Adults and unschooling
Maisha Khalfani
I want to thank all of you for your responses. It was helpful for ME to view the websites. It gave me confidence that I can trust my children to be who they are meant to be.
I figure if I believe in any kind of Higher Being, and that Higher Being trusts me to learn and grow in the way that's best for me, then I should do the same with my children.
Thanks again
Maisha
"Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit, and dance with the Earth in all her glorious colors." ~ Henry David Thoreau (1817 - 1862)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I figure if I believe in any kind of Higher Being, and that Higher Being trusts me to learn and grow in the way that's best for me, then I should do the same with my children.
Thanks again
Maisha
"Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit, and dance with the Earth in all her glorious colors." ~ Henry David Thoreau (1817 - 1862)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 27, 2006, at 10:31 PM, Maisha Khalfani wrote:
I'm veering off to a side point now.
On Schuyler Waynforth's blog I found a link to an essay (you can
listen or read) by Penn Jillette (a pretty smart guy).
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557
He said (among other things):
"Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by
kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be
more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time
around.
. . . .
Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family,
and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an
omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help
or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to
help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less
suffering in the future."
One of the most revealing things I was ever asked by another
homeschooler was by someone who asked (in an online context, before
unschooling tended to have its own areas) how, without religion,
could my kids learn morality.
Yikes. WITH religion, they often don't "learn morality," they learn
rules and fear. Then if one of them starts to doubt the religion or
the God, as a teen, all their rules are shed! They had no reasons at
all not to murder and commit fornication and steal and lie except
their fear of eternal damnation or immediate punishment. If they
leave their parents' homes and decide to veer off from those rules
they often seem to go "down a dark path," or crazy. They drink and
hoot and use language that would make their grandmothers' faint,
without regard to who's being inconvenienced or offended.
They haven't learned morality. They learned to pretend to be moral.
They had no morality of their own. They were wearing it like a "real
men fear Jesus" t-shirt that they could take off, without fear.
If one of my kids started acting immorally I would know there was
something seriously wrong with him, in the realm of brain damage.
They're considerate and attentive to their friends because that's how
they have been treated and expected to act, without threat, without
punishment, but because it makes simple everyday sense.
If a child goes to bed because he's sleepy, that's going to bed
because it makes sense to go to bed.
If a child goes to bed because it's 8:00, then when that rule is
gone, the child is likely to stay up past the time he's sleepy, just
because he can.
Who would eat six donuts? Someone who has been limited to one or
two. "NO MORE. Just two."
A third donut will someday taste like maturity to them, or like
freedom. Real Men Eat Donuts, all the donuts they want, but little
children are measured and controlled.
My kids learned years ago that half a donut can be quite enough.
http://sandradodd.com/food
Really.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I figure if I believe in any kind of Higher Being, and that HigherEven if you don't believe in a higher being. <g>
> Being trusts me to learn and grow in the way that's best for me,
> then I should do the same with my children.
I'm veering off to a side point now.
On Schuyler Waynforth's blog I found a link to an essay (you can
listen or read) by Penn Jillette (a pretty smart guy).
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557
He said (among other things):
"Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by
kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be
more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time
around.
. . . .
Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family,
and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an
omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help
or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to
help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less
suffering in the future."
One of the most revealing things I was ever asked by another
homeschooler was by someone who asked (in an online context, before
unschooling tended to have its own areas) how, without religion,
could my kids learn morality.
Yikes. WITH religion, they often don't "learn morality," they learn
rules and fear. Then if one of them starts to doubt the religion or
the God, as a teen, all their rules are shed! They had no reasons at
all not to murder and commit fornication and steal and lie except
their fear of eternal damnation or immediate punishment. If they
leave their parents' homes and decide to veer off from those rules
they often seem to go "down a dark path," or crazy. They drink and
hoot and use language that would make their grandmothers' faint,
without regard to who's being inconvenienced or offended.
They haven't learned morality. They learned to pretend to be moral.
They had no morality of their own. They were wearing it like a "real
men fear Jesus" t-shirt that they could take off, without fear.
If one of my kids started acting immorally I would know there was
something seriously wrong with him, in the realm of brain damage.
They're considerate and attentive to their friends because that's how
they have been treated and expected to act, without threat, without
punishment, but because it makes simple everyday sense.
If a child goes to bed because he's sleepy, that's going to bed
because it makes sense to go to bed.
If a child goes to bed because it's 8:00, then when that rule is
gone, the child is likely to stay up past the time he's sleepy, just
because he can.
Who would eat six donuts? Someone who has been limited to one or
two. "NO MORE. Just two."
A third donut will someday taste like maturity to them, or like
freedom. Real Men Eat Donuts, all the donuts they want, but little
children are measured and controlled.
My kids learned years ago that half a donut can be quite enough.
http://sandradodd.com/food
Really.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
On Mar 28, 2006, at 5:23 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
helmets. Those kids just yearn for the day when they won't HAVE to,
boast about showing in Western classes that don't require them, and
violate the rule when the stable owners aren't around. Nobody makes
*me* wear a helmet every time I get on a horse, but I do; I'm a heck of
a lot smarter than those kids, and I'll keep my brains intact, thank
you <g>
Nancy
> Who would eat six donuts? Someone who has been limited to one orMy boarding stable has a rule that kids -- those under 18 -- must wear
> two. "NO MORE. Just two."
> A third donut will someday taste like maturity to them, or like
> freedom. Real Men Eat Donuts, all the donuts they want, but little
> children are measured and controlled.
helmets. Those kids just yearn for the day when they won't HAVE to,
boast about showing in Western classes that don't require them, and
violate the rule when the stable owners aren't around. Nobody makes
*me* wear a helmet every time I get on a horse, but I do; I'm a heck of
a lot smarter than those kids, and I'll keep my brains intact, thank
you <g>
Nancy
Drew & Tami
With absolutely no intention of starting a discussion about religion (or
lack thereof) and morals, I simply want to say : "Amen" to this.
men fear Jesus" t-shirt that they could take off, without fear.
If one of my kids started acting immorally I would know there was
something seriously wrong with him, in the realm of brain damage.
They're considerate and attentive to their friends because that's how
they have been treated and expected to act, without threat, without
punishment, but because it makes simple everyday sense. <<<
Whenever the issue of morality comes up, I think of this:
Children Learn What They Live
By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.
If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and
in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in
which to live.
Copyright C 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte
When I was little, lots of people who had kids living in their house had it
framed and hung on the wall. Weird, because it didn't seem like the parents
really believed this. We didn't have this poem in my house, but my parents
and my grandmother (who lived next door) "got" it...my parents were pretty
young and poor and both worked alot. I was pretty much an accident, and they
were unprepared to be parents. My grandma mostly raised me and she adored
me. My whole life, I could do no wrong in her eyes, and she always treated
me like her best friend. She is my model for life with my kids.
We know a family who lives one way: hostility, fear, shame and ridicule--
but expects sweetness and light from their children. I was talking to the
mom yesterday and she complained of the oldest girl..."she's been a problem
lately. I had to spank her 10 times yesterday." HUH?? My response of,
"So--how's that working out for you?" was drowned out by a screaming
child-- end of that conversation. I find her kids to be unpleasant, mean
and sneaky.
I think the idea of children learning what they live is so simple, and I
truly wonder why people work so hard to resist the notion.
Tami, who was raised Catholic, and now as a Lutheran, rarely uses the word
"amen" unscripted.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lack thereof) and morals, I simply want to say : "Amen" to this.
>>>They haven't learned morality. They learned to pretend to be moral.They had no morality of their own. They were wearing it like a "real
men fear Jesus" t-shirt that they could take off, without fear.
If one of my kids started acting immorally I would know there was
something seriously wrong with him, in the realm of brain damage.
They're considerate and attentive to their friends because that's how
they have been treated and expected to act, without threat, without
punishment, but because it makes simple everyday sense. <<<
Whenever the issue of morality comes up, I think of this:
Children Learn What They Live
By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.
If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and
in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in
which to live.
Copyright C 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte
When I was little, lots of people who had kids living in their house had it
framed and hung on the wall. Weird, because it didn't seem like the parents
really believed this. We didn't have this poem in my house, but my parents
and my grandmother (who lived next door) "got" it...my parents were pretty
young and poor and both worked alot. I was pretty much an accident, and they
were unprepared to be parents. My grandma mostly raised me and she adored
me. My whole life, I could do no wrong in her eyes, and she always treated
me like her best friend. She is my model for life with my kids.
We know a family who lives one way: hostility, fear, shame and ridicule--
but expects sweetness and light from their children. I was talking to the
mom yesterday and she complained of the oldest girl..."she's been a problem
lately. I had to spank her 10 times yesterday." HUH?? My response of,
"So--how's that working out for you?" was drowned out by a screaming
child-- end of that conversation. I find her kids to be unpleasant, mean
and sneaky.
I think the idea of children learning what they live is so simple, and I
truly wonder why people work so hard to resist the notion.
Tami, who was raised Catholic, and now as a Lutheran, rarely uses the word
"amen" unscripted.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 28, 2006, at 12:08 PM, Nancy Wooton wrote:
gets them off in April.
I don't make them take care of them, meaning I don't check up on
them, or count their floss threaders to see if they're using them or
ask Holly if she's wearing her rubber bands at night. Both of them
take pretty good care of them, sometimes slacking for a few days,
sometimes doing a long thorough cleaning, just because they want to.
The orthodontist and the techs have rarely had anything to say. One
day it was that Holly could do better on her molars, and other times
have been praise that the kids even felt guilty about. Holly is
truthful too, and tells them when she's been forgetting rubber bands,
or that she want camping and didn't take any, or whatever it is.
They're not taking care of their braces because I "make them" or I
"said to," they're doing it because the things the orthodontist told
them made sense to them, and they really understood it. When they
remind me that they can't have popcorn or nuts (which I do forget
sometimes), what they mean by that is to remind me that it wouldn't
be good for their wires, and might mess things up and be hard to
clean out. They don't mean "or I'll get caught."
They're just not trained to be sneaky.
Sandra
> My boarding stable has a rule that kids -- those under 18 -- must wearMarty and Holly both have braces. Holly has had them longer, and
> helmets. Those kids just yearn for the day when they won't HAVE to,
> boast about showing in Western classes that don't require them, and
> violate the rule when the stable owners aren't around. Nobody makes
> *me* wear a helmet every time I get on a horse, but I do; I'm a
> heck of
> a lot smarter than those kids, and I'll keep my brains intact, thank
> you <g>
gets them off in April.
I don't make them take care of them, meaning I don't check up on
them, or count their floss threaders to see if they're using them or
ask Holly if she's wearing her rubber bands at night. Both of them
take pretty good care of them, sometimes slacking for a few days,
sometimes doing a long thorough cleaning, just because they want to.
The orthodontist and the techs have rarely had anything to say. One
day it was that Holly could do better on her molars, and other times
have been praise that the kids even felt guilty about. Holly is
truthful too, and tells them when she's been forgetting rubber bands,
or that she want camping and didn't take any, or whatever it is.
They're not taking care of their braces because I "make them" or I
"said to," they're doing it because the things the orthodontist told
them made sense to them, and they really understood it. When they
remind me that they can't have popcorn or nuts (which I do forget
sometimes), what they mean by that is to remind me that it wouldn't
be good for their wires, and might mess things up and be hard to
clean out. They don't mean "or I'll get caught."
They're just not trained to be sneaky.
Sandra
Angela S.
<<My boarding stable has a rule that kids -- those under 18 -- must wear
helmets. Those kids just yearn for the day when they won't HAVE to,
boast about showing in Western classes that don't require them, and
violate the rule when the stable owners aren't around. Nobody makes
*me* wear a helmet every time I get on a horse, but I do; I'm a heck of
a lot smarter than those kids, and I'll keep my brains intact, thank
you <g>>>
That's interesting. My always unschooled kids happily wear their helmets
when they ride a horse or a bike. In fact, they are the first to point out
when someone else (on tv or where ever) isn't wearing a helmet and to
comment on how stupid it is. However, I know many children who are like
that (whether its about helmets, food, staying up late, etc) and I honestly
think it's because their lives are filled with way too many rules.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
helmets. Those kids just yearn for the day when they won't HAVE to,
boast about showing in Western classes that don't require them, and
violate the rule when the stable owners aren't around. Nobody makes
*me* wear a helmet every time I get on a horse, but I do; I'm a heck of
a lot smarter than those kids, and I'll keep my brains intact, thank
you <g>>>
That's interesting. My always unschooled kids happily wear their helmets
when they ride a horse or a bike. In fact, they are the first to point out
when someone else (on tv or where ever) isn't wearing a helmet and to
comment on how stupid it is. However, I know many children who are like
that (whether its about helmets, food, staying up late, etc) and I honestly
think it's because their lives are filled with way too many rules.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 28, 2006, at 5:28 PM, Angela S. wrote:
longest because he grew up stifled with rules and reminders and lack
of choices.
My kids wear seatbelts because it's the law and it seems like a good
idea to them.
I'm not a seatbelt nazi, but I wear one when I'm driving or when I'm
awake and sitting. On long trips I will sleep without one. If it's
raining, snowing or the driver is a teen, I'm more cautious. No
magical safety.
Sandra
> However, I know many children who are likeI wear seatbelts because my kids want me to. Keith resisted the
> that (whether its about helmets, food, staying up late, etc) and I
> honestly
> think it's because their lives are filled with way too many rules.
longest because he grew up stifled with rules and reminders and lack
of choices.
My kids wear seatbelts because it's the law and it seems like a good
idea to them.
I'm not a seatbelt nazi, but I wear one when I'm driving or when I'm
awake and sitting. On long trips I will sleep without one. If it's
raining, snowing or the driver is a teen, I'm more cautious. No
magical safety.
Sandra
[email protected]
<<I honestly think it is because their lives are filled with way too many rules...>>
I think a lot of it has to do with personality and with how situations are handled and with what seems important to the child in question.
My 7yo has hepatitis C. He understands to be careful with his blood and when the other kids take a sip of their dad's beer, Danny will state he "can't" have any because he has hepatitis and it might hurt his liver.....On the other hand, Danny often eats till he throws up because he is proud of his eating ability (skinny kid but can eat like you wouldn't believe), refuses to wear shoes or jackets most of the time (even when he is shivering because he just feels constricted with too many clothes), has never worn a bike helmut and wears a seatbelt only under mild duress (I gotta talk him into it).
My 15yo happily follows every "rule", (safety, societal or otherwise). To her they make sense and the world just runs better with them.
Julie S.
I think a lot of it has to do with personality and with how situations are handled and with what seems important to the child in question.
My 7yo has hepatitis C. He understands to be careful with his blood and when the other kids take a sip of their dad's beer, Danny will state he "can't" have any because he has hepatitis and it might hurt his liver.....On the other hand, Danny often eats till he throws up because he is proud of his eating ability (skinny kid but can eat like you wouldn't believe), refuses to wear shoes or jackets most of the time (even when he is shivering because he just feels constricted with too many clothes), has never worn a bike helmut and wears a seatbelt only under mild duress (I gotta talk him into it).
My 15yo happily follows every "rule", (safety, societal or otherwise). To her they make sense and the world just runs better with them.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela S." <game-enthusiast@...>
Date: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:28 pm
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Adults and unschooling
> <<My boarding stable has a rule that kids -- those under 18 --
> must wear
> helmets. Those kids just yearn for the day when they won't HAVE
> to,
> boast about showing in Western classes that don't require them,
> and
> violate the rule when the stable owners aren't around. Nobody
> makes
> *me* wear a helmet every time I get on a horse, but I do; I'm a
> heck of
> a lot smarter than those kids, and I'll keep my brains intact,
> thank
> you <g>>>
>
> That's interesting. My always unschooled kids happily wear their
> helmetswhen they ride a horse or a bike. In fact, they are the
> first to point out
> when someone else (on tv or where ever) isn't wearing a helmet and to
> comment on how stupid it is. However, I know many children who
> are like
> that (whether its about helmets, food, staying up late, etc) and I
> honestlythink it's because their lives are filled with way too
> many rules.
>
> Angela
> game-enthusiast@...
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
katherand2003
See.. I've tried to explain how nonChristians know morality but failed
because I grew up surrounded by Christians. My language is too well
entrenched in the old slogans of religions and religiosities to give
the thought a consistent voice. I've seen it lived by people I've
known for years but I couldn't describe it.
Thanks for posting. Very helpful for clear thinking.
Kathe
because I grew up surrounded by Christians. My language is too well
entrenched in the old slogans of religions and religiosities to give
the thought a consistent voice. I've seen it lived by people I've
known for years but I couldn't describe it.
Thanks for posting. Very helpful for clear thinking.
Kathe
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 10:31 PM, Maisha Khalfani wrote:
>
> > I figure if I believe in any kind of Higher Being, and that Higher
> > Being trusts me to learn and grow in the way that's best for me,
> > then I should do the same with my children.
>
>
> Even if you don't believe in a higher being. <g>
>
> I'm veering off to a side point now.
>
> On Schuyler Waynforth's blog I found a link to an essay (you can
> listen or read) by Penn Jillette (a pretty smart guy).
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557
>
> He said (among other things):
> "Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by
> kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be
> more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time
> around.
> . . . .
> Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family,
> and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an
> omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help
> or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to
> help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less
> suffering in the future."
>
> One of the most revealing things I was ever asked by another
> homeschooler was by someone who asked (in an online context, before
> unschooling tended to have its own areas) how, without religion,
> could my kids learn morality.
>
> Yikes. WITH religion, they often don't "learn morality," they learn
> rules and fear. Then if one of them starts to doubt the religion or
> the God, as a teen, all their rules are shed! They had no reasons at
> all not to murder and commit fornication and steal and lie except
> their fear of eternal damnation or immediate punishment. If they
> leave their parents' homes and decide to veer off from those rules
> they often seem to go "down a dark path," or crazy. They drink and
> hoot and use language that would make their grandmothers' faint,
> without regard to who's being inconvenienced or offended.
>
> They haven't learned morality. They learned to pretend to be moral.
> They had no morality of their own. They were wearing it like a "real
> men fear Jesus" t-shirt that they could take off, without fear.
>
> If one of my kids started acting immorally I would know there was
> something seriously wrong with him, in the realm of brain damage.
> They're considerate and attentive to their friends because that's how
> they have been treated and expected to act, without threat, without
> punishment, but because it makes simple everyday sense.
>
> If a child goes to bed because he's sleepy, that's going to bed
> because it makes sense to go to bed.
> If a child goes to bed because it's 8:00, then when that rule is
> gone, the child is likely to stay up past the time he's sleepy, just
> because he can.
>
> Who would eat six donuts? Someone who has been limited to one or
> two. "NO MORE. Just two."
> A third donut will someday taste like maturity to them, or like
> freedom. Real Men Eat Donuts, all the donuts they want, but little
> children are measured and controlled.
>
> My kids learned years ago that half a donut can be quite enough.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/food
>
> Really.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>