struggling
Jennifer Deets
Hello, group. I've had trouble brewing and I wondered whether you'd be able to help...
My children are 7, 5, and 2 -- girl, boy, girl. Each of them delights me and makes me crazy in their own ways. Each and every time (which has been more frequently lately due to the end of the semester (I teach), my husband's military obligation for two weeks, and my dad's recent death) I say something harshly or impatiently or, yes, with an ugly face and loud voice, I see myself watching me and wonder how that woman deserves to be a mother and what makes her think she is any better for those precious, impressionable, regular kids than caring people in an institution like school?....
I am reading "Living Joyfully with Children" and feel more and more inept as I go. I read about these wonderful things that the family does and I wonder how I can even begin to try to change some bad habits our family has developed.
As an example, my son, who is 5, saw a robot toy in Target yesterday. He said that he wanted it. I told him that we were shopping for something else and that we couldn't buy something every time we go into a store (this begging has been on the increase in the last few months). We are fortunate to have the means to be able to buy many items, and we never hesitate when the need is there and we can afford it, but it makes me nuts to have him beg and whine and beg and whine and beg and whine -- did I mention that he never stops repeating himself? By the time I got the checkout counter I was a wreck inside. People in line behind me were looking at me like "do something with that kid!" I should add that his little sister had picked up the chant, wouldn't stay seated, and was not really helping things at all. Oh, and our oldest decided to throw in some tears also -- she wanted to continue our shopping, but I was not about to spend another minute in the store. I had gotten the main thing I needed and I was ready to flee.
When we got out in the parking lot and into the van, I turned around and yelled at Britton. I lectured and chastised and lectured some more. By the time we got home, all of us were spent. And I sobbed, wondering how I can know this is not good and still be unable to change, thereby unable to model the consistent kind, gentleness I dream of being the tone of our home.
Before anyone gets to antsy about pointing out my faults, I really do see them; what I need your suggestions with is moving forward from here. In public with strangers, I appear to be this really patient person, but I struggle with remaining that patient at home....
Thanks,
Jennifer
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My children are 7, 5, and 2 -- girl, boy, girl. Each of them delights me and makes me crazy in their own ways. Each and every time (which has been more frequently lately due to the end of the semester (I teach), my husband's military obligation for two weeks, and my dad's recent death) I say something harshly or impatiently or, yes, with an ugly face and loud voice, I see myself watching me and wonder how that woman deserves to be a mother and what makes her think she is any better for those precious, impressionable, regular kids than caring people in an institution like school?....
I am reading "Living Joyfully with Children" and feel more and more inept as I go. I read about these wonderful things that the family does and I wonder how I can even begin to try to change some bad habits our family has developed.
As an example, my son, who is 5, saw a robot toy in Target yesterday. He said that he wanted it. I told him that we were shopping for something else and that we couldn't buy something every time we go into a store (this begging has been on the increase in the last few months). We are fortunate to have the means to be able to buy many items, and we never hesitate when the need is there and we can afford it, but it makes me nuts to have him beg and whine and beg and whine and beg and whine -- did I mention that he never stops repeating himself? By the time I got the checkout counter I was a wreck inside. People in line behind me were looking at me like "do something with that kid!" I should add that his little sister had picked up the chant, wouldn't stay seated, and was not really helping things at all. Oh, and our oldest decided to throw in some tears also -- she wanted to continue our shopping, but I was not about to spend another minute in the store. I had gotten the main thing I needed and I was ready to flee.
When we got out in the parking lot and into the van, I turned around and yelled at Britton. I lectured and chastised and lectured some more. By the time we got home, all of us were spent. And I sobbed, wondering how I can know this is not good and still be unable to change, thereby unable to model the consistent kind, gentleness I dream of being the tone of our home.
Before anyone gets to antsy about pointing out my faults, I really do see them; what I need your suggestions with is moving forward from here. In public with strangers, I appear to be this really patient person, but I struggle with remaining that patient at home....
Thanks,
Jennifer
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message Dated: 12/8/2001 5:33:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
Jennifer says:
And I sobbed, wondering how I can know this is not good and still be unable
to change, thereby unable to model the consistent kind, gentleness I dream of
being the tone of our home.
WOW! You really hit home. I deal with the exact same issues. I'll go to
bed and cry, thinking to myself......."How could I have been THAT kind of
mommy". She deserves better than that. I try to think of all the positive
things we have together but always remember the (1) time I messed it up.
There was something that I remember reading that haunts me.
IT TAKES 14 POSITIVES TO UNDO 1 NEGATIVE..............
Then I'm crushed. I know when I fly off the handle that I'm supposed to just
start laughing or say "opps, mommy is making a mistake right now". But
sometimes it's so hard not to go on.
I would also appreciate any advice anyone has to offer.
Struggling also,
Nicole
Jennifer says:
And I sobbed, wondering how I can know this is not good and still be unable
to change, thereby unable to model the consistent kind, gentleness I dream of
being the tone of our home.
WOW! You really hit home. I deal with the exact same issues. I'll go to
bed and cry, thinking to myself......."How could I have been THAT kind of
mommy". She deserves better than that. I try to think of all the positive
things we have together but always remember the (1) time I messed it up.
There was something that I remember reading that haunts me.
IT TAKES 14 POSITIVES TO UNDO 1 NEGATIVE..............
Then I'm crushed. I know when I fly off the handle that I'm supposed to just
start laughing or say "opps, mommy is making a mistake right now". But
sometimes it's so hard not to go on.
I would also appreciate any advice anyone has to offer.
Struggling also,
Nicole
groundhoggirl
On Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 07:34 PM, Jennifer Deets wrote:
say you really do have your hands full. As a former very caring public
school teacher let me also tell you that there is NO WAY that they can
care for your children as much as you do. I have tried. It is
impossible. Of course, I was a high school teacher so the ratio was
much greater than that of an elementary school teacher. But still, 3:1
is a whole lot better than 20+:1. I know there are many wonderful,
caring teachers out there, but no one knows your children, or cares
about them like you do.
and have more patience. Keep reading books like that.
don't want to get into what steps you need to stop the whining. Maybe
someone else can do that for you. I definitely ignore the strangers and
always remember that my children are more important than strangers.
are already 7 years old, so I know it's a lot easier for me right now
than it is for you. But, when my boys were 4 and 5 and I think back to
my behavior back then, I am truly ashamed. But, there were some other
things going on with my marriage and my having to work, etc. It was a
very stressful time. It is very difficult, but just KEEP TRYING to do
the right thing. It will definitely get better as they get older. If
you keep trying, the sooner it will get better. That's my opinion. You
really do have your hands full. I can't imagine having 3 children that
age. Remember, you are only human and you are allowed to make
mistakes. My boys are very happy right now and the bad times didn't
seem to have any effect on them. Thank goodness.
temper. Remember, they are only children. They can only express their
feelings in certain ways. Always ignore the strangers and always try
your best. I thinks it's only a matter of time before things get
better. This is the advice of a very less than perfect mother who loves
her children very much and wants the very best for them. And, remember,
as a former teacher, I can honestly say that NO ONE can care for your
children as much as you or your husband. This is my opinion and
advice. I'm sorry if this post did not offer any constructive
suggestions. Maybe someone else can help you there.
Mimi
> Hello, group. I've had trouble brewing and I wondered whether you'd beOK. Well, first of all, as a mother of only 2 children, I would like to
> able to help...
>
> My children are 7, 5, and 2 -- girl, boy, girl. Each of them delights
> me and makes me crazy in their own ways. Each and every time (which has
> been more frequently lately due to the end of the semester (I teach),
> my husband's military obligation for two weeks, and my dad's recent
> death) I say something harshly or impatiently or, yes, with an ugly
> face and loud voice, I see myself watching me and wonder how that woman
> deserves to be a mother and what makes her think she is any better for
> those precious, impressionable, regular kids than caring people in an
> institution like school?....
>
say you really do have your hands full. As a former very caring public
school teacher let me also tell you that there is NO WAY that they can
care for your children as much as you do. I have tried. It is
impossible. Of course, I was a high school teacher so the ratio was
much greater than that of an elementary school teacher. But still, 3:1
is a whole lot better than 20+:1. I know there are many wonderful,
caring teachers out there, but no one knows your children, or cares
about them like you do.
> I am reading "Living Joyfully with Children" and feel more and moreDon't feel inept. I'm sure you're trying the best you can. Just try
> inept as I go. I read about these wonderful things that the family does
> and I wonder how I can even begin to try to change some bad habits our
> family has developed.
and have more patience. Keep reading books like that.
>I know exactly what you mean. I have learned to ignore strangers. I
> As an example, my son, who is 5, saw a robot toy in Target yesterday.
> He said that he wanted it. I told him that we were shopping for
> something else and that we couldn't buy something every time we go into
> a store (this begging has been on the increase in the last few months).
> We are fortunate to have the means to be able to buy many items, and we
> never hesitate when the need is there and we can afford it, but it
> makes me nuts to have him beg and whine and beg and whine and beg and
> whine -- did I mention that he never stops repeating himself? By the
> time I got the checkout counter I was a wreck inside. People in line
> behind me were looking at me like "do something with that kid!" I
> should add that his little sister had picked up the chant, wouldn't
> stay seated, and was not really helping things at all. Oh, and our
> oldest decided to throw in some tears also -- she wanted to continue
> our shopping, but I was not about to spend another minute in the store.
> I had gotten! the main thing I needed and I was ready to flee.
don't want to get into what steps you need to stop the whining. Maybe
someone else can do that for you. I definitely ignore the strangers and
always remember that my children are more important than strangers.
>I hate to say that I have yelled at my kids too. I only have 2 and they
> When we got out in the parking lot and into the van, I turned around
> and yelled at Britton. I lectured and chastised and lectured some more.
> By the time we got home, all of us were spent. And I sobbed, wondering
> how I can know this is not good and still be unable to change, thereby
> unable to model the consistent kind, gentleness I dream of being the
> tone of our home.
are already 7 years old, so I know it's a lot easier for me right now
than it is for you. But, when my boys were 4 and 5 and I think back to
my behavior back then, I am truly ashamed. But, there were some other
things going on with my marriage and my having to work, etc. It was a
very stressful time. It is very difficult, but just KEEP TRYING to do
the right thing. It will definitely get better as they get older. If
you keep trying, the sooner it will get better. That's my opinion. You
really do have your hands full. I can't imagine having 3 children that
age. Remember, you are only human and you are allowed to make
mistakes. My boys are very happy right now and the bad times didn't
seem to have any effect on them. Thank goodness.
>My only adivice, again, is to just keep trying your best to hold your
> Before anyone gets to antsy about pointing out my faults, I really do
> see them; what I need your suggestions with is moving forward from
> here. In public with strangers, I appear to be this really patient
> person, but I struggle with remaining that patient at home....
temper. Remember, they are only children. They can only express their
feelings in certain ways. Always ignore the strangers and always try
your best. I thinks it's only a matter of time before things get
better. This is the advice of a very less than perfect mother who loves
her children very much and wants the very best for them. And, remember,
as a former teacher, I can honestly say that NO ONE can care for your
children as much as you or your husband. This is my opinion and
advice. I'm sorry if this post did not offer any constructive
suggestions. Maybe someone else can help you there.
Mimi
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Thanks,
> Jennifer
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Pam Hartley
Dog trainers have a phrase, "Setting up for failure."
Sometimes, such is a trip to Target with three young children unless you're
in a really good mood to start with. :)
For some "nuts and bolts" suggestions:
1. We have curbed a lot of the irritant here by just issuing allowances to
everyone (adults and children). My four year old is not a computational
genius, but she trusts me, so if we're in a store and she wants something, I
either tell her how much it is and how much she can afford, or tell her that
she's out of money until the first of the month. The allowances were agreed
on as a family, are eligible for review at any time, and seem to work well
for us.
2. I am also very likely to offer bribes in exchange for accompanying me on
boring errands. I try not to drag anyone on boring errands to begin with
(bad enough that I have to go!) but when I do, I usually tell the girls to
pick something under whatever amount we can comfortably afford at the time
(some weeks, a buck. <g>) or offer a good activity in exchange for the bad
(a trip to the park for a trip to the bank).
3. For big wants, I keep all-year Christmas and birthday lists going, and we
review the lists before the major holidays, pare them down, and then send
them to doting grandparents (yes, the grandparents want the lists <g>, and
we parents buy some of the biggies, too. Later, I think they'll start
actually saving money or working for more money, but mine don't seem
interested yet in long-term planning).
For the actual problem (lack of patience, parental tantrums, etc.):
You can control yourself. You might not feel like you can, but you can,
because you do so in public. That means that yelling, etc. in private is a
choice, not an act of God or nature. :) I don't say this to be snarky, but
because I think it's really helpful to look at it that way -- I *CAN*
control myself. It's my choice if I don't. If my child were a 31 year old
Hell's Angel not related to me, I would not be shrieking at him right now.
All the usual stuff that you would do if an adult drove you nuts will work:
deep breaths, mentally counting to 10, making the decision NOT to yell back,
etc. Even if you're not calm, you can act calm, and eventually by acting
calm a lot you'll actually start to feel that way.
Look at what environmental changes you can make to bring the irritation
level down as far as possible. The relationship you're building now is all
you have with your kids, it's worth really pulling it apart and making it
tick better.
Pam
----------
From: "Jennifer Deets" <jdeets@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] struggling
Date: Sat, Dec 8, 2001, 5:34 PM
In public with strangers, I appear to be this really patient person, but I
struggle with remaining that patient at home....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sometimes, such is a trip to Target with three young children unless you're
in a really good mood to start with. :)
For some "nuts and bolts" suggestions:
1. We have curbed a lot of the irritant here by just issuing allowances to
everyone (adults and children). My four year old is not a computational
genius, but she trusts me, so if we're in a store and she wants something, I
either tell her how much it is and how much she can afford, or tell her that
she's out of money until the first of the month. The allowances were agreed
on as a family, are eligible for review at any time, and seem to work well
for us.
2. I am also very likely to offer bribes in exchange for accompanying me on
boring errands. I try not to drag anyone on boring errands to begin with
(bad enough that I have to go!) but when I do, I usually tell the girls to
pick something under whatever amount we can comfortably afford at the time
(some weeks, a buck. <g>) or offer a good activity in exchange for the bad
(a trip to the park for a trip to the bank).
3. For big wants, I keep all-year Christmas and birthday lists going, and we
review the lists before the major holidays, pare them down, and then send
them to doting grandparents (yes, the grandparents want the lists <g>, and
we parents buy some of the biggies, too. Later, I think they'll start
actually saving money or working for more money, but mine don't seem
interested yet in long-term planning).
For the actual problem (lack of patience, parental tantrums, etc.):
You can control yourself. You might not feel like you can, but you can,
because you do so in public. That means that yelling, etc. in private is a
choice, not an act of God or nature. :) I don't say this to be snarky, but
because I think it's really helpful to look at it that way -- I *CAN*
control myself. It's my choice if I don't. If my child were a 31 year old
Hell's Angel not related to me, I would not be shrieking at him right now.
All the usual stuff that you would do if an adult drove you nuts will work:
deep breaths, mentally counting to 10, making the decision NOT to yell back,
etc. Even if you're not calm, you can act calm, and eventually by acting
calm a lot you'll actually start to feel that way.
Look at what environmental changes you can make to bring the irritation
level down as far as possible. The relationship you're building now is all
you have with your kids, it's worth really pulling it apart and making it
tick better.
Pam
----------
From: "Jennifer Deets" <jdeets@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] struggling
Date: Sat, Dec 8, 2001, 5:34 PM
In public with strangers, I appear to be this really patient person, but I
struggle with remaining that patient at home....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2001 8:57:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dcsmiller@... writes:
decided that I'm not doing my children any favors by fretting over it. They
see me for who I am - mistakes and all. I apologize and we go on, the same
as we do if they make a mistake. I've let them know that mommy is still
growing up, changing, and working toward bettering myself in much the same
way they are. We don't reach a magical age of being perfect - it's a process
- so keep working toward it as best as you can and enjoy life! :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dcsmiller@... writes:
> . I'll go toI used to feel this way and torment myself for being imperfect. Then I
> bed and cry, thinking to myself......."How could I have been THAT kind of
> mommy". She deserves better than that. I try to think of all the positive
>
> things we have together but always remember the (1) time I messed it up.
decided that I'm not doing my children any favors by fretting over it. They
see me for who I am - mistakes and all. I apologize and we go on, the same
as we do if they make a mistake. I've let them know that mommy is still
growing up, changing, and working toward bettering myself in much the same
way they are. We don't reach a magical age of being perfect - it's a process
- so keep working toward it as best as you can and enjoy life! :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
groundhoggirl
One thing I used to do, and still do, if I lose my temper, is to
apologize. Say you're sorry you lost your temper, and, if you can,
explain why. This is something which I think is important and I forgot
to include in my last post. Your children are learning that you are
human and you make mistakes.
Mimi
apologize. Say you're sorry you lost your temper, and, if you can,
explain why. This is something which I think is important and I forgot
to include in my last post. Your children are learning that you are
human and you make mistakes.
Mimi
On Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 07:56 PM, dcsmiller@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message Dated: 12/8/2001 5:33:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> Jennifer says:
>
> And I sobbed, wondering how I can know this is not good and still be
> unable
> to change, thereby unable to model the consistent kind, gentleness I
> dream of
> being the tone of our home.
>
> WOW! You really hit home. I deal with the exact same issues. I'll go
> to
> bed and cry, thinking to myself......."How could I have been THAT kind
> of
> mommy". She deserves better than that. I try to think of all the
> positive
> things we have together but always remember the (1) time I messed it
> up.
> There was something that I remember reading that haunts me.
>
> IT TAKES 14 POSITIVES TO UNDO 1 NEGATIVE..............
>
> Then I'm crushed. I know when I fly off the handle that I'm supposed
> to just
> start laughing or say "opps, mommy is making a mistake right now". But
> sometimes it's so hard not to go on.
>
> I would also appreciate any advice anyone has to offer.
>
> Struggling also,
> Nicole
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2001 8:34:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jdeets@... writes:
worthwhile. :)
Maybe something like this could help? If he doesn't beg at the store, he can
stay awake a little later on the weekend, like the big boy he's been behaving
as? Or perhaps he could have a special dinner/movie on the weekend if he's
controlled himself all week. I'd try to find a bonus that he gains by not
allowing himself to beg.
He's still young - and a lot of it comes with age. I think you're doing the
right thing by trying to steer him clear of this behavior now, rather than
later, though. :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jdeets@... writes:
> By the time I got the checkout counter I was a wreck inside. People in lineI think you need to come up with an incentive that makes his begging not
> behind me were looking at me like "do something with that kid!"
worthwhile. :)
Maybe something like this could help? If he doesn't beg at the store, he can
stay awake a little later on the weekend, like the big boy he's been behaving
as? Or perhaps he could have a special dinner/movie on the weekend if he's
controlled himself all week. I'd try to find a bonus that he gains by not
allowing himself to beg.
He's still young - and a lot of it comes with age. I think you're doing the
right thing by trying to steer him clear of this behavior now, rather than
later, though. :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
groundhoggirl
I would like to respectfully disagree with your advice here. I always
TRY and stay away from "if you do this then I will give you this"
solutions.
In my opinion, I think it would be best, at this point, to absolutely
refuse to buy the toy, or whatever it is, and stand your ground. Let
the tantrum take it's course and try and ignore the stares from
strangers as much as possible. After your child goes through this
experience a few times s/he will eventually learn that his behavior is
not working.
I hope this doesn't sound cruel. But, that is what I would do.
Luckily, I only suffered tantrums in situations like that a few times.
At this point, my boys (age 7) know that when I say NO it is NO. I
usually give them an honest explanation why it is no and they usually
understand. Of course, my boys are older than most of your kids. But,
this is how I have handled it from the very beginning.
Sometimes they are allowed to get a toy and sometimes they are not. It
all depends on the condition of my finances. So, sometimes they are
allowed to choose a toy within a certain price range and sometimes I
just can't afford it. They seem to understand that very well by now. I
have found that it is always best to be truthful with my children and
let them know exactly how things are.
I don't believe in giving rewards for good behavior. Good behavior
should be expected. But, at the same time, if they're having a bad day,
or they really have their heart set on something you can't give them,
then allow them to be upset and ignore the strangers. This is how my
boys and I go shopping.
Mimi
TRY and stay away from "if you do this then I will give you this"
solutions.
In my opinion, I think it would be best, at this point, to absolutely
refuse to buy the toy, or whatever it is, and stand your ground. Let
the tantrum take it's course and try and ignore the stares from
strangers as much as possible. After your child goes through this
experience a few times s/he will eventually learn that his behavior is
not working.
I hope this doesn't sound cruel. But, that is what I would do.
Luckily, I only suffered tantrums in situations like that a few times.
At this point, my boys (age 7) know that when I say NO it is NO. I
usually give them an honest explanation why it is no and they usually
understand. Of course, my boys are older than most of your kids. But,
this is how I have handled it from the very beginning.
Sometimes they are allowed to get a toy and sometimes they are not. It
all depends on the condition of my finances. So, sometimes they are
allowed to choose a toy within a certain price range and sometimes I
just can't afford it. They seem to understand that very well by now. I
have found that it is always best to be truthful with my children and
let them know exactly how things are.
I don't believe in giving rewards for good behavior. Good behavior
should be expected. But, at the same time, if they're having a bad day,
or they really have their heart set on something you can't give them,
then allow them to be upset and ignore the strangers. This is how my
boys and I go shopping.
Mimi
On Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 08:26 PM, kpgrew96@... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/8/2001 8:34:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jdeets@... writes:
>
> > By the time I got the checkout counter I was a wreck inside. People
> in line
> > behind me were looking at me like "do something with that kid!"
>
> I think you need to come up with an incentive that makes his begging not
> worthwhile. :)
>
> Maybe something like this could help? If he doesn't beg at the store,
> he can
> stay awake a little later on the weekend, like the big boy he's been
> behaving
> as? Or perhaps he could have a special dinner/movie on the weekend if
> he's
> controlled himself all week. I'd try to find a bonus that he gains by
> not
> allowing himself to beg.
>
> He's still young - and a lot of it comes with age. I think you're
> doing the
> right thing by trying to steer him clear of this behavior now, rather
> than
> later, though. :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
This sounds like our family. When my children were small we had four 2 years
apart. My husband and I both worked full time and the children went with me
to my job. The kids learned early that whining and begging for "whatever"
did not good, whether we were in the store or at home. We said no and that
was it. We did not spank them but we were firmed and we ignored their cries.
It only took a few times before they quit trying. They saw it did not work.
We did not buy the kids lots of toys but we spent a lot of time with them. We
played games, went hiking, did projects together. We respected each other.
But that does not mean they were perfect or I was either. I made mistakes and
so have they. We have all apologized and I hope I have learned from my
mistakes. Now my children are about grown. My girls 17 and 15 babysit several
full days a week for their 5 and 3 yr old cousins. They are learning quickly
how hard it is to be a "parent". I just smile. I know, I know.
Candace
In a message dated 12/8/2001 8:57:12 PM Central Standard Time,
groundhoggirl@... writes:
apart. My husband and I both worked full time and the children went with me
to my job. The kids learned early that whining and begging for "whatever"
did not good, whether we were in the store or at home. We said no and that
was it. We did not spank them but we were firmed and we ignored their cries.
It only took a few times before they quit trying. They saw it did not work.
We did not buy the kids lots of toys but we spent a lot of time with them. We
played games, went hiking, did projects together. We respected each other.
But that does not mean they were perfect or I was either. I made mistakes and
so have they. We have all apologized and I hope I have learned from my
mistakes. Now my children are about grown. My girls 17 and 15 babysit several
full days a week for their 5 and 3 yr old cousins. They are learning quickly
how hard it is to be a "parent". I just smile. I know, I know.
Candace
In a message dated 12/8/2001 8:57:12 PM Central Standard Time,
groundhoggirl@... writes:
> would like to respectfully disagree with your advice here. I always[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> TRY and stay away from "if you do this then I will give you this"
> solutions.
>
> In my opinion, I think it would be best, at this point, to absolutely
> refuse to buy the toy, or whatever it is, and stand your ground. Let
> the tantrum take it's course and try and ignore the stares from
> strangers as much as possible. After your child goes through this
> experience a few times s/he will eventually learn that his behavior is
> not working.
>
> I hope this doesn't sound cruel. But, that is what I would do.
> Luckily, I only suffered tantrums in situations like that a few times.
> At this point, my boys (age 7) know that when I say NO it is NO. I
> usually give them an honest explanation why it is no and they usually
> understand. Of course, my boys are older than most of your kids. But,
> this is how I have handled it from the very beginning.
>
> Sometimes they are allowed to get a toy and sometimes they are not. It
> all depends on the condition of my finances. So, sometimes they are
> allowed to choose a toy within a certain price range and sometimes I
> just can't afford it. They seem to understand that very well by now. I
> have found that it is always best to be truthful with my children and
> let them know exactly how things are.
>
> I don't believe in giving rewards for good behavior. Good behavior
> should be expected. But, at the same time, if they're having a bad day,
> or they really have their heart set on something you can't give them,
> then allow them to be upset and ignore the strangers. This is how my
> boys and I go shopping.
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2001 9:56:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
groundhoggirl@... writes:
will work with your children.
For me, I had a lot less problematic areas by rewarding their good behavior
and ignoring their bad behaviors. We've walked out of the store on several
occasions during a tantrum. I've also offered incentives.
If it's a particularly problematic area, I may offer an incentive for a week
or two and they have accustomed themselves to "catching themselves" in the
midst of the problem area.
When they were about 4-5 years old, we had a chart on the refrigerator with
basic blocks: helping mommy, picking up toys, being kind to siblings, etc.
If I witnessed them doing the things on the chart, I would put a happy face
sticker on the block (sometimes they'd earn a few on each block). They were
proud of the charts and seeing that I was recognizing what they were doing
well. One son was very upset that he received a "frowny face" on the square
and grandma was coming later that day and would know he hadn't been behaving.
LOL. My goal was to have them monitor themselves - to be aware of their
behavior over the course of the day/week - and it has been working well for
us. The first week, they were actually surprised to see how many times
during the week they had thrown a tantrum. It may not work for your family,
but it definitely worked for ours. :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
groundhoggirl@... writes:
> I don't believe in giving rewards for good behavior. Good behaviorI see your point. You know your children better than I, and you know what
> should be expected.
will work with your children.
For me, I had a lot less problematic areas by rewarding their good behavior
and ignoring their bad behaviors. We've walked out of the store on several
occasions during a tantrum. I've also offered incentives.
If it's a particularly problematic area, I may offer an incentive for a week
or two and they have accustomed themselves to "catching themselves" in the
midst of the problem area.
When they were about 4-5 years old, we had a chart on the refrigerator with
basic blocks: helping mommy, picking up toys, being kind to siblings, etc.
If I witnessed them doing the things on the chart, I would put a happy face
sticker on the block (sometimes they'd earn a few on each block). They were
proud of the charts and seeing that I was recognizing what they were doing
well. One son was very upset that he received a "frowny face" on the square
and grandma was coming later that day and would know he hadn't been behaving.
LOL. My goal was to have them monitor themselves - to be aware of their
behavior over the course of the day/week - and it has been working well for
us. The first week, they were actually surprised to see how many times
during the week they had thrown a tantrum. It may not work for your family,
but it definitely worked for ours. :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
groundhoggirl
On Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 09:31 PM, kpgrew96@... wrote:
younger. It's pretty embarrassing.
not a robot. But, I have always considered it a mistake when I did so.
I have never liked the idea of positive and negative reinforcement, or
punishments and rewards. I find it manipulative and stay away from it
as much as possible. This is one of the reasons I don't send my kids to
school. Teachers are continually using positive and negative
reinforcement. It is something they are taught to do.
My ideas on this are heavily influenced by Alfie Kohn, the author of
"Punished by Rewards".
Mimi
> << We've walked out of the store on severalYes. We've had to walk out of the store a few times also when they were
> occasions during a tantrum. I've also offered incentives.>>
younger. It's pretty embarrassing.
>I can't say I have never given in or never offered an incentive. I'm
> <<If it's a particularly problematic area, I may offer an incentive for
> a week
> or two and they have accustomed themselves to "catching themselves" in
> the
> midst of the problem area.
>
> When they were about 4-5 years old, we had a chart on the refrigerator
> with
> basic blocks: helping mommy, picking up toys, being kind to siblings,
> etc.
> If I witnessed them doing the things on the chart, I would put a happy
> face
> sticker on the block (sometimes they'd earn a few on each block). They
> were
> proud of the charts and seeing that I was recognizing what they were
> doing
> well. One son was very upset that he received a "frowny face" on the
> square
> and grandma was coming later that day and would know he hadn't been
> behaving.
> LOL. My goal was to have them monitor themselves - to be aware of their
> behavior over the course of the day/week - and it has been working well
> for
> us. The first week, they were actually surprised to see how many times
> during the week they had thrown a tantrum. It may not work for your
> family,
> but it definitely worked for ours. :)>>
not a robot. But, I have always considered it a mistake when I did so.
I have never liked the idea of positive and negative reinforcement, or
punishments and rewards. I find it manipulative and stay away from it
as much as possible. This is one of the reasons I don't send my kids to
school. Teachers are continually using positive and negative
reinforcement. It is something they are taught to do.
My ideas on this are heavily influenced by Alfie Kohn, the author of
"Punished by Rewards".
Mimi
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[email protected]
<< I told him that we were shopping for something else and that we couldn't
buy something every time we go into a store (this begging has been on the
increase in the last few months). >>
Part A, you could have said yes instead of no.
Not "YES! You can have it right now!" but "If that's what you decide you want
for Christmas I'll try to get it for you." Or "...birthday..." or whatever.
With an answer like that, he gets "yes" and "Maybe yes" and "I hear you" and
"You might not really want that in a month or three."
And Part A, if the begging is on the increase he's needy, but not for robots.
give him something: time, backrubs, a new tape or CD of something he likes,
or rearrange his room, or make his favorite food. There are cheap and free
things you can load onto and toward a needy kid. He's not being selfish to
actually need more attention, more mom, more recognition of self. And you
won't be spoiling him to meet his needs any more than you would be spoiling
him to make sure he has a blanket on his bed, and a pillow, and a bath
sometimes and toilet paper for his butt. There are necessities, and
attention and direct one-on-one regard is one of them, bigtime.
Sandra
buy something every time we go into a store (this begging has been on the
increase in the last few months). >>
Part A, you could have said yes instead of no.
Not "YES! You can have it right now!" but "If that's what you decide you want
for Christmas I'll try to get it for you." Or "...birthday..." or whatever.
With an answer like that, he gets "yes" and "Maybe yes" and "I hear you" and
"You might not really want that in a month or three."
And Part A, if the begging is on the increase he's needy, but not for robots.
give him something: time, backrubs, a new tape or CD of something he likes,
or rearrange his room, or make his favorite food. There are cheap and free
things you can load onto and toward a needy kid. He's not being selfish to
actually need more attention, more mom, more recognition of self. And you
won't be spoiling him to meet his needs any more than you would be spoiling
him to make sure he has a blanket on his bed, and a pillow, and a bath
sometimes and toilet paper for his butt. There are necessities, and
attention and direct one-on-one regard is one of them, bigtime.
Sandra
groundhoggirl
On Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 08:24 PM, kpgrew96@... wrote:
Mimi
> In a message dated 12/8/2001 8:57:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,You said that perfectly. That's exactly how I feel.
> dcsmiller@... writes:
>
> They
> see me for who I am - mistakes and all. I apologize and we go on, the
> same
> as we do if they make a mistake. I've let them know that mommy is still
> growing up, changing, and working toward bettering myself in much the
> same
> way they are. We don't reach a magical age of being perfect - it's a
> process
> - so keep working toward it as best as you can and enjoy life! :)
>
Mimi
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[email protected]
Comments on comments...
<< just keep trying your best to hold your
temper. Remember, they are only children. They can only express their
feelings in certain ways. >>
If better ways are modelled for them, they have more and better choices,
though. To say "They're just kids" is true, but kids are bright, and they
aren't acting in a vacuum.
Holding one's temper is great, but it helps to change your beliefs, your
attitude, your oxygen level/heart rate and to increase your own range of
choices.
The best trick I know is to give yourself two choices, for starters. If
you've been thinking "All I can do is X," next time give yourself X and Y
(another, better choice). If Y works for you, afterward think of something
that might have worked even better. Next time, don't make old, inferior X a
choice--choose between Y and Z. Soon you'll have more than two tried and
true choices.
<<Even if you're not calm, you can act calm, and eventually by acting
calm a lot you'll actually start to feel that way.>>
Good point. This is a version of "fake it 'til you make it" and also related
to my changing your attitude and beliefs.
People make decisions based on their philosophies, their prioirities, their
belief systems. Even people who don't think they have belief systems have
things they consider good and bad, acceptable and unacceptable. Many,
unfortunately, give children a slim range of "acceptable" and themselves a
HUGE range. If you change your belief system to say that it's not far for
children to take the dregs of life and the adults to enjoy all the fruits and
privilege, then it will affect not only the way your treat your children but
the way you interpret what they say and do.
<<The relationship you're building now is all
you have with your kids, it's worth really pulling it apart and making it
tick better.>>
Yes; pam said a wise thing for sure.
<<Or perhaps he could have a special dinner/movie on the weekend if he's
controlled himself all week. I'd try to find a bonus that he gains by not
allowing himself to beg.>>
A week is like a lifetime to a little kid.
Maybe remembering to thank him when he's helpful, to say "I'm really glad we
had fun in the store today" if he wasn't whiney, instead of commenting on the
negative behavior and taking positive behavior for granted.
And if kids learn to perform for incentives, it can become a lifetime habit.
Should his wife reward him with food or movies (or whatever wives have) if
he's good all week? Meeting his needs first could avert the negative
consequences of neediness.
Like... If I promised Kirby if he was sweet and cooperative all day I'd give
him a high-protein dinner, it would be hard for him. He's fairly well
hypo-glycemic, and gets a headache if he goes several hours without eating
something good. If I give him a protein breakfast and a protein lunch (at
least one or the other), he WILL be sweet. If I withhold what he needs
contingent on behavior, I'm setting me, him, the family and the neighbors up
for frustration.
<<In my opinion, I think it would be best, at this point, to absolutely
refuse to buy the toy, or whatever it is, and stand your ground. >>
I don't think that's better than "maybe later."
Why insult a child and destroy hope?
Why let a tantrum come and bloom and continue and die when it can be averted
by sweet and honest communication between people?
<< Let the tantrum take it's course and try and ignore the stares from
strangers as much as possible. >>
I think, when I'm in a store, that the other people have the particular right
to shop in peace. I have read baffling advice from homeschooling moms (and
some others) who are basically saying "to hell with other people; live your
life with your child as though other people don't exist."
I try to be considerate of everyone--strangers, waiters, store personnel, my
children--and the kids pick it up. If in the course of being cold to your
children you are also cold and cruel to strangers, who learns what??
<<I don't believe in giving rewards for good behavior. Good behavior
should be expected. >>
When my husband does something really sweet I tell him so. I smile and hug
him and brag him up to my friends and tell him a few hours later or the next
day or week or years later what a cool thing it was that he did whatever it
was for me. I thanked him the other day for the fine genetic contribution to
the kids. He said he never expected to be thanked for that so long after the
fact.
Is that rewarding good behavior? I hope so. I would hate to just expect
good behavior from my husband and for him to have to learn not to expect
positive feedback or reward of any sort, just a flat "no" when I don't want
to do something with or for him.
Except in the few obvious ways, I don't treat my children in a lesser way
than I treat my husband. It has been crucial to our interactions as an
unschooling family that the kids were people first, and kids only incidently
and temporarily.
Sandra
<< just keep trying your best to hold your
temper. Remember, they are only children. They can only express their
feelings in certain ways. >>
If better ways are modelled for them, they have more and better choices,
though. To say "They're just kids" is true, but kids are bright, and they
aren't acting in a vacuum.
Holding one's temper is great, but it helps to change your beliefs, your
attitude, your oxygen level/heart rate and to increase your own range of
choices.
The best trick I know is to give yourself two choices, for starters. If
you've been thinking "All I can do is X," next time give yourself X and Y
(another, better choice). If Y works for you, afterward think of something
that might have worked even better. Next time, don't make old, inferior X a
choice--choose between Y and Z. Soon you'll have more than two tried and
true choices.
<<Even if you're not calm, you can act calm, and eventually by acting
calm a lot you'll actually start to feel that way.>>
Good point. This is a version of "fake it 'til you make it" and also related
to my changing your attitude and beliefs.
People make decisions based on their philosophies, their prioirities, their
belief systems. Even people who don't think they have belief systems have
things they consider good and bad, acceptable and unacceptable. Many,
unfortunately, give children a slim range of "acceptable" and themselves a
HUGE range. If you change your belief system to say that it's not far for
children to take the dregs of life and the adults to enjoy all the fruits and
privilege, then it will affect not only the way your treat your children but
the way you interpret what they say and do.
<<The relationship you're building now is all
you have with your kids, it's worth really pulling it apart and making it
tick better.>>
Yes; pam said a wise thing for sure.
<<Or perhaps he could have a special dinner/movie on the weekend if he's
controlled himself all week. I'd try to find a bonus that he gains by not
allowing himself to beg.>>
A week is like a lifetime to a little kid.
Maybe remembering to thank him when he's helpful, to say "I'm really glad we
had fun in the store today" if he wasn't whiney, instead of commenting on the
negative behavior and taking positive behavior for granted.
And if kids learn to perform for incentives, it can become a lifetime habit.
Should his wife reward him with food or movies (or whatever wives have) if
he's good all week? Meeting his needs first could avert the negative
consequences of neediness.
Like... If I promised Kirby if he was sweet and cooperative all day I'd give
him a high-protein dinner, it would be hard for him. He's fairly well
hypo-glycemic, and gets a headache if he goes several hours without eating
something good. If I give him a protein breakfast and a protein lunch (at
least one or the other), he WILL be sweet. If I withhold what he needs
contingent on behavior, I'm setting me, him, the family and the neighbors up
for frustration.
<<In my opinion, I think it would be best, at this point, to absolutely
refuse to buy the toy, or whatever it is, and stand your ground. >>
I don't think that's better than "maybe later."
Why insult a child and destroy hope?
Why let a tantrum come and bloom and continue and die when it can be averted
by sweet and honest communication between people?
<< Let the tantrum take it's course and try and ignore the stares from
strangers as much as possible. >>
I think, when I'm in a store, that the other people have the particular right
to shop in peace. I have read baffling advice from homeschooling moms (and
some others) who are basically saying "to hell with other people; live your
life with your child as though other people don't exist."
I try to be considerate of everyone--strangers, waiters, store personnel, my
children--and the kids pick it up. If in the course of being cold to your
children you are also cold and cruel to strangers, who learns what??
<<I don't believe in giving rewards for good behavior. Good behavior
should be expected. >>
When my husband does something really sweet I tell him so. I smile and hug
him and brag him up to my friends and tell him a few hours later or the next
day or week or years later what a cool thing it was that he did whatever it
was for me. I thanked him the other day for the fine genetic contribution to
the kids. He said he never expected to be thanked for that so long after the
fact.
Is that rewarding good behavior? I hope so. I would hate to just expect
good behavior from my husband and for him to have to learn not to expect
positive feedback or reward of any sort, just a flat "no" when I don't want
to do something with or for him.
Except in the few obvious ways, I don't treat my children in a lesser way
than I treat my husband. It has been crucial to our interactions as an
unschooling family that the kids were people first, and kids only incidently
and temporarily.
Sandra
Carol Narigon
It's always the best mothers who are hardest on themselves. The mothers who are slapping their kids in K-Mart do not go home and cry their anguish out over being crappy moms. They think they're good moms and their little brats get what they deserve. After all, their parents spanked them and they turned out OK, right? Right?
Stop kicking yourself for not being perfect. Once things calm down and you're able to do so, you can say to your kids, "I'm sorry I lost my temper like that. I felt really stressed about what was going on, but that's not the way I want to react. I'm going to work on it. Maybe we can work on our temper tantrums together."
There aren't many of us who haven't been there, but if you met most of us in real life, you'd think we were good moms. You are too.
Carol Narigon, Editor
Home Education Magazine's Online News
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/wlcm_hemnewsltr.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stop kicking yourself for not being perfect. Once things calm down and you're able to do so, you can say to your kids, "I'm sorry I lost my temper like that. I felt really stressed about what was going on, but that's not the way I want to react. I'm going to work on it. Maybe we can work on our temper tantrums together."
There aren't many of us who haven't been there, but if you met most of us in real life, you'd think we were good moms. You are too.
Carol Narigon, Editor
Home Education Magazine's Online News
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/wlcm_hemnewsltr.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< My ideas on this are heavily influenced by Alfie Kohn, the author of
"Punished by Rewards". >>
How do his theories translate from school to homeschooling? Well?
I wonder how he is with his wife, his mom, his kids. I wonder if he ever
appreciates being thanked for gifts or whatever.
When he speaks at conferences, or gets fan mail, I wonder if he considers
that punishment.
Sandra
"Punished by Rewards". >>
How do his theories translate from school to homeschooling? Well?
I wonder how he is with his wife, his mom, his kids. I wonder if he ever
appreciates being thanked for gifts or whatever.
When he speaks at conferences, or gets fan mail, I wonder if he considers
that punishment.
Sandra
[email protected]
On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:52:04 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
from the same that is intended to manipulate behavior. I cringe every
time I hear a parent drone "Thanks you for obeying the first time" to a
kid, or something similar - that's not an honest expression of thanks,
that's intended to mold their behavior. Cacie made dinner to night for
all of us (well, my dad and me, my mom is sticking to Ensure lately) and
we thanked her profusely - it was a lovely dinner, something she's never
done before - she usually sticks to desserts. Maybe she'll do it again -
after the success of tonight's dinner she was offering to cook every
night - but maybe she won't, and I didn't intend my thanking her to lead
to an encore performance - I just appreciated it.
I will sometimes offer her something in exchange for doing something she
doesn't like, usually it's something like, "If you come to the post
office with me, we could stop at the coffee place on the way home for a
drink" or whatever. I think I'd do the same for a friend who was doing
me a favor. I'm probably less likely to do it when it's just some
necessary chore, like the grocery store, but she can stay home alone now
for that anyway.
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> How do his theories translate from school to homeschooling? Well?ever
> I wonder how he is with his wife, his mom, his kids. I wonder if he
> appreciates being thanked for gifts or whatever.I think praise ofr thanks or whatever that is honest is very different
from the same that is intended to manipulate behavior. I cringe every
time I hear a parent drone "Thanks you for obeying the first time" to a
kid, or something similar - that's not an honest expression of thanks,
that's intended to mold their behavior. Cacie made dinner to night for
all of us (well, my dad and me, my mom is sticking to Ensure lately) and
we thanked her profusely - it was a lovely dinner, something she's never
done before - she usually sticks to desserts. Maybe she'll do it again -
after the success of tonight's dinner she was offering to cook every
night - but maybe she won't, and I didn't intend my thanking her to lead
to an encore performance - I just appreciated it.
I will sometimes offer her something in exchange for doing something she
doesn't like, usually it's something like, "If you come to the post
office with me, we could stop at the coffee place on the way home for a
drink" or whatever. I think I'd do the same for a friend who was doing
me a favor. I'm probably less likely to do it when it's just some
necessary chore, like the grocery store, but she can stay home alone now
for that anyway.
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Diane
I got the idea, reading that book, that the "rewards" that one was punished
by were the carrots dangled out in front, especially if they could later be
snatched away. He mentions somewhere in there, unless I'm mistaken, that good
things that follow action unpromised and unanticipated, do not "punish."
:-) Diane
SandraDodd@... wrote:
by were the carrots dangled out in front, especially if they could later be
snatched away. He mentions somewhere in there, unless I'm mistaken, that good
things that follow action unpromised and unanticipated, do not "punish."
:-) Diane
SandraDodd@... wrote:
> << My ideas on this are heavily influenced by Alfie Kohn, the author of
>
> "Punished by Rewards". >>
>
> How do his theories translate from school to homeschooling? Well?
>
> I wonder how he is with his wife, his mom, his kids. I wonder if he ever
> appreciates being thanked for gifts or whatever.
>
> When he speaks at conferences, or gets fan mail, I wonder if he considers
> that punishment.
>
> Sandra
Diane Kallas
I got a catalog (actually, I got about a million catalogs in the last
month, but let's not quibble) for all kinds of neato gadgets including the
Sony Voice to Print recorder. This gadget allows *professionals* to record
up to 2.5 hours of talking and then download the message onto their PC into
print.
Well my son (12 years) is a *professional* non-speller, non-handwriter.
Seems like a brilliant way to let him compose text without the pain of the
reluctant secretary (me). Of course, I have anxiety that with this
*crutch* he'll NEVER learn how to spell or write (will these be archaic
tasks soon?) (Currently his spelling skills are limited to the occasional
3-letter word. I'm not talking about wanting to discover a latent talent
for spelling bees, I just want him to be able to type "video game" on the
search for line in Google without his mother some day.)
So what do you all think? Should I spring for the gadget (a mere $179) and
unleash his creativity or should I hold his feet to the fire of
incompetence and make him learn how to spell with say, nightly workbook
pages and M&M rewards. Let's vote.
Anyone ever use this Sony thing? I'd be curious about how easy it is to
use. I mean, does IT know how to spell?
Diane
month, but let's not quibble) for all kinds of neato gadgets including the
Sony Voice to Print recorder. This gadget allows *professionals* to record
up to 2.5 hours of talking and then download the message onto their PC into
print.
Well my son (12 years) is a *professional* non-speller, non-handwriter.
Seems like a brilliant way to let him compose text without the pain of the
reluctant secretary (me). Of course, I have anxiety that with this
*crutch* he'll NEVER learn how to spell or write (will these be archaic
tasks soon?) (Currently his spelling skills are limited to the occasional
3-letter word. I'm not talking about wanting to discover a latent talent
for spelling bees, I just want him to be able to type "video game" on the
search for line in Google without his mother some day.)
So what do you all think? Should I spring for the gadget (a mere $179) and
unleash his creativity or should I hold his feet to the fire of
incompetence and make him learn how to spell with say, nightly workbook
pages and M&M rewards. Let's vote.
Anyone ever use this Sony thing? I'd be curious about how easy it is to
use. I mean, does IT know how to spell?
Diane
groundhoggirl
On Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 10:46 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
It definitely works for my kids. As I stated before - sometimes I'm
able to buy them something and other times I am not. 50% of the time I
can and 50% of the time I can't.
When I have to say "no", usually, about 90% of the time, it's no big
deal and they understand. When I say "no". That isn't all I say. I
always explain why and I tell them "maybe next time" or "maybe Papa will
buy it for you". They usually understand. But, there's still that 10%
of the time, however, where they are really disappointed I won't get
them something and they'll get upset. It's usually Leroy. He'll get
really mad and start crying. I hate to see it and it upsets me, but I
honestly don't know what to do about it except try and give him a hug
and comfort him (if he lets me). Why isn't it all right for my son to
show his feelings in this way? What am I to do about it in this
particular situation? Yes, modelling absolutely works, but there are
still times when Leroy's feelings overtake him and I don't see anything
wrong with him showing them.
=====================================================================
I believe I give my children a large range of acceptable behavior.
Larger, in fact, than too many people will not accept.
=================================================================
In our case, believe me, my boys KNOW that, eventually, they get almost
everything they want. We love to make them happy and I think that is a
good thing.
to them. I always explain in a very calm and "sweet" way why I can't
and I tell them that we'll probably be able to get it another time.
And, we usually do. This usually works almost all of the time, but,
like I said before, once in a great while, it just doesn't work and
Leroy gets upset. We're very big into hugs, but when Leroy is angry,
nothing will calm him.
===================================================================
I think, when I'm in a store with my children, that the other people
should respect the fact that children can get upset at times and that
they can not control their behavior as well as adults. Adults should
show more patience toward children than to other adults. Do you think
that a 6 or 7 year-old can control his feelings as well as an adult?
Mine don't always do and, on the whole, they behave quite well. I think
adults should give children some slack.
====================================================================
good modeling. Part of the reason for this modeling is so that he will
be accepted in society. But, what you quoted above is exactly how I
feel on those rare occasions when he is upset. I feel I must have this
attitude or else I may feel like I must punish Leroy for showing his
feelings.
==================================================================
=================================================================
a trip to Walmart. I personally don't think it's a good idea to say
something like "if you stop crying, we'll go to the playground later" or
"if you behave, we'll go see a movie on Wednesday". I would like my
boys to behave in the manner they wish to behave, not for a reward or
just to please me.
I do compliment them on their behavior quite often, but certainly not
every single time we go to the store. I don't happen to believe that
children need a compliment for every single thing they do. Once in a
while for ordinary things is great and always when there is something
exceptional. My compliments are always very sincere and they mean
something. They know I appreciate and love them. I tell and show them
this all the time. We are very close and they know I respect them.
====================================================================
respect the fact that young children have feelings and that they should
be allowed to show them when they just can't contain themselves. Do you
think that respecting the fact that YOUNG children do not have as much
self-control as adults is in some way treating them with less respect
than one treats an adult?
Mimi
> Comments on comments...I totally agree. Modelling is the best teacher, especially over time.
>
> << just keep trying your best to hold your
>
> temper. Remember, they are only children. They can only express their
>
> feelings in certain ways. >>
>
> If better ways are modelled for them, they have more and better choices,
> though. To say "They're just kids" is true, but kids are bright, and
> they
> aren't acting in a vacuum.
> =================================================================
It definitely works for my kids. As I stated before - sometimes I'm
able to buy them something and other times I am not. 50% of the time I
can and 50% of the time I can't.
When I have to say "no", usually, about 90% of the time, it's no big
deal and they understand. When I say "no". That isn't all I say. I
always explain why and I tell them "maybe next time" or "maybe Papa will
buy it for you". They usually understand. But, there's still that 10%
of the time, however, where they are really disappointed I won't get
them something and they'll get upset. It's usually Leroy. He'll get
really mad and start crying. I hate to see it and it upsets me, but I
honestly don't know what to do about it except try and give him a hug
and comfort him (if he lets me). Why isn't it all right for my son to
show his feelings in this way? What am I to do about it in this
particular situation? Yes, modelling absolutely works, but there are
still times when Leroy's feelings overtake him and I don't see anything
wrong with him showing them.
> =================================================================Thank you for this suggestion. I will DEFINITELY try that.
>
> The best trick I know is to give yourself two choices, for starters. If
> you've been thinking "All I can do is X," next time give yourself X
> and Y
> (another, better choice). If Y works for you, afterward think of
> something
> that might have worked even better. Next time, don't make old,
> inferior X a
> choice--choose between Y and Z. Soon you'll have more than two tried
> and
> true choices.
> =================================================================
>
=====================================================================
> Many,==================================================================
> unfortunately, give children a slim range of "acceptable" and
> themselves a
> HUGE range.
I believe I give my children a large range of acceptable behavior.
Larger, in fact, than too many people will not accept.
=================================================================
>==================================================================
> <<In my opinion, I think it would be best, at this point, to absolutely
>
> refuse to buy the toy, or whatever it is, and stand your ground. >>
>
> I don't think that's better than "maybe later."
> Why insult a child and destroy hope?
In our case, believe me, my boys KNOW that, eventually, they get almost
everything they want. We love to make them happy and I think that is a
good thing.
> =================================================================Please don't think that all I say is "NO" and I walk away with my backs
> Why let a tantrum come and bloom and continue and die when it can be
> averted
> by sweet and honest communication between people?
> =================================================================
to them. I always explain in a very calm and "sweet" way why I can't
and I tell them that we'll probably be able to get it another time.
And, we usually do. This usually works almost all of the time, but,
like I said before, once in a great while, it just doesn't work and
Leroy gets upset. We're very big into hugs, but when Leroy is angry,
nothing will calm him.
===================================================================
> << Let the tantrum take it's course and try and ignore the stares from====================================================================
>
> strangers as much as possible. >>
>
> I think, when I'm in a store, that the other people have the particular
> right
> to shop in peace.
I think, when I'm in a store with my children, that the other people
should respect the fact that children can get upset at times and that
they can not control their behavior as well as adults. Adults should
show more patience toward children than to other adults. Do you think
that a 6 or 7 year-old can control his feelings as well as an adult?
Mine don't always do and, on the whole, they behave quite well. I think
adults should give children some slack.
====================================================================
> I have read baffling advice from homeschooling moms (andOn the whole, Leroy is very sweet and pleasant to be around - he's had
> some others) who are basically saying "to hell with other people; live
> your
> life with your child as though other people don't exist."
> ==================================================================
good modeling. Part of the reason for this modeling is so that he will
be accepted in society. But, what you quoted above is exactly how I
feel on those rare occasions when he is upset. I feel I must have this
attitude or else I may feel like I must punish Leroy for showing his
feelings.
==================================================================
> I try to be considerate of everyone--strangers, waiters, storeDo you think I am cold to my children?
> personnel, my
> children--and the kids pick it up. If in the course of being cold to
> your
> children you are also cold and cruel to strangers, who learns what??
> ================================================================
=================================================================
> <<I don't believe in giving rewards for good behavior. Good behaviorYou are talking about something totally different. We are talking about
>
> should be expected. >>
>
> When my husband does something really sweet I tell him so. I smile and
> hug
> him and brag him up to my friends and tell him a few hours later or the
> next
> day or week or years later what a cool thing it was that he did
> whatever it
> was for me. I thanked him the other day for the fine genetic
> contribution to
> the kids. He said he never expected to be thanked for that so long
> after the
> fact.
>
> Is that rewarding good behavior? I hope so. I would hate to just
> expect
> good behavior from my husband and for him to have to learn not to expect
> positive feedback or reward of any sort, just a flat "no" when I don't
> want
> to do something with or for him.
> ================================================================
a trip to Walmart. I personally don't think it's a good idea to say
something like "if you stop crying, we'll go to the playground later" or
"if you behave, we'll go see a movie on Wednesday". I would like my
boys to behave in the manner they wish to behave, not for a reward or
just to please me.
I do compliment them on their behavior quite often, but certainly not
every single time we go to the store. I don't happen to believe that
children need a compliment for every single thing they do. Once in a
while for ordinary things is great and always when there is something
exceptional. My compliments are always very sincere and they mean
something. They know I appreciate and love them. I tell and show them
this all the time. We are very close and they know I respect them.
====================================================================
> Except in the few obvious ways, I don't treat my children in a lesserI totally agree. I treat my children and my husband equally. I also
> way
> than I treat my husband. It has been crucial to our interactions as an
> unschooling family that the kids were people first, and kids only
> incidently
> and temporarily.
> Sandra
> ================================================================
respect the fact that young children have feelings and that they should
be allowed to show them when they just can't contain themselves. Do you
think that respecting the fact that YOUNG children do not have as much
self-control as adults is in some way treating them with less respect
than one treats an adult?
Mimi
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Pam Hartley
***I think, when I'm in a store with my children, that the other people
should respect the fact that children can get upset at times and that
they can not control their behavior as well as adults. Adults should
show more patience toward children than to other adults.***
I don't think adults who are not responsible for bringing a particular short
person into this world should have to show more than fleeting patience with
said short person causing a scene. It happens, but the adult(s) who have
jurisdiction over the short person should see that such scene ceases and
desists with all good speed (by calming the child or removing the child).
"The general public" out behaving themselves at Target have more right to a
peaceful setting than my child does to yell the house down, or than I do to
not stop same as quickly as I reasonably can, even if it means cutting my
trip short and coming back later.
***I personally don't think it's a good idea to say
something like "if you stop crying, we'll go to the playground later" or
"if you behave, we'll go see a movie on Wednesday".***
I don't think anyone suggested this kind of "in the midst of the crisis"
scenario. What I suggested was a reasonable (to me) trade of activities or
favors, "I need to go the post office and I know that's boring, so how about
after we stop at the park?" This conversation might happen before or during
the trip to the post office, but wouldn't be taking place in time of child
melt-down -- not because I find it morally objectionable, but because I
don't think it's the most useful thing to do. When my children are upset
they get my time and attention while we try to sort things out. I don't
start tap dancing and offering what's behind door #3. :)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
should respect the fact that children can get upset at times and that
they can not control their behavior as well as adults. Adults should
show more patience toward children than to other adults.***
I don't think adults who are not responsible for bringing a particular short
person into this world should have to show more than fleeting patience with
said short person causing a scene. It happens, but the adult(s) who have
jurisdiction over the short person should see that such scene ceases and
desists with all good speed (by calming the child or removing the child).
"The general public" out behaving themselves at Target have more right to a
peaceful setting than my child does to yell the house down, or than I do to
not stop same as quickly as I reasonably can, even if it means cutting my
trip short and coming back later.
***I personally don't think it's a good idea to say
something like "if you stop crying, we'll go to the playground later" or
"if you behave, we'll go see a movie on Wednesday".***
I don't think anyone suggested this kind of "in the midst of the crisis"
scenario. What I suggested was a reasonable (to me) trade of activities or
favors, "I need to go the post office and I know that's boring, so how about
after we stop at the park?" This conversation might happen before or during
the trip to the post office, but wouldn't be taking place in time of child
melt-down -- not because I find it morally objectionable, but because I
don't think it's the most useful thing to do. When my children are upset
they get my time and attention while we try to sort things out. I don't
start tap dancing and offering what's behind door #3. :)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
LOL! You don't necessarily need a $179 gadget. I'm pretty sure
voice-recognition software can be had cheaper than that these days (unless
he really needs/wants it for "on the go" and not just in front of the
computer).
I don't think calculators keep people from learning to add 7 + 8. I don't
think voice activation software will make a child unable to spell
(especially since I believe good spellers are partly born and partly trained
from reading words spelled correctly).
So now that you won't need those M&Ms as rewards, you can mail them to me.
There, everyone's happy. ;)
Pam
----------
From: Diane Kallas <dkallas@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Should Technology Save Us?
Date: Sat, Dec 8, 2001, 10:23 PM
So what do you all think? Should I spring for the gadget (a mere $179) and
unleash his creativity or should I hold his feet to the fire of
incompetence and make him learn how to spell with say, nightly workbook
pages and M&M rewards. Let's vote.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
voice-recognition software can be had cheaper than that these days (unless
he really needs/wants it for "on the go" and not just in front of the
computer).
I don't think calculators keep people from learning to add 7 + 8. I don't
think voice activation software will make a child unable to spell
(especially since I believe good spellers are partly born and partly trained
from reading words spelled correctly).
So now that you won't need those M&Ms as rewards, you can mail them to me.
There, everyone's happy. ;)
Pam
----------
From: Diane Kallas <dkallas@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Should Technology Save Us?
Date: Sat, Dec 8, 2001, 10:23 PM
So what do you all think? Should I spring for the gadget (a mere $179) and
unleash his creativity or should I hold his feet to the fire of
incompetence and make him learn how to spell with say, nightly workbook
pages and M&M rewards. Let's vote.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
groundhoggirl
On Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 11:31 PM, freeform@... wrote:
I totally agree. A thank you should be sincere.
=================================================================
is totally different from trying to manipulate a child's behavior by
offering a reward.
>===============================================================
>
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:52:04 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
> > How do his theories translate from school to homeschooling? Well?
> > I wonder how he is with his wife, his mom, his kids. I wonder if he
> ever
> > appreciates being thanked for gifts or whatever.
>
> I think praise ofr thanks or whatever that is honest is very different
> from the same that is intended to manipulate behavior. I cringe every
> time I hear a parent drone "Thanks you for obeying the first time" to a
> kid, or something similar - that's not an honest expression of thanks,
> that's intended to mold their behavior.
I totally agree. A thank you should be sincere.
=================================================================
> Cacie made dinner to night forYes. I'll do similar things with my boys, but what we are talking about
> all of us (well, my dad and me, my mom is sticking to Ensure lately) and
> we thanked her profusely - it was a lovely dinner, something she's never
> done before - she usually sticks to desserts. Maybe she'll do it again -
> after the success of tonight's dinner she was offering to cook every
> night - but maybe she won't, and I didn't intend my thanking her to lead
> to an encore performance - I just appreciated it.
>
> I will sometimes offer her something in exchange for doing something she
> doesn't like, usually it's something like, "If you come to the post
> office with me, we could stop at the coffee place on the way home for a
> drink" or whatever. I think I'd do the same for a friend who was doing
> me a favor.
> Dar
> _==================================================================
is totally different from trying to manipulate a child's behavior by
offering a reward.
> Mimi[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> _______________________________________________________________
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groundhoggirl
On Sunday, December 9, 2001, at 12:56 AM, Pam Hartley wrote:
I believe someone did. This is what I understood. And that is what I
was objecting to.
=================================================================
>====================================================================
>
>
> ***I personally don't think it's a good idea to say
> something like "if you stop crying, we'll go to the playground later" or
> "if you behave, we'll go see a movie on Wednesday".***
>
> I don't think anyone suggested this kind of "in the midst of the crisis"
> scenario.
I believe someone did. This is what I understood. And that is what I
was objecting to.
=================================================================
> What I suggested was a reasonable (to me) trade of activities or=================================================================
> favors, "I need to go the post office and I know that's boring, so how
> about
> after we stop at the park?" This conversation might happen before or
> during
> the trip to the post office,
> I do that all the time with my kids. I'm just totally againstMimi
> manipulating kids with bribes for good behavior. That's all I'm trying
> to say.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
groundhoggirl
On Saturday, December 8, 2001, at 11:38 PM, Diane wrote:
> I got the idea, reading that book, that the "rewards" that one wasMimi
> punished
> by were the carrots dangled out in front, especially if they could
> later be
> snatched away. He mentions somewhere in there, unless I'm mistaken,
> that good
> things that follow action unpromised and unanticipated, do not "punish."
>
> :-) Diane
>
> Yes, I agree. I do good things with my children and I give good things
> to my children, but not as a bribe to make them behave better at
> Walmart. I do them because I love them and they deserve all the
> happiness, acceptance and security I can give them.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2001 8:55:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
using positive and negative reinforcement in superficial ways and honestly
negotiating or honestly just giving a gift.
If I say to my kids, "I'm up against a scheduling deadline and really need to
spend an hour in the mall, shopping for a gift for somebody you don't even
know and I know it is not what you want to do for the next hour -- but if you
can bear with me, and go along and cooperate, I'll do something for you, too,
later. What might you like?" That's just playing fair - I just don't see it
as manipulating or bribing.
What Alfie Kohn opposes is positive or negative reinforcement as a way of
trying to "shape" behavior -- it isn't treating children respectfully, it is
"training" them - like an an animal. It works to an extent, of course, and
Alfie Kohn admits that it might be useful if ALL you care about is the
immediate results and not the long run consequences. He points out that there
are not-so-obvious messages that kids get when parents use behaviorist
techniques on them. When they get told they'll get a sticker for reading
every few pages of a book, they might think that means that the parent
doesn't think reading is inherently worthwhile or fun, for example. But I
really think that the greatest harm of such systems is that it dehumanizes
the child; it is disrespectful. This doesn't, to me, contradict telling other
people when they've done things you appreciate. I mean, Sandra telling her
husband that she's grateful for his genetic stock isn't her trying to "shape"
him into providing even more good genetic stock <G>. It is just niceness. It
is lubricant for ongoing good relationship. I don't think Alfie Kohn ever
meant that people should not comment on kids behavior - "Wow, that was a long
and pretty boring trip. You handled it really well. Thank you." Say it
because it is true and because it gives the child pleasure to hear it.
--pam
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I wonder if he everI think there is a big difference between trying to manipulate someone by
> appreciates being thanked for gifts or whatever.
using positive and negative reinforcement in superficial ways and honestly
negotiating or honestly just giving a gift.
If I say to my kids, "I'm up against a scheduling deadline and really need to
spend an hour in the mall, shopping for a gift for somebody you don't even
know and I know it is not what you want to do for the next hour -- but if you
can bear with me, and go along and cooperate, I'll do something for you, too,
later. What might you like?" That's just playing fair - I just don't see it
as manipulating or bribing.
What Alfie Kohn opposes is positive or negative reinforcement as a way of
trying to "shape" behavior -- it isn't treating children respectfully, it is
"training" them - like an an animal. It works to an extent, of course, and
Alfie Kohn admits that it might be useful if ALL you care about is the
immediate results and not the long run consequences. He points out that there
are not-so-obvious messages that kids get when parents use behaviorist
techniques on them. When they get told they'll get a sticker for reading
every few pages of a book, they might think that means that the parent
doesn't think reading is inherently worthwhile or fun, for example. But I
really think that the greatest harm of such systems is that it dehumanizes
the child; it is disrespectful. This doesn't, to me, contradict telling other
people when they've done things you appreciate. I mean, Sandra telling her
husband that she's grateful for his genetic stock isn't her trying to "shape"
him into providing even more good genetic stock <G>. It is just niceness. It
is lubricant for ongoing good relationship. I don't think Alfie Kohn ever
meant that people should not comment on kids behavior - "Wow, that was a long
and pretty boring trip. You handled it really well. Thank you." Say it
because it is true and because it gives the child pleasure to hear it.
--pam
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2001 9:19:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
good reminder for me and I suppose all of us that loose patience. It is a
choice. . . we can forgive ourselves, but we have to remember we are not
powerless in this situaiton, even though it may feel so. It also may be
helpful to explore (at some other time, not in the store) why those rageful
feelings come up. . . what is the lesson for us in this situation. . .what is
the universe trying to help us learn here.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> You can control yourself. You might not feel like you can, but you can,YES YES YES!!! This is so true. . .thank you for pointing this out. It is a
> because you do so in public. That means that yelling, etc. in private is a
> choice, not an act of God or nature. :) I don't say this to be snarky, but
> because I think it's really helpful to look at it that way -- I *CAN*
> control myself. It's my choice if I don't. If my child were a 31 year old
> Hell's Angel not related to me, I would not be shrieking at him right now.
>
good reminder for me and I suppose all of us that loose patience. It is a
choice. . . we can forgive ourselves, but we have to remember we are not
powerless in this situaiton, even though it may feel so. It also may be
helpful to explore (at some other time, not in the store) why those rageful
feelings come up. . . what is the lesson for us in this situation. . .what is
the universe trying to help us learn here.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2001 9:27:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kpgrew96@... writes:
bedtimes or things like that. Our children are free to choose bedtimes,
movies, dinners, etc. And this sets up this external reward system that is so
contrary to unschooling I think. . . I dont know. . . maybe others have
different insights on it.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kpgrew96@... writes:
> Maybe something like this could help? If he doesn't beg at the store, heI dont think this would work for us. . .because we dont set arbitrary
> can
> stay awake a little later on the weekend, like the big boy he's been
> behaving
> as? Or perhaps he could have a special dinner/movie on the weekend if
> he's
> controlled himself all week.
bedtimes or things like that. Our children are free to choose bedtimes,
movies, dinners, etc. And this sets up this external reward system that is so
contrary to unschooling I think. . . I dont know. . . maybe others have
different insights on it.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2001 11:16:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
groundhoggirl@... writes:
would certainly hate it if my "behaviour" was up there on the fridge for
everyone to see. . . how embarassing I think. I guess manipulation and
incentives, etc. is so ingrained in us and that is part of the deschooling
process we still go through. . . sigh. . . it is an ongoing process.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
groundhoggirl@... writes:
> . I find it manipulative and stay away from itThis is exactly what I was thinking. . . it sounds like school and grades. I
> as much as possible. This is one of the reasons I don't send my kids to
> school. Teachers are continually using positive and negative
> reinforcement. It is something they are taught to do.
>
would certainly hate it if my "behaviour" was up there on the fridge for
everyone to see. . . how embarassing I think. I guess manipulation and
incentives, etc. is so ingrained in us and that is part of the deschooling
process we still go through. . . sigh. . . it is an ongoing process.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2001 11:47:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
This is why I love to read your posts so much. . . ones like these that are
just absolute jewels! Thanks for starting this list!
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Except in the few obvious ways, I don't treat my children in a lesser wayDear dear Sandra,
> than I treat my husband. It has been crucial to our interactions as an
> unschooling family that the kids were people first, and kids only
> incidently
> and temporarily.
>
>
This is why I love to read your posts so much. . . ones like these that are
just absolute jewels! Thanks for starting this list!
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]