Mary Hickman

Hello,

Ever since I joined this list I've heard mention let the kids decide. Now,
I'm not sure I'm a wild unschooler. Maybe I would be more wild in the wild,
for now I'm living in suburbia. I do let the kiddos decide much of their
world. Mine are little, 7, 5, 2. I wish I had no TV. would be much easier.
I do find the kids need to have more interactive, real experiences and less
passive ones, so I limit their TV. I like my kids to find the resources
laying around. When they watch TV they forget to play. I really turned to
homeschooling to allow them unlimited play time, to be themselves in their
home. So, anyone want to talk about TV and unschooling again?

My little guy never gets enough TV. He would watch every movie every day
forever. He tantrums for the TV to be on longer all the time. The more he
watches the more he asks the more he wants.I also notice he has less ability
to contain his wilds after watching TV. His body needs to go. I wouldn't let
him eat all the sugar in the house either. I quess I'm not comfortable
letting him choose what is right for him yet. Maybe I will grow to see he
does have inner control. When it comes to TV and computer stuff, he will go
for ever.

Mary H.



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[email protected]

<< When it comes to TV and computer stuff, he will go
for ever. >>

This is an unfair statement. You've never given him "forever," so you don't
know.

You probably know families in which TV is very limited, and the children
always feel needy concerning TV.

If you go to www.unschooling.com you can read about lots of families who
don't limit it, whose kids turn it off (or don't turn it on for days).

<<I wouldn't let
him eat all the sugar in the house either. >>

If you let him try, he would not eat "all the sugar in the house." And if he
ate a lot for a day or two, he would get to the point that he was tired of
it, and no longer crave it as a forbidden substance, or feel deprived.

Your thinking on such matters seems to be either you yourself dole out and
control, or the children on their own will never come to a limit. "All in
the house," or "forever."

Sandra

Pam Hartley

***Ever since I joined this list I've heard mention let the kids decide.
Now,
I'm not sure I'm a wild unschooler. Maybe I would be more wild in the wild,
for now I'm living in suburbia.***

Hey, I live in suburbia, in a TOWNHOUSE in a COMMUTE town. I
out-tame-neighborhood anybody any day. <g> You can be a wild unschooler
anyplace (well, okay Sandra, not in Swiss Boarding School <g>).

*** I do let the kiddos decide much of their
world. Mine are little, 7, 5, 2. I wish I had no TV. would be much easier.
I do find the kids need to have more interactive, real experiences and less
passive ones, so I limit their TV.***

But below, your son is finding more tantrum, whining experiences by NOT
watching TV.

*** I like my kids to find the resources
laying around.***

What resources? The TV is just laying around (well, okay, you probably keep
it up on some kind of stand or shelf, but you get the point). Resources are
resources are resources. TV is no less valuable than a book. A book is no
more valuable than a jar of peanut butter and a piece of straw. A jar of
peanut butter and a piece of straw hold no more or less importance than a
sunbeam and a comfy couch. Unschooling is life.

*** When they watch TV they forget to play. I really turned to
homeschooling to allow them unlimited play time, to be themselves in their
home.***

Themselves in their own home want to watch more TV. They won't forget to
play if it's important to them.

*** So, anyone want to talk about TV and unschooling again?***

I *LOVE* talking about TV and unschooling. I even talk about it to
school-at-homers who HATE TV and would like me to agree with them for some
reason (well, I know the reason: the reason is that I tell people flat out
that my girls love TV and watch as much as they want and that tends to be a
lot by many if not most people's standards and yet, and YET -- pay
attention, here's the good part! -- they continue to walk upright, do not
drag their knuckles and don't even know how to belch yet! They are slender,
funny, bright, cheerful, thrifty, brave, kind, daring, and better than steak
sauce. People HATE that about them when I'm telling them that TV not only
didn't cause them to become sub-humanoids, it actually HELPS them because
it's what they choose and there's much to be learned from it. But not
necessarily more than from a piece of straw and a jar of peanut butter. Um,
I think this parentheses break needed it's own chapter. Sorry about that.)

***My little guy never gets enough TV. He would watch every movie every day
forever.***

He really, really, really wouldn't. Really. I can say this and I haven't
even met the lad. At some point, he would really need to go to the bathroom.
And even if he didn't, he wouldn't. Really.

*** He tantrums for the TV to be on longer all the time. The more he
watches the more he asks the more he wants.***

Put it on and let it stay on for a full year. No, two years. The reason he
cannot limit himself is because you're limiting him. There is no way for him
to find his natural patterns if you're there either demanding or cajoling
him away from the TV.

***I also notice he has less ability
to contain his wilds after watching TV. His body needs to go.***

Then let it go! After he watches TV if he's full of vim and vigor (I don't
even know what vim is, I remember the expression from somewhere and can only
hope it isn't x-rated. Nancy, help? <g>) design a mad relay race around the
house for everyone, including the dog, who'd like to participate. Then a
family jog to the local park. Then jumping jacks! You'll all be fit and trim
and he gets to watch his TV and de-pressurize after. Everyone wins!

*** I wouldn't let
him eat all the sugar in the house either.***

I also let my daughters eat all the sugar they want. People also hate THAT,
especially when my ridiculous healthy daughters race around and ask me in
the morning (with a large bowl of candy ALWAYS available) if I would please
make them a bagel. Seriously, people HATE that.

*** I quess I'm not comfortable
letting him choose what is right for him yet. Maybe I will grow to see he
does have inner control. When it comes to TV and computer stuff, he will go
for ever.***

No, again, he won't. It might feel like forever while you're adjusting your
prejudices, but it's not anywhere near forever.

Pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tara Maldonado Oster

This was one of my questions, also. I have a four-year-old. He didn't
begin watching TV until he was 2.5. My husband and I would rather do
other things. I read. He plays on the computer. Starting at 2, he
watched half an hour a day, if that. Now he watches 1 to 1 and a half
hours a day, if that. He doesn't watch everyday. When his time is over,
he turns off the TV. He chooses what he watches. He loves Redwall, but
doesn't like Anne of Green Gables, so if he wants to watch more on
Sunday morning, he puts a tape on. What I did was have guidelines. He
may have complained in the beginning. I don't remember it. He's a rather
rational guy.

From what I reading, (I'm so new to the unschooling concept) is that you
think your child should choose what he does, at every point? Is that
right?

I know that with our lifestyle there's lots more for Isey to do than
watch TV. So it's not something he wants to do all the time. By having
an enriched environment, he chooses other things. I get that. Okay now
to other things. Brushing his teeth. He has to do it. But won't unless I
remind him to. He'd leave his toys out all over, unless I remind him to.


Is part of the unschooling philosophy to not tell them to do anything? I
get that message from reading some of the posts. But I also read one of
Sandra's essays about Moving Water, where she asked her son to empty the
water gun. So, I'm not sure.

I'm really curious about this. And if it is part of the philosophy not
to tell Little Ones to brush their teeth, how do you deal with that
Dragon Breath? :)

Just plain curious,
Tara



-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Hickman [mailto:mfhick@...]
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 11:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] TV, Video and unschooling

Ever since I joined this list I've heard mention let the kids decide.
Now,
I'm not sure I'm a wild unschooler. Maybe I would be more wild in the
wild,
for now I'm living in suburbia. I do let the kiddos decide much of their

world. Mine are little, 7, 5, 2. I wish I had no TV. would be much
easier.
I do find the kids need to have more interactive, real experiences and
less
passive ones, so I limit their TV. I like my kids to find the resources
laying around. When they watch TV they forget to play. I really turned
to
homeschooling to allow them unlimited play time, to be themselves in
their
home. So, anyone want to talk about TV and unschooling again?

My little guy never gets enough TV. He would watch every movie every day

forever. He tantrums for the TV to be on longer all the time. The more
he
watches the more he asks the more he wants.I also notice he has less
ability
to contain his wilds after watching TV. His body needs to go. I wouldn't
let
him eat all the sugar in the house either. I quess I'm not comfortable
letting him choose what is right for him yet. Maybe I will grow to see
he
does have inner control. When it comes to TV and computer stuff, he will
go
for ever.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

***so if he wants to watch more on
Sunday morning, he puts a tape on. What I did was have guidelines. He
may have complained in the beginning. I don't remember it. He's a rather
rational guy. ***

Rational does not equal learning not to complain about other people
scheduling your time and activities, IMHO. Resigned, maybe.

***From what I reading, (I'm so new to the unschooling concept) is that you
think your child should choose what he does, at every point? Is that
right? ***

I think my daughters should choose how to spend their time, from the
activities and resources around us. This includes the television. It isn't
limited to the television. I trust (that's a key word, if I were teaching a
class right now I'd tell you it would be on the test <g>) that in the
process of spending their time as they wish, they will learn everything they
need to know to become normal, sane members of society. So far, so good.

***I know that with our lifestyle there's lots more for Isey to do than
watch TV. So it's not something he wants to do all the time. By having
an enriched environment, he chooses other things. I get that.***

What do you consider an enriched environment? You may just mean you have
plenty of craft supplies and a kite-making book, but the phrase sets off
educationese alarm bells in my head. Resources, as I think I may have
yammered on one post ago, are resources. A set of encyclopedias is not
inherently more educational than the cat or a pair of tennis shoes. And
definitely not more educational than the cat AND the tennis shoes together!
(feeble cat humor, my cat would be rolling his eyes if he could read this).

*** Okay now
to other things. Brushing his teeth. He has to do it. But won't unless I
remind him to. He'd leave his toys out all over, unless I remind him to.
Is part of the unschooling philosophy to not tell them to do anything?***

Some unschoolers are non-coercive parents and would not make their children
brush their teeth, but it's not an unschooling precept. My daughters are
required to brush their teeth or let me brush them, same with hair if they
want to keep it long and they do. They sometimes have to go places when
they'd prefer to stay home, if other arrangements can't be made (they're too
young currently to stay on their own). There are lots of other things that
they do naturally to be decent human beings, so I have no need to force them
-- please and thank you and not shrieking at each other and not kicking the
cat are natural, painless behaviors in our household.

Pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tara Maldonado Oster

Okay, as I sent my post in, two others came back with the answers to my
questions. Wow! I think that's all I can say. Your complete trust is
amazing. It's something I will strive for, like I strive for spiritual
enlightenment. I have *Major* issues with the TV. I grew up with the TV
as my parents. I didn't want to do anything but be in front of the TV.
It was my drug, until I discovered drugs and alcohol. So me and TV are
not good friends. I loved dancing when I was a kid. Loved this ballet
class I was taking. Then a cartoon I liked came on while ballet class
was in session. I quit ballet to watch that cartoon. It was all downhill
from there. I know that's my trip and my household is much more stable
and loving than what I was in, but I think it'll take years of therapy
to clear up my TV issues. (that's a joke)

Tara

-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Hartley [mailto:pamhartley@...]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 12:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV, Video and unschooling


I *LOVE* talking about TV and unschooling. I even talk about it to
school-at-homers who HATE TV and would like me to agree with them for
some
reason (well, I know the reason: the reason is that I tell people flat
out
that my girls love TV and watch as much as they want and that tends to
be a
lot by many if not most people's standards and yet, and YET -- pay
attention, here's the good part! -- they continue to walk upright, do
not
drag their knuckles and don't even know how to belch yet! They are
slender,
funny, bright, cheerful, thrifty, brave, kind, daring, and better than
steak
sauce. People HATE that about them when I'm telling them that TV not
only
didn't cause them to become sub-humanoids, it actually HELPS them
because
it's what they choose and there's much to be learned from it. But not
necessarily more than from a piece of straw and a jar of peanut butter.
Um,
I think this parentheses break needed it's own chapter. Sorry about
that.)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/02 12:04:23 AM, pamhartley@... writes:

<< I also let my daughters eat all the sugar they want. People also hate THAT,
especially when my ridiculous healthy daughters race around and ask me in
the morning (with a large bowl of candy ALWAYS available) if I would please
make them a bagel. Seriously, people HATE that.
>>

DOH!!!

Kirby wanted bagels.
I forgot to get bagels.

We have now ten on-sale boxes of breakfast cereal (we had four teenaged boys
here all weekend, and will have two or three in and out during the week), but
Kirby wanted bagels.

Tomorrow.

Last night I offered to take him and one of the others to the store to get
anything they wanted. They decided to just make the world's best peanut
butter sandwiches. We had a new container of Peter Pan smooth. They
ceremoniously opened and inhaled the brand-new smell, and Kirby made two
sandwiches with that, cream cheese, and a little home-made honey jar that had
to opened with a corkscrew (had been sealed with cork and wax).

Given a choice between anything at a grocery store half a mile a way and
peanut butter sandwiches made by kids, they chose peanut butter.

This would never have come about without the freedom to choose. Real freedom
and real choices.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/02 12:07:57 AM, tjmaldo@... writes:

<<
Is part of the unschooling philosophy to not tell them to do anything? >>

No, for me it's more...
Not to be arbitrary.
Not to be thoughtless.

We discuss what and why, and discuss until there's agreement. Because we
respect each other, we all get our way a lot.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/02 12:24:25 AM, tjmaldo@... writes:

<< I loved dancing when I was a kid. Loved this ballet
class I was taking. Then a cartoon I liked came on while ballet class
was in session. I quit ballet to watch that cartoon. >>

I quit piano lessons to watch Wagon Train, when I was six. But I didn't love
the lessons as much as I loved hearing my parents be proud, and loved hearing
my parents say I loved the lessons. And I still play piano for fun and for
purposes--learning tunes, goofing, playing around, "demonstrating musical
principles" (answering Holly's questions like "What is an octave again?").

But NOW there are VCRs and kids' favorite shows can be taped for later
viewing!
Now kids can watch a show that's on at the same time as piano or ballet, so
that old problem is moot. NOW kids will not have the TV to blame if they
want to quit a class.

Classes can be picked up again later. I took piano lessons later, when I was
12 or so and following. I missed Gilligan's Island re-runs to do it, too.

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

on 1/27/02 11:03 PM, Pam Hartley at pamhartley@... wrote:

> After he watches TV if he's full of vim and vigor (I don't
> even know what vim is, I remember the expression from somewhere and can only
> hope it isn't x-rated. Nancy, help? <g>)

Vim and vigor are synonyms, meaning vitality. As far as I know, vim is not
x-rated, though all three attributes would be welcome in the bedroom. You
may have been looking for the phrase "spit and vinegar," however; neither of
which are welcome in my bedroom, though I can't speak for everyone.

Nancy

Pam Hartley

How in the world do you keep spit out of your mouth, much less the bedroom?

Vinegar, now, that just sounds painful.

Pam, permanently full of vim, vigor and vitality. Drives people nuts.

----------
From: Nancy Wooton <Felicitas@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV, Video and unschooling
Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002, 11:42 PM


Vim and vigor are synonyms, meaning vitality. As far as I know, vim is not
x-rated, though all three attributes would be welcome in the bedroom. You
may have been looking for the phrase "spit and vinegar," however; neither of
which are welcome in my bedroom, though I can't speak for everyone.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tara Maldonado Oster

-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 12:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV, Video and unschooling

Classes can be picked up again later. I took piano lessons later, when
I was
12 or so and following. I missed Gilligan's Island re-runs to do it,
too.

Sandra

Yes, Sandra, they can. It's my big gift to myself this year, to take
some sort of dance class. Been telling all the moms at homeschool
meetings that I'm gonna do it. Now I gotta get off my duff and do it. I
can't blame TV now. DAMN! It's all on my shoulders. The pressure. (said
jokingly)

Tara



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tara Maldonado Oster

-----Original Message-----
From: Pam Hartley [mailto:pamhartley@...]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 12:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV, Video and unschooling


What do you consider an enriched environment?

I mean parents who love him and have created a lifestyle where we are
both around A LOT, where we live without so that he can have us around
to read to him whenever he wants, listen to him play the violin, play in
the mud (there is a complete tunnel system in my backyard he and dh
designed), go to the library, create all things Lego, create blanket
playhouses, cast runes, clean the pool, talk about the seasons, follow
his lead, do fun things. Enriched to me means a house full of love.

You may just mean you have
plenty of craft supplies and a kite-making book, but the phrase sets off
educationese alarm bells in my head. Resources, as I think I may have
yammered on one post ago, are resources. A set of encyclopedias is not
inherently more educational than the cat or a pair of tennis shoes. And
definitely not more educational than the cat AND the tennis shoes
together!
(feeble cat humor, my cat would be rolling his eyes if he could read
this).

Tennis shoes can be entertaining and educational. I remember when Isey
played with his shoes for hours on end, also his clothes. He wanted to
learn to do it, so he just sat and did it. Ne'er a frustrated bone in
his body. Pure bliss.

Tara


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tara Maldonado Oster

Arbitrary and thoughtless, I'm not. We discuss a lot, too. As a matter
of fact, that's why TV time went up from nothing to what it is now. He
wanted more. We discussed it. At this point, that's what we're both
comfortable with.

Tara

-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 12:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] TV, Video and unschooling

No, for me it's more...
Not to be arbitrary.
Not to be thoughtless.

We discuss what and why, and discuss until there's agreement. Because
we
respect each other, we all get our way a lot.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Pam said:
And
definitely not more educational than the cat AND the tennis shoes together!
(feeble cat humor, my cat would be rolling his eyes if he could read this).

Me:
This isn't the cat that taught himself to pee in the toilet by watching is
it? It just may read then!
Elissa, who will soon be singing
Yippee - Kai - Yay!

Ariadna Solovyova

Yes, it's a lot easier to not have a TV or sugar in the house. Works for
us. A lot less tooth decay, too.
Ari


On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, Mary Hickman wrote:

> Hello,
...
>
> My little guy never gets enough TV. He would watch every movie every day
> forever. He tantrums for the TV to be on longer all the time. The more he
> watches the more he asks the more he wants.I also notice he has less ability
> to contain his wilds after watching TV. His body needs to go. I wouldn't let
> him eat all the sugar in the house either. I quess I'm not comfortable
> letting him choose what is right for him yet. Maybe I will grow to see he
...

zenmomma *

>>You may have been looking for the phrase "spit and vinegar," however;
>>neither of which are welcome in my bedroom, though I can't speak for
>>everyone.>>

That would give new meaning to the phrase "sour puss" though, wouldn't it?

~Mary


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Peggy

But it doesn't "solve" the problem. What happens with kids who are not
exposed it they have a tendency to "go crazy" over sugar or tv when over
at their friends houses. They aren't developing the skills necessary for
self regulation.

We had tooth decay on breastmilk. The biggest single factor for healthy
teeth is hereditary.

Peggy


Ariadna Solovyova wrote:
>
> Yes, it's a lot easier to not have a TV or sugar in the house. Works for
> us. A lot less tooth decay, too.
> Ari
>
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, Mary Hickman wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> ...
> >
> > My little guy never gets enough TV. He would watch every movie every day
> > forever. He tantrums for the TV to be on longer all the time. The more he
> > watches the more he asks the more he wants.I also notice he has less ability
> > to contain his wilds after watching TV. His body needs to go. I wouldn't let
> > him eat all the sugar in the house either. I quess I'm not comfortable
> > letting him choose what is right for him yet. Maybe I will grow to see he
> ...
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/02 9:32:48 AM, ari@... writes:

<< Yes, it's a lot easier to not have a TV or sugar in the house. Works for
us. A lot less tooth decay, too. >>

Well. We have a tv -- which is used generally for three things. PlayStation
2 games. DVDs. Discover channel shows -- sometimes TLC and Animal Planet.
They could watch other shows...they used to watch a lot of Disney cartoons --
that phase seems to be over.

We have a bowl of Dove Dark Chocolate squares available at all times, for
anyone. I consider it essential to sane living, personally. Christmas candy
is still sitting on the family room table -- I'll probably toss it today.
There's ice cream in the freezer, should anyone be so inclined. It's not a
big deal. The kids have learned they feel better if they balance sugar
intake with protein, so they generally do. I nudged them into being aware of
their reactions so they could assess them. And they don't get cavities. But
I don't think that unlimited sugar necessarily prevents cavities. I think
they have good teeth/bacteria resisting genes.

I don't limit tv, or computer, or modeling clay, or reading, or Dungeons and
Dragons, or hot dogs per se -- I DO nudge my kids if I see they're starting
to get bleary or short with themselves and each other, in that moment, so
they can recognize symptoms and start to handle it on their own. Nick can
spend all day on the computer -- he can also spend a day broken up into lots
of different activities.

I also nudge them in terms of specific ideas. We talk a lot. I lead here
and there. They lead here and there. They take flute and piano lessons.
The deal is that if I pay for lessons, they practice and work with their
teachers. They play spontaneously during the day most days -- but some days
life gets busy and I nudge them about practicing as per our deal. They're
free to discontinue lessons at any time. They are happy with their ability
and progress -- excited about playing duets together.

I nudge. I go on instinct with what my kids need from me. There was a time,
in our deschooling period (Nick went to private school through grade 2) --
when I didn't say word one to him about what he "should" do. And he spent a
long time in front of the TV. It was a year and a half before he picked up a
pencil to write or draw. At the moment, Nick appreciates nudging with
geometry -- he's using the Key-to series and is feeling good about his
progress.

What I've found is that while many theories on living and raising kids have
interesting elements, and unschooling in particular changed important and
basic things for us, I know my kids better than the purveyors of any theory.
I learned to trust myself as a parent. I look at how they're doing -- are
they happy? Are they able to function at home and in the outside world? Are
they healthy? Are they learning about themselves and their world? I make
adjustments as they go through phases -- I watch, I listen, I learn. We talk
about what we do and why we make the choices we do, mistakes we make, what
seems to be working for us as individuals and as a family -- and what
doesn't.

I don't assert there is one way which will work for all children. I share my
experience with my kids -- what has worked for us and is working for us.
Data points for consideration, not outlines for living.

Sharon

Ariadna Solovyova

Whenever this topic comes up on unschooling boards, I feel sad and lonely.
I always thought that TV was the major tool of institutional mind control
(no, really! :-) ) and that people who unschool are more likely to wean
themselves from it. Doesn't seem to be the case. Does anyone here NOT have
a TV?

Also, maybe more important, I find TV ugly. Most of the stuff shown is
esthetically offensive. Does anyone else think that? Sandra recently said
something to the effect that she's allergic to bullshit. Well, I'm
allergic to ugliness, and I try not to keep ugly things around.

Everybody has a sense of taste that they use to select books to read,
music to listen to, videos to watch, computer games to play, food to eat
-- and thereby, shape their children's environment and control (horrors!
:-) ) their choices. To some extent. Of course, children will choose
things on their own too. But if you talk about your tastes and values to
your children and around them, they are likely to accept them as their
own; at least, those of them that you're most passionate about.

And it's harder to be passionate about not watching too much TV (what's
too much, anyway?) than not watching any at all, in my opinion.

Ari

Earth Witch

> From what I reading, (I'm so new to the unschooling
> concept) is that you
> think your child should choose what he does, at
> every point? Is that
> right?
>

Sort of. I don't let my children do dangerous things,
like run into a busy street. Sometimes they have to
do things they do not want to, like run an errand, but
their opinion is considered.

> Brushing his teeth. He has to do
> it. But won't unless I
> remind him to. He'd leave his toys out all over,
> unless I remind him to.
>

My kids see me brush my teeth every day. I will tell
them if they have bad breath or if their teeth look
grimy. They choose to brush them. Some days they
don't want to, and that is okay, but I will make
suggestions.
As for the toys, if my boys don't pick them up, I do.
They don't like how I do it, so they are pretty good
at picking them up. I don't mind some toys laying
around. They don't have to clean their rooms, that is
their space. Of course, stepping on a lego or
hotwheel usually motivates them!

>
> Is part of the unschooling philosophy to not tell
> them to do anything?

To me, it is to let them decide when you can. I will
tell them what to do when it involves their safety. I
make suggestions about hygiene, although I rarely feel
the need to. If they are hurting each other or
fighting, I will separate them and encourage them to
talk about what caused it. Most things can be handled
with asking or suggesting if parents feel they need to
intervene.



>
> I'm really curious about this. And if it is part of
> the philosophy not
> to tell Little Ones to brush their teeth, how do you
> deal with that
> Dragon Breath? :)

Breath mints? That toothpaste gum? Most people, kids
included, would probably get sick of their mouth
feeling dirty and eventually brush...... I would hope.

Kitrina




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Ariadna Solovyova

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Peggy wrote:

> But it doesn't "solve" the problem. What happens with kids who are not
> exposed it they have a tendency to "go crazy" over sugar or tv when over
> at their friends houses. They aren't developing the skills necessary for
> self regulation.

Well, we use xylitol (birch sugar) :-) . It's tastes *just* like sugar
(really!), and it actually prevents tooth decay! (Try www.xylitol.com).

As for TV, we do watch videos. VCR is on a low shelf, and my daughter's
free to turn it on whenever she wants. She does it very rarely (more often
when she's sick).


>
> We had tooth decay on breastmilk. The biggest single factor for healthy
> teeth is hereditary.

I was convinced otherwise after reading a book called "Nutrition and Human
Degeneration", by Weston A. Price, DDS. (See www.westonaprice.org). He
found that whenever people abandon traditional diets in favor of modern
ones, they develop tooth decay. Sugar and white flour are main culprits.
He travelled the world extensively, and found many cases of neighboring
villages, where in one village people still ate traditional foods and in
the other, already switched to "civilized" foods. People who ate *only*
traditional foods had *zero* decay. His book is filled with amazing x-rays
and pictures of teeth proving his point. Genetics is a factor, to be sure;
but nutrition is as important.



>
> Peggy
>
>
> Ariadna Solovyova wrote:
> >
> > Yes, it's a lot easier to not have a TV or sugar in the house. Works for
> > us. A lot less tooth decay, too.
> > Ari
> >
> > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, Mary Hickman wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > ...
> > >
> > > My little guy never gets enough TV. He would watch every movie every day
> > > forever. He tantrums for the TV to be on longer all the time. The more he
> > > watches the more he asks the more he wants.I also notice he has less ability
> > > to contain his wilds after watching TV. His body needs to go. I wouldn't let
> > > him eat all the sugar in the house either. I quess I'm not comfortable
> > > letting him choose what is right for him yet. Maybe I will grow to see he
> > ...
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Peggy

Ariadna Solovyova wrote:

> Well, we use xylitol (birch sugar) :-) . It's tastes *just* like sugar
> (really!), and it actually prevents tooth decay! (Try www.xylitol.com).

But, you are not addressing the point I raised, what happens when your
child is exposed to the outside TV/Sugar culture?

>
> As for TV, we do watch videos. VCR is on a low shelf, and my daughter's
> free to turn it on whenever she wants. She does it very rarely (more often
> when she's sick).
>
> >
> > We had tooth decay on breastmilk. The biggest single factor for healthy
> > teeth is hereditary.
>
> I was convinced otherwise after reading a book called "Nutrition and Human
> Degeneration", by Weston A. Price, DDS. (See www.westonaprice.org). He
> found that whenever people abandon traditional diets in favor of modern
> ones, they develop tooth decay. Sugar and white flour are main culprits.
> He travelled the world extensively, and found many cases of neighboring
> villages, where in one village people still ate traditional foods and in
> the other, already switched to "civilized" foods. People who ate *only*
> traditional foods had *zero* decay. His book is filled with amazing x-rays
> and pictures of teeth proving his point. Genetics is a factor, to be sure;
> but nutrition is as important.

I agree that modern diets play a hugh part in tooth decay. Controlling a
child's environment only works for so long, however. What happens at
parties and outside events? In my experience the mother or father then
becomes the big controller allocating candy like allowance funds. The
child doesn't develop the self regulation skills they need to feel good
about making their own choices. I think some of these things are
developmental issues - more control while young and isolated and less
when autonomy kicks in, but no parent is able to totally isolate their
children from the surrounding influences. My daily prayer isn't to god,
it is to myself to let go and quit thinking I run things that I really
do not. Sort of my mantra. ;)


Peggy

>

[email protected]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:28:51 -0800 (PST) Ariadna Solovyova
<ari@...> writes:
> Everybody has a sense of taste that they use to select books to read,
> music to listen to, videos to watch, computer games to play, food to
eat
> -- and thereby, shape their children's environment and control
> (horrors!:-) ) their choices. To some extent. Of course, children will
choose
> things on their own too. But if you talk about your tastes and values
to
> your children and around them, they are likely to accept them as their
> own; at least, those of them that you're most passionate about.

This has not been my experience.

I can take or leave tv, and rarely turn it on. It bothers me, purely as a
noise thing. I don't like noise very much. Cacie *loves* tv. She also
loves Smash Mouth, and will listen to both at the same time. If I'm in
the room, that makes me totally crazy (and she will turn one off if I ask
her to, she's nice like that).

I eat tofu from the box and have avocado sandwiches for lunch most days.
Cacie doesn't like either one. She loves on vegetarian gyoza, which I
don't like very much.

I read pretty much nothing but non-fiction, just can't get into fiction
much. Cacie almost exclusively reads fiction.

I could go on... we do agree on some stuff, of course, but we have very
different tastes. She tends to agree with me when what I say makes sense,
and for me to be passionately anti-tv seems illogical to both of us.

As far as "institutional mind control", I guess I give my kid more credit
than that. Of course there's a bias, and of course they're trying to sell
you stuff, and she knows that. Sometimes I worry that she's too cynical,
since she doesn't seem to believe anything any commercial says... tv is
fairly interactive around here. I listen to her sometimes as she watches
the tv, and it's, "Oh, the *boy* saves them! How *sexist*!" "Oh, right,
like I want to buy some dumb makeup kit just because it has Barbie on
it!" and on and on.

She critiques books, too, in much the same way.

Dar
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On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:59:05 -0700 "Tara Maldonado Oster"
<tjmaldo@...> writes:
> Yes, Sandra, they can. It's my big gift to myself this year, to take
> some sort of dance class. Been telling all the moms at homeschool
> meetings that I'm gonna do it. Now I gotta get off my duff and do it.
I
> can't blame TV now. DAMN! It's all on my shoulders. The pressure.
> (said jokingly)

Go! Go! Go!

I want to find a soccer team for 30-something women. I've decided I like
soccer. My goal for the coming year...

Dar
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In a message dated 1/28/02 1:01:26 AM, tjmaldo@... writes:

<< Enriched to me means a house full of love. >>

That's a good point.

Enriched to me means that, but I define it as freedom and positive regard.
Some houses have stuff, but the kids are subtly (or overtly) shamed and
teased for using it.

I think encyclopedias are as good as a cat. "A cat can look at an
encyclopedia." I would be more worried about a family that had no internet
access AND no encyclopedia than a family that didn't have a cat. Shoes are
okay, but thrift stores are full of them (and rarely have cats or
encyclopedias).

I believe it would be very difficult for a person who loves a stripped-down
house without *stuff* to unschool. Some families with kids in school just
have houses for sleeping between work days and school days. They assume that
at school kids can do art, make noise, play with clay, look at a globe, read
books, have paper and pencils And that at home those things are just clutter
and nonsense.

So I think unschoolers should get to their houses anything the parents used
to think the kids would be able to learn about at school. I don't know what
that would be, depends on what the parents think!

Holly has been asking me about terrariums (terrariae sounds like something an
elephant would say) and I've lamely been saying people used to make them out
of jars and big plastic bottles and not DOING it (because I don't have a
green thumb and I don't want to make the Jar of Doom for her). But if she
was in school, I could tell myself (and tell myself to believe me on faith)
that at school she'd get to see one. And maybe a turtle and a hamster.
But not at OUR house.

So I think unschooling houses can be used being enriched with acceptance,
curiosity, joy in discovery, toys, tools, materials, demo objects (those five
little balls hanging on a frame to show transference of energy and the
pendulum; our most recent set was played with until it was down to two, and
we need another one becaue they're just to fun), magnets, music, cookbooks...

I think of "enriched" as the opposite of "sparse." (Some people see
"oppulent" as the opposite of "sparse" maybe or "cluttered" but that's their
own mindset.)

Sandra

[email protected]

Pam Hartley said everything so amusingly and well that it hardly seems
like I should be yammering, but I will.
My son is nine now and we never limited the amount of TV he could watch,
video games or computer games or the content, never restricted sugar, or
how much. He discovered Godzilla movies when he was four, and shortly
after that all other monster movies, and then the Three Stooges, nyuk,
nyuk, nyuk. (This I could do without )
There were days he watched TV, or played play station all day, and still
are, but he also does everything else. There are days he eats cake for
breakfast and more days when he doesn't. He knows what he wants, same as
I do.
Your son will find his own balance. Wild energy after sitting all day is
balance, just like activity after sleeping at night and a walk after a
big dinner. Your son is showing you he knows about balance. TV doesn't
make him a wild man, it is nature says ok, you sat, now you run.
I would urge you to LET HIM BE. You don't know what the future has in
store for him. What if he's going to be another George Lucas, would TV
seem like a waste of time then? If you knew he was going to be a pilot,
would you ever think he could read too many books about flying? Play
with too many toy airplanes?
My son at nine is just one example of a child let alone to make his own
choices. He's not a couch potato. He's never had a cavity. He's not
overweight. He has an active life of play and sports and quiet times and
TV time and he's OK.
Kids who have loving families and lots of choices will never ALWAYS
choose TV.
They might choose TV for ten days in a row or twenty, but never ALWAYS.
And you wouldn't be worried if he chose to go outside and play in the
sand box everyday for ten days running. There is value in everything.
You might not see it yet but it's there and your child has found it.
It's filling some need of his right now and when he's finished he'll move
on to the next thing. I just hope for your sake it's not tarantulas or
taxidermy. <g>

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/02 8:27:57 AM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< >>You may have been looking for the phrase "spit and vinegar," however;
>>neither of which are welcome in my bedroom, though I can't speak for
>>everyone.>>

That would give new meaning to the phrase "sour puss" though, wouldn't it?
>>

Oh hey!! If you put baking soda in first...

(I guess showing the kids would be out of the question though...)

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/02 9:15:24 AM, sharonve@... writes:

<< I don't limit tv, or computer, or modeling clay >>

Hey! I mentioned modeling clay this morning too. <g.
There must then certainly be mindreading and astral travel and everything
related to them!

(I'm joking, all o'ya'll can unruffle your feathers.)

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/28/02 9:38:42 AM, the_earth_witch@... writes:

<< I
make suggestions about hygiene, although I rarely feel
the need to. >>

Sometimes I say to Marty this:

"You need to take a shower before you go."

It's not "You have to take a shower because I said so," it is "I perceive
that you have the need to have a shower."

And so he doesn't argue. I've done him a favor.

Kirby takes a shower every morning when he wakes up. If he's not going
anywhere until late afternoon, he might wait until after he eats. Pretty
much, though, he stands and showers.

In the fall of 2000 he got a job, working at 8:30 Saturday mornings. I used
to suggest he take a shower before he went to bed, but he has long hair about
which he's vain, and didn't want it lumpy. So he would get up and take a
shower, which had the added effect of waking him up.

Before that, he had stayed with my sister a week (he was 12) and she
complained that he didn't bathe enough. So all we had was that some-months
once-a-week early shower. And without any parental rulings or advice, that
turned into a daily shower for a kid who only works twice or three times a
week.

He saw it as the good thing it is, not as a parental rule to try to run
around the end of.

Sandra