Dawn Falbe

Hi All:

I'm interested in hearing from those of you who have been unschooling for
sometime... How did you get comfortable with not racing around and
"providing" entertainment for your children. It's 6:30am here and Max (2.5
yrs old) took out Zak chess game and started to stand the pieces up. I have
to stop myself from showing him how to play chess... He's only interested in
standing them up and already I'm thinking of chess tournaments he can
enter.... I've been thinking about this and I think I do this with Zak as
well... I don't know if it's my own school conditioning that says "if you
are not constantly offering them all sorts of wonderful opportunities, they
are going to get bored and want to go to school".. I know this is about me
and not about them....I watched Zak play yesterday rather than me trying to
keep offering him things and he was fine... He painted, colored, make lego
racer models, went outside on his bike with DH and his brother, watched a
couple of There goes the (fill in the blank) videos, played on his computer
learning Spanish and Japanese.... I'm writing this thinking to myself "What
else do you want him to do Dawn?"..... OK OK I know it's me... so those of
you with years of experience and who've already gone through this "stage"
would you please give me your experience, strength and hope that I will
eventually become "normal" and let things be the way they are.

Dawn (learning how to unschool)


********************
Dawn Falbe
Astrologer Coach
(520) 312-5300
********************
www.astrologerdawn.com
dawn@...
Enlightening you on how to discover and live your Soul Purpose

"The people who get on in this world are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." - George
Bernard Shaw

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school" -
George Bernard Shaw



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 8:10:32 AM, dawn@... writes:

<< I watched Zak play yesterday rather than me trying to
keep offering him things and he was fine. >>

Do this more. Then one day instead of watching, you'll go read a book <gg>.

Paula

Pam Hartley

It helps to have pursuits of your own, for when they really don't need you
or, in fact, WANT you, involved. This list, for example. <g>

Understanding your own motives helps. Being able to read your child's
interest in your suggestions helps (this is not a problem for me. Brit
becomes one with the vegetables if you bore her in any slight way, and Mikey
(4) says in her quelling English nanny voice, "No, thank you". Very
repressing. <g>

Pam

----------
From: "Dawn Falbe" <dawn@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Need your Experience
Date: Fri, Feb 1, 2002, 6:13 AM


I'm writing this thinking to myself "What
else do you want him to do Dawn?"..... OK OK I know it's me... so those of
you with years of experience and who've already gone through this "stage"
would you please give me your experience, strength and hope that I will
eventually become "normal" and let things be the way they are.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

><< I watched Zak play yesterday rather than me trying to
>keep offering him things and he was fine. >>>
>Do this more. Then one day instead of watching, you'll go read a book <gg>.
>>Paula

Or read your email!!
Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!

><< I watched Zak play yesterday rather than me trying to
>keep offering him things and he was fine. >>
>
>Do this more. Then one day instead of watching, you'll go read a book <gg>.
>
>Paula

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 7:10:56 AM, dawn@... writes:

<< How did you get comfortable with not racing around and
"providing" entertainment for your children. >>

Gradually!

I still provide entertainment for my children (and they provide things for
the rest of the family too, because (shhh...) they think that's just how
people in families are! They don't associate it with unschooling directly.

<< He's only interested in
standing them up and already I'm thinking of chess tournaments>>

Find a diagram of the board set up and leave it available. He can copy that
pattern or not, but he'll realize there is a pattern.

And it's cool when the chess pieces on the chart don't look exactly like his
own.

Maybe check out a book on chess pieces or history of game boards. Not on
chess strategy at all, but on gaming history so he can see the history of the
pieces and the different forms. Or if you're near a games shop, wander by
and look at different chess sets on display. it will be like a teeny chess
museum.

It doesn't have to be done at any one moment, just incorporate his interest
in chess pieces into your daily considerations until the time when he knows
more about it than you do (unless you're a whiz, and then sorry for the
assumption that you weren't).

One way for moms who love to checklist their days to provide without managing
is to go afield of verbal presentation. Go through a list of the senses.
And if each day you try to provide something interesting to taste, touch,
hear, see and smell, his day will be more full than flat. Too many families
stop at things to hear and see. (Because school stops there, I guess.)

But you don't have to do this until he's 17. You can do it until you're
confident that he's filled with experiences to cross-reference at his own
leisure (in dreams, in fantasies, in future incidents which remind him of
those, etc.) and you feel satisfied that you're not a slacker.

If just "the five sense" seems a lame checklist and you want four dimensional
instead of three, maybe each day work into conversation something about the
past and something about the future. (I can hardly imagine a day without
those coming up naturally in my own family, but in case you're not really
talkative or something, it's something for the checklist.) If it comes up
naturally in conversation you could say "They didnt' even have chainsaws
until... [whenever little gasoline engines were common, or whatever the
seminal technological feature is] and would have had to do all this with a
hand saw, or an axe. (That's if you cut firewood with a chainsaw, not if
you're sitting around working a jigsaw puzzle of tiger cubs in the forest.)
Or you could say "How long do you think we will have these dishes? When too
many are broken, what kind should we get next?" (if you have a girl with
those sorts of interests). Various kinds of mind-casting conversations into
the past (personal past or technological past or cultural past or planetary
past) or into the future (tomorrow, next year, next century) help kids build
their internal model of the universe. I know I've used that phrase half a
dozen times talking about unschooling, but I think it's one of the coolest
ideas.

At school, there is a model of knowledge which they're hoping to insert into
each child's head. And it has things that are dumb and arbitrary. Like that
the history of England is way more important than the history of China (in
English speaking countries, there's a lot of justification for that, but
still, let me run my imperfect little thang here), and that there are some
authors EVERYBODY has to know, and others that are TOTALLY optional,
marginal, don't even brag if you've read them. And that some historical
cultures are hugely more important than others. And some science is FACT and
some is marginal "whatever," not appearing in this book.

School kids don't know the world is a million times bigger than school's
version of it.

Unschooled kids are also making a model of the universe inside them, but
they're making it their own way, and they're not valuing the school-bits over
the bits that their model has which are unique to them and their own personal
interests and experiences.

That's the main reason I think that an unschooler's checklist should look
more like the five senses and past/future than like science, history,
language, math, maybe-music-art-physical education. Because that model is
prescriptive and limiting. And the other is descriptive and unlimited.

(Maybe I just wrote the core of a column for HEM. I'm saving this one.)

Sandra

Pat Cald...

You seem like you are on a roll here Sandra, so can you think of what I might say to my 12 yo dd when she tells me her vision of how things will work in the future? The other day I was dragging a 100' hose all around the yard. My dd told me of her vision of the future when water would be condensed from the air and we would no longer need hoses. I told her I thought that would be neat - dah- I can't help her take her ideas anywhere. She tells me she is always thinking of things like this. OK Mom Sandra, what do I do to nurture this?

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Need your Experience



In a message dated 2/1/02 7:10:56 AM, dawn@... writes:

<< How did you get comfortable with not racing around and
"providing" entertainment for your children. >>

Gradually!

I still provide entertainment for my children (and they provide things for
the rest of the family too, because (shhh...) they think that's just how
people in families are! They don't associate it with unschooling directly.

<< He's only interested in
standing them up and already I'm thinking of chess tournaments>>

Find a diagram of the board set up and leave it available. He can copy that
pattern or not, but he'll realize there is a pattern.

And it's cool when the chess pieces on the chart don't look exactly like his
own.

Maybe check out a book on chess pieces or history of game boards. Not on
chess strategy at all, but on gaming history so he can see the history of the
pieces and the different forms. Or if you're near a games shop, wander by
and look at different chess sets on display. it will be like a teeny chess
museum.

It doesn't have to be done at any one moment, just incorporate his interest
in chess pieces into your daily considerations until the time when he knows
more about it than you do (unless you're a whiz, and then sorry for the
assumption that you weren't).

One way for moms who love to checklist their days to provide without managing
is to go afield of verbal presentation. Go through a list of the senses.
And if each day you try to provide something interesting to taste, touch,
hear, see and smell, his day will be more full than flat. Too many families
stop at things to hear and see. (Because school stops there, I guess.)

But you don't have to do this until he's 17. You can do it until you're
confident that he's filled with experiences to cross-reference at his own
leisure (in dreams, in fantasies, in future incidents which remind him of
those, etc.) and you feel satisfied that you're not a slacker.

If just "the five sense" seems a lame checklist and you want four dimensional
instead of three, maybe each day work into conversation something about the
past and something about the future. (I can hardly imagine a day without
those coming up naturally in my own family, but in case you're not really
talkative or something, it's something for the checklist.) If it comes up
naturally in conversation you could say "They didnt' even have chainsaws
until... [whenever little gasoline engines were common, or whatever the
seminal technological feature is] and would have had to do all this with a
hand saw, or an axe. (That's if you cut firewood with a chainsaw, not if
you're sitting around working a jigsaw puzzle of tiger cubs in the forest.)
Or you could say "How long do you think we will have these dishes? When too
many are broken, what kind should we get next?" (if you have a girl with
those sorts of interests). Various kinds of mind-casting conversations into
the past (personal past or technological past or cultural past or planetary
past) or into the future (tomorrow, next year, next century) help kids build
their internal model of the universe. I know I've used that phrase half a
dozen times talking about unschooling, but I think it's one of the coolest
ideas.

At school, there is a model of knowledge which they're hoping to insert into
each child's head. And it has things that are dumb and arbitrary. Like that
the history of England is way more important than the history of China (in
English speaking countries, there's a lot of justification for that, but
still, let me run my imperfect little thang here), and that there are some
authors EVERYBODY has to know, and others that are TOTALLY optional,
marginal, don't even brag if you've read them. And that some historical
cultures are hugely more important than others. And some science is FACT and
some is marginal "whatever," not appearing in this book.

School kids don't know the world is a million times bigger than school's
version of it.

Unschooled kids are also making a model of the universe inside them, but
they're making it their own way, and they're not valuing the school-bits over
the bits that their model has which are unique to them and their own personal
interests and experiences.

That's the main reason I think that an unschooler's checklist should look
more like the five senses and past/future than like science, history,
language, math, maybe-music-art-physical education. Because that model is
prescriptive and limiting. And the other is descriptive and unlimited.

(Maybe I just wrote the core of a column for HEM. I'm saving this one.)

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karin

I'm saving this too! Thanks for all the ideas.

Karin



>(Maybe I just wrote the core of a column for HEM. I'm saving this one.)

>Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 11:47:34 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< I told her I thought that would be neat - dah- I can't help her take her
ideas anywhere. She tells me she is always thinking of things like this. >>

Where does she need to take them?

I guess I would ask her how that would work, her condensation plan. Because
in New Mexico, there IS no moisture in the air and so it would be pretty hard
work! <g>

And in most places, I hear, moisture condenses out of the air by itself,
almost daily! <g>

I don't think using humor is belittling, but some kids like it and some can't
stand it.
So depending on her personality, maybe she just wants you to say "That sounds
like a GREAT idea," and ask her if she could condense enough that people
wouldn't need to pipe water in, too. Then people who live out in the country
might not have to drill their own wells. Or get her thinking about whether
in crowded neighborhoods one neighbor could condense so much water that the
other neighbors' condensers wouldn't work. (That's a practical question
based on local experience with ditches.)

Maybe she doesn't want any more questions or input, but just wants to mull
over her own idea.

I had an idea when I was six for striped paint--a split brush, and a can with
a divider in the middle. That was because I had never really painted with
house paint. I told my granny and papaw. He said that was an idea he had
never heard. Neither one told me why it wouldn't work. I think that was
pretty sweet, looking back. Within a year I had figured out the brush
wouldn't separate on the second dip, and the colors would get muddied. But
it was fun, for a while, having my kid-fantasy.

Her ideas don't need to be taken anywhere, just around her brain and into the
air around her.

I think the best thing you can do is not say "That won't work," but ask her
questions that help her clarify what she's thinking, or talk about similar
things. Cloud seeding is something you could look up and introduce to her.
But just mention it, define it, show a photo or something if you can, and let
it go. Don't make "a unit study," just add one piece or two to her puzzle.

That's my musing on it. Others might have more scientific ideas.

Sandra

Pat Cald...

Thanks Sandra, I guess I need to figure out if she fancies herself an inventor or just likes to think of fantasy stuff. She has not shown much of an interest in how things actually work or what makes something happen. She didn't even talk about where the water would come from. Maybe I should have asked her how she thought that might work but I didn't want to seem at all negative. I think she just likes to dream.

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Need your Experience



In a message dated 2/1/02 11:47:34 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< I told her I thought that would be neat - dah- I can't help her take her
ideas anywhere. She tells me she is always thinking of things like this. >>

Where does she need to take them?

I guess I would ask her how that would work, her condensation plan. Because
in New Mexico, there IS no moisture in the air and so it would be pretty hard
work! <g>

And in most places, I hear, moisture condenses out of the air by itself,
almost daily! <g>

I don't think using humor is belittling, but some kids like it and some can't
stand it.
So depending on her personality, maybe she just wants you to say "That sounds
like a GREAT idea," and ask her if she could condense enough that people
wouldn't need to pipe water in, too. Then people who live out in the country
might not have to drill their own wells. Or get her thinking about whether
in crowded neighborhoods one neighbor could condense so much water that the
other neighbors' condensers wouldn't work. (That's a practical question
based on local experience with ditches.)

Maybe she doesn't want any more questions or input, but just wants to mull
over her own idea.

I had an idea when I was six for striped paint--a split brush, and a can with
a divider in the middle. That was because I had never really painted with
house paint. I told my granny and papaw. He said that was an idea he had
never heard. Neither one told me why it wouldn't work. I think that was
pretty sweet, looking back. Within a year I had figured out the brush
wouldn't separate on the second dip, and the colors would get muddied. But
it was fun, for a while, having my kid-fantasy.

Her ideas don't need to be taken anywhere, just around her brain and into the
air around her.

I think the best thing you can do is not say "That won't work," but ask her
questions that help her clarify what she's thinking, or talk about similar
things. Cloud seeding is something you could look up and introduce to her.
But just mention it, define it, show a photo or something if you can, and let
it go. Don't make "a unit study," just add one piece or two to her puzzle.

That's my musing on it. Others might have more scientific ideas.

Sandra


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 12:32:24 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< Thanks Sandra, I guess I need to figure out if she fancies herself an
inventor or just likes to think of fantasy stuff. >>

I don't think it matters at this point, just so you don't squelch it.

Sandra

Bronwen

>
> In a message dated 2/1/02 7:10:56 AM, dawn@... writes:
>
> << How did you get comfortable with not racing around and
> "providing" entertainment for your children. >>

THIS is a fabulous question- it shows you really see how "offering" when
uninvited is the antithesis of trust.

Something that might help is to say to yourself-

* would I say, suggest, offer, that to my adult friend in a similar
situation? (if not, you are "teaching"- you have switched your focus from
yourself to your children and what they "need") (although some people
annoyingly "help" their friends...watch out for that one..)


From Sandra:

> It doesn't have to be done at any one moment, just incorporate his
interest
> in chess pieces into your daily considerations until the time when he
knows
> more about it than you do (unless you're a whiz, and then sorry for the
> assumption that you weren't).

but you dont want the sharing of yourself and your ideas to be connected
with your children's "outcome"- yeah?

I mean, you are on a totally different life path than your children, who
knows why he is stacking chess peices? could be because he's examining the
contrast between black wood and white - or maybe thinking about wood in
general, or stone (or whatever the pieces are made out of), I mean GAWD- I
think I could write a millon things that could be going on in his head.
Which illustrates my point- there is no sense in guessing what they "need
next" -it is like guessing their path , and choosing one path (that he is or
should be interested in chess at all) to "provide" info for. I have to
focus on MY path, not my children's- not only do I

*waste energy- focusing on someone else's life and what they are thinking,
but I

*undermine trust- because by "providing something" that no one wanted I am
assuming that they couldnt either get what they wanted themselves or let me
know how I (or someone else) could help them.

> One way for moms who love to checklist their days to provide without
managing
> is to go afield of verbal presentation. Go through a list of the senses.
> And if each day you try to provide something interesting to taste, touch,
> hear, see and smell, his day will be more full than flat.

It is not my responsibility to make another person's day "full or flat" or
anything- my responsibility is to be the best person I can be. I want to
be fully available when someone (anyone) expresses need and I feel I can
give it- offering something when there is no expressed need is icky. I am a
model for my children - but I am not "being a good model" for the benefit of
my children as much as just because that is what we should do- be true to
ourselves

I understand you are speaking to "checklist moms" - and I think it is a
transition that we all go through, feeling we are "letting our kids down" by
not having a sand table, or a microscope- "is my environment "enriched"
enough?" But it is a FINE FINE day when you realize that you never had to
worry about the microscope, or the globe, or the chess book, or the tennis
raquet at all- when you look back and realize that all those "important path
developing tools" are collecting dust, that you wasted your energy- that you
dont have to waste energy on other people's life any more. You dont have to
worry about "their multi-dimentional world veiw"- you just dont have to
worry- TRUST has arrived

BECAUSE you realize, your children have let you know- they have let you
know the WHOLE time, JUST what they needed, WHEN they needed it- and you
didnt let them down, you didnt-

because it was so obvious obvious when they wanted you to help, provide,
inform-

and you did

Love,
Bronwen

Fetteroll

on 2/1/02 2:16 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Because in New Mexico, there IS no moisture in the air and so it would be
> pretty hard work! <g>

I've *heard* -- but can't test since the problem here is often how to keep
things from getting damp ;-) -- that even in the desert if you stretch out a
large sheet of plastic (big, not plastic wrap) above the ground, put a stone
in the middle and a can on the ground under the stone, that water will
collect and drop into the can. Maybe it's coming up from the ground? Maybe
it just sounded cool to someone.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

In a message dated 2/1/02 11:47:34 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

> I told her I thought that would be neat - dah- I can't help her take her
> ideas anywhere. She tells me she is always thinking of things like this.

Does *she* want to go further with them?

Maybe she could write them down. But maybe that would set them in stone too.

Maybe what they need to be are just what they are which is brain exercise.
Just what if's to see how they fit into the world. It's probably the way
inventors think. And science fiction writers.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Fri, 01 Feb 2002 15:35:13 -0500 Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
writes:
> I've *heard* -- but can't test since the problem here is often how to
keep
> things from getting damp ;-) -- that even in the desert if you stretch
out a
> large sheet of plastic (big, not plastic wrap) above the ground, put a
stone
> in the middle and a can on the ground under the stone, that water will
> collect and drop into the can. Maybe it's coming up from the ground?
Maybe
> it just sounded cool to someone.
>

We did a project sort of like that in school here in Arizona, when I was
9. You go out in the desert and dig a hole a few inches deeper and wider
than a coffee can, then put the can in the middle,and collect various
desert plants and put them around the can (y'all know there are lots of
desert plants, right? The desert is alive...) then stretch a piece of
plastic wrap over the top, weigh the edges with sand and rocks and put a
little rock right over the can. It was very cool, the next morning our
cans had real water in them.

Of course, that water was coming from the plants, I don't know about
doing it the way Joyce describes, if that would work here. Well, this
week it would, because it's been raining and snowing (!). But say in
June, which is usually the hottest month here, although July and August
are worse because there's more humidity. OTOH, I've never seen the
relative humidty be zero here, although it gets into single digit numbers
often. But it seems like there's always some moisture in the air, so
maybe it would work.

Anyway, remind me in June and I'll try it :-)

Dar
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Pat Cald...

>> I told her I thought that would be neat - dah- I can't help her take >>her
>> ideas anywhere. She tells me she is always thinking of things like >>this.

>Does *she* want to go further with them?

I don't know. This stuff is so new to me. DD is in 7th grade and this is our first year homeschooling. This, expression of her ideas, is new since she now has the time to think. She also says she sees patterns in everything and pointed to the wood on the side of my dresser. I'm just going to show an interest in all she is interested in and see where it takes us. When I get a better handle on this *new* child of mine,I'll be able to ask more directed questions.

>Maybe she could write them down. But maybe that would set them in stone >too.

Not if anyone suggested it.

>Maybe what they need to be are just what they are which is brain >exercise.
>Just what if's to see how they fit into the world. It's probably the way
>inventors think. And science fiction writers.

Funny you should mention science fiction. Last night she wrote what she called a science fiction story and it included some far out ideas. Maybe that's it.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

on 2/1/02 12:35 PM, Fetteroll at fetteroll@... wrote:

> even in the desert if you stretch out a
> large sheet of plastic (big, not plastic wrap) above the ground, put a stone
> in the middle and a can on the ground under the stone, that water will
> collect and drop into the can. Maybe it's coming up from the ground? Maybe
> it just sounded cool to someone.

That was one of the survival solutions in my high school whatever class --
whichever one was trying to socialize us (social studies??). The Lifeboat
Scenario, only in our case, it was desert survival and we didn't necessarily
have to toss anyone out to save the rest. We had a list of items and had to
figure out how to survive with them. The can, though, was the body of the
flashlight whose batteries were now dead.

Nancy

Jorgen & Ann

>You seem like you are on a roll here Sandra, so can you think of what I
>might say to my 12 yo dd when she tells me her vision of how things will
>work in the future? The other day I was dragging a 100' hose all around
>the yard. My dd told me of her vision of the future when water would be
>condensed from the air and we would no longer need hoses. I told her I
>thought that would be neat - dah- I can't help her take her ideas
>anywhere. She tells me she is always thinking of things like this. OK
>Mom Sandra, what do I do to nurture this?
>

Pat,

Just being there, listening, and responding to her is your gift to her,
IMO. How often did that happen for her in school? Kids who have the time
and freedom to think may talk about lots of stuff, and "do" some stuff. My
kids let me know what they want to pursue by bringing it up a lot.

Ann

Pat Cald...

From: Jorgen & Ann
<snip>
>My kids let me know what they want to pursue by bringing it up a lot.>

I'll keep that in mind Ann, thanks.

Pat




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 1:15:43 PM, felesina@... writes:

<< But it is a FINE FINE day when you realize that you never had to
worry about the microscope, or the globe, or the chess book, or the tennis
raquet at all-when you look back and realize that all those "important path
developing tools" are collecting dust, that you wasted your energy- >>

Uh...Holly used the globe two days ago, and rediscovered a couple of kids'
books on maps. She LOVES maps. What if we didn't have those things? We put
something else in the cup we collect to take to the museum's public
microscopes. We have two chess books Marty really likes. How did I waste
my energy? I'm sorry if things at your house are collecting dust. Not that
we don't have dust, but the kids are also really happy with their stuff. A
cheap kids' map of the U.S. with stars on states the whole family has visited
together is pulled out at least every six months, and it's been used three
times in the past two weeks. It's a schooly damned map, but I bet one of the
kids will want to keep it when they leave.

I
<<that you
dont have to waste energy on other people's life any more.>>

I'm not wasting any energy on my children's lives. We have shared lives,
until they choose to leave.

<THIS is a fabulous question- it shows you really see how "offering" when
uninvited is the antithesis of trust.>>

The kids won't know when to invite me to show them a Marx Brothers movie if
they've never seen one. My kids have all seen Horsefeathers, because I
thought they'd like it. They did. It was halfway through before Kirby (who
had stood watching it without ever sitting down) said "Is this in black and
WHITE?" And today, in the mail/rental DVD, came Duck Soup. I haven't seen
it since I was a teen, and I want to share it with any kids who want. Any
who are otherwise occupied can see it later, but watching movies with others
is more fun for me than watching them alone.


<<Something that might help is to say to yourself-

<<* would I say, suggest, offer, that to my adult friend in a similar
situation? >>

And yes I DO make such offerings to my friends. "Do you want to see a
movie?"
"I found a website you might like."
"Happy Birthday! That board game you liked at our house."

have a friend who has long been interested in medieval religious
obscurities. If I ever come across a book, reference or website, I send it
to him. He sent me, for Christmas, a book with photographs of famous letters
which belong to the Crown of England. I was thrilled.

It wasn't his job, but he's my friend and knew I would love it. He was right.

Last time I went to Pam Sorooshian's house, I took her daughter (who's still
on the list, maybe?) a piano book. If I had waited for Roxanna to ask me for
a piano book, I guess I'd still be waiting. She didn't know I had any, and
had never heard of Clementi. But I had heard her play, and figured it was
something she might enjoy. What I didn't know was that she could open it and
sight read from it (not full speed, but definitely fluent reading). And what
I REALLY didn't know is that she had never had a piano lesson but had learned
all that on her own, at home.

Who was harmed in that scenario? I think everyone involved benefitted.

<if not, you are "teaching"- you have switched your focus from
yourself to your children and what they "need">>

That's parenting, not teaching.

<<> It doesn't have to be done at any one moment, just incorporate his
interest
> in chess pieces into your daily considerations until the time when he
knows
> more about it than you do (unless you're a whiz, and then sorry for the
> assumption that you weren't).

<<but you dont want the sharing of yourself and your ideas to be connected
with your children's "outcome"- yeah?>>

If they're not interested, I'll be able to tell. If they ARE interested, I
did them a favor.

There was a time when it kinda hurt my feelings if Kirby (the experimental
model, oldest child) would show a profound lack of interest in something I
thought was fun, but I got over that. It certainly didn't make me quit
offering to share things with him, I just quit taking the response personally.

<<
<<but you dont want the sharing of yourself and your ideas to be connected
with your children's "outcome"- yeah?>>>>

Rephrase, please, if others haven't already asked you to do so. Everything
in my life will affect my children's "outcome," and theirs mine.

<<I mean, you are on a totally different life path than your children, who
knows why he is stacking chess peices? >>

I'm not on a totally different path. They've been in my life since nine
months before birth, and if things continue to go as warmly as they are, one
of us will have to die to destroy this relationship. They do share with me,
lots, and I share with them.

<<It is not my responsibility to make another person's day "full or flat" or
anything- my responsibility is to be the best person I can be.>>

I SO disagree with this, or rather I think it's contradictory. The best
person I can be is a still-fun wife, an attentive mom, and a good friend to
my friends. None of that would preclude letting my husband know about a
Viking exhibit, telling Kirby someone asked about him, making sure Holly has
room cleaning her room, sitting with Marty and letting him tell me about
something he made, and about the adventures he had spending the weekend with
a friend. None of them asked me to do that, but I consciously wanted to
make their days better, which makes their lives better, which makes THEM
better.

<<I understand you are speaking to "checklist moms" - and I think it is a
transition that we all go through>>

I was answering a question. Some people's personalities make them checklist
humans their whole lives. Some are not. Holly loves schedules, but I don't.
She makes schedules. She gets me to write things down, with times, and then
complains later (yesterday she complained that she didn't do her 6:00, which
was "make a Rube Goldberg invention" because she went to a friend's house. I
told her it was fine, and she wouldn't have had any disappointment if she
hadn't had a list. But some people might want checklists their whole lives.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/02 1:55:49 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< She also says she sees patterns in everything and pointed to the wood on
the side of my dresser. I'm just going to show an interest in all she is
interested in and see where it takes us. When I get a better handle on this
*new* child of mine,I'll be able to ask more directed questions. >>

You don't have to really ask straight out questions, though. If she likes
wood patterns, next time you're in a place with wood panelling and see
something good, point it out. Lots of old furniture (and some new stuff,
though I can't afford good new stuff!) has veneer made of facing slices, so
that one side is the mirror image of the other. All the doors in my college
dormitory were like that--the outside was two facing pieces sliced and opened
up. It's fun to go to lumber yards sometimes and see patterns on wood.

We were talking about cross-cuts of wood last night because I'm wanting some
coat buttons with Celtic designs cut in with a dremel tool. And three button
holes. I want my husband and daughter, who've been messing with knotwork, to
make me five unmatched (set of five different) buttons. My husband suggested
zebra wood. I don't think that would be good with triangular or circle-based
art. I suggested curly maple.

The kids weren't even there, but eventually they'll see whatever wood gets
chosen. And if we're Oohing and Aahing, they'll at least look over our
shoulders to see what's the deal.

Holly's room has old wood panelling and she has found the matching patterns,
which change slightly as they got deeper into the wood (or shallower).

Either of us will show the other good woodgrains.

Patterns never end. <g>

Sandra

Pat Cald...

From: SandraDodd@...
>Patterns never end. <g>

I hope my dd can help me see all this wonderful stuff. I have spent my whole adult life trying to be *productive*, whatever that means. As a result, I've missed so much. I'm going to open my eyes more and do things for the enjoyment. Today I spent the day working through a math book I got my dd when we were doing school-at-home (I really like to work math problems) and reading and answering emails. Anyway, my point is, I was not productive but I didn't care.

The rest of your post was very helpful.

School-at-home would have been much easier for me. I'm really going to need to expand my interests and curiousity. This is hard.

Pat



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> In a message dated 2/1/02 1:55:49 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

> << She also says she sees patterns in everything and pointed to the
> wood on
> the side of my dresser.

Dylan always sees faces, people, animals, creatures, etc. in the patterns
of wood or the lay of carpet, in the patterns on fabric or the different
textures of fabric. We used to have this old table, is that Formica?,
with a kind of marbleized pattern on the top; he would point out
different *people*. He started outlining some with a pencil and pretty
soon we could all see them. It was fun. We had faces all over the
place. He can look at evergreen trees and see faces in them.

Deb L

Bronwen

Hi!

I wrote:

> << But it is a FINE FINE day when you realize that you never had to
> worry about the microscope, or the globe, or the chess book, or the tennis
> raquet at all-when you look back and realize that all those "important
path
> developing tools" are collecting dust, that you wasted your energy- >>
>
Sandra wrote:

Uh...Holly used the globe two days ago, and rediscovered a couple of kids'
> books on maps. She LOVES maps. What if we didn't have those things?

me:
my point isnt *dont have "stuff"*- (my kids love the globe too), or that all
tools are stupid.
just dont *worry* that there is something that you MUST have (and you arent
sure what it
is..) to provide for them- that they will let us know if they really need,
want, like something. (after all you *do* have maps- right?- cause she likes
them (or someone did)? right? and if she wanted more, you'd get them)

I wrote:
> <<Something that might help is to say to yourself-
>
> <<* would I say, suggest, offer, that to my adult friend in a similar
> situation? >>
>
Sandra:
And yes I DO make such offerings to my friends. "Do you want to see a
> movie?"
> "I found a website you might like."
> "Happy Birthday! That board game you liked at our house."
>
> have a friend who has long been interested in medieval religious
> obscurities. If I ever come across a book, reference or website, I send
it
> to him. He sent me, for Christmas, a book with photographs of famous
letters
> which belong to the Crown of England. I was thrilled.
>
> It wasn't his job, but he's my friend and knew I would love it. He was
right.

YES! this is exactly what i mean! Lovely examples. you would/ do
offer/share things with your friends/children- my point was that if you ask
yourself "would I suggest that to a friend?" it is easy to see when you have
a hidden agenda (like "maybe this will get him to read"), because with
friends you (hopefully) are less attached to what they do with your
info/stuff. ("I am thinking this game I brought to the dinner party will
expose them to bigger words- they have such a small vocabulary..." hee)


> <<but you dont want the sharing of yourself and your ideas to be connected
> with your children's "outcome"- yeah?>>>>
>
> Rephrase, please, if others haven't already asked you to do so.
Everything
> in my life will affect my children's "outcome," and theirs mine.
>

YES! I agree that everything we do affects eachother. What I mean is that
when you share yourself it is not because you want a certain "effect" - it
is with no strings attached- your sharing's main purpose is just pure
giving. Our goal is not to *mold* our kids, right? Our kids are already
whole people. I think this is a big hurdle for many and just wanted to draw
light on that idea.

> <<I mean, you are on a totally different life path than your children, who
> knows why he is stacking chess peices? >>
>
> I'm not on a totally different path. They've been in my life since nine
> months before birth, and if things continue to go as warmly as they are,
one
> of us will have to die to destroy this relationship. They do share with
me,
> lots, and I share with them.

yes- of course. still cant know what is going on in someone's brain-
easier to wait for them to give you a sign as to what they want next. The
woman who asked the question was talking about a small person stacking chess
pieces- not too much like playing "real" chess. and she was talking about
being overinvolved- carrying it way farther than the kids wanted.

>me:

> <<It is not my responsibility to make another person's day "full or flat"
or
> anything- my responsibility is to be the best person I can be.>>
>
Sandra:
> I SO disagree with this, or rather I think it's contradictory. The best
> person I can be is a still-fun wife, an attentive mom, and a good friend
to
> my friends.

Yes all good things to be- and part of being a "good person"- but while I
work on being a fun wife, attentive mom, and good friend- I am still not
*responsible* for making sure someone else has a good day-... gotta watch
out for thinking that if your toddler falls- it is your fault.

Sandra:
None of that would preclude letting my husband know about a
> Viking exhibit, telling Kirby someone asked about him, making sure Holly
has
> room cleaning her room, sitting with Marty and letting him tell me about
> something he made, and about the adventures he had spending the weekend
with
> a friend. None of them asked me to do that, but I consciously wanted to
> make their days better, which makes their lives better, which makes THEM
> better.

Yes- so true. you are painting a picture of a very supportive, sharing,
interdependant environment. That is what true giving and sharing looks like
me thinks-

Those are gifts you are giving- you are not obligated to give them, no one
is going to say, "Damn it! why didnt you tell me about that Viking exibit!"

One thing I am trying to say (thanks for helping me clarify) is that we
should free ourselves from *fear*- you know, like "what if he would have
been a chess champion, and I never showed him the game?"-

and instead *trust* that we can see when someone wants, needs likes
something- we will know- and we will give if we are able. also, it is ok
to be limited in what you can provide -because we are all "limited" in so
many ways- I can only give what's within my scope as a person living in
this state, in this culture, from this background...but I feel confident
that there is an answer to my children's life needs within that framework.


This comes up for me alot because my daughter is a dancer. People think
that there is some magic window- and if you dont expose them to it they can
never dance.. and the parents just put them in the class at "the right age"-
and "how, when, where did she start?" They are worried, you know? (like
"what if she was to be the next Darcy Kistler- and I blew it?") But there
is no way that any half consious mother (and we arent even half consious on
this list are we?) could not have noticed that my daughter was a mover, that
she might love dance. And as it was, I hardly remember mentioning the word
"ballet" at all- mostly I remember trying franticly to keep her satisfied
(with pretend dance classes, yoga poses, different types of music, real
ballet shoes, tights, etc) until she got old enough to take real ballet
(well, we still did pretend class at home..but then I was the student).
That I told her of ballet shows my limitations- I didnt tell her about irish
dancing, modern, Balinese, etc at first, because I didnt know about them-
not in my background at the time,- but what I gave her satisfied and
inspired her.

I am talking about freeing your self from worry and fear- and just enjoying
the love and sharing that life has to offer. Reading examples of your
family life helps us do that, Sandra.

Love,
Browen

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/2/02 2:35:26 AM, felesina@... writes:

<< my point was that if you ask
yourself "would I suggest that to a friend?" it is easy to see when you have
a hidden agenda (like "maybe this will get him to read"), because with
friends you (hopefully) are less attached to what they do with your
info/stuff. >>

OH! I get your point. Thanks.

I didn't give books on medieval history to other SCA friends who didn't care
so much about authenticity with the thought that they would get a clue or
remediate themselves or get interested in something they didn't have any
natural interest in before.

I'm augmenting existing fascinations, not trying to build them from scratch.

<< making sure Holly
has
> room cleaning her room>>

That was supposed to be "help cleaning her room" but sometimes room is help.
<g>

<<I am talking about freeing your self from worry and fear- and just enjoying
the love and sharing that life has to offer. >>

Okay. I'm sorry I reacted with the YIKES! WHAT? strength of my response.
Your commentary made it all the same with different labels for me.

<<That I told her of ballet shows my limitations- I didnt tell her about irish
dancing, modern, Balinese, etc at first, because I didnt know about them-
not in my background at the time>>

Holly loves to dance but she's not so graceful. She does learn the routines
and she's good musically, but her body isn't naturally expressive. She's
taken a few dance classes, and was at a(n expensive) dance camp last summer.

Yesterday she said "I'd like to try clogging." She said it because she was
watching Reading Rainbow and it was about cloggers. I do need to look for
something for her because that might be just the kind of dance she could be
good at. It's more rhythm and strength than bodily expression and contortion.

But first on our financial Holly list are a drama class and braces (her
request and insistence, I wouldn't care).

<<("I am thinking this game I brought to the dinner party will
expose them to bigger words- they have such a small vocabulary..." hee)>>

We did one time do a weekend thing with the protege (squire-like thing) of an
SCA friend in another city. His local friends were totally unable to get
through to him on some things which were holding back his SCA advancement.

My own students had made some noticeable changes, and so his teacher asked if
we could maybe talk to his, and try to undo some of his arrogance and
self-centeredness. We'd been doing a lot of work on selflessness and service
and modesty, so we said sure.

(I should note before I tell this next part that we're all still really good
friends, and that this guy is now a landed baron, meaning the ceremonial head
of a large SCA group, and is noted for his consideration of others.
Seriously.)

So the first tactic was to play some high-powered kind of games Saturday
night. One is a flea-market find called Picture Picture, in which people all
look at a picture (there are bunch of interesting things in the box, but
we've used album covers and other stuff too) and write down a word starting
with each letter of the alphabet, as much as you can do in 90 seconds, and
you get points for exclusive answers.

The visitor/victim/client was really proud of his intellect, and being fresh
out of college and having been a gifted student, blahdyblah, had much of his
self esteem tied up in being smarter than others around him. He didn't look
much past that, in fact. If there was a disagreement about something, he
mentally declared himself the winner because his IQ was higher. I hope none
of you have ever met anyone like that.

So we sweetly, and kindly, and gently kicked his ass at a word and concept
game.

That was the first boot-camp move. And it truly did help. We set the stage
for the rest of the weekend.

That's not the best of unschooling tactics, but at that stage we were in a
rehabilitation situation, and he had to be all taken down and built back up
and safely at work in another state on Monday!

Sandra

Dan Vilter

on 2/1/02 5:31 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Lots of old furniture (and some new stuff,
> though I can't afford good new stuff!) has veneer made of facing slices, so
> that one side is the mirror image of the other. All the doors in my college
> dormitory were like that--the outside was two facing pieces sliced and opened
> up. It's fun to go to lumber yards sometimes and see patterns on wood.


When I was 10 to about 18 years old I did a fair amount of woodworking. My
mom brought home a book from the library (which she left laying around for
me to discover) on marquetry, where pictures are made of inlaid veneers of
wood. I was fascinated. It started off talking about the "Book Matches" of
grain you describe in this post, and of the many aesthetic decisions to make
based on the veneers you have, balance, harmony, line, form, and visual
texture. At about the same time I saw a television program on what makes
Stradivarius Violins so revered. They mentioned, among many things, the book
matching of the wood blanks that become the front and back of the
instrument. It was the careful selection of the matching grains that not
only balance the visual aesthetic but physically balance the tone or timbre
that acoustically radiates from the finished violin.

I was in heaven to discover the relationships of the physical wood grains to
visual and aural beauty of the instrument.

-Dan Vilter
Who had to skip all the posts for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and half of
Thursday to find himself caught up on the posts of interest in
AlwaysLearning <G>

meghan anderson

<<<<Mikey
(4) says in her quelling English nanny voice, "No,
thank you". Very
repressing. <g>

Pam>>>>

Oooh, this sounds so familiar! <g>

Meghan

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