[email protected]

In a message dated 2/2/2002 3:49:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> <In the early days, I defined "unschooling" as "child-led learning."
> "Child-led learning" works pretty well as a definition, as long as
> you don't take it too seriously. It's easy, however, to carry the
> concept of child-led to the point where it hampers the contribution
> of parents.>>
>
> I agree with that. I never liked "child-led" because it causes people to
> seem to think there are two ways: parent-led or child-led. If it's just
> life, nobody has to lead or follow.

Interest-led learning seems okay to me if we need a short phrase. It feels
open for a bunch of different things to be happening - - such as - kids
learning just by following their own interests with no intervention by
adults, kids asking adults to help them pursue an interest, parents noticing
their kids' interests and facilitating in ways the the kids might not know
are possible (museums, resources, movies, music, ideas, people, etc), parents
offering/suggesting things they think might be of interest to the kids,
parents pursuing their own interests and the kids getting caught up in them
too, parents pursuing their own interests that the kids are not interested in
but it does provide a model for the kids.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., PSoroosh@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/2/2002 3:49:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> AlwaysLearning@y... writes:
>
>
> > <In the early days, I defined "unschooling" as "child-led
learning."
> > "Child-led learning" works pretty well as a definition, as long as
> > you don't take it too seriously. It's easy, however, to carry the
> > concept of child-led to the point where it hampers the
contribution
> > of parents.>>
> >
> > I agree with that. I never liked "child-led" because it causes
people to
> > seem to think there are two ways: parent-led or child-led. If
it's just
> > life, nobody has to lead or follow.
>
> Interest-led learning seems okay to me if we need a short phrase.
It feels
> open for a bunch of different things to be happening - - such as -
kids
> learning just by following their own interests with no intervention
by
> adults, kids asking adults to help them pursue an interest, parents
noticing
> their kids' interests and facilitating in ways the the kids might
not know
> are possible (museums, resources, movies, music, ideas, people,
etc), parents
> offering/suggesting things they think might be of interest to the
kids,
> parents pursuing their own interests and the kids getting caught up
in them
> too, parents pursuing their own interests that the kids are not
interested in
> but it does provide a model for the kids.
>
> --pam



But, interest led can also imply; find out what the child is
interested in it, and come up with all kinds of resources to help
them learn "the basics" through that.
I often avoid describing myself to anyone, because I know they get
visions of me, that aren't even close to accurate. I think
unschooling is hard to define or describe, because there are so many
assumptions that come along with the idea of education, or learning.
You can't wipe all of that away for someone, so a simple description
will never do.
Joanna
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/02 11:52:24 AM, Wilkinson6@... writes:

<< But, interest led can also imply; find out what the child is
interested in it, and come up with all kinds of resources to help
them learn "the basics" through that. >>

So can child-led.

People who use unit studies often blame their kids!

I mean they'll say "He asked me how planes stay up, so we did a unit on
aeronautics."

<< I think
unschooling is hard to define or describe, because there are so many
assumptions that come along with the idea of education, or learning.
You can't wipe all of that away for someone, so a simple description
will never do.>>

True.

So is it true that it's a philosophy?
A set of priorities?
A way of living without doing out snacks by the clock?
A lack of other? (Like the joke about sculpting--just chip away everything
that doesn't look like an elephant, or whatever it was.)

If we were to resolve to say nothing, to share it with nobody so they could
form their own version of it eventually over several lifetimes if necessary,
then unschooling.com won't last another week.

If it can't be defined, what is the task of those who choose to help others
or who have helping others thrust upon them?

Sandra

madrone95006

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> So is it true that it's a philosophy?
> A set of priorities?
> A way of living without doing out snacks by the clock?
> A lack of other? (Like the joke about sculpting--just chip away
everything
> that doesn't look like an elephant, or whatever it was.)

Yes. And no.

Instead of looking for definitions that close things down,
maybe it would be helpful to look for koans that open things
up.

> If we were to resolve to say nothing, to share it with nobody so
they could
> form their own version of it eventually over several lifetimes if
necessary,
> then unschooling.com won't last another week.

I think this statement is false.

Holt managed to write a lot of books without ever defining
unschooling. Even if you don't define it, there's still
plenty to talk about.

> If it can't be defined, what is the task of those who choose to
help others
> or who have helping others thrust upon them?

Use your imagination. Are there any other possible ways
to help people that don't involve giving them definitions
that don't work?

This reminds me so much of people who say, "Well, how will
they ever learn to read without basal readers?" That would
be a good point if basal readers were the only written matter
in the world. Fortunately, we don't live in that world.

Here are some ways that I've seen people move into unschooling:

* Hearing or seeing days in the lives of unschoolers.
* Watching other unschoolers with their kids.
* Watching people who are good with kids, whether they're
unschoolers or not.
* Hearing jokes about unschooling.
* Hearing unschooling anecdotes.
* One sentence dropped in their ear at exactly the right
time.
* Listening to their kids.
* Birthing their babies at home.
* Attachment parenting.
* Having other people recognize the good things they're already
doing with their kids.
* Listening to their own internal wisdom.
* Having public school and then school-at-home blow up in their faces.
* Reading general parenting books.
* Applying their own personal values to their parenting.

There's a huge difference between "this is what you *could*
do" and "this is what you *should* do." The first invites,
the second prescribes.

In my experience, invitation works so much better than
prescription.

--hmm

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/02 1:22:13 PM, heather@... writes:

<< > If it can't be defined, what is the task of those who choose to
help others
> or who have helping others thrust upon them?

<<Use your imagination. Are there any other possible ways
to help people that don't involve giving them definitions
that don't work? >>

Please give me a definition of a definition you've seen someone here give
that didn't work.

I'm wondering what in YOUR imagination we're discussing.

After helping other homeschoolers for ten years, I find statements like "use
your imagination" to be insulting.

How do you think we helped each other on Prodigy in 1982 or whenever it was?
How do you think we helped each other on the AOL forum? How do you think
people help each other at support groups and conventions? How do HEM
articles help people? How did Growing Without Schooling help people?

By telling stories. By showing something someone found (I LOVED the Kathy
Creech essays in GWS), and relating thoughts and conversations. By showing
them what has worked, and what has failed.

When a person reads about, or meets, one unschooling family, she sees the
differences. When she knows more families, reads more accounts, gets
various answers to questions, the picture of the possibilities broadens and
deepens.

When one person comes up claiming to be an unschooler and explaining how she
gets her kids to finish math workbooks, it is not unreasonable for other
actual unschoolers to suggest that that is not a path to unschooling, but
away from it.

<<There's a huge difference between "this is what you *could*
do" and "this is what you *should* do." The first invites,
the second prescribes.>>

They COULD put their kids back in school. There is also "What you might want
to avoid."

Sandra

Pat Cald...

From: SandraDodd@...
>So is it true that it's a philosophy?
>A set of priorities?
>A way of living without doing out snacks by the clock?
>A lack of other? (Like the joke about sculpting--just chip away everything
>that doesn't look like an elephant, or whatever it was.)

For me the idea of having a "set of priorities" has really put the icing on the cake. When Sandra explained that for her type of unschooling [you can debate whether there are other types]learning is a priority, I knew I could adopt this philosophy and never worry about unschooling again. Homes where learning is not a priority will unschool differently than homes where it is. I think it is these priorities that change the look of unschooling from family to family.

The concern over being a coersive parent could be eliminated when there are defined family values or priorities. High on my family's list of priorities or values would be, spending time together as a family, immediate as well as extended; a love of learning; kindness and consideration to others; honesty and integrity; and good manners ie. please, thank you, eating with mouth closed, etc. Discussions of these values would be common and weight along these areas would be given when making decisions cooperatively. *IMHO* those that feel that is it too coersive to express family values openly fall more in line with the philosophy of "Non-Coersive Parenting" than "Unschooling".

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 2/3/02 3:21 PM, madrone95006 at heather@... wrote:

> Are there any other possible ways
> to help people that don't involve giving them definitions
> that don't work?

I think the defining of unschooling is such a minor player in what goes on
at Unschooling.com, the email list and here that it really isn't worth
worrying over. At least not here. If you're talking about the world out
there where unschooling is undefined, I don't see anything productive that
can come of discussing it since there isn't any one influence that's causing
that.

Occasionally newbies come in to the message boards and want a quick answer
to what unschooling is and it does get defined -- generally in a variety of
ways. But they're told the best way to understand unschooling is to read the
message board. The message board is full of personal stories, discussion,
days in the life. All the things you say you'd rather see.

> I think, though,
> that I'd rather see unschooling unfold naturally in people's lives,
> even if it takes longer, than emerge from a struggle.

I think the idea is pretty. I think if unschooling were for each individual,
like enlightenment, then they could spend a lifetime working at it.

I think that if everyone had a neighbor who radiated patience and glorious
free kids, that people could come to unschooling naturally. They could see a
living example of something valuable that could counteract the message that
the only road worth travelling is the road to success.

But people don't. Most are surrounded by a school mindset on the fast track
to success.

Theories are good. But testing them out in practice is even better. Why
don't you get onto the Unschooling.com message board and put some of your
theories into practice with the newbies? There are some nurturing hand
holders there :-) (AnneO comes to mind.)

> The natural learning potential of human children is truly amazing.
> I can't imagine how a parent could watch that and not step
> back, awed and humbled by how well it works.
>
> Get a hit of that, and everything else follows naturally.

But they do. In droves. Most parents are right there from the beginning,
watching their kids absorb life. But there's just too much certainty around
them that that is a sweet, innocent time, but it's not enough for the
future. I've heard far too many reports of people flabbergasted that some
kids aren't in preschool. ("They'll be handicapped in school if they don't
get a head start!" (Behind already at 3.)) And parents believe that message
over the messages that say it's okay to slow down. But it's just too scary
to slow down. Their kids' lives are at stake.

I think what you're envisioning isn't unschooling. I think it's something
good, encouraging people to tune out the noise and listen to their hearts.
But how far from their comfort zones would their hearts allow them to go
without a model that's way past their comfort zone?

Do we all need to be radical feminists to find a free and happy life? No. We
can (to some extent) unfold naturally to be who we are. But how far could we
unfold if the radical feminists hadn't pushed the envelope as far as they
did? If there hadn't been people saying "That's not respectful!" our vision
of respectful would still be men taking care of women.

I think you underestimate the capacity of society to create rules, and the
capacity of people to like rules to follow. Unless there's a radical element
that keeps reminding people that those rules aren't necessary, people tend
to be drawn to rules rather than doing what they think is best.

Joyce

neilinda

~ "...What brought you here? ~Kelly"

Someone recommended i check out this group several weeks ago because of an ongoing TCS discussion.
Since then i have become curious what this group meant when using the term...
For many people the terms homeschooling and unschooling are almost interchangable.
For others the definitions are quite different.
Some use the term unschooling to describe what they do, but when i have observed them with their children it is clear that unschooling means something quite different to them than it does to me...
---linda














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

I don't think that learning occurs optimally when there are
artificially segregated age groups that are assumed to learn one best
way. I am such a "radical unschooler" that I don't separate adults
out as "schoolish learners" and children as "unschooling learners".
My definition of unschooling incorporates learning all the time, not
just while one is young. I believe you CAN teach old dogs new tricks.

It is a more tedious and complex process to unlearn old ways which no
longer are useful. My counselor encouraged me that 'anything that can
be learned, can be unlearned'. I learned not to trust in childhood, I
am unlearning this by embracing collaborative learning and
collaborative problem solving. I am seeing that it is a more useful
skill for my son to learn this way and am incorporating it into all
of my relationships too. It has been much more useful in the past to
stake out an area of expertise such as critical care nursing. But now
I am seeing a bigger picture of my caregiving role which incorporates
nurturing beyond patients and children.

I don't restrict "unschooling" to a way of learning new concepts,
unschooling to me is a way of learning life. The most important life
skills to me are trust, self-determination, non-coercion. While my
son practices these life skills, other subjects and concepts have a
foundation upon which to build.

Pat

--- In [email protected], "neilinda" <neilinda@c...>
wrote:
> ~ "...What brought you here? ~Kelly"
>
> Someone recommended i check out this group several weeks ago
because of an ongoing TCS discussion.
> Since then i have become curious what this group meant when using
the term...
> For many people the terms homeschooling and unschooling are almost
interchangable.
> For others the definitions are quite different.
> Some use the term unschooling to describe what they do, but when i
have observed them with their children it is clear that unschooling
means something quite different to them than it does to me...
> ---linda
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/2004 5:07:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
neilinda@... writes:

For many people the terms homeschooling and unschooling are almost
interchangable.
For others the definitions are quite different.
Some use the term unschooling to describe what they do, but when i have
observed them with their children it is clear that unschooling means something
quite different to them than it does to me... <<<<

For many people homeschooling and unschooling ARE the same. Helen Hegener
seems to believe so, anyway! <G>

Legally we homeschool; philosophically, we unschool. We live our lives as
if school didn't exist. We don't recreate school at home. We don't do anything
that remotely resembles school. We believe that we're all learning all the
time.

There are many homeSCHOOLers who do just that----a little "school-at-home"
complete with bells and recess. There are many homeschoolers who put together
unit studies, or who are "relaxed", but still require some amount of reading
and math each day. There are some that use the bible as the only "text".

All creationists (bible as text) are homeschoolers, but not all
homeschoolers are creationists. All eclectics are homeschoolers, but not all
homeschoolers are eclectics. All unit studiers are homeschoolers, but not all
homeschoolers are unit studiers.

All unschoolers are legally homeschoolers, but NO homeSCHOOLers are
unschoolers. You can't do both----school-at-home and Unschool.

Many people seem to want to jump on the unschooling bandwagon because we
simply have more fun! <g> Or they like the title. But I think that *they* just
haven't spent much time thinking about unschooling or reading John Holt or
talking with other unschoolers.

Simply, it is NOT "doing" school, but many of us (and probably ALL of us on
*this* list) take it a bit further and apply the philosophy to the rest of
our lives. That's what makes *this* list so special---we're a "tribe" of
unschoolers.

~Kelly









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/04 11:18:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
scubamama@... writes:

> I believe you CAN teach old dogs new tricks.
>
>

Or maybe an old dog can learn a new trick if he wants or needs to.
Pam G
;-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/04 11:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> All unschoolers are legally homeschoolers, but NO homeSCHOOLers are
> unschoolers. You can't do both----school-at-home and Unschool.
>
>

I think that is where many school-at-homers miss the boat. They think they
understand what unschooling is and just choose to not follow that path but in
reality they have no clue what it is. Some will ask questions and want to talk
about unschooling but will then turn around and say "my child could never
unschool, she is just not motivated to learn math". That is when I realize that
some people will just never get it. They will never be able to make that mind
shift.

Will never see that it is not about getting the child to learn what I think
is important, it is about letting the child decide for himself what is
important. It is about throwing out the book "what every xyz grader needs to know"
and realizing that every 9 year old is different. Every person has a different
path that they are on and only they can decide where that path will lead.

Anyway I am rambling, can you tell I have been thinking about this a lot
lately. LOL
Pam G


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/2004 12:16:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Genant2@... writes:

Some will ask questions and want to talk
about unschooling but will then turn around and say "my child could never
unschool, she is just not motivated to learn math". <<<

Or worse: "She is just not motivated to learn *anything*!"

I can't count the number of times I've hear THAT!

~Kelly




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

Yes, I stand corrected. Learning is an active process. One can not
teach unschooling anymore than one can teach life. One can model
living life and model living unschooling. Everyone has their own
definition of life and unschooling. Perhaps I am wrong and there is
only one absolute way to unschool. Then we would need a teacher. lol
But I don't think this contradiction is true.

One can guide, facilitate, nurture and perhaps become a trusted
advisor, but one can not assume that their way to teach life or
unschooling is the only way that unschooling can or should be
modeled. Limiting other's paths of unschooling obstructs people from
choosing what one wants or needs to learn about unschooling. Just as
limiting access to TV interferes with one learning personal
discretion, limiting another's opinion of unschooling limits learning
how to live unschooling. The locus of control continues to reside
with the teacher rather than with the student, no differently than at
school. Unless one is going to the school of unschooling. lol

One does not have to choose to facilitate in an optimal way. But
isn't it the student who must decide what is optimal for himself,
rather than the teacher? Isn't that the point of unschooling? But one
can choose not to facilitate also. But then what a loss for
both "teacher" and "student". Perhaps purging ourselves of these
constructs of teacher and student is truly the key to unschooling and
lifelong learning.


Pat

--- In [email protected], Genant2@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 8/14/04 11:18:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> scubamama@e... writes:
>
> > I believe you CAN teach old dogs new tricks.
> >
> >
>
> Or maybe an old dog can learn a new trick if he wants or needs to.
> Pam G
> ;-)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/2004 1:25:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I think that is where many school-at-homers miss the boat. They think they
understand what unschooling is and just choose to not follow that path but in
reality they have no clue what it is. Some will ask questions and want to
talk
about unschooling but will then turn around and say "my child could never
unschool, she is just not motivated to learn math". That is when I realize
that
some people will just never get it. They will never be able to make that
mind
shift.

Will never see that it is not about getting the child to learn what I think
is important, it is about letting the child decide for himself what is
important. It is about throwing out the book "what every xyz grader needs to
know"
and realizing that every 9 year old is different. Every person has a
different
path that they are on and only they can decide where that path will lead.

Anyway I am rambling, can you tell I have been thinking about this a lot
lately. LOL
Pam G
***************************
Interesting twist on this.
My best friends have been involved in a Sudbury Valley School in CT. For the
last year they've been struggling, but something happened this year, and they
will be opening with a bunch of kids.

The neat thing they are finding is that this year the people visiting (and
many signing up) seem to GET IT more. In their information nights, when people
question, other visitors are popping up and talking about Trusting kids, etc.

It's cool.
Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/04 9:25:34 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< All creationists (bible as text) are homeschoolers, but not all
homeschoolers are creationists. >>

There are creationists who aren't homeschoolers.

I know what you meant. I'm picking on what you said.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/2004 2:52:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

There are creationists who aren't homeschoolers.

I know what you meant. I'm picking on what you said.<<<<

And I knew that you'd do that! <g>

~K







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/04 10:32:22 AM, scubamama@... writes:

<< Just as

limiting access to TV interferes with one learning personal

discretion, limiting another's opinion of unschooling limits learning

how to live unschooling. >>

I think I see the point you're trying to make but I don't think your examples
are legitimate.

Not having TV at all would be not like having books at all.

Having it doesn't mean reading ALL of it, or watching ALL of it.

It's access to a form of information.

Anyone wanting to learn more about unschooling has the entire world to learn
from.
Nobody is limited to the internet, or just to books, or just to magazine
articles, or just a support group or just conferences.


-=-One can guide, facilitate, nurture and perhaps become a trusted

advisor, but one can not assume that their way to teach life or

unschooling is the only way that unschooling can or should be

modeled. -=-

If you have personal preferences and beliefs and you have a support group
that meets in your house, you can enforce your own beliefs to some extent, as the
owner of the home, and the organizer of the group. Nobody would have to go
to your house or your group to become an unschooler, though.

-=-The locus of control continues to reside

with the teacher rather than with the student, no differently than at

school. Unless one is going to the school of unschooling.-=-

Y'think?
Where is this school?
Do people have to go and get a paper at the end of many years before they can
unschool?
Is anyone forced to go?

"The locus of control"??
Who is controlling whether anyone unschools?
Who is controlling where or how they do it?

In school, control is real. Where you sit, when you arrive, when you can
leave, the format of your assignments, dates of tests, all that is control.

What does "no differently than school" have to do with learning about
unschooling?

-=-One does not have to choose to facilitate in an optimal way. But

isn't it the student who must decide what is optimal for himself,

rather than the teacher? -=-

-=-One does not have to choose to facilitate in an optimal way.-=-

Hmmmm....
"Facilitate" means to make something easier for someone.
Would someone choose to do something in a way that seemed to have no
advantages?

Will one set of advantages serve for all?
Probably not.

Is anyone bound or required to learn unschooling from any certain source?
Not that I've ever heard.

Is anyone forced to share or provide information about unschooling?

-=-Phaps purging ourselves of these

constructs of teacher and student is truly the ke
Zy to unschooling and

lifelong learning.-=-

If I want to learn macrame, I'll get a book and probably find someone who can
do it so I can watch and ask questions. If I first purge myself of the idea
that there are people who know more about macrame than I do, it will be harder
for me to move on to learning on my own.

First I need to see some examples and get some advice. Then I might move on
to creating some things nobody's ever thought of.

Some people might be able to look at some strings tied around a glass float
or a bottle and know how to make fishing nets and to cover all the railings on
their deck. I'd need some help to get started, personally.

I don't think there are as many ways of tying knots as there are knot-tyers.
Some knots work really well for particular purposes, and have been passed
down for thousands of years. If it makes the difference between my boat or my
horse still being there when I get back, I'm willing to let someone show me a
really good way to tie that rope.

-=-One can not

teach unschooling anymore than one can teach life. One can model

living life and model living unschooling. Everyone has their own

definition of life and unschooling. Perhaps I am wrong and there is

only one absolute way to unschool. -=-

Just because there's no one way to do it doesn't mean there are an infinite
number or ways.
Just because there's more than one right way doesn't mean there aren't some
wrong ways.
Just because there are hundreds of breeds of dogs doesn't mean every animal
is a dog.

There are some relaxed homeschoolers and eclectic homeschoolers who aren't
using a curriculum, but they sure as hell aren't unschooling.

Sandra

Barbara Chase

This thread reminded me of this, from "Lifetide" by Lyall Watson. I
remember when I read it that I thought he was describing what unschooling
is really all about... being willing to do things differently so that we
might grow and learn from everything that life has to offer!


"Our entire educational effort seems to be dedicated to making others over
in our image, turning out carbon-copy people who faithfully reproduce all
our mistakes. "Better," we seem to be saying, "a poor imitation of
ourselves, than something different, something threatening." An eminent
child psychologist sums up Nadia's case by concluding that if the loss of
her gist is "this price that must be paid for language - even just enough
language o bring her into some kind of community of discourse with her
small protected world - we must, I think, be prepared to pay that price on
Nadia's behalf."

Must we? I am far from convinced. I value language very highly, but not
above all else. I am greatly concerned about the way we treat the special
ones, the strange ones who seem to be able to respond in some way to the
underlying form of things, instead of getting stuck as we do on surface
details. They are closer to the roots of being, more involved than the
rest of us, more touched by continuity. They respond to direct sensation,
they dance not to our monotonous tune, but to the light, drawing
inspiration from the earth itself. Instinct tells me that if we are to
make any real sense of the universe, we need the ones who see and do things
differently - the child prodigies who begin composing music almost before
they can walk; the "idiot savants" who cannot read or write, but can work
out square roots to the fifth decimal place in seconds; the metal benders
and the visionaries. They rise, like repressed archetypes, directly from
the unconscious, reminding us of its potential. I believe they could all
teach us something, if we let them. But we so seldom do."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

Thank you for sharing this. I found the words and the source (our
conscious) to be a message of inspiration to embrace our potential
through changing our assumptions (consciousness). 'There is no one so
blind as he who will not see.'

Pat--- In [email protected], Barbara Chase <barb@n...>
wrote:
> This thread reminded me of this, from "Lifetide" by Lyall Watson. I
> remember when I read it that I thought he was describing what
unschooling
> is really all about... being willing to do things differently so
that we
> might grow and learn from everything that life has to offer!
>
>
> "Our entire educational effort seems to be dedicated to making
others over
> in our image, turning out carbon-copy people who faithfully
reproduce all
> our mistakes. "Better," we seem to be saying, "a poor imitation of
> ourselves, than something different, something threatening." An
eminent
> child psychologist sums up Nadia's case by concluding that if the
loss of
> her gist is "this price that must be paid for language - even just
enough
> language o bring her into some kind of community of discourse with
her
> small protected world - we must, I think, be prepared to pay that
price on
> Nadia's behalf."
>
> Must we? I am far from convinced. I value language very highly,
but not
> above all else. I am greatly concerned about the way we treat the
special
> ones, the strange ones who seem to be able to respond in some way
to the
> underlying form of things, instead of getting stuck as we do on
surface
> details. They are closer to the roots of being, more involved than
the
> rest of us, more touched by continuity. They respond to direct
sensation,
> they dance not to our monotonous tune, but to the light, drawing
> inspiration from the earth itself. Instinct tells me that if we
are to
> make any real sense of the universe, we need the ones who see and
do things
> differently - the child prodigies who begin composing music almost
before
> they can walk; the "idiot savants" who cannot read or write, but
can work
> out square roots to the fifth decimal place in seconds; the metal
benders
> and the visionaries. They rise, like repressed archetypes,
directly from
> the unconscious, reminding us of its potential. I believe they
could all
> teach us something, if we let them. But we so seldom do."
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

A friend recommended a book to me called _The Alphabet and the Goddess_,
about how written language may have had a strong influence on how people
think. (I haven't read it yet, but I'm planning to pick up a copy.)

I had some thoughts this week about how books and school change us over
from learning from experience, to learning from someone else's
experience put down on paper. (Before that I suppose common knowledge
was passed in songs and poems as well as being demonstrated.) When most
experience came from learning, it makes sense that elders would be
considered the wisest people in the tribe, as they would likely have had
the most experiences to learn from.

Underneath this all, I think I'm chewing on the idea that adults often
can't pass their own experiences to their teenagers, meaningfully, via
lectures. (About safe driving, or not taking drugs, using birth
control.) This is a truism that I've come across anecdotally and in
novels. It makes me wonder whether "learning" from hearing someone
else's story is always a shallow kind of learning, or whether there is a
stage in life where learning from hearing other people yap about
something is especially ineffective.

Oh, when we urge new people to meet real unschoolers and come to
unschooling conferences, we are promoting getting closer to experiencing
unschooling and getting away from lecturing people about it. Also,
saying "just do it" is a nudge in the direction on experiential learning.

Betsy

**"Our entire educational effort seems to be dedicated to making others over
in our image, turning out carbon-copy people who faithfully reproduce all
our mistakes. "Better," we seem to be saying, "a poor imitation of
ourselves, than something different, something threatening." An eminent
child psychologist sums up Nadia's case by concluding that if the loss of
her gist is "this price that must be paid for language - even just enough
language o bring her into some kind of community of discourse with her
small protected world - we must, I think, be prepared to pay that price on
Nadia's behalf."

Must we? I am far from convinced. I value language very highly, but not
above all else. I am greatly concerned about the way we treat the special
ones, the strange ones who seem to be able to respond in some way to the
underlying form of things, instead of getting stuck as we do on surface
details. **

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/15/04 8:44:48 AM, scubamama@... writes:

<< Thank you for sharing this. I found the words and the source (our

conscious) to be a message of inspiration to embrace our potential

through changing our assumptions (consciousness). >>

Concience?
Did you mean conscience the first time?
Conscious minds?
Unconcious?
Collective unconscious?

<< Thank you for sharing this. I found the words and the source (our

conscious) to be a message of inspiration to embrace our potential

through changing our assumptions (consciousness). >>

That doesn't make sense to me, and it's not about unschooling.

How about telling us about your family and your unschooling?

Sandra
listowner
trapdoor operator

Kay Alina

I am new to this list but is it actually inappropriate to share a thank you
for someone else's post?

Kay
*******************************************
>
> In a message dated 8/15/04 8:44:48 AM, scubamama@... writes:
>
> << Thank you for sharing this. I found the words and the source (our
>
> conscious) to be a message of inspiration to embrace our potential
>
> through changing our assumptions (consciousness). >>
>
> Concience?
> Did you mean conscience the first time?
> Conscious minds?
> Unconcious?
> Collective unconscious?
>
> << Thank you for sharing this. I found the words and the source (our
>
> conscious) to be a message of inspiration to embrace our potential
>
> through changing our assumptions (consciousness). >>
>
> That doesn't make sense to me, and it's not about unschooling.
>
> How about telling us about your family and your unschooling?
>
> Sandra
> listowner
> trapdoor operator
>
>