New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
leana
I found this group the other night while browsing the web and this
seemed like the kind of group I have been looking for. Here is a
little bit about my homeschooling/wanting to unschool family..
I come from a very strict public school bloodline as does my husband.
We both went to public schools and we both were not satisfied with it.
We both made excellent grades in school but did not like the way the
schooling system was (or still is for that matter.) We both dropped
out of the public school system and I went on to get my diploma at
home.In a nutshell, I homeschooled myself so that I could graduate.
We have 3 children ages (9,4, and 3). Our oldest went to a public
school until about a year and a half ago. Before he attended school, I
taught him things at home. When we sent him to public school he was
very bored with class so he talked a lot and because of his size (he
is little for his age) he would get bullied.I had the bully removed
from his class of course but there was still that talking he was doing
in school. He was also getting to where he was "getting sick" every
morning so he wouldn't have to go. Well to make a long story short, I
got pulled into class for a parent teacher conference. They asked me
if I taught my son at home along with what he was learning at school
and of course I said yes. They said "Please stop". I just had to
laugh, when I asked why they said "He learns enough from school
already and because you teach him at home too, he is bored in
class.Which explains the talking. Every thing we hand out he knows
already, so he is bored." That was the last straw and he was pulled
out of school that day. I did not feel that my teaching at home was
hindering him at school because I did not really "teach". I just spent
time with him, reading, coloring, and such. I did not really look at
it like teaching because I was doing things with him that I didn't
remember doing in school.
With that being said, I have been homeschooling my child for a little
while now and I do not feel the traditional homeschooling is working
for him. I am afraid that I am not sure what to do anymore.What I mean
is this, because I was raised a certain way and so was my husband I
feel like I am not doing my part by forcing paper work on him or
making him do tests and such. I am having a hard time getting this
structured way of schooling (that I did not like myself growing up)
out of my system. I feel that if I do not have paper work for him to
do, tests for him to take, or a ton of reading to do, that I am not
doing a good job and therefore he will not learn.
I already know that all this stuff is not working for him.There are
endless tears, frustration and anger on both our parts and I do not
want this.Also I have family breathing down my neck because they feel
that since I am not a teacher I am not qualified and that he will be
behind on things that they would be teaching him in a public school.
I pulled him out of public school because of all this frustration he
was getting. and now I am being the one doing it to him.
A couple months back I came across the idea of unschooling. I have
been studying on it A BUNCH and really feel this will work for him. I
already try to incorporate some into what we do and let him choose a
lot of what he wants to learn but then I start to feel that ugly
public school structure poking its head out at me again.I live in a
pretty laid back state (Georgia). My only fear is that I am not doing
enough.
There are days when all my son wants to do is watch TV or play video
games.I guess I shouldn't complain to much cause he likes to watch
Animal Planet, Food Network or the History Channel a lot. But again, I
was raised to think that too much tv can cause a child to fail and is
not good, and I feel terrible for letting him sometimes.I feel as if I
should restrict him some.
Also I have a 4 year old. She LOVES books but does not now how to
read. She can recognize some letters but can not seem to connect
letters with sounds. Anyway, I was in this other homeschooling group
and I felt really terrible that my daughter can not read yet. This
group was bragging on how their 4 year old can read and mine is still
learning letter. I keep tons of reading material around the house and
she will pick up a book and make her own stories up but I was
wondering if I should try to help her into reading or how do I go
about letting her do it naturally.
Ugh, I know I am rambling but I really love the concept of unschooling
and feel that, with a little work, it will prove to be the best thing
for our family. Only thing is, I think I am the one who needs the
work. Can you all please help me. I need some guidance. I need help
and understanding on unschooling. I have read websites and some of
your posts on here and I get some of the concepts of it but have that
feeling that without a ton of paperwork they will never learn. Sorry
if this does not make sense. I know what I want to say but am having
trouble getting it out on here.
Help in Georgia,
LeAna
seemed like the kind of group I have been looking for. Here is a
little bit about my homeschooling/wanting to unschool family..
I come from a very strict public school bloodline as does my husband.
We both went to public schools and we both were not satisfied with it.
We both made excellent grades in school but did not like the way the
schooling system was (or still is for that matter.) We both dropped
out of the public school system and I went on to get my diploma at
home.In a nutshell, I homeschooled myself so that I could graduate.
We have 3 children ages (9,4, and 3). Our oldest went to a public
school until about a year and a half ago. Before he attended school, I
taught him things at home. When we sent him to public school he was
very bored with class so he talked a lot and because of his size (he
is little for his age) he would get bullied.I had the bully removed
from his class of course but there was still that talking he was doing
in school. He was also getting to where he was "getting sick" every
morning so he wouldn't have to go. Well to make a long story short, I
got pulled into class for a parent teacher conference. They asked me
if I taught my son at home along with what he was learning at school
and of course I said yes. They said "Please stop". I just had to
laugh, when I asked why they said "He learns enough from school
already and because you teach him at home too, he is bored in
class.Which explains the talking. Every thing we hand out he knows
already, so he is bored." That was the last straw and he was pulled
out of school that day. I did not feel that my teaching at home was
hindering him at school because I did not really "teach". I just spent
time with him, reading, coloring, and such. I did not really look at
it like teaching because I was doing things with him that I didn't
remember doing in school.
With that being said, I have been homeschooling my child for a little
while now and I do not feel the traditional homeschooling is working
for him. I am afraid that I am not sure what to do anymore.What I mean
is this, because I was raised a certain way and so was my husband I
feel like I am not doing my part by forcing paper work on him or
making him do tests and such. I am having a hard time getting this
structured way of schooling (that I did not like myself growing up)
out of my system. I feel that if I do not have paper work for him to
do, tests for him to take, or a ton of reading to do, that I am not
doing a good job and therefore he will not learn.
I already know that all this stuff is not working for him.There are
endless tears, frustration and anger on both our parts and I do not
want this.Also I have family breathing down my neck because they feel
that since I am not a teacher I am not qualified and that he will be
behind on things that they would be teaching him in a public school.
I pulled him out of public school because of all this frustration he
was getting. and now I am being the one doing it to him.
A couple months back I came across the idea of unschooling. I have
been studying on it A BUNCH and really feel this will work for him. I
already try to incorporate some into what we do and let him choose a
lot of what he wants to learn but then I start to feel that ugly
public school structure poking its head out at me again.I live in a
pretty laid back state (Georgia). My only fear is that I am not doing
enough.
There are days when all my son wants to do is watch TV or play video
games.I guess I shouldn't complain to much cause he likes to watch
Animal Planet, Food Network or the History Channel a lot. But again, I
was raised to think that too much tv can cause a child to fail and is
not good, and I feel terrible for letting him sometimes.I feel as if I
should restrict him some.
Also I have a 4 year old. She LOVES books but does not now how to
read. She can recognize some letters but can not seem to connect
letters with sounds. Anyway, I was in this other homeschooling group
and I felt really terrible that my daughter can not read yet. This
group was bragging on how their 4 year old can read and mine is still
learning letter. I keep tons of reading material around the house and
she will pick up a book and make her own stories up but I was
wondering if I should try to help her into reading or how do I go
about letting her do it naturally.
Ugh, I know I am rambling but I really love the concept of unschooling
and feel that, with a little work, it will prove to be the best thing
for our family. Only thing is, I think I am the one who needs the
work. Can you all please help me. I need some guidance. I need help
and understanding on unschooling. I have read websites and some of
your posts on here and I get some of the concepts of it but have that
feeling that without a ton of paperwork they will never learn. Sorry
if this does not make sense. I know what I want to say but am having
trouble getting it out on here.
Help in Georgia,
LeAna
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "leana" <leanarandolph@...> wrote:
idiots either.
Also I have family breathing down my neck because they feel
home with me through the past six years learning immersively at the
speed of thought as I call it, tells me that public schools have
*fallen behind* how people acquire information and knowledge - how
they learn - in the world at large.
In other words, I wouldn't hold up public schooling as any kind of
yardstick against which to measure the quality of a child's education.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that, if you want your
child to get a good education now and in the future, sending him or
her to a public school is probably the worst available option.
And, as for qualified teachers, in the event that you don't know how
to Google or click the play button on YouTube and so on, it seems to
me that all the good teachers will be freelance online tutors before
too long because that's where the money will be. There are private
education providers recruiting teachers as online tutors already -
I've seen two this past week.
Bob
>Good for you. I wouldn't want a child of mine hanging around with
>
> got pulled into class for a parent teacher conference. They asked me
> if I taught my son at home along with what he was learning at school
> and of course I said yes. They said "Please stop". I just had to
> laugh, when I asked why they said "He learns enough from school
> already and because you teach him at home too, he is bored in
> class.Which explains the talking. Every thing we hand out he knows
> already, so he is bored." That was the last straw and he was pulled
> out of school that day.
idiots either.
Also I have family breathing down my neck because they feel
> that since I am not a teacher I am not qualified and that he will beMy experience of the "Digital Revolution", and of having my son at
> behind on things that they would be teaching him in a public school.
>
home with me through the past six years learning immersively at the
speed of thought as I call it, tells me that public schools have
*fallen behind* how people acquire information and knowledge - how
they learn - in the world at large.
In other words, I wouldn't hold up public schooling as any kind of
yardstick against which to measure the quality of a child's education.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that, if you want your
child to get a good education now and in the future, sending him or
her to a public school is probably the worst available option.
And, as for qualified teachers, in the event that you don't know how
to Google or click the play button on YouTube and so on, it seems to
me that all the good teachers will be freelance online tutors before
too long because that's where the money will be. There are private
education providers recruiting teachers as online tutors already -
I've seen two this past week.
Bob
raisingexplorers
> They asked meThis is actually not too uncommon. When I was younger, my mom spent a
> if I taught my son at home along with what he was learning at school
> and of course I said yes. They said "Please stop".
lot of time with me and I learned to read, write and do math (even
simple algebra) before I attended Kindergarten. It was too late for
them to tell her to stop teaching me, but they recommended to her that
she should not teach my little brother. So, she didn't help him learn
to write his name, she didn't even say the ABCs with him.. and
surprise.. they complained about that, too. So, you can't really
please the public school system.. they will always find something to
complain about.. even their own advice. But, the fact that I was
raised to question the status quo and find answers for myself, rather
than rely on some person that may or may not be telling me the entire
truth did conflict horribly with public school and ended up with me
dropping out in High School. Which renders me, to my family and
apparently my neighbors, completely unsatisfactory for the
responsibility of teaching my own child.
> With that being said, I have been homeschooling my child for a littleI would say, to spend some time 'deschooling.' It really helps to just
> while now and I do not feel the traditional homeschooling is working
> for him. I am afraid that I am not sure what to do anymore.
take 'time off' from the schoolish way of doing things. I pulled my
son out of school at the beginning of this school year. My head was
swirling at the amount of useless crap he was supposed to have
memorized by the end of first grade. We began by doing nothing and I
watched as his interests unfolded. When we started 'doing nothing,' I
simply kept a notebook that I would write a list of things we did
everyday. So, I would have a record to present and to help me write
Georgia's required yearly progress report. Keeping the list of things
we did helped me realize that learning is everywhere. Just live life
for a while, and over time, you will recognize that he can learn just
by being alive. If I write, "We made cookies." I can easily break that
down into: We did math, we did reading, we did home ec. All of those
worksheets are just busywork and prep for standardized testing, which
we don't do. There's a big difference between learning things and
memorizing things so you can get the busy work out of the way faster.
A good example is math. My son's school-going friends are stuck in
class memorizing addition and subtraction facts this year and watching
flash cards so they can easily determine how many objects are
presented to them in less than 3 seconds. My son, on the other hand,
isn't interested in memorizing addition and subtraction. Instead he
skipped the memorization and decided to explore multiplication. I've
never asked him to write any of it down.. he does it in his head. If I
gave him worksheets to encourage memorization over actually grasping
the concept, I think it would be a disservice.
My family is also concerned. They expect my son to be reading any
grade-level appropriate book they pick up and tell him to read. But,
it doesn't work that way. My son is too focused on the fruits of his
labor. If there are no fruits to be had, he's not interested. Reading
a book because someone else thinks he should do it, has no value to
him. But, reading the recipes in a cookbook while we cook has a solid,
tangible result that he's excited about. Of course, no one thinks
about grabbing the cookbook and asking him to share some of his
favorite recipes. Why not? It's not grade-level appropriate? They
don't expect him to be able to do this.
A book that's not exactly about unschool, but that did help me is the
Successful Homeschool Family Handbook. It has a lot of information and
advice, ideas, etc. It did help me not to worry so much about my son
'falling behind,' or 'not being on grade level,' etc.
I'm in GA. Where are you located in GA? I'm in West Metro Atlanta.
Sandra Dodd
--I would say, to spend some time 'deschooling.' It really helps to just
take 'time off' from the schoolish way of doing things. I pulled my
son out of school at the beginning of this school year.-=-
Good suggestion, and here are lots of deschooling pep talks and ideas:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
take 'time off' from the schoolish way of doing things. I pulled my
son out of school at the beginning of this school year.-=-
Good suggestion, and here are lots of deschooling pep talks and ideas:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leana randolph
Thank you so very much. I think where my challenges come in is the fact that I can not get my son to want to do anything besides play video games or watch tv. Even getting him to go outside is a challenge. I guess I am afraid he will turn into one of those people whose whole life is games and tv. I have two nephews who are this way (they are both 8 and 9-they are public school children though,not that it makes a difference).They sit in their rooms and play games for hours and hours and they have been this way for months. I guess I do not want my child to be like that. Should I just leave my son alone and let him play video games and watch tv all the time? How can I get him to want to do something else? He is only 9 and I am not sure if it is healthy for him to zone out infront of a TV and video games all day. I know this may not seem like a big thing to the long time unschooling parents and probably sounds pretty silly, but I am still new and not sure
if this is even natural. Confused!!
LeAna
________________________________
From: Bob Collier <bobcollier@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 7:45:06 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
if this is even natural. Confused!!
LeAna
________________________________
From: Bob Collier <bobcollier@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 7:45:06 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
--- In AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com, "leana" <leanarandolph@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> got pulled into class for a parent teacher conference. They asked me
> if I taught my son at home along with what he was learning at school
> and of course I said yes. They said "Please stop". I just had to
> laugh, when I asked why they said "He learns enough from school
> already and because you teach him at home too, he is bored in
> class.Which explains the talking. Every thing we hand out he knows
> already, so he is bored." That was the last straw and he was pulled
> out of school that day.
Good for you. I wouldn't want a child of mine hanging around with
idiots either.
Also I have family breathing down my neck because they feel
> that since I am not a teacher I am not qualified and that he will be
> behind on things that they would be teaching him in a public school.
>
My experience of the "Digital Revolution", and of having my son at
home with me through the past six years learning immersively at the
speed of thought as I call it, tells me that public schools have
*fallen behind* how people acquire information and knowledge - how
they learn - in the world at large.
In other words, I wouldn't hold up public schooling as any kind of
yardstick against which to measure the quality of a child's education.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that, if you want your
child to get a good education now and in the future, sending him or
her to a public school is probably the worst available option.
And, as for qualified teachers, in the event that you don't know how
to Google or click the play button on YouTube and so on, it seems to
me that all the good teachers will be freelance online tutors before
too long because that's where the money will be. There are private
education providers recruiting teachers as online tutors already -
I've seen two this past week.
Bob
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leana randolph
Thanks. I guess I never really gave my son enough time to deschool.In fact I am not sure I ever gave him any time to deschool. I think that might of contributed to my feeling of loss. Also the fact that all he wants is video games and tv too which I am hoping will change soon. I think the way I was raised and taught has a lot to do with my frustrations. I am almost wondering if I need some deschooling time for myself too. :) And I know all to well about being looked at as less than worthy because of dropping out, my husband and I both do. Even though I finished at home and have my diploma to prove it, the simple fact that I didn't finish in a public school setting I guess is what makes me look bad. I don't know but it makes me laugh though HAHA! Oh by the way I live in RockyFace, GA!
LeAna
________________________________
From: raisingexplorers <raisingexplorers@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 8:35:39 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
lot of time with me and I learned to read, write and do math (even
simple algebra) before I attended Kindergarten. It was too late for
them to tell her to stop teaching me, but they recommended to her that
she should not teach my little brother. So, she didn't help him learn
to write his name, she didn't even say the ABCs with him.. and
surprise.. they complained about that, too. So, you can't really
please the public school system.. they will always find something to
complain about.. even their own advice. But, the fact that I was
raised to question the status quo and find answers for myself, rather
than rely on some person that may or may not be telling me the entire
truth did conflict horribly with public school and ended up with me
dropping out in High School. Which renders me, to my family and
apparently my neighbors, completely unsatisfactory for the
responsibility of teaching my own child.
take 'time off' from the schoolish way of doing things. I pulled my
son out of school at the beginning of this school year. My head was
swirling at the amount of useless crap he was supposed to have
memorized by the end of first grade. We began by doing nothing and I
watched as his interests unfolded. When we started 'doing nothing,' I
simply kept a notebook that I would write a list of things we did
everyday. So, I would have a record to present and to help me write
Georgia's required yearly progress report. Keeping the list of things
we did helped me realize that learning is everywhere. Just live life
for a while, and over time, you will recognize that he can learn just
by being alive. If I write, "We made cookies." I can easily break that
down into: We did math, we did reading, we did home ec. All of those
worksheets are just busywork and prep for standardized testing, which
we don't do. There's a big difference between learning things and
memorizing things so you can get the busy work out of the way faster.
A good example is math. My son's school-going friends are stuck in
class memorizing addition and subtraction facts this year and watching
flash cards so they can easily determine how many objects are
presented to them in less than 3 seconds. My son, on the other hand,
isn't interested in memorizing addition and subtraction. Instead he
skipped the memorization and decided to explore multiplication. I've
never asked him to write any of it down.. he does it in his head. If I
gave him worksheets to encourage memorization over actually grasping
the concept, I think it would be a disservice.
My family is also concerned. They expect my son to be reading any
grade-level appropriate book they pick up and tell him to read. But,
it doesn't work that way. My son is too focused on the fruits of his
labor. If there are no fruits to be had, he's not interested. Reading
a book because someone else thinks he should do it, has no value to
him. But, reading the recipes in a cookbook while we cook has a solid,
tangible result that he's excited about. Of course, no one thinks
about grabbing the cookbook and asking him to share some of his
favorite recipes. Why not? It's not grade-level appropriate? They
don't expect him to be able to do this.
A book that's not exactly about unschool, but that did help me is the
Successful Homeschool Family Handbook. It has a lot of information and
advice, ideas, etc. It did help me not to worry so much about my son
'falling behind,' or 'not being on grade level,' etc.
I'm in GA. Where are you located in GA? I'm in West Metro Atlanta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LeAna
________________________________
From: raisingexplorers <raisingexplorers@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 8:35:39 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
> They asked meThis is actually not too uncommon. When I was younger, my mom spent a
> if I taught my son at home along with what he was learning at school
> and of course I said yes. They said "Please stop".
lot of time with me and I learned to read, write and do math (even
simple algebra) before I attended Kindergarten. It was too late for
them to tell her to stop teaching me, but they recommended to her that
she should not teach my little brother. So, she didn't help him learn
to write his name, she didn't even say the ABCs with him.. and
surprise.. they complained about that, too. So, you can't really
please the public school system.. they will always find something to
complain about.. even their own advice. But, the fact that I was
raised to question the status quo and find answers for myself, rather
than rely on some person that may or may not be telling me the entire
truth did conflict horribly with public school and ended up with me
dropping out in High School. Which renders me, to my family and
apparently my neighbors, completely unsatisfactory for the
responsibility of teaching my own child.
> With that being said, I have been homeschooling my child for a littleI would say, to spend some time 'deschooling. ' It really helps to just
> while now and I do not feel the traditional homeschooling is working
> for him. I am afraid that I am not sure what to do anymore.
take 'time off' from the schoolish way of doing things. I pulled my
son out of school at the beginning of this school year. My head was
swirling at the amount of useless crap he was supposed to have
memorized by the end of first grade. We began by doing nothing and I
watched as his interests unfolded. When we started 'doing nothing,' I
simply kept a notebook that I would write a list of things we did
everyday. So, I would have a record to present and to help me write
Georgia's required yearly progress report. Keeping the list of things
we did helped me realize that learning is everywhere. Just live life
for a while, and over time, you will recognize that he can learn just
by being alive. If I write, "We made cookies." I can easily break that
down into: We did math, we did reading, we did home ec. All of those
worksheets are just busywork and prep for standardized testing, which
we don't do. There's a big difference between learning things and
memorizing things so you can get the busy work out of the way faster.
A good example is math. My son's school-going friends are stuck in
class memorizing addition and subtraction facts this year and watching
flash cards so they can easily determine how many objects are
presented to them in less than 3 seconds. My son, on the other hand,
isn't interested in memorizing addition and subtraction. Instead he
skipped the memorization and decided to explore multiplication. I've
never asked him to write any of it down.. he does it in his head. If I
gave him worksheets to encourage memorization over actually grasping
the concept, I think it would be a disservice.
My family is also concerned. They expect my son to be reading any
grade-level appropriate book they pick up and tell him to read. But,
it doesn't work that way. My son is too focused on the fruits of his
labor. If there are no fruits to be had, he's not interested. Reading
a book because someone else thinks he should do it, has no value to
him. But, reading the recipes in a cookbook while we cook has a solid,
tangible result that he's excited about. Of course, no one thinks
about grabbing the cookbook and asking him to share some of his
favorite recipes. Why not? It's not grade-level appropriate? They
don't expect him to be able to do this.
A book that's not exactly about unschool, but that did help me is the
Successful Homeschool Family Handbook. It has a lot of information and
advice, ideas, etc. It did help me not to worry so much about my son
'falling behind,' or 'not being on grade level,' etc.
I'm in GA. Where are you located in GA? I'm in West Metro Atlanta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Thanks. I guess I never really gave my son enough time to
deschool.In fact I am not sure I ever gave him any time to deschool.
I think that might of contributed to my feeling of loss.-=-
It's not too late.
In fact, unschooling isn't going to work for you unless and until
you've gone through a deschooling time.
-=-Also the fact that all he wants is video games and tv too which I
am hoping will change soon. -=
You need to stop hoping it will change before it can change. This
whole unschooling thing is tricky. If he's reacting to what you
want, he won't be making his own real choices. If you're living by
his actions and choices, you won't be making interesting choices
yourself.
The general recommendation (which has stood since before I was
unschooling) is deschooling takes a month for every month the person
was in school. All school counts. School at home counts. So don't
expect recovery before one month per year.
-=-I am almost wondering if I need some deschooling time for myself
too. :) -=-
No wondering, no smiley, you do!!
You went to school ten years or twelve maybe, I'm guessing. So your
own feelings about school will need ten months OFF. Not ten months
of changing your mind every few weeks. Ten solid months of
consciously trying to live like it's summer vacation or a great
Saturday (from when you were in school). Only then will you start to
get the clearheadedness to see learning.
When you work out in the sun and go into a dark room, you can't see
anything. When people have been blinded by school and they turn
toward natural learning, they can't see anything at first. They only
see the "not schoolness" and it seems like all kinds of dark, bad
things.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Read all of it, all the links, maybe twice, and let your son play all
the games he wants. Leave him alone for hours. Find some things
you've wished you had done--projects around the house, hobbies,
movies you haven't seen for a long time or ever. Start your own
recovery and relax into the possibility that learning is everywhere
and peace can be at your house bigtime.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deschool.In fact I am not sure I ever gave him any time to deschool.
I think that might of contributed to my feeling of loss.-=-
It's not too late.
In fact, unschooling isn't going to work for you unless and until
you've gone through a deschooling time.
-=-Also the fact that all he wants is video games and tv too which I
am hoping will change soon. -=
You need to stop hoping it will change before it can change. This
whole unschooling thing is tricky. If he's reacting to what you
want, he won't be making his own real choices. If you're living by
his actions and choices, you won't be making interesting choices
yourself.
The general recommendation (which has stood since before I was
unschooling) is deschooling takes a month for every month the person
was in school. All school counts. School at home counts. So don't
expect recovery before one month per year.
-=-I am almost wondering if I need some deschooling time for myself
too. :) -=-
No wondering, no smiley, you do!!
You went to school ten years or twelve maybe, I'm guessing. So your
own feelings about school will need ten months OFF. Not ten months
of changing your mind every few weeks. Ten solid months of
consciously trying to live like it's summer vacation or a great
Saturday (from when you were in school). Only then will you start to
get the clearheadedness to see learning.
When you work out in the sun and go into a dark room, you can't see
anything. When people have been blinded by school and they turn
toward natural learning, they can't see anything at first. They only
see the "not schoolness" and it seems like all kinds of dark, bad
things.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Read all of it, all the links, maybe twice, and let your son play all
the games he wants. Leave him alone for hours. Find some things
you've wished you had done--projects around the house, hobbies,
movies you haven't seen for a long time or ever. Start your own
recovery and relax into the possibility that learning is everywhere
and peace can be at your house bigtime.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 2, 2008, at 9:52 AM, leana randolph wrote:
<<Even getting him to go outside is a challenge.>>
He loves what he is doing and you're trying to make him do something
he doesn't enjoy as much. "Go outside" doesn't sound like much fun to
me, either. Go swimming might sound fun. Go to the park with friends
might sound fun. Build a fort might sound fun. Draw with sidewalk
chalk might sound fun (especially if we had one of those sprayers made
for chalk). Taking karate or scuba diving or skiing lessons might be
fun. My point is that your job as an unschooling parent is to offer
enticing and interesting and fun experiences, not to try to make him
"go outside."
<I guess I am afraid he will turn into one of those people whose whole
life is games and tv.>>
My youngest daughter (17) is thinking about a career in television.
She LOVES television shows - loves watching them over and over and
loves reading about them and analyzing and talking about them. She
works (teaches karate) and spends a lot of her earnings buying tv
shows on dvd. Loving television as much as she does, plus playing a
lot of video games and role playing games like D&D, hasn't kept her
from also doing lots of other things - she dances and plays soccer.
She just had 6 soccer games in 3 days. She's got lots of friends -
spent yesterday at Disneyland with a group of them. She reads a lot,
too, and listens to a lot of music.
Don't look at the tv/gaming as a 'problem' that you have to pull him
away from. It may seem paradoxical, but if you focus on supporting his
tv and gaming interests and expanding on them and also offering lots
of other options that you think he might enjoy, he will be more likely
to take advantage of all those cool options you're offering. If, on
the other hand, you're focusing on pulling him away from what he loves
(games and tv), you will create resistance and he'll be less likely to
take you up on your offers.
<<I have two nephews who are this way (they are both 8 and 9-they are
public school children though,not that it makes a difference).>>
Makes a world of difference. Are their parents actively and
energetically supporting their interest in games?
<<They sit in their rooms and play games for hours and hours and they
have been this way for months.>>
Do their parents interact with them? Play the games a little - enough
to be game-literate, at least? Have conversations about the games and
how its going and what the player is working on and what do they think
about the design of the game? Do their parents find interesting
tidbits of information about the games to share with their kids? Do
they look up who composed the music and find out what else that
composer wrote. Find the music for the kid to play on a keyboard or
other musical instrument that they might be interested in? Do they
surprise their kids by putting their favorite game music all on a cd
or on a playlist to be put on their iPods? Do the parents look around
to see if there are any museums with special exhibits related to video
games. Google "video game museum" and see what cool things there are
there. Look at <http://www.videotopia.com/>. Do their parents notice
when there are game conventions going on and plan family vacations
around them? (Blizzcon 2008 was in October in Southern California a
block away from Disneyland - that would have made a fantastic family
vacation - information is not yet available about a possible Blizzcon
2009.) Kid loves tv? Plan a family vacation to include tv-show
tapings, a tour of a tv studio. We went to Manhattan in June and one
of the things we did was visit locations that we knew because of
favorite tv shows. You can find pre-designed tours online or even take
specialized bus tours based on specific tv shows. There are two
Museums of Television and Radio - one in Los Angeles and on in New
York City - they are really amazing places where we've spent many
happy hours.
<< I guess I do not want my child to be like that. >>
Don't you be like their parents, then.
<<Should I just leave my son alone and let him play video games and
watch tv all the time?>>
No. HELP him play what he wants and make it nicer for him. Take him
food, help make him comfortable, buy him manuals, keep an eye out for
sales on games or expansion packs. Get him good gaming equipment.Get a
Wii and play the sports games and Rock Band and others of the new
games that are more active and fun for the whole family. Also, notice
what kinds of video games he likes to play. Are they strategic
thinking games or more physical dexterity types of games? Use that as
a guide to other things he might enjoy. If it is the strategic
thinking he likes, then get other strategy games like Blockus or
Othello or Pente to play as a family. If it is more shoot 'em up
games, take the family and some friends out to play laser tag. If the
games he plays involve role-playing and he likes that, then maybe
introduce him to D&D or other role-playing games - start a regular
"game day" with a couple of friends.
<< How can I get him to want to do something else? He is only 9 and I
am not sure if it is healthy for him to zone out infront of a TV and
video games all day. >>
Don't insult him, even in your own head. "Zone out" is condescending
and degrading. He's actively playing or watching something. Why? What
does he love about it? How can you enhance his enjoyment of it?
Remember your job as an unschooling parent is to support his interests
and bring the world to him and him to the world. Are you doing your
part?
<<I know this may not seem like a big thing to the long time
unschooling parents and probably sounds pretty silly, but I am still
new and not sure if this is even natural. Confused!!>>
Hope this post helps shake up your thinking a little.
-pam
> Thank you so very much. I think where my challenges come in is theReally? He does absolutely nothing else at all?
> fact that I can not get my son to want to do anything besides play
> video games or watch tv.
<<Even getting him to go outside is a challenge.>>
He loves what he is doing and you're trying to make him do something
he doesn't enjoy as much. "Go outside" doesn't sound like much fun to
me, either. Go swimming might sound fun. Go to the park with friends
might sound fun. Build a fort might sound fun. Draw with sidewalk
chalk might sound fun (especially if we had one of those sprayers made
for chalk). Taking karate or scuba diving or skiing lessons might be
fun. My point is that your job as an unschooling parent is to offer
enticing and interesting and fun experiences, not to try to make him
"go outside."
<I guess I am afraid he will turn into one of those people whose whole
life is games and tv.>>
My youngest daughter (17) is thinking about a career in television.
She LOVES television shows - loves watching them over and over and
loves reading about them and analyzing and talking about them. She
works (teaches karate) and spends a lot of her earnings buying tv
shows on dvd. Loving television as much as she does, plus playing a
lot of video games and role playing games like D&D, hasn't kept her
from also doing lots of other things - she dances and plays soccer.
She just had 6 soccer games in 3 days. She's got lots of friends -
spent yesterday at Disneyland with a group of them. She reads a lot,
too, and listens to a lot of music.
Don't look at the tv/gaming as a 'problem' that you have to pull him
away from. It may seem paradoxical, but if you focus on supporting his
tv and gaming interests and expanding on them and also offering lots
of other options that you think he might enjoy, he will be more likely
to take advantage of all those cool options you're offering. If, on
the other hand, you're focusing on pulling him away from what he loves
(games and tv), you will create resistance and he'll be less likely to
take you up on your offers.
<<I have two nephews who are this way (they are both 8 and 9-they are
public school children though,not that it makes a difference).>>
Makes a world of difference. Are their parents actively and
energetically supporting their interest in games?
<<They sit in their rooms and play games for hours and hours and they
have been this way for months.>>
Do their parents interact with them? Play the games a little - enough
to be game-literate, at least? Have conversations about the games and
how its going and what the player is working on and what do they think
about the design of the game? Do their parents find interesting
tidbits of information about the games to share with their kids? Do
they look up who composed the music and find out what else that
composer wrote. Find the music for the kid to play on a keyboard or
other musical instrument that they might be interested in? Do they
surprise their kids by putting their favorite game music all on a cd
or on a playlist to be put on their iPods? Do the parents look around
to see if there are any museums with special exhibits related to video
games. Google "video game museum" and see what cool things there are
there. Look at <http://www.videotopia.com/>. Do their parents notice
when there are game conventions going on and plan family vacations
around them? (Blizzcon 2008 was in October in Southern California a
block away from Disneyland - that would have made a fantastic family
vacation - information is not yet available about a possible Blizzcon
2009.) Kid loves tv? Plan a family vacation to include tv-show
tapings, a tour of a tv studio. We went to Manhattan in June and one
of the things we did was visit locations that we knew because of
favorite tv shows. You can find pre-designed tours online or even take
specialized bus tours based on specific tv shows. There are two
Museums of Television and Radio - one in Los Angeles and on in New
York City - they are really amazing places where we've spent many
happy hours.
<< I guess I do not want my child to be like that. >>
Don't you be like their parents, then.
<<Should I just leave my son alone and let him play video games and
watch tv all the time?>>
No. HELP him play what he wants and make it nicer for him. Take him
food, help make him comfortable, buy him manuals, keep an eye out for
sales on games or expansion packs. Get him good gaming equipment.Get a
Wii and play the sports games and Rock Band and others of the new
games that are more active and fun for the whole family. Also, notice
what kinds of video games he likes to play. Are they strategic
thinking games or more physical dexterity types of games? Use that as
a guide to other things he might enjoy. If it is the strategic
thinking he likes, then get other strategy games like Blockus or
Othello or Pente to play as a family. If it is more shoot 'em up
games, take the family and some friends out to play laser tag. If the
games he plays involve role-playing and he likes that, then maybe
introduce him to D&D or other role-playing games - start a regular
"game day" with a couple of friends.
<< How can I get him to want to do something else? He is only 9 and I
am not sure if it is healthy for him to zone out infront of a TV and
video games all day. >>
Don't insult him, even in your own head. "Zone out" is condescending
and degrading. He's actively playing or watching something. Why? What
does he love about it? How can you enhance his enjoyment of it?
Remember your job as an unschooling parent is to support his interests
and bring the world to him and him to the world. Are you doing your
part?
<<I know this may not seem like a big thing to the long time
unschooling parents and probably sounds pretty silly, but I am still
new and not sure if this is even natural. Confused!!>>
Hope this post helps shake up your thinking a little.
-pam
Jenny C
I am afraid that I am not sure what to do anymore.What I mean
book to read because it clearly describes how children do and don't
learn and why. I think it will help you see how pushing paper work and
making him do tests, isn't really going to get the results you want.
Learning is everywhere. You are learning right now in each and every
moment and it's no different for kids, except they seem to be bigger
sponges soaking up more at a single time.
get their degrees. They learn child psychology and ages and stages and
various methods of teaching. Most of that stuff doesn't apply in a one
on one situation like what happens in homeschooling. Teaching and
teaching degrees are part of a self perpetuating system that feeds upon
itself. It doesn't care much if it's working, it only cares that it
gets enough satisfactory students to get funding for the next year.
Nothing in school and the teaching industry is about "real" learning, or
what works for "real" kids in the "real" world. It's a system that
wants a bottom line mediocre level of knowledge, to justify the tax
expenditures and the need for it's own existence.
you can't change that thinking or that belief. People really do learn
all the time. Don't stay stuck in old thinking or old beliefs,
especially if they aren't working. Really ask yourself how your
children are going to fail by watching TV.
What is it they will fail at? What would cause your children to fail?
How do you measure failure? Those ideas of success and failure within
education are created by the idea that you have to succeed, get good
grades, but if everyone can't succeed in that environment, it inherently
creates failures. Unschooling works within a different dichotomy, one
in which everyone succeeds to their own standards because they are doing
what they want to do for their individual needs.
There is learning in video games and TV, you just have to SEE it. You
won't be able to see it if you are measuring everything with school
eyes. Remember schools don't necessarily care about learning, they
really care more about teaching and passing tests, which isn't a real
measure of learning.
> is this, because I was raised a certain way and so was my husband IHave you read any John Holt books? How Children Fail, is a really good
> feel like I am not doing my part by forcing paper work on him or
> making him do tests and such. I am having a hard time getting this
> structured way of schooling (that I did not like myself growing up)
> out of my system. I feel that if I do not have paper work for him to
> do, tests for him to take, or a ton of reading to do, that I am not
> doing a good job and therefore he will not learn.
book to read because it clearly describes how children do and don't
learn and why. I think it will help you see how pushing paper work and
making him do tests, isn't really going to get the results you want.
Learning is everywhere. You are learning right now in each and every
moment and it's no different for kids, except they seem to be bigger
sponges soaking up more at a single time.
>Teachers learn classroom management more than any other thing when they
> I already know that all this stuff is not working for him.There are
> endless tears, frustration and anger on both our parts and I do not
> want this.Also I have family breathing down my neck because they feel
> that since I am not a teacher I am not qualified and that he will be
> behind on things that they would be teaching him in a public school.
get their degrees. They learn child psychology and ages and stages and
various methods of teaching. Most of that stuff doesn't apply in a one
on one situation like what happens in homeschooling. Teaching and
teaching degrees are part of a self perpetuating system that feeds upon
itself. It doesn't care much if it's working, it only cares that it
gets enough satisfactory students to get funding for the next year.
Nothing in school and the teaching industry is about "real" learning, or
what works for "real" kids in the "real" world. It's a system that
wants a bottom line mediocre level of knowledge, to justify the tax
expenditures and the need for it's own existence.
>Even if your were raised to think or believe a certain way, doesn't mean
> There are days when all my son wants to do is watch TV or play video
> games.I guess I shouldn't complain to much cause he likes to watch
> Animal Planet, Food Network or the History Channel a lot. But again, I
> was raised to think that too much tv can cause a child to fail and is
> not good, and I feel terrible for letting him sometimes.I feel as if I
> should restrict him some.
you can't change that thinking or that belief. People really do learn
all the time. Don't stay stuck in old thinking or old beliefs,
especially if they aren't working. Really ask yourself how your
children are going to fail by watching TV.
What is it they will fail at? What would cause your children to fail?
How do you measure failure? Those ideas of success and failure within
education are created by the idea that you have to succeed, get good
grades, but if everyone can't succeed in that environment, it inherently
creates failures. Unschooling works within a different dichotomy, one
in which everyone succeeds to their own standards because they are doing
what they want to do for their individual needs.
There is learning in video games and TV, you just have to SEE it. You
won't be able to see it if you are measuring everything with school
eyes. Remember schools don't necessarily care about learning, they
really care more about teaching and passing tests, which isn't a real
measure of learning.
Pamela Sorooshian
Even in that long post I just wrote, I left out something important.
Respect and honor your child's interest by giving them the space and
time to enjoy and pursue it without unwanted interruptions. Long hours
of uninterrupted play time or viewing time are one of the gifts we can
give our kids.
Some people find that their kids become miserable and cranky or
aggressive when they spend a long time playing video games or watching
television. I think this is often due to not eating enough, but also
could be that those young bodies need more activity. Solve the first
problem by keeping them fed - put plates of easy-to-nibble-at foods
nearby - crackers and cheese and sliced apples or grapes or pieces of
leftover turkey. Get insulated coffee cups with lids and put chicken
or veggie broth in them so they can sip at it and it stays hot. Also,
make sure the game is physically comfortable - watch him play and see
if things need to be moved around. Does he need a better chair? Higher
or lower screen? Lighting changed so it isn't reflecting in the
screen? Better speakers? Also, if playing computer games, is the
computer fast enough for the game? It can be really frustrating to try
to play a game on a computer that isn't really quite adequate.
I'm a little concerned that my long list of examples of how you can
support and expand and build on video game and tv interests could make
some people think that they should constantly barrage their child with
other things to do. Be sensitive and be aware of whether your offering
ideas is welcome and whether it seems be well accepted. You'll build
credibility as your offerings are discovered to be worthwhile.
-pam
Respect and honor your child's interest by giving them the space and
time to enjoy and pursue it without unwanted interruptions. Long hours
of uninterrupted play time or viewing time are one of the gifts we can
give our kids.
Some people find that their kids become miserable and cranky or
aggressive when they spend a long time playing video games or watching
television. I think this is often due to not eating enough, but also
could be that those young bodies need more activity. Solve the first
problem by keeping them fed - put plates of easy-to-nibble-at foods
nearby - crackers and cheese and sliced apples or grapes or pieces of
leftover turkey. Get insulated coffee cups with lids and put chicken
or veggie broth in them so they can sip at it and it stays hot. Also,
make sure the game is physically comfortable - watch him play and see
if things need to be moved around. Does he need a better chair? Higher
or lower screen? Lighting changed so it isn't reflecting in the
screen? Better speakers? Also, if playing computer games, is the
computer fast enough for the game? It can be really frustrating to try
to play a game on a computer that isn't really quite adequate.
I'm a little concerned that my long list of examples of how you can
support and expand and build on video game and tv interests could make
some people think that they should constantly barrage their child with
other things to do. Be sensitive and be aware of whether your offering
ideas is welcome and whether it seems be well accepted. You'll build
credibility as your offerings are discovered to be worthwhile.
-pam
leana randolph
>When you work out in the sun and go into a dark room, you can't seeWow! This is it! This is what I was trying to say and I could not put it into words. This is how I was feeling about approaching unschooling. As much as I know it will work for my family I guess I am a little scared and nervous because this is new.It is a whole different level of learning for both my children, my husband and I.
>anything. When people have been blinded by school and they turn
>toward natural learning, they can't see anything at first.They only
>see the "not schoolness" and it seems like all kinds of dark, bad
>things.
>http://sandradodd. com/deschoolingI have read some of the links on that website but not all. I will be reading them all for sure now,even twice so I know they are sinking in. I need all the help and encouragement that I can get and I thank all of you for this.My family is gonna start deschooling together, including my husband and I. We all need this. I have read about deschooling the child but never the parent and I guess until the parent is deschooled then they can not fully deschool the child. I did not realize how much my family needed this process until you pointed it out. Thanks! I guess what it really comes down to is that I keep trying to please everyone else, as impossible and pointless as it is. To show them that I will not fail at teaching my children like they expect me to, and that I can raise geniuses (or so they think I should) , when really what I need to be doing is pleasing my children and husband and caring less what others think.
>Read all of it, all the links, maybe twice, and let your son play all
>the games he wants. Leave him alone for hours. Find some things
>you've wished you had done--projects around the house, hobbies,
>movies you haven't seen for a long time or ever. Start your own
>recovery and relax into the possibility that learning is everywhere
>and peace can be at your house bigtime.
I am so glad I found this group. I really needed to surround myself with people who share similiar views as me and are/have been, in the same boat as I am.Whew! I feel like I can breathe again :)
LeAna
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 1:49:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
-=-Thanks. I guess I never really gave my son enough time to
deschool.In fact I am not sure I ever gave him any time to deschool.
I think that might of contributed to my feeling of loss.-=-
It's not too late.
In fact, unschooling isn't going to work for you unless and until
you've gone through a deschooling time.
-=-Also the fact that all he wants is video games and tv too which I
am hoping will change soon. -=
You need to stop hoping it will change before it can change. This
whole unschooling thing is tricky. If he's reacting to what you
want, he won't be making his own real choices. If you're living by
his actions and choices, you won't be making interesting choices
yourself.
The general recommendation (which has stood since before I was
unschooling) is deschooling takes a month for every month the person
was in school. All school counts. School at home counts. So don't
expect recovery before one month per year.
-=-I am almost wondering if I need some deschooling time for myself
too. :) -=-
No wondering, no smiley, you do!!
You went to school ten years or twelve maybe, I'm guessing. So your
own feelings about school will need ten months OFF. Not ten months
of changing your mind every few weeks. Ten solid months of
consciously trying to live like it's summer vacation or a great
Saturday (from when you were in school). Only then will you start to
get the clearheadedness to see learning.
When you work out in the sun and go into a dark room, you can't see
anything. When people have been blinded by school and they turn
toward natural learning, they can't see anything at first. They only
see the "not schoolness" and it seems like all kinds of dark, bad
things.
http://sandradodd. com/deschooling
Read all of it, all the links, maybe twice, and let your son play all
the games he wants. Leave him alone for hours. Find some things
you've wished you had done--projects around the house, hobbies,
movies you haven't seen for a long time or ever. Start your own
recovery and relax into the possibility that learning is everywhere
and peace can be at your house bigtime.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 2, 2008, at 12:52 PM, leana randolph wrote:
doing something they enjoy, but they're catching up from the hours
they couldn't play *and* they're using it to de-pressurize from
school. The actions of an unschooling child playing for fun and a
schooled child playing for other reasons in addition to fun may look
the same on the surface, but beneath there's more going on.
something because you enjoy it.
I watched a lot of TV when I was a kid. And I usually had my nose in
a book. Often at the same time! While I enjoyed doing both of those,
the length I went to was caused by school. (Now, I don't watch nearly
as much TV as I'd like! Just too many more interesting things to do.)
Several unschoolers have commented that they loved to immerse
themselves in a book as kids too and expected their kids might be the
same but it doesn't seem as prevalent among unschooling kids. Not
that there aren't unschooling kids who love to read, but there aren't
unschooling kids who need to use a love of reading to escape for a
while from their lives.
The gaming will continue as long as the games are fascinating *and*
until your son feels he can set it down and can pick it back up
anytime he wants. But he won't have that other layer of needing to
decompress and escape from school.
Bring him food. Play with him so you're up on the games yourself and
can hold up your end of the conversation. Become aware of when he
needs you to be vacation director with new and exciting offerings and
when to back off and let him freely explore.
want to do something else? Would you appreciate him hovering,
wondering when you'd move on? What would it do to the atmosphere in
the house if you knew he was fretting over how you were spending your
leisure time and that he was judging it as not up to his standards of
good uses of time?
If he *is* zoning, it isn't the TV and games that's causing it. It's
a response to something in his world. Schooled kids zone out from
school. Working adults zone out from work. TV is just their choice of
medication for what ails them. Take away what ails them and the
zoning will eventually go away when they're recovered.
Joyce
> I am afraid he will turn into one of those people whose whole lifeHeavens, yes, it makes a difference! Not only are the schooled kids
> is games and tv. I have two nephews who are this way (they are both
> 8 and 9-they are public school children though,not that it makes a
> difference).
doing something they enjoy, but they're catching up from the hours
they couldn't play *and* they're using it to de-pressurize from
school. The actions of an unschooling child playing for fun and a
schooled child playing for other reasons in addition to fun may look
the same on the surface, but beneath there's more going on.
> They sit in their rooms and play games for hours and hours and theyThere's a big difference between doing something to escape and doing
> have been this way for months. I guess I do not want my child to be
> like that.
>
something because you enjoy it.
I watched a lot of TV when I was a kid. And I usually had my nose in
a book. Often at the same time! While I enjoyed doing both of those,
the length I went to was caused by school. (Now, I don't watch nearly
as much TV as I'd like! Just too many more interesting things to do.)
Several unschoolers have commented that they loved to immerse
themselves in a book as kids too and expected their kids might be the
same but it doesn't seem as prevalent among unschooling kids. Not
that there aren't unschooling kids who love to read, but there aren't
unschooling kids who need to use a love of reading to escape for a
while from their lives.
The gaming will continue as long as the games are fascinating *and*
until your son feels he can set it down and can pick it back up
anytime he wants. But he won't have that other layer of needing to
decompress and escape from school.
> Should I just leave my son alone and let him play video games andYes and no. Give him space to enjoy. But do pay attention to him! :-)
> watch tv all the time?
>
Bring him food. Play with him so you're up on the games yourself and
can hold up your end of the conversation. Become aware of when he
needs you to be vacation director with new and exciting offerings and
when to back off and let him freely explore.
> How can I get him to want to do something else?If you were engrossed in a book, how could your husband get you to
>
want to do something else? Would you appreciate him hovering,
wondering when you'd move on? What would it do to the atmosphere in
the house if you knew he was fretting over how you were spending your
leisure time and that he was judging it as not up to his standards of
good uses of time?
> He is only 9 and I am not sure if it is healthy for him to zone outHe's not zoning. He's engrossed.
> infront of a TV and video games all day.
>
If he *is* zoning, it isn't the TV and games that's causing it. It's
a response to something in his world. Schooled kids zone out from
school. Working adults zone out from work. TV is just their choice of
medication for what ails them. Take away what ails them and the
zoning will eventually go away when they're recovered.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-Not
that there aren't unschooling kids who love to read, but there aren't
unschooling kids who need to use a love of reading to escape for a
while from their lives.-=-
I used books to escape emotionally and mentally, and also
physically. Because reading was "good," I got out of errands and
chores and "help me for a minute" if I was reading and my sister or
cousins were doing something less glorified.
Holly was playing Putt Putt Joins the Circus or one of those
yesterday. I found a little stash of old computer games the kids had
asked me not to give away once when I was giving a bunch of stuff
away. The last time she played these games she couldn't read. Now
she's seeing them in a whole new way, and she's going into the
"teacher" parts where it keeps track of the skills you're learning
(I'm mixing this up with Third Grade Adventure; that's the one with
the teacher section.)
Some of the animation is really pretty. It's like being in a cartoon
one can affect and explore. Other characters react.
Meanwhile Marty is playing Fallout 3, which is like a mystery movie
one can affect and explore. I read lots of mysteries as a kid, but
they turn out the same way no matter who's reading it or how.
What they're doing fulfills MANY of the things kids and adults both
have valued in books, and then some.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that there aren't unschooling kids who love to read, but there aren't
unschooling kids who need to use a love of reading to escape for a
while from their lives.-=-
I used books to escape emotionally and mentally, and also
physically. Because reading was "good," I got out of errands and
chores and "help me for a minute" if I was reading and my sister or
cousins were doing something less glorified.
Holly was playing Putt Putt Joins the Circus or one of those
yesterday. I found a little stash of old computer games the kids had
asked me not to give away once when I was giving a bunch of stuff
away. The last time she played these games she couldn't read. Now
she's seeing them in a whole new way, and she's going into the
"teacher" parts where it keeps track of the skills you're learning
(I'm mixing this up with Third Grade Adventure; that's the one with
the teacher section.)
Some of the animation is really pretty. It's like being in a cartoon
one can affect and explore. Other characters react.
Meanwhile Marty is playing Fallout 3, which is like a mystery movie
one can affect and explore. I read lots of mysteries as a kid, but
they turn out the same way no matter who's reading it or how.
What they're doing fulfills MANY of the things kids and adults both
have valued in books, and then some.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leana randolph
>If you were engrossed in a book, how could your husband get you toOh my goodness you are soooo right! I love to read and when I feel I am being rushed, hovered over or even that it might be taken away I start to get aggravated. HAHA I could spend countless hours in the library just browsing and when I feel my husband is rushing and ready to go I do get irritated because being there surrounded by those books soothes me. The same applies to my son's games and the way you phrased it makes sense to me.
>want to do something else? Would you appreciate him hovering,
>wondering when you'd move on? What would it do to the atmosphere in
>the house if you knew he was fretting over how you were spending your
>leisure time and that he was judging it as not up to his standards of
>good uses of time?
About my nephews with games after public schooling, I didn't even think of this being their way of recovering for the day after all that boring mind numbing paper work. It makes sense! I use to read when I got home from school. You could not pull me away from a book, the funny thing about it though was I did not like to read the books that was assigned to me to read for class and therefore I would fail whatever tests was given on the book. It wasn't that I did not enjoy reading I just did not want to read what they wanted me to. And so when I got home I would spend countless hours reading whatever I wanted.
No one ever mentions too much reading is bad even if you fail your reading and language arts class HAHA!
Thank you for pointing that out to me. When you associate my love for reading with his love for games it really does make a ton of sense to me :)
LeAna
________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 2:45:18 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: New to the group and unschooling. A little lengthy but need some help.
On Dec 2, 2008, at 12:52 PM, leana randolph wrote:
> I am afraid he will turn into one of those people whose whole life
> is games and tv. I have two nephews who are this way (they are both
> 8 and 9-they are public school children though,not that it makes a
> difference).
Heavens, yes, it makes a difference! Not only are the schooled kids
doing something they enjoy, but they're catching up from the hours
they couldn't play *and* they're using it to de-pressurize from
school. The actions of an unschooling child playing for fun and a
schooled child playing for other reasons in addition to fun may look
the same on the surface, but beneath there's more going on.
> They sit in their rooms and play games for hours and hours and they
> have been this way for months. I guess I do not want my child to be
> like that.
>
There's a big difference between doing something to escape and doing
something because you enjoy it.
I watched a lot of TV when I was a kid. And I usually had my nose in
a book. Often at the same time! While I enjoyed doing both of those,
the length I went to was caused by school. (Now, I don't watch nearly
as much TV as I'd like! Just too many more interesting things to do.)
Several unschoolers have commented that they loved to immerse
themselves in a book as kids too and expected their kids might be the
same but it doesn't seem as prevalent among unschooling kids. Not
that there aren't unschooling kids who love to read, but there aren't
unschooling kids who need to use a love of reading to escape for a
while from their lives.
The gaming will continue as long as the games are fascinating *and*
until your son feels he can set it down and can pick it back up
anytime he wants. But he won't have that other layer of needing to
decompress and escape from school.
> Should I just leave my son alone and let him play video games and
> watch tv all the time?
>
Yes and no. Give him space to enjoy. But do pay attention to him! :-)
Bring him food. Play with him so you're up on the games yourself and
can hold up your end of the conversation. Become aware of when he
needs you to be vacation director with new and exciting offerings and
when to back off and let him freely explore.
> How can I get him to want to do something else?
>
If you were engrossed in a book, how could your husband get you to
want to do something else? Would you appreciate him hovering,
wondering when you'd move on? What would it do to the atmosphere in
the house if you knew he was fretting over how you were spending your
leisure time and that he was judging it as not up to his standards of
good uses of time?
> He is only 9 and I am not sure if it is healthy for him to zone out
> infront of a TV and video games all day.
>
He's not zoning. He's engrossed.
If he *is* zoning, it isn't the TV and games that's causing it. It's
a response to something in his world. Schooled kids zone out from
school. Working adults zone out from work. TV is just their choice of
medication for what ails them. Take away what ails them and the
zoning will eventually go away when they're recovered.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], leana randolph
<leanarandolph@...> wrote:
video games or watch tv. Even getting him to go outside is a
challenge. I guess I am afraid he will turn into one of those people
whose whole life is games and tv. I have two nephews who are this way
(they are both 8 and 9-they are public school children though,not
that it makes a difference).They sit in their rooms and play games
for hours and hours and they have been this way for months. I guess I
do not want my child to be like that. Should I just leave my son
alone and let him play video games and watch tv all the time? How can
I get him to want to do something else? He is only 9 and I am not
sure if it is healthy for him to zone out infront of a TV and video
games all day. I know this may not seem like a big thing to the long
time unschooling parents and probably sounds pretty silly, but I am
still new and not sure
year although he didn't exactly enjoy it. Then the following year he
became noticeably unhappy and was becoming progressively unhappier.
He has a ten years older sister - now a university graduate - who had
always excelled at school. The year he started school, she was Dux of
the Year at her high school. She graduated from high school the
following year in the top 1% in the state.
So, when our son reached the stage of not wanting to go to school, it
was very difficult for my wife and I not to believe that helping him
adapt to school culture was the right way to go.
That's what we worked on initially and, unfortunately, it only made
things worse.
I'd always been as involved as possible with both of my children's
schooling and at the time I was already inside my son's school nearly
every day. I attended virtually every morning assembly, I was also a
parent helper in the school's remedial reading program (though they
didn't call it that - non-PC apparently) two mornings a week, and I
was also helping out occasionally in the canteen and with classroom
activities.
Observing the teaching in the classroom was like watching paint dry.
That was a major factor in my wife and I ultimately deciding to take
our son out of school and to homeschool him.
Of course, our primary concern was for our son to be happy, whatever
the solution needed to be, but, thinking at the time in terms of how
he would be educated, we could see that it made no sense for him to
be in a school classroom all day if he was unhappy with that when he
could clearly do more in less time at home. So I suppose it could be
said that a desire for 'educational efficiency' was one of the
reasons that led us to try homeschooling as a remedy for our son's
unhappiness.
The homeschooling was three hours a day, based on subjects not a
curriculum and very informal, no having to sit at a table or anything
like that. Very much "guide on the side", but still working to a set
timetable. That lasted about two weeks. My son hated it and didn't
want to do it. If he didn't want to do it, neither did I. My wife and
I were not going to exchange one unhappy situation for another, so we
gave our son the year off to do what he liked. What he liked was
videogaming, watching TV and surfing the internet.
Our thinking was, well, he's only seven, there's plenty of time for
him to catch up with anything if he needs to, we'll resume the formal
education next year.
We never did. Our son's lifestyle is much the same today, six years
later.
And, while it's true that he can't recite the months of the year in
order, that's something he can memorise in half an hour if he ever
needs to (otherwise just look at a calendar!), and 'gaps' like that
are more than compensated for by what he does know. What he knows -
and understands - about the world he lives in and his culture and how
society works is way, way, way ahead of what I knew when I was his
age.
I'm so envious of that boy sometimes. :-)
Oh, and he's never been left alone in his interests. Not that I'm
involved all the time by any means, but our days together usually
include some playing videogames together, watching TV together,
googling, you tubing, having interesting conversations.
We're both always learning in fact.
And it doesn't bother me in the least that I'm an avid reader and
always in the process of reading at least a couple of books at a time
(ebooks mainly these days) while he won't even touch one.
He's in a whole new world of 'education'. And the indications are
that it's becoming increasingly superior to the old one I grew up
in.
Bob
<leanarandolph@...> wrote:
>fact that I can not get my son to want to do anything besides play
> Thank you so very much. I think where my challenges come in is the
video games or watch tv. Even getting him to go outside is a
challenge. I guess I am afraid he will turn into one of those people
whose whole life is games and tv. I have two nephews who are this way
(they are both 8 and 9-they are public school children though,not
that it makes a difference).They sit in their rooms and play games
for hours and hours and they have been this way for months. I guess I
do not want my child to be like that. Should I just leave my son
alone and let him play video games and watch tv all the time? How can
I get him to want to do something else? He is only 9 and I am not
sure if it is healthy for him to zone out infront of a TV and video
games all day. I know this may not seem like a big thing to the long
time unschooling parents and probably sounds pretty silly, but I am
still new and not sure
> if this is even natural. Confused!!My son went to school for two years. He was okay in his kindergarten
>
> LeAna
>
>
>
>
year although he didn't exactly enjoy it. Then the following year he
became noticeably unhappy and was becoming progressively unhappier.
He has a ten years older sister - now a university graduate - who had
always excelled at school. The year he started school, she was Dux of
the Year at her high school. She graduated from high school the
following year in the top 1% in the state.
So, when our son reached the stage of not wanting to go to school, it
was very difficult for my wife and I not to believe that helping him
adapt to school culture was the right way to go.
That's what we worked on initially and, unfortunately, it only made
things worse.
I'd always been as involved as possible with both of my children's
schooling and at the time I was already inside my son's school nearly
every day. I attended virtually every morning assembly, I was also a
parent helper in the school's remedial reading program (though they
didn't call it that - non-PC apparently) two mornings a week, and I
was also helping out occasionally in the canteen and with classroom
activities.
Observing the teaching in the classroom was like watching paint dry.
That was a major factor in my wife and I ultimately deciding to take
our son out of school and to homeschool him.
Of course, our primary concern was for our son to be happy, whatever
the solution needed to be, but, thinking at the time in terms of how
he would be educated, we could see that it made no sense for him to
be in a school classroom all day if he was unhappy with that when he
could clearly do more in less time at home. So I suppose it could be
said that a desire for 'educational efficiency' was one of the
reasons that led us to try homeschooling as a remedy for our son's
unhappiness.
The homeschooling was three hours a day, based on subjects not a
curriculum and very informal, no having to sit at a table or anything
like that. Very much "guide on the side", but still working to a set
timetable. That lasted about two weeks. My son hated it and didn't
want to do it. If he didn't want to do it, neither did I. My wife and
I were not going to exchange one unhappy situation for another, so we
gave our son the year off to do what he liked. What he liked was
videogaming, watching TV and surfing the internet.
Our thinking was, well, he's only seven, there's plenty of time for
him to catch up with anything if he needs to, we'll resume the formal
education next year.
We never did. Our son's lifestyle is much the same today, six years
later.
And, while it's true that he can't recite the months of the year in
order, that's something he can memorise in half an hour if he ever
needs to (otherwise just look at a calendar!), and 'gaps' like that
are more than compensated for by what he does know. What he knows -
and understands - about the world he lives in and his culture and how
society works is way, way, way ahead of what I knew when I was his
age.
I'm so envious of that boy sometimes. :-)
Oh, and he's never been left alone in his interests. Not that I'm
involved all the time by any means, but our days together usually
include some playing videogames together, watching TV together,
googling, you tubing, having interesting conversations.
We're both always learning in fact.
And it doesn't bother me in the least that I'm an avid reader and
always in the process of reading at least a couple of books at a time
(ebooks mainly these days) while he won't even touch one.
He's in a whole new world of 'education'. And the indications are
that it's becoming increasingly superior to the old one I grew up
in.
Bob
Sandra Dodd
-=-And, while it's true that he can't recite the months of the year in
order, that's something he can memorise in half an hour if he ever
needs to (otherwise just look at a calendar!)-=-
There's a CD called "Sounds Like Fun" from Discovery Toys that has a
months of the year song. That's how my kids learned them. They
learned days of the week by my singing them to "Yankee Doodle while I
brushed their teeth, or when we were stirring batter or something
that needed time to pass.
-=-He's in a whole new world of 'education'. And the indications are
that it's becoming increasingly superior to the old one I grew up in.
-=-
Holly's not happy with her handwriting. She's been practicing
lately, rows of letters. She showed me a set one day and said I
shouldn't tell her what I didn't like because she knew some were bad,
but she asked me which were my favorites. She has a job in a shop,
and there's not much writing but a little bit. Someone she works
with has worse writing than she has and that made her feel less
totally-off-the-charts. Then we were choosing board games to take to
a Thanksgiving get-together, and I suggested we take some that didn't
involve a lot of reading because one of our friends doesn't read
really well and is self conscious about it. She said "Why didn't you
introduce me to him a long time ago!?"
She's known him her whole life. He's beloved of everyone who knows
him--he's never had half an enemy, and he's successful and competent
and good looking and has lived with the same woman for 20 years.
Holly didn't know someone like that, in his 40's, could have a lack
like that. Again, she felt better. And having been linguistically
competent but not a fluent reader when she was old enough to be
analytical about it, she was able to choose a couple of games easily.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
order, that's something he can memorise in half an hour if he ever
needs to (otherwise just look at a calendar!)-=-
There's a CD called "Sounds Like Fun" from Discovery Toys that has a
months of the year song. That's how my kids learned them. They
learned days of the week by my singing them to "Yankee Doodle while I
brushed their teeth, or when we were stirring batter or something
that needed time to pass.
-=-He's in a whole new world of 'education'. And the indications are
that it's becoming increasingly superior to the old one I grew up in.
-=-
Holly's not happy with her handwriting. She's been practicing
lately, rows of letters. She showed me a set one day and said I
shouldn't tell her what I didn't like because she knew some were bad,
but she asked me which were my favorites. She has a job in a shop,
and there's not much writing but a little bit. Someone she works
with has worse writing than she has and that made her feel less
totally-off-the-charts. Then we were choosing board games to take to
a Thanksgiving get-together, and I suggested we take some that didn't
involve a lot of reading because one of our friends doesn't read
really well and is self conscious about it. She said "Why didn't you
introduce me to him a long time ago!?"
She's known him her whole life. He's beloved of everyone who knows
him--he's never had half an enemy, and he's successful and competent
and good looking and has lived with the same woman for 20 years.
Holly didn't know someone like that, in his 40's, could have a lack
like that. Again, she felt better. And having been linguistically
competent but not a fluent reader when she was old enough to be
analytical about it, she was able to choose a couple of games easily.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
emiLy Q.
I was reprimanded for knowing how to write my name in cursive in first
grade. Only my name!
-emiLy, mom to Delia (5) & Henry (1.5)
Happy Pottying!
http://www.HappyPottying.com
grade. Only my name!
-emiLy, mom to Delia (5) & Henry (1.5)
Happy Pottying!
http://www.HappyPottying.com
On 12/2/08 7:35 AM, "raisingexplorers" <raisingexplorers@...> wrote:
>> They asked me
>> if I taught my son at home along with what he was learning at school
>> and of course I said yes. They said "Please stop".
>
> This is actually not too uncommon. When I was younger, my mom spent a
> lot of time with me and I learned to read, write and do math (even
> simple algebra) before I attended Kindergarten. It was too late for
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was reprimanded for knowing how to write my name in cursive in
first
grade. Only my name!-=-
Me too! When they said "Write your name here," I did. My granny and
mom had helped me learn to write my name. Both of them had really
pretty handwriting.
When I first went to school I couldn't read, and I learned exactly as
the teacher was teaching us, because I was ready. There weren't many
books at my house and my mom was impatient and really liked my little
sister and spent a lot of time with her. So when I got to school and
saw easy books, and had some phonics lessons and some encouragement,
I could read. They "taught me" or I learned easily, but mostly I
needed clues and resources.
But the teacher told my mom she should not have taught me to write my
name, because it was disruptive and the school wanted to teach me
their way.
The next year, when I was in second grade, my maternal grandfather
(Papaw, but they were both Papaw) taught me to add columns of
numbers, and how to carry into the tens. It was fun! It was cool.
He was glad to teach me, because he had gone to school less than two
years, as a kid in "the aughts" (1906 or so probably; he was born in
1898, give or take a year). So when we were still adding
horizontally in school instead of stacking numbers up, I knew what
was coming in math. I liked it, but the teacher didn't like it as
much, because it meant I was bored and impatient.
I was bored and impatient in school for 11 years before I went to the
university and wasn't so bored or impatient because the material was
new and the pace was fast. Because I got good grades, though, I
wasn't punished much for it. I had friends who were bored and
impatient and refused to do monkey tricks to make good grades. They
were in trouble. They were called hyperactive and academically
behind, and I was called gifted and understimulated.
All of those experiences and all of that knowledge just made it
easier for me to parent and unschool confidently. The damage of the
labelling and the hoop-jumping and the schedule-following make
learning more difficult, and I found it easy to make choices that
make learning easier. It's as thought the darkness of other people's
bad choices and experiences just lit up the path that avoided them
all, and I've been trying to keep the path lit for other people who
hadn't been so analytical about their own school experiences, or who
hadn't seen enough negativity to know what to avoid, or who had seen
nothing BUT negativity and had no idea that there might be alternatives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
first
grade. Only my name!-=-
Me too! When they said "Write your name here," I did. My granny and
mom had helped me learn to write my name. Both of them had really
pretty handwriting.
When I first went to school I couldn't read, and I learned exactly as
the teacher was teaching us, because I was ready. There weren't many
books at my house and my mom was impatient and really liked my little
sister and spent a lot of time with her. So when I got to school and
saw easy books, and had some phonics lessons and some encouragement,
I could read. They "taught me" or I learned easily, but mostly I
needed clues and resources.
But the teacher told my mom she should not have taught me to write my
name, because it was disruptive and the school wanted to teach me
their way.
The next year, when I was in second grade, my maternal grandfather
(Papaw, but they were both Papaw) taught me to add columns of
numbers, and how to carry into the tens. It was fun! It was cool.
He was glad to teach me, because he had gone to school less than two
years, as a kid in "the aughts" (1906 or so probably; he was born in
1898, give or take a year). So when we were still adding
horizontally in school instead of stacking numbers up, I knew what
was coming in math. I liked it, but the teacher didn't like it as
much, because it meant I was bored and impatient.
I was bored and impatient in school for 11 years before I went to the
university and wasn't so bored or impatient because the material was
new and the pace was fast. Because I got good grades, though, I
wasn't punished much for it. I had friends who were bored and
impatient and refused to do monkey tricks to make good grades. They
were in trouble. They were called hyperactive and academically
behind, and I was called gifted and understimulated.
All of those experiences and all of that knowledge just made it
easier for me to parent and unschool confidently. The damage of the
labelling and the hoop-jumping and the schedule-following make
learning more difficult, and I found it easy to make choices that
make learning easier. It's as thought the darkness of other people's
bad choices and experiences just lit up the path that avoided them
all, and I've been trying to keep the path lit for other people who
hadn't been so analytical about their own school experiences, or who
hadn't seen enough negativity to know what to avoid, or who had seen
nothing BUT negativity and had no idea that there might be alternatives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
office junior (do they even exist any more?) and my manager told me he
couldn't read my handwriting. So I went back to the beginning and
learned to write again, same thing: a a a a ....
I don't handwrite much these days but, unless I'm scribbling something
down in a hurry, I don't join up the letters, and that's why.
Bob
>I did that too when I was 16. I'd left school and got a job as an
>
> Holly's not happy with her handwriting. She's been practicing
> lately, rows of letters.
office junior (do they even exist any more?) and my manager told me he
couldn't read my handwriting. So I went back to the beginning and
learned to write again, same thing: a a a a ....
I don't handwrite much these days but, unless I'm scribbling something
down in a hurry, I don't join up the letters, and that's why.
Bob