thfamily3

I need some input about spelling. After a huge failure of trying to
teach and instruct studies we came back to un schooling and things
are going great, better then great. It took a while to decompress
and I had some major unschooling to do my self.

Now my son almost 9 who was totally refusing to read the simplest of
stores readers 1,2,3, over the years has jumped to adult reading
material. Marvel and Star Wars We have all these book about every
last detail of Spiderman and Star Wars. My son now is drawing ! Oh
yea that another cool thing, him putting a pencil in his hand. :)

He wants to write a story. He want me or his dad to write the story
while he tells it to us. Of course the schoolish thinking is creeping
back. I want him to use this opportunity to learn how to do it for
him self. If he was writing a Cat and Hat book there would be no
problem. I got him a really nice kids dictionary and showed him a bit
how to use it not wanting to overwhelm him. But as I suspected any
word he wants to spell won't be in that dictionary. First thing this
morning he wanted to know how to spell unlimited. His use of words
and vocabulary are so much higher then is ability or even the kids
dictionary. I've told him he can use his other books to spell the
words ne needs.

Were at a good place of learning together and mending our
relationship how do I help him with spelling and writing with out
going to the traditional stand by method of learning this. Doing it
that was was turn off the first time I think it will be again.
Letting him go with it on his own and giving him a tool of the
dictionary isn't going to works either as his need is greater then
the resources allows for. So how do I foster this new desire he has
with out spoiling it again for him. Either by it being so hard doing
it on his own he quits in frustration or I step in and give him tools
that don't help and frustrate him and he quits.

My instinct after writing this is to do the dictation but the
schoolish part of me says no this is opportunity for him to learn
spelling.
Any suggestion
T

s.waynforth

Go with your instinct. Do the dictation. What a wonderful gift he is
giving you of telling you the story as he goes! My brother, who makes
his living writing, gets freaked out if anyone reads what he is writing
before he is finished. Think about all the stories and moments of shared
joy you will be missing if you tell him that it is something he needs to
do on his own. You have this brilliant opportunity to be with your son.

Schuyler

>
>
> My instinct after writing this is to do the dictation but the
> schoolish part of me says no this is opportunity for him to learn
> spelling.
> Any suggestion
> T
>
>

Melissa

One of the good things the kids' school taught us was to take dictation. At the time I was hesitant because *I'd* always been told it was a child's job to write it out. But really, what is the long term goal? The long term goal was to foster a love of creative writing, and self expression. You are not harming the child in the slightest by facilitating that. Hank Zipzer is a great story with a child's point of view....his favorite teacher is the one who tells you how to spell a word without making you feel stupid. Every child feels that way...because really, when you're asking for help, that's the most basic tool! and think about regular development....every child goes through that phase, then they reach a point where they don't need you, or the process takes too long.

I'd say to spell what he wants. Write what he wants. Offer him other tools like the computer to type (Josh loves to make stories with powerpoint because you can type, do pictures, and then it's a slide show) The hardest part for us schooly thoughts is to let misspelling go, but really do! I've seen my kids misspell things over and over, and then weeks or months later come back and say "Wow, that's misspelled!". 

You're at a good place, why would you risk that? Your instinct is telling you exactly what you need to know!
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan (2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at

On Jun 15, 2006, at 9:53 AM, thfamily3 wrote:


Were at a good place of learning together and mending our
relationship how do I help him with spelling and writing with out
going to the traditional stand by method of learning this. Doing it
that was was turn off the first time I think it will be again.
Letting him go with it on his own and giving him a tool of the
dictionary isn't going to works either as his need is greater then
the resources allows for. So how do I foster this new desire he has
with out spoiling it again for him. Either by it being so hard doing
it on his own he quits in frustration or I step in and give him tools
that don't help and frustrate him and he quits.

My instinct after writing this is to do the dictation but the
schoolish part of me says no this is opportunity for him to learn
spelling.
Any suggestion
T


Joyce Fetteroll


On Jun 15, 2006, at 10:53 AM, thfamily3 wrote:

My instinct after writing this is to do the dictation but the 

schoolish part of me says no this is opportunity for him to learn 

spelling.


Worst case scenarios: He learns to spell really well but decides never to write because he equates writing with dull spelling work.

He learns to tell really great stories but never learns to spell.

Which do you think is  more valuable?

9 is very very young for spelling. His spelling will get better when he feels there is value in the skill for him. At 9 there isn't much value. At 13 when he's writing and IMing friends, he'll be more conscious of spelling well enough for others to read and, perhaps, to avoid embarrassment. One of the greatest inventions is the automatic spellchecker :-) Once my daughter started writing on the computer her spelling improved because 1) it was important to her personally and 2) she could get immediate feedback on whether she had guessed right.

And of course there are many college-graduate adults who can't spell well and do just fine.

Joyce

Liz in AZ

> He wants to write a story. He want me or his dad to write the
> story while he tells it to us.

And there you have the whole answer! He wants to write a story, and he
is clear about what help he wants from you to do it. Go for it!

Writing and spelling are two different skill sets anyway. Plenty of
talented writers aren't great spellers--that's what spellcheck and
copy editors are for. And many, many great spellers are not good
writers.

Right now, it sounds like he wants to play around with writing--
crafting a story. Confusing that with penmanship, poetry, punctuation,
papermaking, or spelling isn't likely to help him *or* your
relationship.

Liz in AZ

April Morris

He's not even 9?  And he has a great story to tell? Let him dictate it! Spell out whatever words he wants spelled. My kids haven't had a spelling lesson and they have all learned to spell. Some better than others, but they all spell.   My 15 year old son was working on a 4-H project this morning, he has to write a short summery of what he learned with his pet this year. The worst thing I did for this kid was try to show him spelling rules! He is a very orderly, linear type kid and he wants every word to fit into some rule. He wants a few basic rules that will apply to all words.  And we all know that the English language has more exceptions to the rules than words that follow the rules.....at least it feels that way to Karl!  Spelling is not his strong suit and watching him this morning and seeing his frustration for how words are spelled, a light bulb finally went off! I told him to forget the rules. He has an amazing ability to memorize. I told him to just remember how the words are spelled instead of trying to figure out a pattern and rule for them. He has been trying to spell using a formula. I think if he can switch gears to memorizing instead of using a formula, he'll soon be a whiz and spelling. I, on the other hand, had all the usual years of spelling lessons and tests and still can't spell. Thank goodness for spell-check!
--
~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-17, Karl-15, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
  Gandalf the Grey

 
On 6/15/06, thfamily3 <y_be_norml@...> wrote:

I need some input about spelling. After a huge failure of trying to
teach and instruct studies we came back to un schooling and things
are going great, better then great. It took a while to decompress
and I had some major unschooling to do my self.

Now my son almost 9 who was totally refusing to read the simplest of
stores readers 1,2,3, over the years has jumped to adult reading
material. Marvel and Star Wars We have all these book about every
last detail of Spiderman and Star Wars. My son now is drawing ! Oh
yea that another cool thing, him putting a pencil in his hand. :)

He wants to write a story. He want me or his dad to write the story
while he tells it to us. Of course the schoolish thinking is creeping
back. I want him to use this opportunity to learn how to do it for
him self. If he was writing a Cat and Hat book there would be no
problem. I got him a really nice kids dictionary and showed him a bit
how to use it not wanting to overwhelm him. But as I suspected any
word he wants to spell won't be in that dictionary. First thing this
morning he wanted to know how to spell unlimited. His use of words
and vocabulary are so much higher then is ability or even the kids
dictionary. I've told him he can use his other books to spell the
words ne needs.

Were at a good place of learning together and mending our
relationship how do I help him with spelling and writing with out
going to the traditional stand by method of learning this. Doing it
that was was turn off the first time I think it will be again.
Letting him go with it on his own and giving him a tool of the
dictionary isn't going to works either as his need is greater then
the resources allows for. So how do I foster this new desire he has
with out spoiling it again for him. Either by it being so hard doing
it on his own he quits in frustration or I step in and give him tools
that don't help and frustrate him and he quits.

My instinct after writing this is to do the dictation but the
schoolish part of me says no this is opportunity for him to learn
spelling.
Any suggestion
T




Sandra Dodd

-=-Now my son almost 9 who was totally refusing to read the simplest of
stores readers 1,2,3, over the years has jumped to adult reading
material.-=-

I don't know what "stores readers" are but I balk at and object to your assertion and believe that he was "totally refusing."
Probably he had not the slightest ability to read them, and it would've helped if you had known or considered that.

He didn't jump to adult reading material, he learned to read, and is reading (I hope) what interests him.  Only in school does learning to read follow a slow curve over twelve years.  It's artificial.  Kids learn to read when they learn to read.

Here is a collection of some spelling input from an earlier discussion: http://sandradodd.com/spelling

Pam Sorooshian wrote something that is to be published soon in an online magazine, but it also appeared on another discussion list, Unschooling Basics.
I'll send that separately.   

And here's an argument against making kids look things up:


-=-His use of words
and vocabulary are so much higher then is ability or even the kids
dictionary. I've told him he can use his other books to spell the
words ne needs.-=-

Spell for him, and do it happily and excitedly and gratefully!  It will help build a good relationship between you, and will help him learn to spell, and will help you learn to help him.  Unschooling is all about facilitation.

I spell for my husband.  He has gotten better over the years; he turns 50 next month.  He's much better than he was when I met him, when he was 21.  We made a deal, long ago, that I would spell for him without shaming or recitation and he would calculate for me without telling me I should know what 7x8 is or that I should know how to figure out 15% of $30 or whatever it might have been.  We just gave the information matter-of-factly, and over the years we both got better at what scared us when we were younger, and we liked each other more too.

-=-So how do I foster this new desire he has
with out spoiling it again for him-=-

"Without" is one word.  I'm just pointing that out to remind you that spelling is never finished for anyone.  Even spelling bee participants  miss words—all but one of them, every single spelling bee!  (And the winner would probably have missed some of the words she didn't happen to get that day.)

While  I DO think you should just spell for him, or look things up for him, there are many other tools and choices than you're seeing (or than you mentioned in your writing).  There are little hand-held spelling dictionaries (we got Holly one called WordWhiz, I think, at Radio Shack).  If you enter a word it helps you figure out what word you mean.   Probably there are online versions.  There are dictionaries that come with Macintosh computers; probably there are some with PCs too.  Some of them, when you start typing it starts guessing.

You can put a word into google, and if it's misspelled or near another word, google will ask if you meant that other word.

As unschooling parents we shouldn't try to settle on one best resource or one single plan of action.  Show your children five or six or ten options, and remind them other better ones will come along.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

This will be in Danielle Conger's online magazine Connections this
fall, so read it and the forget it a while so it will seem all new
again. (Does aqnyone have the link to the pre-first issue of
Connections, please? I can't find it. Thanks.


[from Pam Sorooshian to elsewhere some weeks ago, about spelling:]


I just sent this post to my state group (apologies to those who are
on both). I think it might be useful for those people who have kids
who are reading later than they might feel comfortable with - but, if
you read down farther, there is also a part about my 15 yo daughter
and her spelling journey.


I have three daughters - the first read at four and a half years old
and LOVED to read, play word games, started writing her own stories
at five, etc. She still writes and even runs writing workshops and
poetry marathons at camps and where she works, etc.

The second learned to read all on her own at three years old - spent
a few weeks driving her older sister crazy by constantly asking her,
'What's this word? What's this word?" and then she had it figured
out. "I" didn't even know she could read - I wasn't expecting it,
wasn't looking for it, and it apparently happened so fast that I
missed it. My neighbor is the one who told me - she brought Roxana
back from playing at her house and said, "I can't believe she reads
like that." I said, "Hmmm, like what?" She said, "Well, she was
reading to the other kids." I had NO idea. So later I gave her some
books, ones we'd never read together, and she read them. She's still
very very into words - at 18 she loves literature, linguistics,
etymology, theater, and anything else that has to do with words and
writing and will probably major in literature, in college. It is her
passion.

My third child didn't learn to read until she was well into being
eight years old. She has a very very different learning style than
the other two and her focus was on other things. She's very physical
- loves sports (has been on a swim team, played soccer since she was
four, rides horses, and now is very into karate - and she's always
loved puzzles and games - especially strategy games and playing cards
(including figuring odds) and role-playing games. As the years went
by, she loved to listen to books and, as she got older, she got a
little frustrated that she couldn't read. I reminded her that
everybody is different and that she was learning all kinds of other
things and that reading would come, not to worry. I gave her some
help - we played a lot of word games, especially while driving in the
car, but, to be honest, she really wasn't "getting" the idea of
phonics and too much trying to play games based on phonics just got
her extremely frustrated and we'd back off immediately. Slowly,
however, she built up a set of memorized words that she could easily
recognize. And she started trying to read words by guessing based on
the first letter and, a bit later, based on first and last letters.
We joined a theater group and she played the little Indian boy in "A
Midsummer Night's Dream." She carried the script with her all
throughout the early rehearsals, just like everyone else, but "I"
knew she couldn't really read it. Night after night, she "pretended"
to be following the script. Then, one day, I walked in the front door
of our house and there she was, upside down, head on the floor, legs
up over the back of the couch <G>, reading out loud from the
Midsummer script, with GREAT expression, and reading ALL the parts,
not just her own. I thought - "WOW - she's got quite a memory!!" But
I had been fooled again - she was really reading (with a lot of help
from her memory of the show, of course). Somehow those weeks of
"pretending" to follow along in the script had allowed her to break
the code - she "got" the idea and she could suddenly read. That
ability transferred over to all reading material. That was it - she
read everything she could get her hands on. There were LOTS of words
she couldn't read, at first, because she didn't recognize them and
still wasn't "sounding out" well. But her reading improved super fast
and within a few months she was reading as well as my other kids had
been at eight years old - which was VERY advanced for their age -
high school, college level - as well as most adults.

But, there is more - she STILL couldn't write anything that others
could understand because her spelling was SO poor. She couldn't
consistently spell common three-letter words correctly. She usually
got the right letters in the word, but added letters and mixed up the
order in odd ways. She spelled the word, "dear," as "derar," or
"drenar," for example. Very far off - unreadable. And she had a habit
of sticking the letter "n" into words, seemingly randomly. Her
spelling problems continued for years - she was 13 years old and
still having trouble writing well enough for others to understand.
She wanted to do better, but I knew from my research that regular
spelling lessons were not likely to be helpful. I read a book called,
"My Kid Can't Spell: Understanding and Assisting Your Child's
Literacy Development," by Richard Gentry. In that book, he talked
about a spelling disorder as a very distinct and separate thing from
other learning disorders, and he gave a lot of ways to cope with it
and to help a child or adult who really just can't spell. So, rather
than focus on her inability to spell and rather than banging our
heads against the wall with spelling lessons, etc., I helped my
daughter learn some of those coping skills. She liked that because it
helped her function better, immediately. Then she got AIM and started
talking, online, to friends. Her spelling was still so bad people
couldn't understand her, but one of her "coping skills," was to just
try again with a different possible spelling. Turned out that if she
wrote a word a whole bunch of different possible ways, she could
usually recognize the correct spelling when she saw it, even though
she couldn't just write it down correctly, the first time. So, if
someone didn't understand her, she'd just try again with a bit
different spelling. AND, she started to write stories - fan fiction -
online, too. For those she used spell checkers (which, as we all
know, only help so much), but, again, it was interesting that she
could nearly always pick the correct spelling out of the suggestions
made by the spell checker. Very slowly, her spelling was clearly
improving. She signed up for NANOWRIMO (National Novel Writing Month)
and wrote a 50,000 word novel in 30 days. Spelling wasn't great but
not NEARLY as bad as I'd thought it would be. She continued to write
and chat with friends, online, and to read a lot. She did NANOWRIMO
again the next year. And after it was done, she went back and edited
it and painstakingly checked spelling until every word was correct
and Lulu press, a self-publishing company, published one copy of each
book completed by NANOWRIMO writers. So she got a lovely bound
published copy of her book. That was last November. She's 15. In the
months since then, she's become an outstanding speller - she spells
easily, now. She still asks, once in a while, to make sure she's
right, but she nearly always IS right. Last night she wasn't sure if
it should be "resistance" or "resistence" - but as soon as she asked
out loud she said, "Oh, never mind, I know now."

I am SO glad that I didn't push her or insist on reading or spelling
lessons. I truly do not believe it would have helped her, I think it
would have created a power struggle between us and the main lessons
she would have learned would have been, "Learning is hard," and "I'm
not smart." Instead, I repeatedly pointed out the ways she WAS smart,
supported her in doing the things she was good at, the things she
loved, and put a high value on those things. I reassured her over and
over again, that reading would happen for her and I pointed out to
her how different people were different in so many ways. It helped
TREMENDOUSLY to have other families around who were also relaxed and
comfortable about later reading and who had kids who were later
readers. My daughter did read at 8, with isn't all that "late" - but
it was when she was showing no signs of learning to read at 5, 6, and
7, that things might have gone very differently, if I hadn't made the
decision to accept later reading as natural and normal "for her."

Other kids I know well were still not reading at 8, 9, 10, 11, and
even 12 or 13. They now read, read very very well, love books, love
learning. As older teens, they are well-educated, well-informed, and
well-read kids. If you want to hear more about later readers and how
wonderful it can be to support them in developing in their own way,
come to the Live and Learn conference and don't miss Dan Vilter's
talk - his son is turning 17 next week, didn't read until
very much later than the norm - and Dan has a LOT of insight to share
with those who are concerned about their later-reading children.

-pam

Nancy Wooton

On Jun 15, 2006, at 9:02 AM, April Morris wrote:

> My 15 year old son was working on a 4-H project this morning, he has
> to write a short summery of what he learned with his pet this year.
> The worst thing I did for this kid was try to show him spelling rules!
> He is a very orderly, linear type kid and he wants every word to fit
> into some rule. He wants a few basic rules that will apply to all
> words.  And we all know that the English language has more exceptions
> to the rules than words that follow the rules.....at least it feels
> that way to Karl!  Spelling is not his strong suit and watching him
> this morning and seeing his frustration for how words are spelled, a
> light bulb finally went off! I told him to forget the rules. He has an
> amazing ability to memorize. I told him to just remember how the words
> are spelled instead of trying to figure out a pattern and rule for
> them. He has been trying to spell using a formula. I think if he can
> switch gears to memorizing instead of using a formula, he'll soon be a
> whiz and spelling.


Years ago, I read about setting up a "Word Jail," for all those words
that won't follow the rules (this, of course, was for folks using some
kind of flash card system for learning vocabulary).

I made up a game while driving a long distance with my kids: rather
than asking the kids to spell, I spelled a word aloud and they figured
out what it was. It's a cool game; you have to visualize the letters
as you hear them, which is a different skill than spelling, or reading,
or writing.

Nancy
(BTW, it's "summary," although the weather today in San Diego is very
summery :-))) which illustrates the limitations of spell checkers!)

Janet

-=-Now my son almost 9 who was totally refusing to read the simplest of
stores readers 1,2,3, over the years has jumped to adult reading
material.-=-

If you mean readers, I would guess he refused because they are boring.  Maybe not, but that’s my first thought.

 

As to spelling, I’ve never understood why people get so concerned over it.  Rather the same way I feel about memorizing all those math facts.  Why?  We have calculators.  Eventually, I would think most kids would know them just by working with real math.  Same with spelling.  There are spell checkers, dictionaries, and older people to help.  I have an 8 yr old dd.  I spell any word that she asks.  I never make her look anything up.  She likes to type on the computer plus she has a blog.  She uses the spell checker, and that has helped quite a bit.  I’ve always thought it would be insulting to tell someone when they ask for a spelling “go look it up”.  I don’t understand that thinking.  They can take 3 to 5 minutes to look it up or I can reply immediately.  Almost seems like a punishment for not being a mature speller.  I’m sure the thought there is that by looking up the word they will learn to spell it faster and it will stay in their long term memory better.  I don’t know about that.  My older two both spell okay.  My oldest (16) isn’t what you call a natural born speller, but she does fine.  I still tell her how to spell words if she asks.  (I do the same for my husband.)  My 14 yr old dd is a great speller, but she likes words so it might be more natural for her.  Also, writing and spelling are not the same thing.  Don’t kill a passion for writing by making a spelling lesson out of it.  I’ve typed lots of stories for my girls as they dictated them.  I think that’s a great idea.  That way, he’ll see the correct spelling, too, and he won’t have to stress over making a mistake and will be able to concentrate on the story.

 

Janet

 

www.xanga.com/searching_for_willoughby

 

 

 

 

Sandra Dodd

-=-Years ago, I read about setting up a "Word Jail," for all those words
that won't follow the rules (this, of course, was for folks using some
kind of flash card system for learning vocabulary).-=-

I don't think it was for flash cards, though.  We had 3x5 cards but we didn't use them for flash  cards.   If we talked about a word's spelling and I was near the cards, I'd put it on a card, and either put it in the easy words that make sense, or the crazy words that don't, and we called it "word jail" too after I read that on AOL.  Someone had made a box and dressed it up like a jail and put in the "rules breaking" cards.    But all words follow SOME rules, or make some sense, though sometimes it's really old and the sounds have changed in the meantime.

-=-I made up a game while driving a long distance with my kids: rather
than asking the kids to spell, I spelled a word aloud and they figured
out what it was. It's a cool game; you have to visualize the letters
as you hear them, which is a different skill than spelling, or reading,
or writing.-=-

Ooh...   That would be kinda hard for me, but sounds fun.  Like a spelling bee turned inside out or something.

Sandra

Y_be_norml create_your_reality

>>>And there you have the whole answer! He wants to write a story,
and he
is clear about what help he wants from you to do it. Go for it!

Writing and spelling are two different skill sets anyway. Plenty of
talented writers aren't great spellers--that' s what spellcheck and
copy editors are for. And many, many great spellers are not good
writers.<<<
 
Good point!  I think I am confusing writing and spelling skills and what he is wanting to do.  I think it came form when I said something to him and he freaked out and said he couldn't do that because he couldn't spell. If I peruse spelling and writing with him it will discourage him form every wanting to write again.
 
I did teach him to read from birth and he was successfully completing jumpstart preschool and  kindergarten on the computer when he was 9 months old.  I was his mouse.  So when kindergarten came along I really thought he'd just start reading out loud. I knew he knew how to read but he would just freeze up if for a second he thought he was reading it wrong.  He is perfectionist.  I remember at about 2 1/2 we were looking at a gerbil but I mistakenly called it a hamster he corrected me and said gerbil. I asked how he knew he pointed to the sign. So I pushed for him to read out loud and read books to me, thinking obviously he was ready. The next few years were really bad.  He  shut down and refused to read anything and wouldn't even let us read to him. So I didn't want to repeat that mistake. We've just started coming back from that place.  He uses google and we have many computer programs, I love to spelling,  Disney learning read,  Jump starts, DK  dictionary, typing tutor and so much more. I just got him a new Scooby Doo computer program he finished it in less then 2 hours the entire game.   He's known how to read music from age 2 but every time he sees a new song he just freaks out saying he can't read it.  Really he did refuse to do read anything. Now that he is finally asking about spelling I am happily spelling for him without any pressure. We use the spell checker to get the spelling. He's just now finding it's something that he wants to do rather then what I had wanted him to do. So if I start to show him something like how to use the dictionary it better be a quick  lesson or I loose his interest,  if it's not easy for him he freezes.  And I'm sure he's still nervous I'm going to make him sit and do formal studies again. It's only been a 1 1/2  years since we've gone back to unschooling.  
 
It's very easy to step back into a more formal teaching and I knew we couldn't go there again. I knew he needed to write this story. He's been trying for some time.  I just couldn't get past that he had to do it by himself. Now that I think about it that just crazy thinking on my part.  
 
We do a lot of back door type reading, listening to stories on CD's TV and video games. He has great comprehension and a great imagination he act out movies with his action figures ,has long dialogs and voices for each charter. It was just hard for me to think of a back door type writing and spelling skills to help him to the next step. I was making it more difficult then need be.
 
As soon as I posted this morning  I went with my instincts and we began the story. He dictated it to me and he's so excited. He wanted to act it out as he tells me the story. We're going to add his drawings to the story then take it to staples where they will bind it in a book. He's so excited. 
 
His dream is to either be actor or co writer with Stan Lee on his next film. He wrote a letter to Stan Lee a few weeks ago.   I did try to get him to write in a journal and he dabbled with it drawing pictures but was frustrated because he wanted to write a story and he wasn't confident about his drawings.  I think making his own book will inspire him to do more which is what I want for him to be self-confident. It's nice to see him draw. Thanks for all your responses it helped a lot.  I appreciate your advise.
T   
 
 
I'm more like your husband Sandra,  spelling isn't my best subject, typing either.  but I keep trying Smiley emoticon 

Sandra Dodd

-=- I did teach him to read from birth-=-

I don't even want to know what you mean by that.  Be careful about putting things on this list that won't help people understand unschooling any better.  
He wasn't reading at birth, and if you were "teaching him to read" you might as well have been "teaching him to walk," because kids can and do learn to walk without lessons, and they can and do learn to read without lessons.

-=- I remember at about 2 1/2 we were looking at a gerbil but I mistakenly called it a hamster he corrected me and said gerbil. I asked how he knew he pointed to the sign. So I pushed for him to read out loud and read books to me, thinking obviously he was ready-=-

Knowing that a word doesn't say "hamster" (because there's no h, or because there's no t, or whatever he knew) isn't the same as being able to read cold and fluently.  Knowing a hammer from a screwdriver on sight doesn't mean one knows how to use an electric drill.

Knowing a hawk from a handsaw doesn't mean one knows whether to be or not to be.

(Stop me when you get it...) 
(Oh wait! ...)

Sandra




Pamela Sorooshian


On Jun 15, 2006, at 7:53 AM, thfamily3 wrote:

My instinct after writing this is to do the dictation but the 

schoolish part of me says no this is opportunity for him to learn 

spelling.

Any suggestion


ALWAYS do what he says HE wants - unless it will truly be dangerous or harmful. And, even then, try to find a way to make it work in a way that IS safe.

So - is taking dictation dangerous or harmful? Not at ALL. It will be fun and pleasurable. In fact, extend it by taking dictation, typing his story up in a word document, and submit it to Lulu.com and get it published and buy him a copy.

He'll read his own story over and over - WITH the correct spelling which YOU will be sure to use, right? <BEG>

(Even if he doesn't - getting a copy of his own book in the mail? How COOL will that be!!!!)

-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!

thfamily3

>>>>Knowing that a word doesn't say "hamster" (because there's no h,
or because there's no t, or whatever he knew)

He didn't just know it didn't say hamster he said " gerbil " to me.
He read it out loud to me. He was quite instant it was a gerbil. I
then asked how he knew it was a gerbil and not a hamster I thought he
might tell by the look of him. It was then he pointed to the sign
and said gerbil again. Very clearly which is why I looked at the sign
and read it my self because I thought it was a hamster and I was
surprised the sign said gerbil.

That was just one example of his early reading and comprehension.

I realize now he wasn't ready for reading in the sense of reading out
loud or chapter books demonstrating his ability in a formal way. But
everywhere else in society it is pushed to be a early reader no
matter what damage it may cause.

>>>Be careful about putting things on this list that won't help
people understand unschooling any better. <<<

IMO Bad example of things are a good way to see unschooling better
and for others to see the damage it can cause. I don't put it out
there as a wow try this, because it didn't work and damaged the
relationship. I can't ignore that we did this method of early reading
with him. It didn't work in a positive way or the way we expected and
it had negative consequences, unrealistic expectation and caused much
damage to our relationship.

A good example of what not to do.

T

Sandra Dodd

-=-He was quite instant it was a gerbil. I
then asked how he knew it was a gerbil and not a hamster I thought he
might tell by the look of him. It was then he pointed to the sign
and said gerbil again. Very clearly which is why I looked at the sign
and read it my self because I thought it was a hamster and I was
surprised the sign said gerbil. -=-

But his choices were those small animals with which he was familiar, right?  It was multiple choice.  It was a hamster, gerbil, mouse, rat or guinea pig, under those circumstances, wasn't it?  

And there are millions of little boys (and maybe hundreds of thousands of little girls) who can name dinosaurs without being able to read.  They might be able to tell if a word matches the dinosaur's picture they're looking at.  That doesn't mean they can read just any old 20-letter word.

Teachers, former teachers, school kids, former school kids, and unschooled kids who have played with crayons and paper placemats at restaurants know that matching, multiple choice and true/false are easier than "short answer" or then reading comprehension tests.

-=-But
everywhere else in society it is pushed to be a early reader no
matter what damage it may cause. -=-

Not everywhere.  And not on this list.

-=-IMO Bad example of things are a good way to see unschooling better
and for others to see the damage it can cause-=-

All of us know already.

-=-I can't ignore that we did this method of early reading
with him.-=-

But the list isn't for the purpose of reciting all the things we've done wrong.  It's for discussing the things we are doing right.  It might seem like a subtle difference, but it's a profound difference.
You can't ignore it, but the rest of us can, and should.

Thanks,

Sandra


Kim H

Hi there,
 
Not sure why but some of the posts of late are coming out really, really small. Some very hard to read. Any ideas, Sandra?
 
Kim
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: I need some input about spelling

-=-He was quite instant it was a gerbil. I
then asked how he knew it was a gerbil and not a hamster I thought he
might tell by the look of him. It was then he pointed to the sign
and said gerbil again. Very clearly which is why I looked at the sign
and read it my self because I thought it was a hamster and I was
surprised the sign said gerbil. -=-


But his choices were those small animals with which he was familiar, right?  It was multiple choice.  It was a hamster, gerbil, mouse, rat or guinea pig, under those circumstances, wasn't it?  

And there are millions of little boys (and maybe hundreds of thousands of little girls) who can name dinosaurs without being able to read.  They might be able to tell if a word matches the dinosaur's picture they're looking at.  That doesn't mean they can read just any old 20-letter word.

Teachers, former teachers, school kids, former school kids, and unschooled kids who have played with crayons and paper placemats at restaurants know that matching, multiple choice and true/false are easier than "short answer" or then reading comprehension tests.

-=-But
everywhere else in society it is pushed to be a early reader no
matter what damage it may cause. -=-

Not everywhere.  And not on this list.

-=-IMO Bad example of things are a good way to see unschooling better
and for others to see the damage it can cause-=-

All of us know already.

-=-I can't ignore that we did this method of early reading
with him.-=-

But the list isn't for the purpose of reciting all the things we've done wrong.  It's for discussing the things we are doing right.  It might seem like a subtle difference, but it's a profound difference.
You can't ignore it, but the rest of us can, and should.

Thanks,

Sandra


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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 16, 2006, at 3:07 AM, Kim H wrote:

> Not sure why but some of the posts of late are coming out really,
> really small. Some very hard to read. Any ideas, Sandra?
>

For some reason the list had been reset to send attachments.

I've changed it back to have them stripped again.

Unless Sandra did it on purpose in which case we'll swap tips on how
to make mail readers display the text bigger ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 15, 2006, at 10:44 PM, thfamily3 wrote:

> I can't ignore that we did this method of early reading
> with him. It didn't work in a positive way or the way we expected and
> it had negative consequences

There are two points.

One: Early reading wasn't the negative. It was not listening to what
the child said he wanted and didn't want to do. So what you
experienced is more universal than trying to get a child to read
early. It applies to any areas of a child's life we try to mold to
our liking against a child's wishes. Schools try to push all sorts of
information and skills into kids and mold them into "college prepared
products" but when the child has no interest, one result can be
pulling back and never wanting to have anything to do with that
knowledge or those skills.

Two: From your story it appears you believe you taught him to read.

Some kids figure out reading at 2 because that's the way their brains
are wired but a parent can't begin with any infant and have them
reading by 2.

And it doesn't help anyone unschool to think that there's an
advantage *to the child* even if there were some program to have any
child reading at 2. Why would 2 yos need to read? How would it help
them to be better 2 yos?

Not that a 2 yo who does figure out reading should be stopped! ;-)
Just as with any unschooled child, help them do what they're trying
to do and listen to them when their actions say back off.

As you point out our society is full of messages that the earlier the
better for all things academic. Have them read at 2, calculus at 6,
Harvard at 8.

But unschoolers want people to think about what purpose is there *to
a child* to rush through childhood? What advantage *to the child* is
there in spending time at 3 trying to do things they will do
effortlessly at 12? Getting young kids to do older kid and adult
things just steals time away from them doing 2 yo and 3 yo and 4 yo
things that they *can't* do when they're older.

Trying to find ways to get typical kids to do things that geniuses
often do spontaneously doesn't turn typical kids into geniuses.

(Note, that isn't commentary on what you believe. It's commentary on
the idea of getting early academics into kids.)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Not sure why but some of the posts of late are coming out really,
really small. Some very hard to read. Any ideas, Sandra?-=-


No, sorry; I have no idea. It seemed to happen when they re-did
yahoogroups. If anyone knows where we can change settings, I'd like
to know too.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-For some reason the list had been reset to send attachments.

I've changed it back to have them stripped again.-=-

Did that cause small text?


Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 16, 2006, at 9:41 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Did that cause small text?

Yes. The attachment option must allow HTML text or something.

I wanted the attachments on a smaller list and now the print comes
through in a variety of sizes and colors ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-
I wanted the attachments on a smaller list and now the print comes
through in a variety of sizes and colors ;-)-=-

I wouldn't mind a variety at all, if we could change the default to
be bigger.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 16, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> I wouldn't mind a variety at all, if we could change the default to
> be bigger.

When I changed the other list I checked Yahoo Help and poked about
and couldn't find anything that would create some minimum font size
or some default other than what's coming through now. There was
nothing as far as I could see.

And I don't think you can have different font sizes without
attachments and attachments can spread viruses and lets through the
Yahoo ads as well as any picture signatures people attach. When I had
a slower connection (32,000 bps) having attachments made mail
practically useless. It was taking several seconds to open each
email. :-/

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim H

Everything's coming out OkKnow - no small print today! Thanks to whoever fixed it!

Kim
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Posts with small text



On Jun 16, 2006, at 10:56 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> I wouldn't mind a variety at all, if we could change the default to
> be bigger.

When I changed the other list I checked Yahoo Help and poked about
and couldn't find anything that would create some minimum font size
or some default other than what's coming through now. There was
nothing as far as I could see.

And I don't think you can have different font sizes without
attachments and attachments can spread viruses and lets through the
Yahoo ads as well as any picture signatures people attach. When I had
a slower connection (32,000 bps) having attachments made mail
practically useless. It was taking several seconds to open each
email. :-/

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela S.

Several days ago when this topic was first introduced, I wrote a lengthy
reply. I felt like I could finally contribute to help someone else.
Unfortunately, I sat down to write it as my sink was filling with water to
wash the dishes because my dishwasher wasn't working right. I forgot about
the running water until my kids came in from swimming and told me it was all
over the kitchen. <sigh> It had run down into my dh's office below,
wrecking books and computer parts, etc. Sometimes I feel like I am getting
my come-uppance because I used to complain, in my younger days, about other
people's inability to multi-task. Seems it gets harder all the time for me.




So, after all the clean up, I came back to the computer only to find that an
error had occurred in Firefox and it shut down without my having saved the
post, which was written on the yahoo site not in my email program. <bigger
sigh> Since that day I've been quite busy and haven't managed to sit back
down and get my thoughts written out. (We went to Pony Club Dressage Rally
on Saturday and the girls' team took 5th place, which was AWESOME! We were
gone from 5:15 a.m. till 8:15 p.m. though, very long day)



My advice was to please take dictation for the youngster who wanted his mom
to write his story down. My youngest dd's (9) inspiration for learning to
write came from her desire to communicate with pen pals and to get her
stories down. She began having pen pals at 4.5 years old (older cousins and
their friends) and I had to point to each letter for her to copy so she
could write to them. She loved it and that was her first interest in the
written word. Sometimes when her arm or hand got tired, I'd write for her.




Shortly after that, she began story telling stories and I would take
dictation for her for hours. After about a three hour stint I would need a
break and she would be frustrated because she still had a story to tell.
(We have MANY on our computer and they are such a treasure!) We solved the
problem by getting her a tape recorder and then I could type them at my
leisure. But just having the tape recorder to tape them also made her feel
empowered to not have to wait on me to do the typing. Sometimes we never
got them typed out but she felt good about telling her stories.



What always amazed me was that I often couldn't imagine how she was going to
tie all the different chapters together in the end because they all seemed
too disconnected, but she always pulled it off. I found it amazing. I have
a much more linear way of thinking.



Anyway, I never turned it into a lesson, yet she learned to spell and
punctuate very well regardless of that. It really all started to come
together when she got her own email address and began writing to friends.
She now has several pen pals that she got through Young Rider (common
interest of horses) that she writes to by email and snail mail. She also has
one email horse-friend that she met on neopets that she writes to almost
daily. This girl is 14 yo but she also loves to ride dressage, which is
Lilly's riding style of choice.



Sometimes Lilly doesn't choose to bother to punctuate all her emails
correctly, but I know she knows how to. She learned it by watching me
punctuate her stories and letters when she was done writing them. She often
now types her own stories and she's quick on the keyboard although she still
hunts and pecks. I just happened to write something on one of the white
boards in the barn the other day and just out of curiosity, I asked the
girls if they could punctuate it and they both did it correctly. (9 yo
missed a comma, I think) The sentence was: Sugar says, "don't forget to
fly spray and sunblock me."



I still find it so encouraging to see that as the kids see a need for
something, they are quick to learn it, whether or not it is an easy thing to
do.



I was also going to comment on the summer library programs to get kids
reading. I was going to say that my kids signed up one year when they were
maybe 5 and 7 and they were so disappointed by the prizes. We just wrote
down the books that we read anyway and that was enough (I could read to them
at that age) to qualified for the cheesey prizes they gave out. They gave
the kids plastic trolls. They never wanted to do it again.that is till
yesterday.



We were at Barnes and Noble and when we checked out (bought some new
madlibs, which my kids love) they asked if we were in the summer reading
program. They sent us home with the forms which I thought we'd throw away,
but alas, dd (9) was interested when she learned that you can get a free
book. You have to read 8 books, then you get a free book. (and you don't
have to buy them there) As she sat in the chair at home later on reading a
book so she could mark it down, she looked up and commented, "If they have
this program to bribe children to read, why do they give them a free book as
a prize? I would think the kids who need to be bribed to read wouldn't want
another book that their parents will probably make them read." LOL! I
thought that was very insightful. She went on to say that they should give
away money or something that kids who don't like to read would like. She
went on to say that she likes to read and couldn't wait to get a free book.
That said, she's only read a handful of books in her young life so far. She
does read constantly while playing games, emailing, playing online games,
reading short non-fiction snippets, etc. The books she usually chooses are
not easy reader books, but pretty long chapter books. She did however, look
at the length of the books that she would be reading in order to get the
free book and she chose based on books that not only interested her, but
weren't TOO long so that she could finish 8 of them before summer is over.
(She picked a Junie B. Jones book for the program but she is also reading a
Phantom Stallion book on the side that is much longer and more difficult to
read.) She read one Junie B. Jones book in one sitting last night. I am so
glad that I didn't push reading and that I've let the girls come to it in
their own time and way. Hearing the words, "I love to read" makes me happy.
That was my goal for my kids with regard to reading. I just wanted them to
like it.





Angela

game-enthusiast@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gold Standard

>>Hearing the words, "I love to read" makes me happy.<<

I just wanted to add to this that I have not ever heard those words from my
kids, but it's okay. Reading is just one thing of a gazillion that they
could love, and indeed they do love many different things. All of them read
just fine. I'd say two of my four read occasionally for enjoyment. Mostly
they read in daily life as needed/wanted. They read a whole bunch on the
internet, myspace, video games, etc. Two of them are reading a driving
manual right now.

Jacki
Andrew 17
Max 16
Hannah 14
Cameron 12

Sandra Dodd

-=->>Hearing the words, "I love to read" makes me happy.<<

-=-I just wanted to add to this that I have not ever heard those
words from my
kids, but it's okay-=-

Yesterday Holly said that now she feels like she would be able to
handle anything she might ever need to read. I told her I didn't
know she'd been worried about it. She said she was a little worried
about driver's ed (which she intends to take in November), but she's
not worried anymore. I guess she had picked up some kids' books and
just flown through them. She's read several "young adult novels" and
reads on the internet quite a bit. Oh, I asked "even cursive?" and
she said no, not cursive. The other day there was something or other
�a letter from ten years ago or so�and I read it and summarized what
was in it as I was reading. When it was clear to her that I was
reading something from the closing paragraph, she said "You can read
cursive as fast as you can read print?" I said yes, if it was
fairly clear or I knew the person's handwriting.

Another thing Holly can't do, at 14, besides read cursive fluently is
to scan. She can't scan a list or directory or menu. She doesn't
know yet how to ignore the words she doesn't want to read. She's
asked me sometimes how it is that I can find things on a menu, so I
showed her what I skip. Drinks, beef, seafood�I'm headed for chicken
or combinations or specials. When I had kids, I looked at the kids'
menu first. Somehow Kirby and Marty had no problem with that, and
just as I was typing this I think I've realized why. Most of their
reading started off being gaming manuals and little rules booklets
for card games and complicated board games. They skimmed before they
really read, probably.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela S.

--->>Hearing the words, "I love to read" makes me happy.<<

I just wanted to add to this that I have not ever heard those words from my
kids, but it's okay. Reading is just one thing of a gazillion that they
could love, and indeed they do love many different things.----



About a year or two ago I came to terms with the fact that my kids may never
enjoy reading the way I do. And I am really ok with that. (and my older dd
has never uttered those words although she reads a lot, mostly magazines and
non-fiction) However, I get so much pleasure and information from reading
that I still have always hoped that they would one day find it an enjoyable
thing to do too. Hearing my dd utter the words, "I love reading" really
does make me happy. I am happy that she has found one more thing that she
enjoys. I hope that she gets as much enjoyment out of reading as I have
over the years. I enjoy fiction and non-fiction. I enjoy the internet,
email, and these lists. Reading has really broadened my horizons and I hope
that it does the same for my children. It makes me happy to see that they
are happy learners.



Funny story: My younger dd has been going with a public schooled friend to
a teacher's house after school for tutoring once a week. (the friend gets
tutored and Lilly just goes along) The teacher just so happens to be my
husband's aunt who, when she heard we were going to homeschool 6 years ago
said, "I am very sorry for your children." Ack! Anyway, somehow or another
Lilly got invited once because the teacher and the friend were at the barn
together where both girls take lessons and the friend asked if she could
come along. Ever since that one time, Lilly has been invited to come every
week because the friend not only acts better when Lilly is there, but she
also cooperates better for her lessons. The teacher often makes a game of
the lessons and Lilly happily plays along. The teacher has commented
several times to my husband that Lilly is such a pleasure to have around and
such a nice kid. I don't place a lot of value on her opinion for a couple
reasons, but it made me chuckle to hear it.



Angela

game-enthusiast@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-It had run down into my dh's office below,
wrecking books and computer parts, etc-=-

SO sorry to hear that. I grew up with a sink that couldn't run over
(unless the second sink was stopped up) but this house has one that
is up above the surface of the counter, which it shouldn't ideally
be. I've overrun it more than once.

yikes.

Responses like yours are good no matter when they come. People join
the list every day or so, and people will benefit from your stories
and suggestions!

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]