zenmomma *

>>I'd love to hear more about the cool stuff people buy their kids and how
>>the kids use them.<<

Games: We have at least 50 games around the house. Card games, mancala,
chess/checkers/Chinese checkers, Monopoly, Life, Clue, Trouble, Sorry,
Cranium Cadoo, Pictionary....I could go on, but you get the picture. We LOVE
games. They come out almost every day.

Art supplies: paints, watercolors, clay, a pottery wheel, Klutz
drawing/painting guides, Klutz craft books, crayons, pencils, beads of every
shape and type, stamps, scrapbook supplies, fabric, sewing stuff, American
girl crafts, blowpens, sketch books for each of the kids, popsicle sticks,
yarn, pipe cleaners, macrame kits, lanyard kits.....I have one very crafty
kid. She uses this stuff the most. Sometimes she dabbles. Sometimes she
mixes seemingly incongruous stuff together. Sometimes she makes "projects"
on some topic of her choice. Her brother moves in and out of this stuff from
time to time. I just recently got him How to Draw Nintendo, Pokemon and
Dragonball Z books.

Building/exploring stuff: legos, Lego Mindstorms, robot kits, model kits
(Gundam Wing, Dragonball Z, Zoids), K'nex, model rockets, Klutz kits (they
have a cool solar-powered car), real tools, access to lumber, old appliances
to take apart, old computers to tinker with...Conor likes to put together
and take apart. I try to keep stuff around for him.

Misc: a globe and world map in the kitchen dining area, our computer is in
the same place, journals, diaries, stationary, lots of computer games, a
Nintendo and games, books, comics, magazines (Ranger Rick, Your Big
Backyard, American Girl, Wired, Popular Science, Star Wars Insider),
cookbooks, CD's, our menagerie (dog, guinea pig, rabbit & hamster), bikes,
trampoline, scooters, rollerblades, library cards, memberships to zoos,
museums and parks, tape measures, scales, magnifying glasses, bug boxes,
room to get messy...I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff.

Toys: you name it. ;-)

Geez this got long. Hope it's not overkill.

~Mary






_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

zenmomma *

Okay, I know I rambled in my last post, but there were a few things I
thought of that my kids have really enjoyed at various times. So, in no
particular order they also like the invisible man model, rock tumbler,
totally gross chemistry kit, magic sets, crystal growing kits, prisms, wires
and circuitry stuff, and coin collecting books.

I was also thinking that, of course, it's more than just having stuff around
for the kids and exploring with them. We also have our own stuff and stuff
going on that they are free to explore with us. Stuff like tie-dying, candle
making, writing, deck building, gardening, sewing, costuming, embroidery,
landscaping, and I suppose e-mailing. ;-) Our home is filled with art that
we love, by famous, not so famous, tribal and local artists. We also travel
as much as we can afford. We share as much or as little as we each want.

Okay I'm really done now. It was actually a good exercise for me to see how
much we have going on around here. Different from other posters, but totally
ours. Is that authentic?

~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/02 10:25:36 AM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< Okay I'm really done now. It was actually a good exercise for me to see
how
much we have going on around here. Different from other posters, but totally
ours. Is that authentic? >>

It depends whether you told us to educate us, or told us because you just
wanted to, and whether you thought we should learn what you do on our own at
our own pace or whether you were willing to tell people, and if so, did
someone directly ask or did you make an assumption, and you anticipated their
potential need?

Or did you just kind of intuitively mix all that together and make your own
independent decision?

If someone here rejects "totally gross chemistry" because of your
recommendation (reactionary) are they thinking for themselves? If they go
buy it because your family uses it, are they thinking for themselves?

Sandra

zenmomma *

<<Is that authentic? >>

>>It depends whether you told us to educate us, or told us because you just
>>wanted to, and whether you thought we should learn what you do on our own
>>at our own pace or whether you were willing to tell people, and if so, did
>>someone directly ask or did you make an assumption, and you anticipated
>>their potential need?>>

Actually, someone did ask. I figured it was one I'd have fun answering. Way
too much fun, apparently. I just kept rambling on beyond all reasonable
expectations. <g> It started as just an answer, but then I got on a roll
there and ended up just having fun thinking about it all.

>>Or did you just kind of intuitively mix all that together and make your
>>own independent decision?>>

K. I'll go with that.

>>If someone here rejects "totally gross chemistry" because of your
recommendation (reactionary) are they thinking for themselves?>>

Why not? Perhaps they've tried my recommendations before and found that our
tastes/styles/interests really do not agree. Therefore they've learned not
to take my suggestions. Trial and error? Considered opinion? Judgment call?

>>If they go buy it because your family uses it, are they thinking for
>>themselves?>>

I think so. If out of that ridiculously long list they chose that one thing
to get, there was a lot of thinking going on. Look at how many things they
didn't choose to buy, while finding that one thing that seemed interesting.
(BTW, that Totally Gross Chemistry Kit is on clearance at Barnes & Noble.
Just a couple of bucks. You mix household items to make virtual snot and
stuff. Very educational. ;-))

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/02 12:07:11 PM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< Actually, someone did ask. I figured it was one I'd have fun answering.
Way
too much fun, apparently. I just kept rambling on beyond all reasonable
expectations. <g> It started as just an answer, but then I got on a roll
there and ended up just having fun thinking about it all. >>

I had fun reading it. I liked the rolling "we have that; we don't have that;
I WANT that!" commentary in my own head.

It interests me when people want to copy physical plant instead of concept.
I know some people are more literal than others, and I think it helps to see
the range of what various other homeschooling families do.

Those who recreate school (schoolroom, chalkboard, flag, desks, bulletin
board) have it easiest. Others are still trying to find a model. For some a
house full of games and toys isn't appealing. My husband and I already
collected games and had various toys (science and history clutter) before we
decided or happened upon having kids.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>It interests me when people want to copy physical plant instead of
>>concept. I know some people are more literal than others, and I think it
>>helps to see the range of what various other homeschooling families do.>>

That's what I was thinking in making my list so long. I wanted to show that
the list of cool stuff can go on forever. I was probably unconsciously
trying to make sure it wasn't very schooly/educational sounding stuff. I
didn't want anyone to think they had to have a science kit, for instance.
That's probably why the stuff on my 2nd list didn't occur to me initially. I
thought it sounded very "let's learn science". Then I thought, wait!, my
kids LOVE those things.

I'd love to hear what other folks have found kinda cool.

>>My husband and I already collected games and had various toys (science and
>>history clutter) before we decided or happened upon having kids.>>

We had the art and music and antiques and knick-knacks and books. But the
idea that I could have what *I* wanted in my house, made it easier to
understand that I should give my kids the same consideration. I could
probably do with a few less Barbies or action figures, though. <g> The kids
would obviously disagree.

~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Pat Cald...

Mary you have a lot of cool stuff. We have been accumulating more stuff since September when we started homeschooling. I'm having fun looking for cool stuff and giving it to my kids. They have fun with it for a while but most things do not get used so much they get worn out. I'm concerned that I am not setting a good example for my kids regarding living a frugal life. They have so much they can't possibly appreciate it or appreciate the cost of it or the time to maintain it and space to store it.

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: zenmomma *
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] cool stuff



>>I'd love to hear more about the cool stuff people buy their kids and how
>>the kids use them.<<

Games: We have at least 50 games around the house. Card games, mancala,
chess/checkers/Chinese checkers, Monopoly, Life, Clue, Trouble, Sorry,
Cranium Cadoo, Pictionary....I could go on, but you get the picture. We LOVE
games. They come out almost every day.

Art supplies: paints, watercolors, clay, a pottery wheel, Klutz
drawing/painting guides, Klutz craft books, crayons, pencils, beads of every
shape and type, stamps, scrapbook supplies, fabric, sewing stuff, American
girl crafts, blowpens, sketch books for each of the kids, popsicle sticks,
yarn, pipe cleaners, macrame kits, lanyard kits.....I have one very crafty
kid. She uses this stuff the most. Sometimes she dabbles. Sometimes she
mixes seemingly incongruous stuff together. Sometimes she makes "projects"
on some topic of her choice. Her brother moves in and out of this stuff from
time to time. I just recently got him How to Draw Nintendo, Pokemon and
Dragonball Z books.

Building/exploring stuff: legos, Lego Mindstorms, robot kits, model kits
(Gundam Wing, Dragonball Z, Zoids), K'nex, model rockets, Klutz kits (they
have a cool solar-powered car), real tools, access to lumber, old appliances
to take apart, old computers to tinker with...Conor likes to put together
and take apart. I try to keep stuff around for him.

Misc: a globe and world map in the kitchen dining area, our computer is in
the same place, journals, diaries, stationary, lots of computer games, a
Nintendo and games, books, comics, magazines (Ranger Rick, Your Big
Backyard, American Girl, Wired, Popular Science, Star Wars Insider),
cookbooks, CD's, our menagerie (dog, guinea pig, rabbit & hamster), bikes,
trampoline, scooters, rollerblades, library cards, memberships to zoos,
museums and parks, tape measures, scales, magnifying glasses, bug boxes,
room to get messy...I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff.

Toys: you name it. ;-)

Geez this got long. Hope it's not overkill.

~Mary






_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>I'm having fun looking for cool stuff and giving it to my kids. They have
>>fun with it for a while but most things do not get used so much they get
>>worn out.>>

My kids don't use each of those things everyday or even every week. They
dabble with a lot of it and go back to their old favorites more often. But,
how will they know which things or activities pique their interest if they
don't have exposure to lots of different experiences? I find renewed
interest in previously ingnored stuff when I strew it about from time to
time too.

>>I'm concerned that I am not setting a good example for my kids regarding
living a frugal life. They have so much they can't possibly appreciate it
or appreciate the cost of it or the time to maintain it and space to store
it.>>

If they were in school, would you begrudge them a classroom full of supplies
and cool stuff? Would it bother you that they didn't consider what the lab
equipment cost or the fundraising needed to build that new gym or where the
teacher was going to store the classroom games? You don't have to have all
or any of the stuff on my list. You can get what *does* interest your kids
(and you!).

I find lots of stuff on clearance, at flea markets, homeschool swaps and
garage sales. When the kids are done with something, we either give it away,
swap it, or sell it at our own garage sale. (Another experience in and of
itself!)

I know my kids appreciate what they have. They appreciate the stuff, but
more than that they appreciate the richness of their lives in terms of love
and involvement. They know that not all kids live this way.

We spend many hours in volunteer activities and raise money for causes we
believe in. Much of it is completely initiated by my kids. There's lots of
examples to set in addition to frugality.

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Pat Cald...

I'm not much of a football fan so I'm back at the computer.

From: zenmomma *
>how will they know which things or activities pique their interest if >they don't have exposure to lots of different experiences?

That has been my justification for buying all the stuff I've been buying. Today I was on line looking for test tubes and beakers.


>If they were in school, would you begrudge them a classroom full of >supplies
>and cool stuff? Would it bother you that they didn't consider what the >lab
>equipment cost or the fundraising needed to build that new gym or where >the
>teacher was going to store the classroom games?

No and I would probably want them to go to the school that had the best stuff.

>You don't have to have all
>or any of the stuff on my list. You can get what *does* interest your >kids
>(and you!).

I should not have made my comments as a reply to your post because it was not about your cool stuff it was about my concerns now that I'm spending so much on stuff. In a previous post I said how much I agreed with embracing the idea of making learning a priority. You have listed all the wonderful things in your home that show how much you value the same thing. Your home sounds wonderful - a place any child would love to grow up. I'm trying to work out this nagging concern I have.

>I know my kids appreciate what they have. They appreciate the stuff, but
>more than that they appreciate the richness of their lives in terms of >love
>and involvement. They know that not all kids live this way.

I know my kids appreciate the life they have. They talk about that a lot. Maybe if I talk to them about why we have been getting so much, *I* will feel better. They are so sensible. I'll talk to them and see what they have to say. Maybe they think I'm going overboard or maybe not. I'll see.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>That has been my justification for buying all the stuff I've been buying.
>>Today I was on line looking for test tubes and beakers.>>

You really don't need a justification. :o) At least not with us. Strew away.
But, do ask yourself, do the kids want test tubes and beakers right now?

>>>You don't have to have all or any of the stuff on my list. You can get
>>>what *does* interest your kids (and you!).>>>

>>I should not have made my comments as a reply to your post because it was
>>not about your cool stuff it was about my concerns now that I'm spending
>>so much on stuff.>>

I knew that, really. :o) I was trying to point out that everyone's list of
cool stuff will be different because we won't all agree on what's cool. Just
as I don't think you should feel guilty for getting stuff (if it's within
the budget), I also don't want anyone to feel like they're short changing
their kids somehow because their idea of stuff is different than mine. And
really, try those garage sales!

>>In a previous post I said how much I agreed with embracing the idea of
>>making learning a priority. You have listed all the wonderful things in
>>your home that show how much you value the same thing. Your home sounds
>>wonderful - a place any child would love to grow up. >>

LOL! Well, it's got stuff, that's for sure. :-D And don't forget, I've been
at this awhile. And the kids have birthdays and Christmas. And they get into
making money and buying stuff for themselves. And really, try those
clearance sales!

>>I'm trying to work out this nagging concern I have.>>

You will, give it time. Remember, you don't need to strew everything all in
one day. Look around, see what catches your family's interest. It might take
you all in a completely different direction than you're thinking right now.
And really, try those homeschool swaps!

>>I know my kids appreciate the life they have. They talk about that a lot.
>> >>

Isn't that just a wonderful discussion to have?

>>Maybe if I talk to them about why we have been getting so much, *I* will
>>feel better.>>

Maybe. Maybe you could slow down a little, too, and just start perusing the
stuff you already have. Take out things and put together seemingly
incompatable items. Sandra's one-time example was playdough and legos, I
think. Take something outside that you usually use indoors. Borrow a wildly
different CD from the library and play it while you're seeing how many
bubbles within bubbles you can blow with a straw and some liquid soap. Scour
the internet for cheap and easy crafts and science projects. (We had so much
fun with alka seltzer rockets one day.) Explore. Think. Do. Enjoy.

I'm sure you're doing lots of this already, BTW. I'm just hoping I didn't
throw you into a need for stuff because of my silly list.

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Pat Cald...

From: zenmomma *
>But, do ask yourself, do the kids want test tubes and beakers right now?

They don't *need* or *want* anything right now but I'm hoping to have things when they are ready. Like one day after watching a show about Egypt featuring an archeologyst removing debri from a tomb, they went down in our basement as if they were in a tomb and hid clay figures in cat litter. It was in a storage area of the basement that is lined on both sides with wide metal storage shelves. It gives the feel of a tunnel when you are in the center aile. It would have been perfect *if* I had had rolls of brown craft paper. They could have covered the shelves with brown paper and drawn heiroglyphs on it. It would have been soooooo cool. But I didn't have the brown paper. I got the paper a few days later and told them what they could use it for but they had moved on to something else. So I want to be there with fun stuff when they get inspired.

>>>You don't have to have all or any of the stuff on my list. You can get
>>>what *does* interest your kids (and you!).>>>

I know but I want this great place where we can do cool stuff. I want to give my kids the life in my dreams.

And I really should try those sales but I hate to go shopping. We have one car and I get it 1 or 2 days a week to grocery shop and run special errands. To me shopping is like going to a museum, I'm only good for 2 hours. That is why we got a museum membership - 2 hours or I lose interest. I love shopping on-line. Ebay is about my speed for sales. We got a huge box of K'nex for $80.00. My dd hasn't had to take about any of her models since we got it.

>>I know my kids appreciate the life they have. They talk about that a lot.
>> >>

>Isn't that just a wonderful discussion to have?

I almost started to cry the first time my 12 yo dd told me how much she loved me for homeschooling her and how she knew other kid's moms would never do that for them.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/3/02 7:22:28 PM Mountain Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:


> ) I was trying to point out that everyone's list of
>

And not everyone will FIND a rubber dragon handpuppet, or a stick&rod puppet
from Thailand, or a handmade Chinese checkers board, or a big set of the
castle blocks (lego-ish but bitter) from Spain for $5 at a thrift store (we
fantasized about getting a set when Kirby was little, but they were $50 or
something).

Just like the "moving a puddle" article (my favorite of all things I've
written), you can tell someone about having moved a puddle, but that doesn't
mean they should go and find a puddle to move. It means be aware that
something that seems small or worthless might be really wonderful and
far-reaching. So if you look at someone's list as a checklist, or if you go
looking for a specific thing, you might miss the wonderful, rare and
exclusive item or opportunity that was presenting itself to you.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>They don't *need* or *want* anything right now but I'm hoping to have
>>things when they are ready.>>

But, beware, you might wind up with tons of stuff that they'll never take
an interest in. It's really hard to predict the fabulous twists and turns we
all take on our way to discovery. It won't follow a straight line, and it
won't look like school. And part of life is about going out and finding your
own stuff.

>>Like one day after watching a show about Egypt featuring an archeologyst
>>removing debri from a tomb, they went down in our basement as if they were
>>in a tomb and hid clay figures in cat litter.<<

LOL! This sounds great! I'm just going to assume it was litter straight out
of the bag and not taken from the litter box. :-P Did you join them on their
dig?

>>It was in a storage area of the basement that is lined on both sides with
>>wide metal storage shelves. It gives the feel of a tunnel when you are in
>>the center aile. It would have been perfect *if* I had had rolls of brown
>>craft paper. They could have covered the shelves with brown paper and
>>drawn heiroglyphs on it.<<

It sounds perfect just the way it was. How imaginative and creative and fun!
You adding the idea of heiroglyphics may have interested them or it may not
have. Even if you had that stuff right at the moment. They got out of the
activity what they wanted and needed and had fun doing it. How wonderful!

>>It would have been soooooo cool. But I didn't have the brown paper.<<

Maybe because it would have felt to you like a really great unit study? You
don't need all of that for the kids to get a cool new exposure to life in
ancient Egypt. They got that. Schools add a lot of the stuff they do just to
keep the kids busy. You don't have to do that. You are free to let them flit
on to the next great discovery. They won't lose what they experienced about
ancient Egypt. They're not learning it for the test. They'll bring it back
out when the need arises for them. Probably to make a cool connection about
another new discovery.

>>I got the paper a few days later and told them what they could use it for
>>but they had moved on to something else. So I want to be there with fun
>>stuff when they get inspired.>>

I think having stuff on hand is a great idea. But more important is to be
with your children *in the moment*. In *their* moment. If they've moved on,
move along with them. They may decide heiroglyphics sound cool 6 months from
now. They won't lose anything by trying it then. And they may find 87 uses
for that paper in the meantime. It all counts.

>>I know but I want this great place where we can do cool stuff. I want to
>>give my kids the life in my dreams.<<

Ahhh, you've got to know what I'm going to say here. Your kids want the life
in *their* dreams, and it may look different from yours. Just as my earliest
readings on homeschooling advised me not to rush right out to spend a lot on
curriculum, I'm going to suggest that you not buy every cool thing you think
you might need on hand to complete your children's learning experience. Take
some time to see where they lead you.

>>And I really should try those sales but I hate to go shopping.>>

Then wait for the sales to find you. Keep your eyes open when you are in a
store for something that you think might be fun. BTW, did you know about all
the cool homeschool discounts you can get at stores like Barnes & Noble
(20%), Zainy Brainy (10%) and Media Play (15%)? And you're right, e-bay is
always fun too.

>>I almost started to cry the first time my 12 yo dd told me how much she
>>loved me for homeschooling her and how she knew other kid's moms would
>>never do that for them.>>

You're making memories. :o) Much more important than curriculum or unit
studies.

~Mary


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Pat Cald...

>But, beware, you might wind up with tons of stuff that they'll never >take
>an interest in. It's really hard to predict the fabulous twists and turns >we
>all take on our way to discovery. It won't follow a straight line, and it
>won't look like school. And part of life is about going out and finding >your
>own stuff.

Now you've gone and given me too much to think about. :-) First you said having a lot of stuff was good and now you tell me they need to go out and find their own stuff! So which is it? I hope I get to find the stuff for them because I have fun doing it.

I also find it is helpful when I find cool pictures in books and show them. It helps them get ideas of things they want to do. I've decided to point out new things they have learned as they come up to go along with the *priority* we have set for learning. It will be the same as pointing out when someone was kind. Does this seem like a reasonable thing to do? I promise I will not go overboard.


>LOL! This sounds great! I'm just going to assume it was litter straight >out
>of the bag and not taken from the litter box. :-P Did you join them on >their
>dig?

Yes it was clean litter and no I was off to swimming when they started their adventure. That is the only bad thing about not having a learning schedule. I usually miss out on some things, especially if they start anything after 10:00 p.m. I just not a night owl.

You made some good points Mary, I'll keep them in mind.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/4/02 2:26:20 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< Now you've gone and given me too much to think about. :-) First you said
having a lot of stuff was good and now you tell me they need to go out and
find their own stuff! So which is it? >>

Both, all and neither.
If you were going to a buffet (okay, ever buffet, salad bar and smorgasbord
on earth all at once), and had written to us and asked what you should eat,
we would say "See what looks good when you get there!"


<< I hope I get to find the stuff for them because I have fun doing it. >>


Then only get stuff that YOU will like yourself, for yourself, if it turns
out they have no interest.

And just because nobody shows an interest in the next year or two doesn't
mean it's not going to be the coolest thing when someone discovers it in a
box of cool stuff in 2005.

Sandra, packrat

zenmomma *

>>Now you've gone and given me too much to think about. :-) First you said
>>having a lot of stuff was good and now you tell me they need to go out and
>>find their own stuff! So which is it?>>

Both. ;-) I didn't go out and pick out all of that stuff all by myself. I
started out with some basic art supplies, maps, computer, books and toys.
The rest evolved with the kids' interests. Nor did we accumulate it all in
one week. And forget about deciding ahead of time how and when *I* was going
to have the kids use it, or what *I* expected them to learn from it. I can't
predict where their interests will take us next. I just hang on for the
ride. :-D

>>I hope I get to find the stuff for them because I have fun doing it.>>

Me too. So do my kids. But will you be dissappointed or mad if they end up
not showing an interest in what you've picked out? That is what would be
counter-productive to the results of joyous learning that you're trying to
obtain.

>>I also find it is helpful when I find cool pictures in books and show
>>them. It helps them get ideas of things they want to do.>>

Sounds cool to me. I often show my kids stuff I come across online or in
books or magazines. I do the same with my dh and friends. They do the same
for me.

>>I've decided to point out new things they have learned as they come up to
>>go along with the *priority* we have set for learning. It will be the
>>same as pointing out when someone was kind. Does this seem like a
>>reasonable thing to do?>>

I think you'll trip up their natural joy in exploring a new discovery if you
point out all they've learned each time. It might start feeling kind of
schooly, which may make them back off from going further with it. They will
still learn, even if you don't talk to them about them the learning. To me,
our time is better spent in the actual exploration rather than me making a
mental checklist of subjects or "basics" covered. (Which I'm not sure if you
were thinking of or not.)

>>Yes it was clean litter and no I was off to swimming when they started
>>their adventure. That is the only bad thing about not having a learning
>>schedule. I usually miss out on some things, especially if they start
>>anything after 10:00 p.m. I just not a night owl.>>

Me either. But when thinking about keeping learning a priority, don't
discount your role in it all. Maybe one time you'll decide on the spur of
the moment to change your swim time so that you can participate in an
exciting adventure like the one your kids just had. (It won't be the last
one, promise.) Think of the priority impact that will make. And no, I'm
really not saying you shouldn't have gone to swimming. Really! Just
something to think about. You are important in all this. More important to
them than curriculum, the basics, timetables or schedules.

*You* can be part of the joy in their joyful learning. :o)

~Mary, who thinks she's muddied the waters sufficiently now.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/4/02 5:23:04 PM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< I've decided to point out new things they have learned as they come up to
>>go along with the *priority* we have set for learning. >>

I wouldn't point it out. Practice, for yourself, NOT mentioning what they've
learned, so that you'll be closer to the point when you don't care. If you
have the burning desire to share it, tell us here, or tell your husband when
the kids aren't around or something.

<<It will be the
>>same as pointing out when someone was kind. Does this seem like a
>>reasonable thing to do?>>

No, I don't think it's the same. There's a spontaneous expression of "That
was so FUN!" or "sweet..." or something, but to say "For the past ten minutes
you've been learning something" means "and before that you were wasting time"
(or whatever).

Dividing the world into learning and not-learning is a false division and it
will do your kids more good for you the mom to forget about that than for
you to point it out.

Oh--Mary said that:
-=-I think you'll trip up their natural joy in exploring a new discovery if
you
point out all they've learned each time. -=-




Sandra

Pam Hartley

There's the added danger once you start pointing things out, of missing
some/many of the things they are learning, and if you've set up a policy or
habit of mentioning those you notice, what does that say to the child when
you DON'T notice?

It's impossible to notice everything, much of it is going to be internal, or
in small stages that are imperceptible at the time but are strung together
later.

Pam

----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] cool stuff
Date: Mon, Feb 4, 2002, 4:45 PM


Dividing the world into learning and not-learning is a false division and it
will do your kids more good for you the mom to forget about that than for
you to point it out.

Oh--Mary said that:
-=-I think you'll trip up their natural joy in exploring a new discovery if
you
point out all they've learned each time. -=-



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pat Cald...

Mary wrote:
> Me too. So do my kids. But will you be dissappointed or mad if they end up
> not showing an interest in what you've picked out? That is what would be
> counter-productive to the results of joyous learning that you're trying to
> obtain.

No, I'll be fine. It can't be any worse than finding the right curriculum.
*BEFORE* we started unschooling, I spent a lot of money buying different
text books for the same subject because most of them were so lame. We did
find a couple of good ones but now maybe they will be used just for
occassional reference - who knows. Anyway, I think of it as a process to
find the core of materials for the right enrichment atmosphere.


> I think you'll trip up their natural joy in exploring a new discovery if
you
> point out all they've learned each time. It might start feeling kind of
> schooly, which may make them back off from going further with it. They
will
> still learn, even if you don't talk to them about them the learning. To
me,
> our time is better spent in the actual exploration rather than me making a
> mental checklist of subjects or "basics" covered. (Which I'm not sure if
you
> were thinking of or not.)

I don't want to squash any natural joy. I'll have to play around with this.

And Mary, you haven't muddied the waters. I like thinking about these
little details.

Pat


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Pat Cald...

Ok, I won't mention anything about what they've learned.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/4/02 6:31:31 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< Ok, I won't mention anything about what they've learned. >>

I was thinking about times I've talked with a kid about what he or she knows,
or how it was learned. Usually it has been in response to them telling me
that another kid or someone they know said something to them like "You won't
get into college," or
"If you went to school you could read better."

Or sometimes when a kid is in some other way making one of mine feel
inferior, later I'll run a comparison on something or other, like... "He
reads novels, but you're a better skater, and you understand game rules
better." That kind of summary reminder stuff.

Tonight Kirby was talking to me about a gameboy advance game he has, Breath
of Fire. I asked him if it was something Holly could play. She's ten. When
he was ten he could read better than she can now. I'm surprised she wasn't
the earliest reader (my pro-girl, early-female development prejudice).
Anyway, all he said was it took a lot of reading. And neither of us said
anything hopeful or negative about her reading, nor did we reminisce about
his. He can read all he wants to now, and she can't read well enough to play
Breath of Fire yet. That's all. It's no different in emotional content than
if I'd said, "Can you take the trash out?" and if he'd said, "I'm barefooted,
but Marty has shoes on, and I took it last time." "Okay." Just
practicalities, no drama, no angst.

When Kirby was younger I had more dramatic angst, because I felt the pressure
of relatives. It's all gone now. I'll probably feel it some more when he's
18 and in college or not, with the spotlight on that transition.

Sandra, rambling but not rambling too far afield, I think

Pat Cald...

From: SandraDodd@...
>I was thinking about times I've talked with a kid about what he or she knows,
>or how it was learned. Usually it has been in response to them telling me
>that another kid or someone they know said something to them like "You won't
>get into college," or
>"If you went to school you could read better."

DD, who plans on getting an engineering degree and then doing something in the space field, told me my neighbor told her she'd never be an engineer. As it turns out, dd was helping the neighbor's little daughter with her kite when the neighbor made the negative comment. Comments like this can be damaging and at the very least they are never helpful. It is very sad when adults choose to behave this way. This neighbor's children have very low self-esteem. I'm hoping this is not a deliberate campaign to undermine my children. I am debating whether to say something or not.

DD sees all possibilities when looking at things. Sometimes it appears to others that she does not know what she is doing because they are looking for her to do things the *one* way they know how.

>When Kirby was younger I had more dramatic angst, because I felt the >pressure
>of relatives. It's all gone now. I'll probably feel it some more when >he's
>18 and in college or not, with the spotlight on that transition.

My kids were totally out of control last night. Wild and carrying on in a disruptive way. Dh and I got upset and expressed concern. We told them that we were doing everything we could to give them more quality of life and freedom but feel our quality of life and freedom is being diminished by this behavior. I told them normally we would be doling out the punishments but we won't be doing that anymore because we trust that we can work this whole thing out. We trust that they can be more responsible and considerate. They both agreed that they could and would. I was satisfied with how everything went, I guess, except I definitely coerced them into *wanting* to make some changes. ???????????????

Sandra, you were talking about angst you expressed when Kirby was younger. Could this have been why Kirby is a better reader? Are there any negative side affects from displaying your angst?

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

>
> And just because nobody shows an interest in the next year or two
doesn't
> mean it's not going to be the coolest thing when someone discovers
it in a
> box of cool stuff in 2005.
>
> Sandra, packrat

A friend of mine hooked me up with one of those free stuff catelogues
a few years ago. At the time, the post office was sending out Life
in the 19**'s(each decade) which was a huge folder filled with info
about that decade with lots of cool pictures and information, from
politics to pop music. My dd was 8 and liked the pictures for about
15 minutes, then moved on. We got a decade in the mail every month
or so. It came with a box to store it all in. Anyway. I walked
into her room yesterday and there was the box, pulled out from a
closet, and now she is reading all the stuff and thinking it's all
pretty cool.
Joanna

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/4/02 9:24:42 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:

<< << Ok, I won't mention anything about what they've learned. >>

I was thinking about times I've talked with a kid about what he or she knows,
or how it was learned. >>

Quinn, who has never done nuthin' close to traditional academics, told me he
was terrible at math. I think that's partly because he sees his sister
working through the Key Curriculum books. I had to tell him that he was fine
at math, that he knew lots of things and that those kind of concepts come
easy to him. He had no idea.

Paula

Sharon Rudd

> DD, who plans on getting an engineering degree and
> then doing something in the space field, told me my
> neighbor told her she'd never be an engineer. As it
> turns out, dd was helping the neighbor's little
> daughter with her kite when the neighbor made the
> negative comment. Comments like this can be
> damaging and at the very least they are never
> helpful. It is very sad when adults choose to
> behave this way. This neighbor's children have very
> low self-esteem. I'm hoping this is not a
> deliberate campaign to undermine my children. I am
> debating whether to say something or not.
.............
I would say something. Not only is it wrong and rude.
It was hurtful. Takes the breath away as surely as a
punch in the stomach.

My father (I didn't grow up with him) and his wife
are/were both engineers with NASA. They are both
supportive of all of the children that they encounter
(well, except for their won, but they learned from
that). They send wonderful things to Roy which he
enjoys. Such as a circuit board when he was 5 (he
called it an "electricity map"...and he was correct).
Solar powered model car to put together.....Roy loves
this stuff. And he composes and writes his own
thankyou notes, which are almost illegible. Which
they do appreciate as all the schooled grands and
others DON'T write any notes.

They feel that perhaps Roy is the one who may be the
engineer of his generation. Dunno, don't really care.
But he does have fun thinking about patterns and flow
and stress, and playing with the goodies they send.
(including Inspector Gadget video)

The point is that REAL engineers don't say things like
your !*&$^&^!!! neighbor did. Real engineers
encourage in subtle ways.

My grandfather was a civil engineer (Ana polis), my
father an electrical engineer (GA. Tech), my uncle a
geological engineer (GA. Tech), my step father (13yrs)
civil engineer (GA. Tech)....... the only time I was
allowed to say "Hell" was the GA. Tech school song. I
don't recall any of them EVER saying to anyone that
they would never get to be an engineer, too.

G'Ma Louise, my father's wife, in her 70s now, is
still working as an engineer That is what FUN is to
her, now. They live in Huntsville. (G'Pa Bill has
shifted more to archaeological spelunking.) G'Ma
Louise has promised me that if Roy needs help with
math or trig or any of it beyond what I remember
(which ain't much) she will help via the net or phone,
whatever works. That is YEARS down the road, if at
all. But they don't push it. However they don't
discourage either!

Gracious! the world is hard enough without making it
harder on purpose!

I can't abide people who say things like that to
children!

Can you move?
Sharon of the Swamp



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/5/02 5:49:39 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< I was satisfied with how everything went, I guess, except I definitely
coerced them into *wanting* to make some changes. ??????????????? >>

I coerce people into wanting to make changes all the time. That's
inspiration. <g>

I remember a discussion with some of the total non-coercion proponents once,
about persuasion. If persuasions a sin there, maybe it's just because
they're not good at persuasion. I don't know. I think it's a great tool in
life in general, and if nobody's feeling tricked or duped or embarrassed when
it's over, then it was free will exercise.

With kids, you were just stating some facts. If I say "The mess in the den
is really getting to me. Could you guys at least get your own stuff out?
And I need help with laundry folding." I'm wanting them to do something.
Lots of things. I'm just not saying "Anything still in here in an hour is
trash" or "Marty YOU clean it all up, because you've been the least helpful
lately."


<<Sandra, you were talking about angst you expressed when Kirby was younger.
Could this have been why Kirby is a better reader? Are there any negative
side affects from displaying your angst?>>

I didn't display it much, I just let it make my stomach acid dance.

There were two and a half reading lessons when Kirby was seven (six or
seven). Horrible. I would love to take those back. I was afraid of his
grandma. Everybody is. If he had read at two on national TV she wouldn't
have been happy. I just hadn't figured that out, quite, in those days.

I'm still aware of some thing, like my kids don't have good handwriting, but
having taught jr. high I remember kids who'd been in school for nine or ten
years who didn't have either. The difference is my kids haven't been made
to rewrite boring homework, or gotten bad grades in penmanship, or points
taken off a grade because they wrote something illegibly, or shamed or
laughed at in front of 30 people repeatedly for years. They're happy guys
whose writing's bad, instead of shamed to the core guys whose writing's bad.
Kirby's is starting to show some improvement. He wants to take driver's
ed, and he's learning to cook. He wrote down a recipe the other day. Nobody
made him.

Sandra

zenmomma *

>>Quinn, who has never done nuthin' close to traditional academics, told me
>>he was terrible at math. I think that's partly because he sees his sister
>>working through the Key Curriculum books. I had to tell him that he was
>>fine at math, that he knew lots of things and that those kind of concepts
>>come easy to him. He had no idea.>>

One time at dinner, Casey made a comment about not liking math because she
was no good at it. The rest of us started cracking up. Like Quinn, she has
done nothing formal in math, but can flip numbers and concepts around like a
pro. On cue, each of us started pointing out where she was using "math"
without realizing it. It was all said in a playful, sweet way. She laughed
with us and got it pretty quick.

~Mary

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Tia Leschke

At 06:34 AM 05/02/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> > DD, who plans on getting an engineering degree and
> > then doing something in the space field, told me my
> > neighbor told her she'd never be an engineer. As it
> > turns out, dd was helping the neighbor's little
> > daughter with her kite when the neighbor made the
> > negative comment. Comments like this can be
> > damaging and at the very least they are never
> > helpful. It is very sad when adults choose to
> > behave this way. This neighbor's children have very
> > low self-esteem. I'm hoping this is not a
> > deliberate campaign to undermine my children. I am
> > debating whether to say something or not.

Bonnie's daughter was planning to become a vet when she was told by her
grandmother that she wouldn't even be able to go to university because she
was homeschooled. All the reassurance by her dad and others did no
good. She seems to have pretty much given up the idea of an academic
career of any kind.....sad. If Bonnie had still been alive, you can bet
she would have blasted her mother in Tessa's presence for that remark, but
Dennis was trying to keep the peace with her family.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island