Nanci Kuykendall

<< Personally, I think we *do* choose our own
family, as well as attract all the 'positive' and
'negative' things that happen to us. I don't mean to
say that we are necessarily responsible on a conscious
level, or that anyone should ever feel guilty for
something that happens to them.. only that we are
often creating by default, and that every situation
can change for the better. Why is this a dangerous
idea? >>

>Because it justifies abuse and violence.
>If people have attracted the negative things that
>happen to them, then not only do they not need to
>feel guilty, but those who DO the things don't
>need to feel guilty.
>Sandra

I am of two minds on the Fate vs Will issue. I do not
see the two as opposed. I agree with Sandra, that
children in particular cannot be responsible
(consciously or otherwise) for choosing poor parents
or abusive and dysfunctional lives. Children do not
have a choice, otherwise many people would NEVER get
to have any children because all those choosing souls
would avoid them.

By the same token though, I do believe our behavior as
more mature people hugely colors whether we are
surrounded by positivity or negativity. We have the
power of choice, and the ability to recognize
unhealthy patterns of behavior and thought in
ourselves and take steps towards healing. However, we
have to learn so many things first that children do
not know, such as what is unhealthy and what is
healthy, how to recognize patterns of behavior early
on in relationships, how to respond to situations in
new/positive ways, how to deal well with people, how
to heal and many other things.

Nanci K.

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rainbowlovespirit

Children do not
> have a choice, otherwise many people would NEVER get
> to have any children because all those choosing souls
> would avoid them.

***This makes the broad assumption that we will only choose lives
that are comfortable. If that was the case, we would rarely learn
anything, in my opinion. I believe that we choose given much more
information than is consciously available to us in this lifetime.

Love, Tori

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/16/02 2:19:29 PM, rainbowlovespirit@... writes:

<< ***This makes the broad assumption that we will only choose lives
that are comfortable. If that was the case, we would rarely learn
anything, in my opinion. I believe that we choose given much more
information than is consciously available to us in this lifetime.
>>

Well the first "broad assumption" makes sense to humans who know humans and
can't or don't want to think that a person would choose rape and torture.

The second, that we would go through that to learn how to deal with it, is
the BIG stretching assumption.

Where does it come from? Because the ancient purveyors of the idea of
reincarnation are the Hindus and I don't believe they have the idea that
people would choose pain, but that higher lives are marked by the lessening
of pain and suffering.

Sandra

rainbowlovespirit

> << ***This makes the broad assumption that we will only choose
lives
> that are comfortable. If that was the case, we would rarely learn
> anything, in my opinion. I believe that we choose given much more
> information than is consciously available to us in this lifetime.
> >>
>
> Well the first "broad assumption" makes sense to humans who know
humans and
> can't or don't want to think that a person would choose rape and
torture.

***But that's just the point I'm trying to make.. I think we are only
human *now* and that ultimately we are spiritual beings who have
access to much more information than humans.
>
> The second, that we would go through that to learn how to deal with
it, is
> the BIG stretching assumption.

***I'm not making any assumptions.. just telling you what I believe.
I don't think anyone necessarily goes through those things just to
learn how to deal with them... I'm sure there are many other things
that are learned from a 'negative' situation, both for our human
sides and our 'spirit'.
>
> Where does it come from? Because the ancient purveyors of the idea
of
> reincarnation are the Hindus and I don't believe they have the idea
that
> people would choose pain, but that higher lives are marked by the
lessening
> of pain and suffering.

***Where does what come from? My beliefs? I know very little about
the Hindus, or almost any organized religion at all for that
matter... I have been influenced by Buddhism, Seth, Abraham and the
idea of reality-creation.

If you don't mind me asking Sandra, how is it that you trust your
children so much and let them make so many of their own decisions
without believing that they possess some sort of innate knowledge
that will guide them to make the right choices for them? Do you see
it as biological? (I'm honestly curious... I don't mean any
disrespect :-) )

Love, Tori

rainbowlovespirit

I just want to apologize if I have offended anyone with my
(admittedly unorthodox) point of view...

***I want to clarify that I absolutely DO NOT think that anyone
DESERVES bad things to happen to them.***

I have the feeling that my viewpoint can only really be understood
after an in-depth discussion. I can see that it is very different
from the way most people view things. (I knew that it was, but I
don't think I realized HOW different until this discussion. I tend
to surround myself with like-minded people most of the time.)

Anyway, my apologies to anyone who may have been offended... that
certainly was not what I intended.

Love, Tori

[email protected]

I agree with you, Tori. In the past few years, I have come to believe that
the folks we know as humans now are just spirits visible as people for now.
Sometimes I wish I could act out of this belief in a more positive way, but I
find myself caught in minutae and exasperation with myself and others gets in
the way.

I do believe our spirits choose the path. Either we choose to learn or to
help another spirit learn from a place where our fully developed conciousness
has way more answers than we are allowed to bring into this life. It is hard
to hear of violence and pain and still keep this in mind. I wish I was
better able to give cohesive voice to this belief.

Blessed be, DiAnna

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/16/02 2:51:39 PM, rainbowlovespirit@... writes:

<< If you don't mind me asking Sandra, how is it that you trust your
children so much and let them make so many of their own decisions
without believing that they possess some sort of innate knowledge
that will guide them to make the right choices for them? Do you see
it as biological? (I'm honestly curious... I don't mean any
disrespect :-) )
>>

I see them learning from each decision they make, and becoming more
compassionate each time they accidently hurt someone else physically or
emotionally, or when they are sad about something. I don't think it needs
innate wisdom. They've grown from bright, thoughtful babies to bright,
thoughtful teens and big kids one breath at a time.

I don't induce sorrow into their lives. I don't frustrate them so they'll
learn to deal with frustration. If I die today, they'll look back in twenty
years and say what they learned from it, yada, yada, but that doesn't mean I
should abandon them just to see what they'll learn.

I think the choosing-one's-own-life thing is too often used as padding for
justifications for personal desires.

This didn't answer my question:
-=-I have been influenced by Buddhism, Seth, Abraham and the
idea of reality-creation.-=-

Where did the idea come from that a soul chooses its next family?

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
> I have the feeling that my viewpoint can only really be understood
>after an in-depth discussion. I can see that it is very different
>from the way most people view things. (I knew that it was, but I
>don't think I realized HOW different until this discussion. I tend
>to surround myself with like-minded people most of the time.)

I haven't had time to get involved in this discussion, but my beliefs are
very similar to yours, Tori. And yes, I think there's an awful lot of
background info needed before it starts to make sense, especially to anyone
who has had a lot of negative stuff happen to them in this lifetime. It's
just the only explanation that makes sense to me for a lot of things.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

>
>I think the choosing-one's-own-life thing is too often used as padding for
>justifications for personal desires.

Some people certainly use it that way. And if that's the only experience
someone has with these ideas, naturally they're going to think it's a bunch
of bull.


>This didn't answer my question:
>-=-I have been influenced by Buddhism, Seth, Abraham and the
>idea of reality-creation.-=-
>
>Where did the idea come from that a soul chooses its next family?

Does it matter?
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/16/02 10:35:42 PM, leschke@... writes:

<< >Where did the idea come from that a soul chooses its next family?

Does it matter? >>

It matters to me.
I'm always curious about the origins of ideas, concepts, words, religions,
beliefs, practices.

I'm curious about why anyone would NOT be curious!

Sandra
---------------------------

Tia Leschke

><< >Where did the idea come from that a soul chooses its next family?
>
>Does it matter? >>
>
>It matters to me.
>I'm always curious about the origins of ideas, concepts, words, religions,
>beliefs, practices.
>
>I'm curious about why anyone would NOT be curious!

I can't imagine not being curious about almost everything. I only asked
because somebody did say where *they* got the idea from, and it wasn't
Hinduism, like you seemed to think.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Nancy Wooton

on 1/16/02 2:25 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Where did the idea come from that a soul chooses its next family?

Don't Mormons believe in the pre-existence of souls? I always assumed it
was God who placed the souls with the families, since He'd know in advance
what would happen in their lives.

I don't believe in either pre-existence or reincarnation. My dad believes
he's a reincarnation of a priestess of Athena, buried alive on order of the
Emperor Constantine, by which explains his claustrophobia. I think his dad
locked him in the cellar or something, but denial is a powerful force.

Is there anyone on the list who doesn't believe in the *existence* of souls?

Always curious,
Nancy

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/16/02 10:57:18 PM, leschke@... writes:

<< I only asked
because somebody did say where *they* got the idea from, and it wasn't
Hinduism, like you seemed to think. >>

I said it was not what the Hindus think. I don't remember anyone explaining
where the idea can be found, and I'm still interested.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/17/2002 2:02:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Felicitas@... writes:


> Is there anyone on the list who doesn't believe in the *existence* of souls?
>
>

yep.

Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

When Hucky was 2, he came to me really angry,
irritated, perturbed and said quite clearly "I was
supposed to be born first!! David pushed me out of the
way!! I am supposed to be the oldest!". David, who
had followed him to wee what was up, "Grinned
sheepishly and just shrugged. They both remember being
infants. David more than Huck. Huck only has an
impression of remembering a before birth time now.
Huck was and still is delighted with his childhood.

SOS



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Tia Leschke

>
>I said it was not what the Hindus think. I don't remember anyone explaining
>where the idea can be found, and I'm still interested.

Ok, the Hindus believe in Karma more in the sense almost of punishment. (I
think)

I don't remember who it was that mentioned where she had gotten the idea,
but I remember that Buddhism and Seth were two of the answers. There was
lots about it in the Edgar Cayce books, but it's been a long time since I
read any of those. I know there's lots of info out there. It's just been
a long time since I was searching. I think Louise Hay also talks about it.
Tia

What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/17/02 10:27:35 AM, leschke@... writes:

<< I don't remember who it was that mentioned where she had gotten the idea,
but I remember that Buddhism and Seth were two of the answers. >>

That was a list of influences, not the source (as I read it).

<<There was
lots about it in the Edgar Cayce books>>

That's the kind of answer I want. Where did HE get the idea? Who/what is
the original source?

Sandra

[email protected]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:58:37 -0800 Nancy Wooton <Felicitas@...>
writes:
> Is there anyone on the list who doesn't believe in the *existence*
> of souls?

I don't. It's an interesting thought though. My little boy loves the
idea of ghosts and spirits and hopes to see them everywhere. I have a
friend believes someone with a strong personality can leave their psychic
energy behind in places or objects. Is that called psychometry? I
forget.
I once had a rocking chair everyone thought was haunted. I inherited it
from an old Auntie. It was a beautiful and rather large Victorian wooden
rocker and absolutely emotionally unappealing to everyone who saw it.
My little tabby cat would hiss at it sometimes and no one would sit in
it. Everyone said there was something wrong with it. I eventually sold
it on consignment in a shop and even that took some doing. I think she
finally sold it over the Internet to some folks out of state.
Maybe one day I'll see it on unsolved mysteries.<g>

I'm sure it's comforting for some to believe we have souls and can live
on, or have lived before. I think we're here and gone and that's
comforting to me. Too much responsibility in endless lifetimes.<g>

Deb L

rainbowlovespirit

>
> << I don't remember who it was that mentioned where she had gotten
the idea,
> but I remember that Buddhism and Seth were two of the answers. >>

***That was me :-)
>
> That was a list of influences, not the source (as I read it).

***Yes, a list of my influences.. *my* source.
>
> <<There was
> lots about it in the Edgar Cayce books>>
>
> That's the kind of answer I want. Where did HE get the idea?
Who/what is
> the original source?

***I didn't answer because I don't know where the idea of souls
choosing a painful or short life originally came from (I assume
that's the idea we're talking about) I only know where *I* read it..
I would be interested to see if anyone *could* pinpoint the original
source.

Love, Tori.. who is hoping this message actually gets posted this
time!

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/17/02 12:14:30 PM, rainbowlovespirit@... writes:

<< I only know where *I* read it.. >>

If you could tell us where you read it, it would help pinpoint the source,
maybe.

Sandra

Sharon Rudd

Oh yes, "shaved goats" reminded me, "Mammaries"
another term I heard via Monty Python, that I haven't
heard used elsewhere.....(except for mammals, besides
us)
-------
At a gathering of Japanese women. Moses (babe in
arms...4 months old) became hungry. As discreetly as
possible I began to nurse him. One woman asked as they
watched with unconcealed curiosity, "Is like cow?"
First I turned very red, then had to laugh. "Well,
yes, it is. But I pretend it isn't."

Within upper,upper, middle class suburbia
breastfeeding wasn't usually even considered (at least
in Urawa prefect). WWII generation did, their
daughters did not. Most women did have lots of peer
support in all endeavors, including childcare. Very
seldom was there any isolated or individual activity.
This was 21 years ago. Lot's of things are different
now, as they are everywhere.

SOS

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pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes

Hello Nancy,

I haven't posted her before, but your comment about your dad piqued
my curiosity. Does his belief that he's the Princess Athena stem
from his spiritual practice, or is he mentally ill? When I was a
child, my father would claim he was the Ethiopian emperor, Haile
Selaissee, but I always assumed he was mentally ill, or perhaps just
influenced by alcohol.

Pumpkin

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/18/02 8:08:26 AM, djac99@... writes:

<< When I was a
child, my father would claim he was the Ethiopian emperor, Haile
Selaissee, but I always assumed he was mentally ill, or perhaps just
influenced by alcohol. >>

Could be all three!

(Not a comment on your dad, but on reincarnation itself. If it's real, even
drunks and nuts has former lives, so we can't discount "I'm Napoleon" in
EVERY case.)

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

on 1/18/02 7:01 AM, pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes at djac99@... wrote:

> Hello Nancy,
>
> I haven't posted her before, but your comment about your dad piqued
> my curiosity. Does his belief that he's the Princess Athena stem
> from his spiritual practice, or is he mentally ill? When I was a
> child, my father would claim he was the Ethiopian emperor, Haile
> Selaissee, but I always assumed he was mentally ill, or perhaps just
> influenced by alcohol.
>

What I wrote was **My dad believes
he's a reincarnation of a priestess of Athena, buried alive on order of the
Emperor Constantine, by which explains his claustrophobia. I think his dad
locked him in the cellar or something, but denial is a powerful force.**

So, not a princess, but one of the temple priestesses (although I can find
only mention of male priests) of the Greek goddess Athena. I think he read
about them in a Readers Digest civilizations book. He may have confused the
Persian sack of Athens in 480 B.C. with the demise of *Roman* pagan worship;
Constantine was responsible for a lot of things, but not martyring
priestesses of Athena. My dad's religion does believe in reincarnation, but
I think he was trying to find a reason for his claustrophobia that didn't
require facing repressed (real) memories. He grew up in Kansas, where
hiding in the root cellar from tornadoes was common, and terrifying.
(Whether he was ever locked in as a punishment, we'll never know.)

Another value in picking on Constantine was that arguing religion was a
favorite sport, and I was a recent convert to Eastern Orthodox Christianity
where Constantine is revered as a saint. My mom had never heard the
priestess of Athena theory before :-)

I didn't answer your question about mental illness, did I? <g>

Nancy

rainbowlovespirit

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/17/02 12:14:30 PM, rainbowlovespirit@y...
writes:
>
> << I only know where *I* read it.. >>
>
> If you could tell us where you read it, it would help pinpoint the
source,
> maybe.

***I'm afraid I can't be more specific than what I already said.. at
least not without a whole lot of research, which I'm really not into
at this point :-) (Being 9 months pregnant and all. <g> ) I have a
feeling that the idea has been around for a long time though, and
looking at Buddhism would probably be more productive if you're
looking for an original source. (Can't help you too much with that,
although my dad runs a Buddhist library, and would probably be more
than happy to help out, if you so desire.) Most of the things that
I'm into (Seth, Abraham) are alot more recent.

Love, Tori

Fetteroll

on 1/16/02 10:49 PM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:

> And yes, I think there's an awful lot of
> background info needed before it starts to make sense, especially to anyone
> who has had a lot of negative stuff happen to them in this lifetime. It's
> just the only explanation that makes sense to me for a lot of things.

But it's only necessary to explain the complications involved when assuming
that souls exist and that there is a purpose to existence. If neither of
those is true, then it isn't necessary to have a complex belief system to
explain what part such and such plays in the great scheme of things.

What part of our existence is explainable only by supposing the existence of
souls?

I think having a soul and a greater purpose is way more interesting than
being my genes vehicle of procreation but, on the other hand, I don't see
anything that my belief system can't explain.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rainbowlovespirit

> What part of our existence is explainable only by supposing the
existence of
> souls?


What about things like ghosts, astral projection (remote viewing)
that science for the most part denies but people have experienced?
(Not that these are only explicable by the existance of souls, but
they do seem to be things that can't be explained by such
a 'practical' (for lack of a better word) view of the universe.)

Love, Tori

Sharon Rudd

> > What part of our existence is explainable only by
> supposing the
> existence of
> > souls?

Just the existance of anything at all, and our
awareness of Being


or how about those beings that LOOK like humans, but
have NO souls. (sort of like a birth defect) The
existance of such entities, by contrast, allows us to
See our own and others qualities which make us human.
One of these qualities is Spirit. or Soul. or
Connection. We have this Oneness in common with most
of the universe....and were it is percieved as not
there, it is only perception.

Even though lots of entities percieve themselves as
not connected (and they aren't from their viewpoint)
they are connected as part of the awareness of those
that are aware of the convoluted, interrealted,
impersonal personalness of All. Religions and
philosophies, ideas, viewpoints are only pathways to
understanding. All pathways lead to one. Even the
blackholes and whatever is in the condensed or
inverted reality within or on the other infinit inside
out dance of the stars.

And we all die. Poof. And some aspects are reabsorbed
into the surrounding environment and some aspects
retain a cohesiveness and some aspectes retain
awareness or even an expanded awareness. And some
aspects that have no awareness and never do, except
through the inside out awarenss of the Aware aspects.

Release from rebirth is not an escape. It is more.
Death is not escape. It is merely death. And it
doesn't really matter. It is just fun to think about.
We still take care of the children and do the best we
can....becuase it is more fun that way.

Sharon of the Swamp

"There is nothing that cannot be forgiven"
Alice Walker



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Fetteroll

on 1/20/02 10:59 AM, rainbowlovespirit at rainbowlovespirit@... wrote:

> What about things like ghosts, astral projection (remote viewing)
> that science for the most part denies but people have experienced?
> (Not that these are only explicable by the existance of souls, but
> they do seem to be things that can't be explained by such
> a 'practical' (for lack of a better word) view of the universe.)

That's assuming that someone accepts those as reality and not the workings
of a complex and barely understood brain. There are mundane explanations for
weird phenomena like mass hysteria and placebo effect.

It's using an untestable, unreproducible phenomenon/theory (souls, gods) to
explain other untestable, unreproducible phenomenon. People have
"experienced" abduction by aliens, Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster. And
haunted chairs. ;-) That doesn't mean the phenomenon has an explanation,
though what's causing them to experience the phenomenon does. If something
can *only* be experienced in the absence of scientific measurement, then I
think it's reasonable to question whether it actually exists.

I know James Randi, the magician, has written a number of books about
logical explanations of paranormal phenomena.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:59:14 -0000 "rainbowlovespirit"
<rainbowlovespirit@...> writes:
> What about things like ghosts, astral projection (remote viewing)
> that science for the most part denies but people have experienced?
> (Not that these are only explicable by the existence of souls, but
> they do seem to be things that can't be explained by such
> a 'practical' (for lack of a better word) view of the universe.)
>
> Love, Tori

Imagination? Hallucination? Pretend? Day dream? Lying? Chemical
imbalance?
I can think of lots of explanations.

I have a friend who sees fairies. Do I love her? Sure. Do I think
she's seeing fairies, you bet. Do I think the fairies are real? No.
I think she really wants to see fairies. Her brain made the fairies.
I once read about some siblings who dug another woman's eyes out with
kitchen spoons because they thought they could see the devil in them or
some such. Lovely.
I think there are a lot of explanations for things like ghosts, etc.
that are based in science, that the ghost experiencers simply don't
accept. We want to believe what we see. We rely on that every day and
if we admit maybe we can't believe our own eyes then we could be in
trouble. But it's really true. We can't always trust our own eyes and
our own brain. Chemical and hormonal imbalance can cause all kinds of
interesting things.
If you've ever known anyone with schizophrenia you know there is a
scientific explanation for it, a medical explanation, but it's still just
sooo freaky you can understand why in the old days folks thought the
victims of this disease were possessed by the devil. Same with Epilepsy.
And if , not admitting anything here, just, supposing,<g> you ever took
LSD you would know for a real and true fact that it's possible to see and
experience ALL KINDS of things that simply are not there.

But, if someone wants to believe in fairies and they're not likely to
cause anyone any harm, it's ok with me. My son believes in all kinds of
interesting things. Is he a nut? Probably, but I like him anyway.<G>

Deb L