magenta_mum

Lots of children of all ages do touch and play with themselves,
without that meaning anything like having been abused. There is the
potential for them to be abused if someone reads that child as
'awakened' and assumes they're ready to engage in an adult conception
of sexual activity.

There's also the potential for a child who is seen as anything from
'precocious' to 'very sexual' to be disrespectful of other children if
they haven't been given information about boundaries and autonomy and
that others' experiences of themselves may be quite different to their
own.

The child who is not yet sexual in any way, is almost always not a
repressed child, they're just not there yet.

So while I don't believe sex to be a bad thing, it's also not always a
good thing for everyone, of every age in all contexts.

For another bad analogy, if a child enjoys a sip or mouthful of beer,
do we then give them a six-pack or two, on the assumption they're
ready for that?

Jo R

Gold Standard

>>For another bad analogy, if a child enjoys a sip or mouthful of beer,
>>do we then give them a six-pack or two, on the assumption they're
>>ready for that?<<

Jo, I'm just wondering what this sentence is connected to in this thread. I
haven't read anyone suggesting putting a child in a situation of having sex.

You seem to have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to this subject, if you don't
mind my saying...talked about being mad, and impatient...what's that about?
So far I've only read suggestions from unschoolers, mostly long-time
unschoolers, about discerning "junk" from reality, paying attention to
warning signs, keeping an open mind and open communication, being careful of
kids you don't know much about if something seems off, listening to and
respecting children...what there to be mad and impatient about?

Just curious,
Jacki

Sandra Dodd

-=-
You seem to have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to this subject, if
you don't
mind my saying...talked about being mad, and impatient...what's that
about?-=-

It's okay not to analyze someone's unusual response or to demand
answers. Maybe some answers we don't want. Seriously.

Suggestions that help people get to a peaceful unschooling place are
good.

We don't need to know too much about individuals' prejudices and
problems, we just need to share ideas.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 29, 2007, at 8:22 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-
> You seem to have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to this subject, if
> you don't
> mind my saying...talked about being mad, and impatient...what's that
> about?-=-
>
> It's okay not to analyze someone's unusual response or to demand
> answers. Maybe some answers we don't want. Seriously.
>
> Suggestions that help people get to a peaceful unschooling place are
> good.
>
> We don't need to know too much about individuals' prejudices and
> problems, we just need to share ideas.

Nobody should be expected 'fess up to us about whatever it might be
about, but it was a good point if intended as a suggestion that she
might want to consider the question, for herself.

-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

magenta_mum

Hi Jacki. I don't mind answering your questions, though I think I've
addressed one or two things already... I'm aware, too, that this topic
generally can be triggering for some people, and apologise to anyone
who's been upset by anything I've said.

--- In [email protected], "Gold Standard" <jacki@...>
wrote qutoing me, at first:
> >>For another bad analogy, if a child enjoys a sip or mouthful of beer,
> >>do we then give them a six-pack or two, on the assumption they're
> >>ready for that?<<

> Jo, I'm just wondering what this sentence is connected to in this
thread.
>

That was about this, really "There is the potential for them to be
abused if someone reads that child as 'awakened' and assumes they're
ready to engage in an adult conception of sexual activity."

The ideas, in the broader culture that there's something either wrong
or adult about anything that resembles sexual expression/activity in
children. I could be more explicit, but am feeling uncomfortable out
of consideration for others, about doing that publicly.

>
I haven't read anyone suggesting putting a child in a situation of
having sex.
>

No. You're right there. But, in throwing around ideas I, and others,
moved beyond any specific. So that the cultural and social waters we
are all swimming in became part of what was being talked about, part
of what informs the discussions. Our culture, Western culture, is
pretty much sex saturated nowadays, and as a mother I've felt like I
needed to find ways to help my daughter navigate that. I'm not
convinced that the saturation that passes for liberation is, in fact,
anything like what I'd identify as real liberation.

For instance, the sexualisation of ever younger children seems wrong
to me. The idea that's out there, in the broader culture that
liberation means anything-goes, including those who think that
children should be liberated from the bonds of taboos against sexual
activity between adults and children.

My interest in this area is informal, and springs largely from being a
mother. In criticising what I see in the broader culture, I've
endeavoured to educate myself and form some picture of what would sit
better with me than a lot of what we have, so I've read quite a lot
about sexuality, and talked with people who know more than I,
including some who work in the area of sexual abuse - one woman stands
out in my mind because she chose her work because of startlingly bad
experiences she'd had as a child.

> You seem to have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to this subject, if
you don't mind my saying...talked about being mad, and
impatient...what's that about?
>

I think I explained that, and apologised for it, perhaps not well.
Again, I got worked up in my head about something that angers me, the
abuse of children and those who would and have moved to justify that,
in the broader culture, then projected some ill feeling into the thread.

> So far I've only read suggestions from unschoolers, mostly long-time
> unschoolers, about discerning "junk" from reality, paying attention
to warning signs, keeping an open mind and open communication, being
careful of kids you don't know much about if something seems off,
listening to and respecting children...what there to be mad and
impatient about?
>
> Just curious,

There wasn't anything in the thread for me to be mad and impatient
about; there were lots of good, helpful, useful things said.

There's lots outside the thread, in the broader culture, to be mad and
impatient about, I think. Unfortunately, I brought some of that here,
briefly, in an unhelpful way, which I hope doesn't negate anything
useful I said.

Jo R

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 30, 2007, at 2:18 AM, magenta_mum wrote:

> the
> abuse of children and those who would and have moved to justify that,
> in the broader culture, then projected some ill feeling into the
> thread.

Are you talking about the man-boy group that promotes the idea that
sex between adults and children is okay?

I wouldn't say at ALL that that is becoming justified in the broader
culture. People are more and more aware of the harm that sexual abuse
does to children, these days.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

magenta_mum

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> Are you talking about the man-boy group that promotes the idea that
> sex between adults and children is okay?
>
> I wouldn't say at ALL that that is becoming justified in the broader
> culture. People are more and more aware of the harm that sexual abuse
> does to children, these days.
>
> -pam
>

There have been commentators, apart from NAMBLA, who did and still do
get airplay in some circles. Their arguments are eloquent and can seem
to make a whole lot of sense, so that it can become difficult in the
face of them to say "that's just WRONG!" if the *why* it's wrong can't
be clearly articulated. I had felt the need, in my own life, to get
really clear about the why.

It's probably never going to come up in most everyone's life, raising
their children, but I guess I thought it important enough to spout on
about here.

I would so rather be reading about Spongebob and Spearows and such. K,
13, has a Spongebob t-shirt, scored from our favourite secondhand
place a few years ago, that she still often wears. He's such a great
character, across many ages, and times too, I should think.

I want to apologise here, too, to Crystal especially and everyone who
reads, for having lost the plot a bit a couple of days ago. After I
responded to Jacki yesterday, I went back and re-read where I'd posted
weirdly, to say the least, to Crystal, and was shocked by the tone and
the actual words in at least a couple of sentences I'd written. There
were words there that had leapt straight out of my subconscious, that
I didn't even remember writing, that were about and for a whole other
situation and person that is/has been being a stressor in my life.

That's never happened to me before. I hadn't thought that sitch was
bothering me much until I saw that it was clearly leaking out of me in
the most inappropriate way. I spent a mortified day trying to begin to
get my head straight about all that. Read some Daily Groove to help
centre myself, too.

I'm really sorry for being so scary (quite out of character) and thank
various of you, especially Crystal, for your generosity.

Jo R