be busy in dozens of directions, in little
ways, whether it's an inch or a moment, or a mile and a year. "Music"
is not monolithic. If someone is interested in music, that can be
broken down into a thousand elements. Is your son interested in one
single video game? If so, find out more about it. If not, don't
call it "video games" as though it were an element without lots of
depth and breadth, history and future.
http://sandradodd.com/checklist

LOOK AT THAT PAGE. Seriously.
Read it with music in mind.
Read it again with video games in mind.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Yes. We met at Ren's ARGH gathering a few months ago (actually I
think I may have met you at other things before as well). So I had a
face to put with that story, well 3 faces with you, your husband and
your youngest daughter. If I'm remembering the right people. I might
have you mixed up with someone else. :) I've done that before.

~Katherine



On 2/25/09, carnationsgalore <addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
> > If I remember correctly, Pam and Sandra, her daugher Claire has been
> > in school because she was living for a time with her father. Now
> > that Claire lives with Beth and her new husband, they were thinking
> > to unschool. But there's been lots of pressure from Claire's
> > biological dad to school.
> > ~Katherine
>
>
> Exactly! When I posted, I didn't even think about providing that
> background info about Claire because I had been talking about her
> situation on this list recently. But of course this list has so many
> people and so many discussions that it's difficult to remember everyone
> and their situations. :)
>
> Beth M.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

Sorry, I lost the original e-mail to this one. I'm answering on the site, but that doesn't
always work out so well for me.

I had written:
> Successful unschoolers have many
> different interests. If you haven't found ways to find interesting
> things and present them in interesting ways, unschooling won't work yet.


And was asked:
> sandra, can you please talk about this some more? i imagine this must look very
different depending on the kid...how does one "measure" "work" and "many different
interests" and "successful"?

The way I measure it is whether the mom has written something I put on this page
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
or whether she's asking the same questions again and again while ANY ideas like neglect
or curriculum or relatives are angry or husband is thinking of leaving or my kids just
aren't learning or any of those telltale phrases that show that unschooling hasn't yet taken
root so strongly that the family isn't living it.

There are ways to move more toward confidence and flow, but the moving doesn't happen
on this list. It happens in the home, and in the mind and heart of one of the parents who
can persuade the other, or whose children's joy and learning persuade everyone around
them.

The statement was about "successful unschoolers." I was saying yes, if her husband said
successful unschoolers have many different interests, that's true. What I didn't say
(because I keep thinking some of these things are understood or obvious, I guess) is that
the PARENTS need many different interests first. If the mom vacuums and cleans and the
dad watches tv and sleeps, they should put their kids in school. Not enough interests to
sustain unschooling.

-=-> i'd love to hear your thoughts on how you think this dad is right - and how you'd
evaluate whether any given unschooler has a sufficient number of interests/whether it is
"working." -=-

The mother has come and told us it isn't working.

Sandra

(I hope this isn't a garbledy mess, in the formatting)

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<he does hope
> this exposure to the core sujects will inspire them to want to
> learn.>>>

One of the tentpoles of unschooling is that normal humans do learn all the
time. It is an automatic and unstoppable process that happens from being
alive.

Perhaps it would help both of you to see the learning that IS happening if
you started actively looking for it - not necessarily in terms of school
subjects but more broadly. Every activity usually has so much learning in it
that it could be categorized into several or many subjects (as those people
unfortunate enough to live in a state with that kind of reporting find at
evaluation time when they have to brush the dust off their educationese).

What negative ideas are they likely to be learning from a parent dismissing
their interests as without oportunity for learning?

"Core subjects" are pointless outside of a context. The core of what? He is
thinking schooling, but what is the core of a full and happy life?

My focus with Jayn continues to be helping her DO what she wants to do.
Learning, basic (what schools call basic) skills and advanced skills too,
"core subjects" follow - really come after the action of DOING her stuff -
playing games, making things, drawing, researching on the internet, starting
a business, writing a book, planning a party, cooking for her friends. And
she spends a very large portion of every day playing computer games and the
Wii, both by herself and with me.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/25/2009 7:05 PM, carnationsgalore wrote:
> He says he doesn't expect them to do everything the way it's
> laid out because he doesn't like busy work. However, he does hope
> this exposure to the core sujects will inspire them to want to
> learn.

So - he bought this curriculum without your agreement?

Can you afford to just drop that one and do something different that
would be less schoolish, more gentle, but still satisfy him?

I think you two should agree on something - if he's not going to be
convinced about unschooling, then you'll have to choose some sort of
gentle program. They're out there. Maybe you could get the "What Your
X-Grader Needs to Know" and read a little of that together each day, for
example. That's pretty painless. Or have a look at Oak Meadow materials.
I mean, this isn't the list for recommending curriculum materials, but
it is better to compromise and find something you can be okay with,
maybe even enjoy a bit, rather than having such conflict with your own
husband.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/25/2009 6:33 PM, carnationsgalore wrote:
> But he's gotten stuck in that
> old belief that there are some things that need formal structure,
> like mathematics. He's not 100% into the curriculum.

I'm going to say something that has comforted many dads. Don't let it
scare you <G>.

Kids will pick up arithmetic as they go about living their lives
(arithmetic is everywhere) - they might have a few gaps, they might not
learn formal notation, but what they don't learn naturally is very easy
to "fill in" if they have a need.


However, people do not pick up higher math (algebra and above) that
way. Let's be honest about that, because if we're not, our credibility
is shot.

There are several points that need to be made about higher math, though:

First, not everybody needs to know very much about algebra,
trigonometry, or calculus or even formal geometry. And certainly kids
don't need to know it just for the sake of knowing it. The rationales
offered for making everyone take algebra are that it is the "language of
science" and that it develops thinking skills. Both are bogus reasons.
Yes, algebra is used BY many scientists, but it isn't the language that
is used to explain that science to the rest of us. If they decide to go
into science, they'll need some algebra. There is

However, algebra is currently a "gateway" course - the filter that keeps
some people from getting into or through college and makes college
degrees more scarce and therefore more valuable. So, if college ends up
being on the path a person wants to follow, formal algebra is probably
going to be required (not absolutely always, but usually).

If and when that time for algebra arrives, it is very possible for a
person to go over all the arithmetic needed and fill in the gaps and
learn the notation. There are lots of ways to do that - anything from
using a textbook, an online program, a tutor, a video course, a tutor, a
classroom course, and more. It could take a few weeks or a few months or
even a year, depending on how much time the person puts into it. And,
then, they can learn algebra in any of the same ways.

My three daughters did no formal math at all until they were in college.
They started at community college, which has no entrance requirements.
They had options - they could take a placement test and start the math
sequence where the test placed them or they could start the math
sequence at the beginning. I recommended they do a little studying on
their own and take the placement test so that they could skip some of
the courses, but they each opted to start the sequence at the beginning,
because they felt uncomfortable about all the formal notation. The
oldest finished the sequence with Algebra 2 and then probability and
statistics. She went on to get a bachelors degree and took a couple more
statistics/research methods courses including being invited to take a
graduate-level course when she was still a college senior. She got A's
in all math courses, by the way. My second daughter followed the same
route and finished algebra 2 and is now taking statistics. Daughter
number 3 is in the course right before algebra, right now.

The people in these math classes with my daughters have almost all gone
to school and taken (suffered through) years and years of math
instruction. My kids never suffered through one minute of it and there
they are in the same classes getting among the highest grades in the
course, no less.

-pam

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 25, 2009, at 9:33 PM, carnationsgalore wrote:

> But he's gotten stuck in that
> old belief that there are some things that need formal structure,
> like mathematics.

I have several pages on math that might help him.:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/math/senselessschoolmath.html
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/math/speakingmath.html
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/math/unschoolingmath.html
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/math/math.html
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/math/mathprograms.html

I loved math in school but now that I'm far away from it I see how
really bogus it was in terms of actually understanding mathematical
concepts. (I still like the solving puzzles aspect of it. But I
didn't develop an understanding of math from doing that.)

Learning math by using it is amazingly easy. Learning it from
abstract symbols divorced from what it's describing is very very hard
and why it takes so many years and why so many fail at it. It
unnatural and ineffective.

Claire was *in* school for most of her life and is struggling? So all
those years didn't help. 2 years of unschooling won't undo that
damage. It took me several years to get past the damage of school
history. Even though I knew I loved learning about the past from
movies and historical novels, it took ages for that dull feeling of
memorizing politicians and policies and dates to really leave my
system. It's not reasonable to expect 2 years of unschooling to undo
the damage done to interests she may not even be passionate about.

Kat spent 2 months in second grade, had a few other minutes of
curriculum, did a computer math program for fun with her dad. That
was it for what would resemble school math. At 14 she took his
college statistics class. She was always at the top of the class in
homework (which she could ask for his help on) and tests (where she
couldn't). (He also said she showed no signs of having done the math
program. It didn't translate beyond the questions of the program.)
Performing well with schooled kids in a math class is not typical of
all unschooled kids, but I'd say it's perfectly typical of kids who
are doing what they enjoy and enjoying what they're doing. (She finds
math interesting, but her passion is art and writing, so she didn't
do well because she's a "math head".)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- but
it is better to compromise and find something you can be okay with,
maybe even enjoy a bit, rather than having such conflict with your own
husband.-=-

I think it's better to even send kids to school rather than having
such conflict with your husband. School wouldn't last long, with such
homeschooling desires, but it would be a way to regroup and clarify,
maybe, in some cases. Not necessarily this case, but in general.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-However, algebra is currently a "gateway" course - the filter
that ...-=-

Halt right there a second, please.

So algebra classes and tests exist, in part, to create failures? To
separate the college wheat from the chaff and riff raff?

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> I think you two should agree on something - if he's not going to be
> convinced about unschooling, then you'll have to choose some sort
of
> gentle program.

Compromise. Yes, that's what I'm trying for. I saw unschooling
working in our family. It fit the natural rhythms of our lifestyle.
I've totally let go of the traditional educational path and don't see
schoolish things as relevant in my children's lives. I haven't used
curriculum with them in a year. It is true that I had doubts before
that which had me yo-yo'ing between curriculum and unschooling but I
finally got past it. I thought my husband was with with me in
understanding but apparently not. He decided he didn't see
unschooling working because he's still viewing their learning through
schoolish glasses.

I'm having a difficult time working with the curriculum. It is so
stupid! He and I will be reading through the links Sandra gave to us
later today when he's off work. If he can read through them and
still feel like the curriculum is a good idea then I'll find a
compromise somehow. I know we can't be radical unschoolers if both
parents aren't on board but I can't agree to a fully traditional path
because I believe it's harmful.

Beth M.

Lyla Wolfenstein

She was always at the top of the class in
homework (which she could ask for his help on) and tests (where she
couldn't). (He also said she showed no signs of having done the math
program. >>>>

i have to second this based on a recent experience. my daughter always struggled in math, until she "home schooled" for 4 months in 6th grade and then went to a private school, where she took algebra. she ended up getting the highest score in her algebra class, much to her amazement...BUT - she is unschooling now and desires to take some college classes: i took her to do the placement tests there, and she placed into basic calculations. part of it is because the test is dynamic so she never *got* to the algebra part because she got stuck on something we probably never covered in her 4 months of "school at home" - inverse exponents. but, from the little prep she wanted to do for the test, it didn't really seem like she remembered much algebra either - even though that highest score in the class was just last year!!

lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- know we can't be radical unschoolers if both
parents aren't on board but I can't agree to a fully traditional path
because I believe it's harmful.=-

A traditional path isn't as harmful as divorce.
There are antidotes to "fully traditional" paths.

http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice

(Don't show him that one too early in the negotiations.)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 4:15 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> -=-However, algebra is currently a "gateway" course - the filter
> that ...-=-
>
> Halt right there a second, please.
>
> So algebra classes and tests exist, in part, to create failures? To
> separate the college wheat from the chaff and riff raff?
>
>
>

...and to sell those remedial courses ;)

~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>>>> She finds math interesting, but her passion is art and writing, so she didn't
do well because she's a "math head". <<<<

I did very well in stats & prob in my last year (at age 43) and got
top grades. I thought it was very interesting. I am most definitely
don't by *any* stretch of the imagination have a "math head."

I avoided any math for years (I was in college off and on for 15
years) because I had such phobias about it from public school math...
all the drilling and massive amounts of homework--ugh only to fail
some of the tests or barely squeak through with Cs and Ds.

It really does take a long time to rid oneself of math angst and phobias.

One of the biggest realizations for me, by the time I was 30 something
is that my mind was working differently and more easily in areas I
wouldn't have had the foggiest notion about in high school or even in
my 20s.

I don't know if that is a super long or extreme time line but I'm sure
I'm not the only one.

~Katherine

k

>>>> One of the biggest realizations for me, by the time I was 30 something
is that my mind was working differently and more easily in areas I
wouldn't have had the foggiest notion about in high school or even in
my 20s. <<<<

Just wanted to mention that it wasn't just math. It was any kind of
analysis. Literature was easy for me by the time I went to college. I
started college at 27.

Before that I had gotten an associate degree in something I barely had
any interest in and also found out when I had graduated and had worked
in the field for some time it had no way for me to advance. Which is
the reason I thought I should just go back to college and do what I
really love-- art. Now I don't think I should have gone to college
for art (though I enjoyed it immensely) because I could have simply
made art and started showing it. All I really needed (had I only
known) is a mentor... being around other artists.

~Katherine

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/25/2009 10:32 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
> If they decide to go
> into science, they'll need some algebra. There is
>


Sorry - sentence got cut off.

Should have said, ."... There is no reason for everyone to be forced to
sit through it, though."

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/26/2009 4:15 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-However, algebra is currently a "gateway" course - the filter
> that ...-=-
>
> Halt right there a second, please.
>
> So algebra classes and tests exist, in part, to create failures? To
> separate the college wheat from the chaff and riff raff?
>
>

Absolutely.

-pam