deschooling
Dawn Falbe
For one thing, you're shaming her. She WANTS to be innocent in the
situation, and if you keep on telling her she has options you will rob her
of
her innocence. - Sandra Dodd
I have refrained from saying anything to her and I just think it instead. I
think you mean she wants to stay a VICTIM in the situation, instead of
seeing herself as a VOLUNTEER.
DAWN
********************
Dawn Falbe
Astrologer Coach
(520) 312-5300
********************
www.astrologerdawn.com
dawn@...
Enlightening you on how to discover and live your Soul Purpose
"The people who get on in this world are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." - George
Bernard Shaw
"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school" -
George Bernard Shaw
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
situation, and if you keep on telling her she has options you will rob her
of
her innocence. - Sandra Dodd
I have refrained from saying anything to her and I just think it instead. I
think you mean she wants to stay a VICTIM in the situation, instead of
seeing herself as a VOLUNTEER.
DAWN
********************
Dawn Falbe
Astrologer Coach
(520) 312-5300
********************
www.astrologerdawn.com
dawn@...
Enlightening you on how to discover and live your Soul Purpose
"The people who get on in this world are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, make them." - George
Bernard Shaw
"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school" -
George Bernard Shaw
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
Dawn Falbe wrote:
angry at the school system if they are treating her or her children
poorly and are generally failing to live up to the big PR job many of us
have been sold about public school.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I know your friend sounds like a pain, but I think she has a right to be
> I have refrained from saying anything to her and I just think it
> instead. I
> think you mean she wants to stay a VICTIM in the situation, instead of
>
> seeing herself as a VOLUNTEER.
>
angry at the school system if they are treating her or her children
poorly and are generally failing to live up to the big PR job many of us
have been sold about public school.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Hardiman
Dear Folks: I very much need to get in contact with other parents of
kids who are or have been deschooled. I need to be pushed in the
direction of good articles to read. We are keeping our son, Nate, home
after 1 ½ years of school. He is 8 years old. He had a very difficult
2nd grade and had to do some academic work he wasnt ready for. All
summer, he played and would do nothing of reading or writing, etc. I
just gave him plenty of space and occasionally offered a book to read.
I am trying to deschool myself as well but feel that the 1 ½ years he
spent in school destroyed his education. He used to keep a journal
which started with pictures and some written words; he used to try to
add. He used to play scrabble or chest or do an educational software.
Now he is so sour on learning anything academic, and there are days he
really pushes my buttons. Today is one. I have backed off completely
anything academic and we have taken a few field trips. I dont why he
is testing me so much. Is this a message that he rather be in school?
I would go along with that but he failed according to the system.
His teacher must have read How Children Fail and applied it
continually all year. There was very little I could do for him. We
decided to finish that school year, and than we allowed Nate to envision
his future in education. He said that he could not handled having
things crammed down his throat. I have tried to back off. I dont know
what to do anymore. I recall reading in a Home Education magazine
that a mom pulled a 9th grader from class and didnt offer anything
academic for a year. He was a special needs kid in school and when he
graduated from home school he went on to go to law school. Am I
suppressing my fear of his not succeeding if he has no academic
background. I know I cant put him in school now. He would be a light
year behind his class and would be broken down. Please I am open to all
kinds of advise and reading. Thank you. Lisa of MT
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kids who are or have been deschooled. I need to be pushed in the
direction of good articles to read. We are keeping our son, Nate, home
after 1 ½ years of school. He is 8 years old. He had a very difficult
2nd grade and had to do some academic work he wasnt ready for. All
summer, he played and would do nothing of reading or writing, etc. I
just gave him plenty of space and occasionally offered a book to read.
I am trying to deschool myself as well but feel that the 1 ½ years he
spent in school destroyed his education. He used to keep a journal
which started with pictures and some written words; he used to try to
add. He used to play scrabble or chest or do an educational software.
Now he is so sour on learning anything academic, and there are days he
really pushes my buttons. Today is one. I have backed off completely
anything academic and we have taken a few field trips. I dont why he
is testing me so much. Is this a message that he rather be in school?
I would go along with that but he failed according to the system.
His teacher must have read How Children Fail and applied it
continually all year. There was very little I could do for him. We
decided to finish that school year, and than we allowed Nate to envision
his future in education. He said that he could not handled having
things crammed down his throat. I have tried to back off. I dont know
what to do anymore. I recall reading in a Home Education magazine
that a mom pulled a 9th grader from class and didnt offer anything
academic for a year. He was a special needs kid in school and when he
graduated from home school he went on to go to law school. Am I
suppressing my fear of his not succeeding if he has no academic
background. I know I cant put him in school now. He would be a light
year behind his class and would be broken down. Please I am open to all
kinds of advise and reading. Thank you. Lisa of MT
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
C. G. Bratton
You must contact Diane Flynn Keith at homefires.com.
Tell her Catherine Bratton sent you.
Catherine
Lisa Hardiman wrote:
Tell her Catherine Bratton sent you.
Catherine
Lisa Hardiman wrote:
> Dear Folks: I very much need to get in contact with other parents ofADVERTISEMENT
>
> kids who are or have been deschooled. I need to be pushed in the
> direction of good articles to read. We are keeping our son, Nate,
> home
> after 1 * years of school. He is 8 years old. He had a very
> difficult
> 2nd grade and had to do some academic work he wasnt ready for. All
> summer, he played and would do nothing of reading or writing, etc. I
> just gave him plenty of space and occasionally offered a book to read.
>
> I am trying to deschool myself as well but feel that the 1 * years he
> spent in school destroyed his education. He used to keep a journal
> which started with pictures and some written words; he used to try to
> add. He used to play scrabble or chest or do an educational software.
>
> Now he is so sour on learning anything academic, and there are days he
>
> really pushes my buttons. Today is one. I have backed off completely
>
> anything academic and we have taken a few field trips. I dont why he
>
> is testing me so much. Is this a message that he rather be in school?
>
> I would go along with that but he failed according to the system.
> His teacher must have read How Children Fail and applied it
> continually all year. There was very little I could do for him. We
> decided to finish that school year, and than we allowed Nate to
> envision
> his future in education. He said that he could not handled having
> things crammed down his throat. I have tried to back off. I dont
> know
> what to do anymore. I recall reading in a Home Education magazine
> that a mom pulled a 9th grader from class and didnt offer anything
> academic for a year. He was a special needs kid in school and when he
>
> graduated from home school he went on to go to law school. Am I
> suppressing my fear of his not succeeding if he has no academic
> background. I know I cant put him in school now. He would be a
> light
> year behind his class and would be broken down. Please I am open to
> all
> kinds of advise and reading. Thank you. Lisa of MT
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Julie W
Hi Lisa,
I am new to this group. In fact I have been a "lurker" over the past few
weeks. I live in New Zealand and I still on the verge of fully embracing
unschooling but feel I am well on the way. I know where you are coming
from as I withdrew my children from ps aged 8 and 6.5. In NZ children start
school at 5. My then 8yo dd was totally demotivated especially about
reading which she had previuosly enjoyed.
After taking lots of advice from a lot of people who home educated -
unschoolers through to school at homers - I let things be but read all sorts
of great books to the childen. I did not ask them to read I just gave them,
the opportunity to listen and enjoy. It took a yearto 18mths but I now have
a daughter who can't find enough time to erad. It is her choice and she
loves it.
With my son we built on interests he had in computer games - not educational
software but games - he loves Age of Empires and he said he wanted to find
out more about the Egyptians so I searched out some fun activities about
Ancient Egypt. He mummified apples, made clothes and weapons, looked at
library books and this led to a full blown interest in history. Right now I
am reading him a book he found in the adults section of the library about
Vikings.
We also started music lesson which was a non-school activity which they both
really enjoy.
I have found demonstrating the things I value - finding out new things,
reading etc in my everyday activities has be a motivator to my children.
Give things time - he will deschool but it may take a year or more to
happen. Take advantage of that year to enjoy things together. Something
will eventually hit the spot and spark his interest.
Hope this helps.
Julie W
Wellington
New Zealand
I am new to this group. In fact I have been a "lurker" over the past few
weeks. I live in New Zealand and I still on the verge of fully embracing
unschooling but feel I am well on the way. I know where you are coming
from as I withdrew my children from ps aged 8 and 6.5. In NZ children start
school at 5. My then 8yo dd was totally demotivated especially about
reading which she had previuosly enjoyed.
After taking lots of advice from a lot of people who home educated -
unschoolers through to school at homers - I let things be but read all sorts
of great books to the childen. I did not ask them to read I just gave them,
the opportunity to listen and enjoy. It took a yearto 18mths but I now have
a daughter who can't find enough time to erad. It is her choice and she
loves it.
With my son we built on interests he had in computer games - not educational
software but games - he loves Age of Empires and he said he wanted to find
out more about the Egyptians so I searched out some fun activities about
Ancient Egypt. He mummified apples, made clothes and weapons, looked at
library books and this led to a full blown interest in history. Right now I
am reading him a book he found in the adults section of the library about
Vikings.
We also started music lesson which was a non-school activity which they both
really enjoy.
I have found demonstrating the things I value - finding out new things,
reading etc in my everyday activities has be a motivator to my children.
Give things time - he will deschool but it may take a year or more to
happen. Take advantage of that year to enjoy things together. Something
will eventually hit the spot and spark his interest.
Hope this helps.
Julie W
Wellington
New Zealand
Fetteroll
Lisa,
You've talked a lot about what he isn't doing. You haven't told us anything
that he is doing.
Real learning doesn't look like academics. It looks like playing. That's why
kids do it :-)
Don't think in terms of field trips. Field trips are for schools. Think
about fun places to go that you and he might do on a weekend or over the
summer if you were already confident that the school were handling his
education. Go for walks. Go shopping and stop and admire his admiration of
what he calls you to see. Take him to places where he can do the kinds of
things he enjoys doing (rollerblading, biking, whatever). Go for leisurely
trips to museums and just look at the stuff *he* wants to.
I suspect he's picking up the nervousness that's coming through loud and
clear in your post. He can feel you hovering over him waiting for him to do
something that will calm your fears.
Calming your fears isn't his job. Your fears are your own. His "job" is to
live the life of an 8 year old. Let him do and be an 8 year old rather than
a product in preparation for adulthood. Kids spend way too much time
training to be adults. There's a reason kids are 8. It's a stage they need
to pass through and he only gets one chance at it! He needs to be involved
in 8 yo things. *His* 8 yo things. Nintendo. TV. Games. Puzzles. Tickling.
Seeing if he can cram a whole hamburger into his mouth. ;-) Playing with
friends.
Don't hand him books. Snuggle up on the couch under a quilt and hot
chocolate and read to him. Put books on tape on in the car. Watch movie
versions of favorite books and talk about what you liked and didn't like.
Your job isn't to make him read. Your job is to make sure he has pleasurable
experiences with reading. And has reasons that are meaningful to him to
read. (Like if he likes to play video games, make sure he has the guides. It
will be reading for meaning.)
You might try posting your question at the message boards at Unschooling.com
(http://www.unschooling.com) or on the Unschooling.com email list. (Address
an email to [email protected]) There are a lot
more newbies there and you're more likely to read about the beginnings of
unschooling.
Joyce
You've talked a lot about what he isn't doing. You haven't told us anything
that he is doing.
Real learning doesn't look like academics. It looks like playing. That's why
kids do it :-)
Don't think in terms of field trips. Field trips are for schools. Think
about fun places to go that you and he might do on a weekend or over the
summer if you were already confident that the school were handling his
education. Go for walks. Go shopping and stop and admire his admiration of
what he calls you to see. Take him to places where he can do the kinds of
things he enjoys doing (rollerblading, biking, whatever). Go for leisurely
trips to museums and just look at the stuff *he* wants to.
I suspect he's picking up the nervousness that's coming through loud and
clear in your post. He can feel you hovering over him waiting for him to do
something that will calm your fears.
Calming your fears isn't his job. Your fears are your own. His "job" is to
live the life of an 8 year old. Let him do and be an 8 year old rather than
a product in preparation for adulthood. Kids spend way too much time
training to be adults. There's a reason kids are 8. It's a stage they need
to pass through and he only gets one chance at it! He needs to be involved
in 8 yo things. *His* 8 yo things. Nintendo. TV. Games. Puzzles. Tickling.
Seeing if he can cram a whole hamburger into his mouth. ;-) Playing with
friends.
Don't hand him books. Snuggle up on the couch under a quilt and hot
chocolate and read to him. Put books on tape on in the car. Watch movie
versions of favorite books and talk about what you liked and didn't like.
Your job isn't to make him read. Your job is to make sure he has pleasurable
experiences with reading. And has reasons that are meaningful to him to
read. (Like if he likes to play video games, make sure he has the guides. It
will be reading for meaning.)
You might try posting your question at the message boards at Unschooling.com
(http://www.unschooling.com) or on the Unschooling.com email list. (Address
an email to [email protected]) There are a lot
more newbies there and you're more likely to read about the beginnings of
unschooling.
Joyce
[email protected]
Lisa,
Why do you feel he must do something "academic"? A summer is not nearly long
enough for him to get his head back on straight. And worrying about whether
he's doing "academics" is not unschooling.
We pulled our son out after 6th grade. He floated around here for two
years---mostly sleeping all day and watching tv and playing on the computer
(with occasional jaunts on the skateboard <g>). REALLY! He'd go with us to
the park or the zoo or the museums, but not always. We did send him (by
himself) to Australia for three weeks and Washington State for four weeks and
we went on family trips to St Louis, Chicago, New York (2x), MA, CT, PA (2x),
and Pensacola & Jacksonville, FL. But mostly, he slept a lot and spent time
in front of the TV or 'puter. The only things he read or wrote were IM's!
(although I picked up many books I thought might interest him from the
library and tossed them in his room.)
This past month, he wrote a screenplay (in school, he HATED to read or
write). He and his friends will begin filming next weekend. He's learned all
this on his own. It's pretty amazing, too, how well-written it is. (He asked
me to look it over and fix things. He had misused lie/lay, so I corrected
that.) He had tons of questions about plots and tension and character
development. He now has tons of questions about lighting and camera
work/angles and editing (he's also directing the film).
The film deals with typical teen thoughts: boy/girl relationships, drugs &
alcohol, differences, and skateboarding <G>---and is sprinkled with music
(some of which he's writing, but mostly from bands he likes). Regular stuff:
sex, drugs and rock & roll!
It's been an amazing few years watching him lose the school mentality. A lot
of "veging out", but he NEEDED that. He's now waking a bit earlier and
wanting to go places with us more and more. As I work on this conference,
he's taken on almost all of the housework and a lot of the care for his
little brother---just to help me out. (Only four weeks to go!)
Give your son time to find himself again. Dispense with the academics. Let
him veg out or pursue an "unacademic" interest. Understand what UNschooling
really is!
kellyinsc
Kelly Lovejoy, Coordinator
Schools Out Support
mailto:coordinator@...
803-776-4849
Fax: 803-776-7006
http://www.schoolsoutsupport.org
Why do you feel he must do something "academic"? A summer is not nearly long
enough for him to get his head back on straight. And worrying about whether
he's doing "academics" is not unschooling.
We pulled our son out after 6th grade. He floated around here for two
years---mostly sleeping all day and watching tv and playing on the computer
(with occasional jaunts on the skateboard <g>). REALLY! He'd go with us to
the park or the zoo or the museums, but not always. We did send him (by
himself) to Australia for three weeks and Washington State for four weeks and
we went on family trips to St Louis, Chicago, New York (2x), MA, CT, PA (2x),
and Pensacola & Jacksonville, FL. But mostly, he slept a lot and spent time
in front of the TV or 'puter. The only things he read or wrote were IM's!
(although I picked up many books I thought might interest him from the
library and tossed them in his room.)
This past month, he wrote a screenplay (in school, he HATED to read or
write). He and his friends will begin filming next weekend. He's learned all
this on his own. It's pretty amazing, too, how well-written it is. (He asked
me to look it over and fix things. He had misused lie/lay, so I corrected
that.) He had tons of questions about plots and tension and character
development. He now has tons of questions about lighting and camera
work/angles and editing (he's also directing the film).
The film deals with typical teen thoughts: boy/girl relationships, drugs &
alcohol, differences, and skateboarding <G>---and is sprinkled with music
(some of which he's writing, but mostly from bands he likes). Regular stuff:
sex, drugs and rock & roll!
It's been an amazing few years watching him lose the school mentality. A lot
of "veging out", but he NEEDED that. He's now waking a bit earlier and
wanting to go places with us more and more. As I work on this conference,
he's taken on almost all of the housework and a lot of the care for his
little brother---just to help me out. (Only four weeks to go!)
Give your son time to find himself again. Dispense with the academics. Let
him veg out or pursue an "unacademic" interest. Understand what UNschooling
really is!
kellyinsc
Kelly Lovejoy, Coordinator
Schools Out Support
mailto:coordinator@...
803-776-4849
Fax: 803-776-7006
http://www.schoolsoutsupport.org
[email protected]
Hey {{{Lisa}}}
Dylan has never been to school so I can't tell you about deschooling.
All I can tell you is I pay attention to what he likes and help him find
as much of it as he wants. Lately it's been insects and doesn't that
sound academic? Also lately he likes to color fuzzy velvet posters. (No
Elvis so far) but fuzzy velvet posters don't sound nearly as academic as
insects. And always it is cartoons and Godzilla and X-files, and
M*A*S*H, and Playstation and Gameboy and Calvin and Hobbs and Peanuts.
My point is that we tend to see certain things as learning and other
things strictly as entertainment. But I can tell you he's learned more
useful things from all that entertainment than he has from being able to
tell a bee assassin from a milkweed beetle. That's cool and impresses
big people but what he really uses every day is his sense of drama, and
humor and compassion and his quick thinking and dexterity and his
observation skills. He has an astounding visual memory which helps him
all the time.
Dylan couldn't sit down and do the multiplication tables like a third
grader here could do but he can count the money in his wallet and
determine if there is enough for the things he wants to buy. He can
figure how much he'll have left, how much change he'll get back, how much
he needs to save for the next thing. He plays cribbage with his dad and
can count by 15's like nobody business. He can add his score in Yahtzee
and that's because he likes to play. He's awsome at SET. So is he
behind? Maybe according to the school but not according to his life.
What he needs in his real life right now he knows or will know as the
need arises because he gets to live and use what he learns. He has never
encountered a situation in ten years of life that required knowing the
multiplication tables.
Why does Nate need to read right now Lisa? He's not driving around in
your car, he's not going to work, he's not walking around town by
himself. What does he absolutely NEED to read right now that you can't
help him with?
The only reason kids are forced into reading so early at school is for
the convenience of the teachers. No little kid needs to read at six or
seven or eight or even 10 or 12. Maybe by the time he wants a job, or
wants his drivers licence but how far away is that? In between there is
so much time to hear wonderful stories and see great movies and play.
(And in fact, my husband works with a man who has his high school
diploma and never learned to read. He makes an excellent living as an
equipment operator, he's better paid than our Mayor, has a nice home a
lovely wife and a loyal dog.)
If you start to look at what Nate likes to play as meaningful to his life
right now you will begin to see a world of learning in it. He doesn't
need to be measured or judged against someone else's standard, he just
needs to be a kid and play and have you involved with him. Just read to
him when he wants, play with him, take him places he likes to go, tell
him what a cool kid he is and how much you like to be with him. Tell him
everything will be ok.
You already do lots of cool things with your kids Lisa. You're doing ok.
It's probably so much easier for moms whose kids never went to school,
because we don't have that idea in our minds about what school would
expect. What if Nate just played and healed and found joy in his life
everyday and knew you were proud of him no matter what? Would you trade
that for reading right now? Which is more important in his life at this
moment?
Love & Peace,
Deb
Dylan has never been to school so I can't tell you about deschooling.
All I can tell you is I pay attention to what he likes and help him find
as much of it as he wants. Lately it's been insects and doesn't that
sound academic? Also lately he likes to color fuzzy velvet posters. (No
Elvis so far) but fuzzy velvet posters don't sound nearly as academic as
insects. And always it is cartoons and Godzilla and X-files, and
M*A*S*H, and Playstation and Gameboy and Calvin and Hobbs and Peanuts.
My point is that we tend to see certain things as learning and other
things strictly as entertainment. But I can tell you he's learned more
useful things from all that entertainment than he has from being able to
tell a bee assassin from a milkweed beetle. That's cool and impresses
big people but what he really uses every day is his sense of drama, and
humor and compassion and his quick thinking and dexterity and his
observation skills. He has an astounding visual memory which helps him
all the time.
Dylan couldn't sit down and do the multiplication tables like a third
grader here could do but he can count the money in his wallet and
determine if there is enough for the things he wants to buy. He can
figure how much he'll have left, how much change he'll get back, how much
he needs to save for the next thing. He plays cribbage with his dad and
can count by 15's like nobody business. He can add his score in Yahtzee
and that's because he likes to play. He's awsome at SET. So is he
behind? Maybe according to the school but not according to his life.
What he needs in his real life right now he knows or will know as the
need arises because he gets to live and use what he learns. He has never
encountered a situation in ten years of life that required knowing the
multiplication tables.
Why does Nate need to read right now Lisa? He's not driving around in
your car, he's not going to work, he's not walking around town by
himself. What does he absolutely NEED to read right now that you can't
help him with?
The only reason kids are forced into reading so early at school is for
the convenience of the teachers. No little kid needs to read at six or
seven or eight or even 10 or 12. Maybe by the time he wants a job, or
wants his drivers licence but how far away is that? In between there is
so much time to hear wonderful stories and see great movies and play.
(And in fact, my husband works with a man who has his high school
diploma and never learned to read. He makes an excellent living as an
equipment operator, he's better paid than our Mayor, has a nice home a
lovely wife and a loyal dog.)
If you start to look at what Nate likes to play as meaningful to his life
right now you will begin to see a world of learning in it. He doesn't
need to be measured or judged against someone else's standard, he just
needs to be a kid and play and have you involved with him. Just read to
him when he wants, play with him, take him places he likes to go, tell
him what a cool kid he is and how much you like to be with him. Tell him
everything will be ok.
You already do lots of cool things with your kids Lisa. You're doing ok.
It's probably so much easier for moms whose kids never went to school,
because we don't have that idea in our minds about what school would
expect. What if Nate just played and healed and found joy in his life
everyday and knew you were proud of him no matter what? Would you trade
that for reading right now? Which is more important in his life at this
moment?
Love & Peace,
Deb
Linda Greene
Hi Lisa. I have two boys (ages 7 adn 11) that I
pulled out of school at the end of the 2000 school
year. My older son, Thomas, was like your 8 year old.
Do not panick. Your son needs to "detox", and he
will. I would totally stop trying to school him for
quite awhile. Don't worry, he will learn. There are
also things you can do and he won't even know he's
learning: ask him to help you bake cookies, play fun
card games with him like "Go Fish" or "War". Also,
read to him if he likes that. I am still having to
read to Thomas because he associates reading with
learning. He's getting much better and is reading
some of his current book, "The Two Towers" by himself.
The difference in his attitude this year as opposed
to last year is amazing. He is MUCH more positive.
Hang in there. He'll come around.
Linda Greene
--- Lisa Hardiman <lisa-hardiman@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
http://news.yahoo.com
pulled out of school at the end of the 2000 school
year. My older son, Thomas, was like your 8 year old.
Do not panick. Your son needs to "detox", and he
will. I would totally stop trying to school him for
quite awhile. Don't worry, he will learn. There are
also things you can do and he won't even know he's
learning: ask him to help you bake cookies, play fun
card games with him like "Go Fish" or "War". Also,
read to him if he likes that. I am still having to
read to Thomas because he associates reading with
learning. He's getting much better and is reading
some of his current book, "The Two Towers" by himself.
The difference in his attitude this year as opposed
to last year is amazing. He is MUCH more positive.
Hang in there. He'll come around.
Linda Greene
--- Lisa Hardiman <lisa-hardiman@...> wrote:
> Dear Folks: I very much need to get in contact with__________________________________________________
> other parents of
> kids who are or have been deschooled. I need to be
> pushed in the
> direction of good articles to read. We are keeping
> our son, Nate, home
> after 1 � years of school. He is 8 years old. He
> had a very difficult
> 2nd grade and had to do some academic work he wasn�t
> ready for. All
> summer, he played and would do nothing of reading or
> writing, etc. I
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
http://news.yahoo.com
Kate Green
> Dylan couldn't sit down and do the multiplication tables like a thirdI love these kinds of things when what kids know is so part of life. Over
> grader here could do but he can count the money in his wallet and
> He can
> figure how much he'll have left, how much change he'll get back, how much
the summer my youngest (7) and his grandmother were talking and she asked
him something about doing multiplication and division (not in a mean,
quizzing way) and he said he didn't know how to do that school stuff yet
but would learn it later. The next day we were at an Arab souk and she was
trying to figure out how much something cost. He told her to cut the number
into somewhere between 3 and 4 pieces and then you would know how much in
dollars -- he then did it for her (the exchange rate is 3.68dhs to the
USD). Later at home he showed her how to do this exactly with a calculator!
She cracked up to me because he was so sure he didn't know that "mathy
stuff" and yet was able to calculate way beyond most of her kids --she's a
ps school teacher.
Kate
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/02 8:32:13 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< But I can tell you he's learned more
useful things from all that entertainment than he has from being able to
tell a bee assassin from a milkweed beetle. That's cool and impresses
big people but what he really uses every day is his sense of drama, and
humor and compassion and his quick thinking and dexterity and his
observation skills. He has an astounding visual memory which helps him
all the time. >>
I just wanted to repeat that part of Deb's post. This is the essence of what
I can't make most people understand about unschooling.
Paula
<< But I can tell you he's learned more
useful things from all that entertainment than he has from being able to
tell a bee assassin from a milkweed beetle. That's cool and impresses
big people but what he really uses every day is his sense of drama, and
humor and compassion and his quick thinking and dexterity and his
observation skills. He has an astounding visual memory which helps him
all the time. >>
I just wanted to repeat that part of Deb's post. This is the essence of what
I can't make most people understand about unschooling.
Paula
Lisa Hardiman
Thanks, Deb, I will copy and add to my Deb L. Book. Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: ddzimlew@... [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 6:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Hey {{{Lisa}}}
Dylan has never been to school so I can't tell you about deschooling.
All I can tell you is I pay attention to what he likes and help him find
as much of it as he wants. Lately it's been insects and doesn't that
sound academic? Also lately he likes to color fuzzy velvet posters.
(No
Elvis so far) but fuzzy velvet posters don't sound nearly as academic as
insects. And always it is cartoons and Godzilla and X-files, and
M*A*S*H, and Playstation and Gameboy and Calvin and Hobbs and Peanuts.
My point is that we tend to see certain things as learning and other
things strictly as entertainment. But I can tell you he's learned more
useful things from all that entertainment than he has from being able to
tell a bee assassin from a milkweed beetle. That's cool and impresses
big people but what he really uses every day is his sense of drama, and
humor and compassion and his quick thinking and dexterity and his
observation skills. He has an astounding visual memory which helps him
all the time.
Dylan couldn't sit down and do the multiplication tables like a third
grader here could do but he can count the money in his wallet and
determine if there is enough for the things he wants to buy. He can
figure how much he'll have left, how much change he'll get back, how
much
he needs to save for the next thing. He plays cribbage with his dad and
can count by 15's like nobody business. He can add his score in Yahtzee
and that's because he likes to play. He's awsome at SET. So is he
behind? Maybe according to the school but not according to his life.
What he needs in his real life right now he knows or will know as the
need arises because he gets to live and use what he learns. He has
never
encountered a situation in ten years of life that required knowing the
multiplication tables.
Why does Nate need to read right now Lisa? He's not driving around in
your car, he's not going to work, he's not walking around town by
himself. What does he absolutely NEED to read right now that you can't
help him with?
The only reason kids are forced into reading so early at school is for
the convenience of the teachers. No little kid needs to read at six or
seven or eight or even 10 or 12. Maybe by the time he wants a job, or
wants his drivers licence but how far away is that? In between there is
so much time to hear wonderful stories and see great movies and play.
(And in fact, my husband works with a man who has his high school
diploma and never learned to read. He makes an excellent living as an
equipment operator, he's better paid than our Mayor, has a nice home a
lovely wife and a loyal dog.)
If you start to look at what Nate likes to play as meaningful to his
life
right now you will begin to see a world of learning in it. He doesn't
need to be measured or judged against someone else's standard, he just
needs to be a kid and play and have you involved with him. Just read to
him when he wants, play with him, take him places he likes to go, tell
him what a cool kid he is and how much you like to be with him. Tell
him
everything will be ok.
You already do lots of cool things with your kids Lisa. You're doing
ok.
It's probably so much easier for moms whose kids never went to school,
because we don't have that idea in our minds about what school would
expect. What if Nate just played and healed and found joy in his life
everyday and knew you were proud of him no matter what? Would you trade
that for reading right now? Which is more important in his life at this
moment?
Love & Peace,
Deb
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: ddzimlew@... [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 6:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Hey {{{Lisa}}}
Dylan has never been to school so I can't tell you about deschooling.
All I can tell you is I pay attention to what he likes and help him find
as much of it as he wants. Lately it's been insects and doesn't that
sound academic? Also lately he likes to color fuzzy velvet posters.
(No
Elvis so far) but fuzzy velvet posters don't sound nearly as academic as
insects. And always it is cartoons and Godzilla and X-files, and
M*A*S*H, and Playstation and Gameboy and Calvin and Hobbs and Peanuts.
My point is that we tend to see certain things as learning and other
things strictly as entertainment. But I can tell you he's learned more
useful things from all that entertainment than he has from being able to
tell a bee assassin from a milkweed beetle. That's cool and impresses
big people but what he really uses every day is his sense of drama, and
humor and compassion and his quick thinking and dexterity and his
observation skills. He has an astounding visual memory which helps him
all the time.
Dylan couldn't sit down and do the multiplication tables like a third
grader here could do but he can count the money in his wallet and
determine if there is enough for the things he wants to buy. He can
figure how much he'll have left, how much change he'll get back, how
much
he needs to save for the next thing. He plays cribbage with his dad and
can count by 15's like nobody business. He can add his score in Yahtzee
and that's because he likes to play. He's awsome at SET. So is he
behind? Maybe according to the school but not according to his life.
What he needs in his real life right now he knows or will know as the
need arises because he gets to live and use what he learns. He has
never
encountered a situation in ten years of life that required knowing the
multiplication tables.
Why does Nate need to read right now Lisa? He's not driving around in
your car, he's not going to work, he's not walking around town by
himself. What does he absolutely NEED to read right now that you can't
help him with?
The only reason kids are forced into reading so early at school is for
the convenience of the teachers. No little kid needs to read at six or
seven or eight or even 10 or 12. Maybe by the time he wants a job, or
wants his drivers licence but how far away is that? In between there is
so much time to hear wonderful stories and see great movies and play.
(And in fact, my husband works with a man who has his high school
diploma and never learned to read. He makes an excellent living as an
equipment operator, he's better paid than our Mayor, has a nice home a
lovely wife and a loyal dog.)
If you start to look at what Nate likes to play as meaningful to his
life
right now you will begin to see a world of learning in it. He doesn't
need to be measured or judged against someone else's standard, he just
needs to be a kid and play and have you involved with him. Just read to
him when he wants, play with him, take him places he likes to go, tell
him what a cool kid he is and how much you like to be with him. Tell
him
everything will be ok.
You already do lots of cool things with your kids Lisa. You're doing
ok.
It's probably so much easier for moms whose kids never went to school,
because we don't have that idea in our minds about what school would
expect. What if Nate just played and healed and found joy in his life
everyday and knew you were proud of him no matter what? Would you trade
that for reading right now? Which is more important in his life at this
moment?
Love & Peace,
Deb
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Hardiman
Thank you I understand more. Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 2:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Lisa,
You've talked a lot about what he isn't doing. You haven't told us
anything
that he is doing.
Real learning doesn't look like academics. It looks like playing. That's
why
kids do it :-)
Don't think in terms of field trips. Field trips are for schools. Think
about fun places to go that you and he might do on a weekend or over the
summer if you were already confident that the school were handling his
education. Go for walks. Go shopping and stop and admire his admiration
of
what he calls you to see. Take him to places where he can do the kinds
of
things he enjoys doing (rollerblading, biking, whatever). Go for
leisurely
trips to museums and just look at the stuff *he* wants to.
I suspect he's picking up the nervousness that's coming through loud and
clear in your post. He can feel you hovering over him waiting for him to
do
something that will calm your fears.
Calming your fears isn't his job. Your fears are your own. His "job" is
to
live the life of an 8 year old. Let him do and be an 8 year old rather
than
a product in preparation for adulthood. Kids spend way too much time
training to be adults. There's a reason kids are 8. It's a stage they
need
to pass through and he only gets one chance at it! He needs to be
involved
in 8 yo things. *His* 8 yo things. Nintendo. TV. Games. Puzzles.
Tickling.
Seeing if he can cram a whole hamburger into his mouth. ;-) Playing with
friends.
Don't hand him books. Snuggle up on the couch under a quilt and hot
chocolate and read to him. Put books on tape on in the car. Watch movie
versions of favorite books and talk about what you liked and didn't
like.
Your job isn't to make him read. Your job is to make sure he has
pleasurable
experiences with reading. And has reasons that are meaningful to him to
read. (Like if he likes to play video games, make sure he has the
guides. It
will be reading for meaning.)
You might try posting your question at the message boards at
Unschooling.com
(http://www.unschooling.com) or on the Unschooling.com email list.
(Address
an email to [email protected]) There are a
lot
more newbies there and you're more likely to read about the beginnings
of
unschooling.
Joyce
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: Fetteroll [mailto:fetteroll@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 2:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Lisa,
You've talked a lot about what he isn't doing. You haven't told us
anything
that he is doing.
Real learning doesn't look like academics. It looks like playing. That's
why
kids do it :-)
Don't think in terms of field trips. Field trips are for schools. Think
about fun places to go that you and he might do on a weekend or over the
summer if you were already confident that the school were handling his
education. Go for walks. Go shopping and stop and admire his admiration
of
what he calls you to see. Take him to places where he can do the kinds
of
things he enjoys doing (rollerblading, biking, whatever). Go for
leisurely
trips to museums and just look at the stuff *he* wants to.
I suspect he's picking up the nervousness that's coming through loud and
clear in your post. He can feel you hovering over him waiting for him to
do
something that will calm your fears.
Calming your fears isn't his job. Your fears are your own. His "job" is
to
live the life of an 8 year old. Let him do and be an 8 year old rather
than
a product in preparation for adulthood. Kids spend way too much time
training to be adults. There's a reason kids are 8. It's a stage they
need
to pass through and he only gets one chance at it! He needs to be
involved
in 8 yo things. *His* 8 yo things. Nintendo. TV. Games. Puzzles.
Tickling.
Seeing if he can cram a whole hamburger into his mouth. ;-) Playing with
friends.
Don't hand him books. Snuggle up on the couch under a quilt and hot
chocolate and read to him. Put books on tape on in the car. Watch movie
versions of favorite books and talk about what you liked and didn't
like.
Your job isn't to make him read. Your job is to make sure he has
pleasurable
experiences with reading. And has reasons that are meaningful to him to
read. (Like if he likes to play video games, make sure he has the
guides. It
will be reading for meaning.)
You might try posting your question at the message boards at
Unschooling.com
(http://www.unschooling.com) or on the Unschooling.com email list.
(Address
an email to [email protected]) There are a
lot
more newbies there and you're more likely to read about the beginnings
of
unschooling.
Joyce
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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542111:HM/A=763352/R=0/*http:/www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liza Sabater
Hi Lisa and all,
I have been lurking on this list for months now but the coincidence
of your subject is too big to pass. This month's HOME EDUCATION
MAGAZINE has two articles on deschooling: Sandra Dodd's DESCHOOLING
FOR PARENTS and my article TAKING THE SCHOOL OUT OF HOMESCHOOL. I do
not know if it was fate or a coincidence arranged by the editor :-)
but the main argument in both of our articles is simply this:
It has been argued for many years that children need to decompress or
deschool after being removed from school in order to clear the path
to homeschooling or unschooling. Well, children don't homeschool or
unschool in a vacuum; they do so after all with their parents.
Parents need to deschool as much as, if not even more than, their
children since most have many more years of schooling than their
brood.
I sent out a questionnaire to about 7 homeschooling and unschooling
email lists. The response about this topic was overwhelming (I wish I
had been able to include most of my respondents quotes). From their
wisdom I got what I call the "The Three Rs" or stages of deschooling:
and judgements. It is a time to play, to hang out and to reassess
priorities. This is the decompression period a lot of homeschoolers
talk about and which many homeschoolers believe should be one month
for every year our kids attended school.
RESEARCH comes along with resistance and regrouping: This is the time
spent immersed in the homeschooling community, meeting and learning
more about the different styles and experiences.
This last stage I like to think also about it as a time for
REDISCOVERY in the sense that, through learning more about all the
options available in homeschooling, both parents and children can
find new ways of doing what they had thought they could not do or
were not allowed to do because it was not schooling. So, in a sense,
by learning about the different ways one can learn through
homeschooling, hopefully children and parents alike can find the joy
they lost at school for learning.
The article came after an AHA! moment I had on an email discussion.
If you take into consideration that my parents sent me to school at
the age of three and that I had not stopped being in a school setting
until I quit teaching college and decided not to write a
dissertation; then that would have made me a SCHOOLER for 27
CONSECUTIVE YEARS.
So the issue of DESCHOOLING became very clear to me. My son (who is
still not of compulsory age) attended nursery schools and pre-k for 2
years (he just turned 5). He is an incredibly social child so it took
him about 6 months to get over the fact that his friends were in
school and he was not. I, on the other hand, am still getting the
hang of NOT doing school.
Your son is just 8 years old. I cannot find the links (will post them
later) of some of the child development researchers who believe they
can change schools by actually having them throw away academic work
----or stave it until kids reach the age of 11 or 12. Your son needs
to play and just be and right now you are still trying to cram things
down his throat by being worried about his "academic" future.
Think about it. isn't it weird for us to worry about this? Academic
work is what you do when working in a university and writing a
thesis. What your son and all children should be doing at the age of
8 is playing, growing and being because that is the way that most
mammals, including humans, learn. All this academic poppycock is
actually stunting children's, and in the end human, development.
Sorry about the rant but I get really passionate about this.
You said you did some field trips. I say, do some more. You and your
guy need to go on some adventures, get away from it all, and
reconnect as mother and child, as Lisa and Nate, and not as teacher
and student or "assessor" and "academic achievement grade".
Deschooling is going to be a bumpy ride but y'all be fine. You just
need to find the fun in learning and forget about the 'academic work'
--and when I say you I mean, YOU. Your son said already what he wants
and how he wants it. Lisa needs to reassess how she wants to help
Nate accomplish that. I would start with some chamomile tea and a
bubble bath. Oh, and I rented a whole slew of AbFab and Monty Python
tapes --nothing like good ol' brit humor and silliness to put things
into perspective. Then, do things together. Find things the both of
you LOVE, not just like but LOVE doing together. Then, hang out some
more.
Just remember to have fun.
Best,
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been lurking on this list for months now but the coincidence
of your subject is too big to pass. This month's HOME EDUCATION
MAGAZINE has two articles on deschooling: Sandra Dodd's DESCHOOLING
FOR PARENTS and my article TAKING THE SCHOOL OUT OF HOMESCHOOL. I do
not know if it was fate or a coincidence arranged by the editor :-)
but the main argument in both of our articles is simply this:
It has been argued for many years that children need to decompress or
deschool after being removed from school in order to clear the path
to homeschooling or unschooling. Well, children don't homeschool or
unschool in a vacuum; they do so after all with their parents.
Parents need to deschool as much as, if not even more than, their
children since most have many more years of schooling than their
brood.
I sent out a questionnaire to about 7 homeschooling and unschooling
email lists. The response about this topic was overwhelming (I wish I
had been able to include most of my respondents quotes). From their
wisdom I got what I call the "The Three Rs" or stages of deschooling:
>RESISTANCE is the stage in which children or parents are opposed toREGROUPING is about backing off and backing down from expectations
>the idea of homeschooling or any learning at all, not because they
>want to go back to school but because homeschooling is too much like
>school.
and judgements. It is a time to play, to hang out and to reassess
priorities. This is the decompression period a lot of homeschoolers
talk about and which many homeschoolers believe should be one month
for every year our kids attended school.
RESEARCH comes along with resistance and regrouping: This is the time
spent immersed in the homeschooling community, meeting and learning
more about the different styles and experiences.
This last stage I like to think also about it as a time for
REDISCOVERY in the sense that, through learning more about all the
options available in homeschooling, both parents and children can
find new ways of doing what they had thought they could not do or
were not allowed to do because it was not schooling. So, in a sense,
by learning about the different ways one can learn through
homeschooling, hopefully children and parents alike can find the joy
they lost at school for learning.
The article came after an AHA! moment I had on an email discussion.
If you take into consideration that my parents sent me to school at
the age of three and that I had not stopped being in a school setting
until I quit teaching college and decided not to write a
dissertation; then that would have made me a SCHOOLER for 27
CONSECUTIVE YEARS.
So the issue of DESCHOOLING became very clear to me. My son (who is
still not of compulsory age) attended nursery schools and pre-k for 2
years (he just turned 5). He is an incredibly social child so it took
him about 6 months to get over the fact that his friends were in
school and he was not. I, on the other hand, am still getting the
hang of NOT doing school.
Your son is just 8 years old. I cannot find the links (will post them
later) of some of the child development researchers who believe they
can change schools by actually having them throw away academic work
----or stave it until kids reach the age of 11 or 12. Your son needs
to play and just be and right now you are still trying to cram things
down his throat by being worried about his "academic" future.
Think about it. isn't it weird for us to worry about this? Academic
work is what you do when working in a university and writing a
thesis. What your son and all children should be doing at the age of
8 is playing, growing and being because that is the way that most
mammals, including humans, learn. All this academic poppycock is
actually stunting children's, and in the end human, development.
Sorry about the rant but I get really passionate about this.
You said you did some field trips. I say, do some more. You and your
guy need to go on some adventures, get away from it all, and
reconnect as mother and child, as Lisa and Nate, and not as teacher
and student or "assessor" and "academic achievement grade".
Deschooling is going to be a bumpy ride but y'all be fine. You just
need to find the fun in learning and forget about the 'academic work'
--and when I say you I mean, YOU. Your son said already what he wants
and how he wants it. Lisa needs to reassess how she wants to help
Nate accomplish that. I would start with some chamomile tea and a
bubble bath. Oh, and I rented a whole slew of AbFab and Monty Python
tapes --nothing like good ol' brit humor and silliness to put things
into perspective. Then, do things together. Find things the both of
you LOVE, not just like but LOVE doing together. Then, hang out some
more.
Just remember to have fun.
Best,
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**I recall reading in a Home Education magazine
that a mom pulled a 9th grader from class and didnt offer anything
academic for a year. He was a special needs kid in school and when he
graduated from home school he went on to go to law school.**
I've known a few people who "succeeded" all the way through law school
and then discovered that they didn't like the work they had to do as
lawyers. (Does that help any?)
**He said that he could not handled having things crammed down his throat.**
The very beginning of the book The Teenage Liberation Handbook, has a
long parable comparing school to force feeding cafeteria slop to a kid
who just wants to graze and eat wonderful fruits and berries. If you
can get your hands on a copy of this book, your son might really relate
to this story and feel understood.
I also like The Book of Learning and Forgetting by Frank Smith. This
book makes it clear that drilling and trying to memorize stuff that
doesn't interest or confuses us is a terrible way to learn and works
against our natural learning abilities. (You probably already got that
idea from How Children Fail.)
I believe that deschooling is important. Your son probably has mental
and emotional scars that need to heal. You don't want to "poke" him in
his sore spots. People say to expect at least a month of deschooling
for every year that a child was in school or preschool/daycare. And it
might take more time if the school experience was especially nasty or
the child is particularly sensitive.
Best wishes,
Betsy
that a mom pulled a 9th grader from class and didnt offer anything
academic for a year. He was a special needs kid in school and when he
graduated from home school he went on to go to law school.**
I've known a few people who "succeeded" all the way through law school
and then discovered that they didn't like the work they had to do as
lawyers. (Does that help any?)
**He said that he could not handled having things crammed down his throat.**
The very beginning of the book The Teenage Liberation Handbook, has a
long parable comparing school to force feeding cafeteria slop to a kid
who just wants to graze and eat wonderful fruits and berries. If you
can get your hands on a copy of this book, your son might really relate
to this story and feel understood.
I also like The Book of Learning and Forgetting by Frank Smith. This
book makes it clear that drilling and trying to memorize stuff that
doesn't interest or confuses us is a terrible way to learn and works
against our natural learning abilities. (You probably already got that
idea from How Children Fail.)
I believe that deschooling is important. Your son probably has mental
and emotional scars that need to heal. You don't want to "poke" him in
his sore spots. People say to expect at least a month of deschooling
for every year that a child was in school or preschool/daycare. And it
might take more time if the school experience was especially nasty or
the child is particularly sensitive.
Best wishes,
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/02 2:07:52 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Now he is so sour on learning anything academic, >>
Wouldn't you be too, if someone forced you to learn things you weren't
interested in?
I don’t why he
is testing me so much. Is this a message that he rather be in school?
No, it's a message to let him be. Let him be who he is, and do what he is
interested in doing. Give him the freedom he desires and your relationship
will improve.
Visit unschooling.com and you will be able to read all about many families
that don't force their kids to do academics, and the wonderful results it
brings about.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Now he is so sour on learning anything academic, >>
Wouldn't you be too, if someone forced you to learn things you weren't
interested in?
I don’t why he
is testing me so much. Is this a message that he rather be in school?
No, it's a message to let him be. Let him be who he is, and do what he is
interested in doing. Give him the freedom he desires and your relationship
will improve.
Visit unschooling.com and you will be able to read all about many families
that don't force their kids to do academics, and the wonderful results it
brings about.
Ren
Betsy
** You must contact Diane Flynn Keith at homefires.com.
Tell her Catherine Bratton sent you.
Catherine**
Hi, Catherine --
I met you once, years ago, at Sunnyvale Baylands, before you moved.
What is Diane Flynn Keith's particular deschooling mojo? Mostly
articles from Homefires or an especially good antidote? (Maybe anecdotes...)
Just wondering,
Betsy
Tell her Catherine Bratton sent you.
Catherine**
Hi, Catherine --
I met you once, years ago, at Sunnyvale Baylands, before you moved.
What is Diane Flynn Keith's particular deschooling mojo? Mostly
articles from Homefires or an especially good antidote? (Maybe anecdotes...)
Just wondering,
Betsy
Betsy
**Also lately he likes to color fuzzy velvet posters. (No
Elvis so far) but fuzzy velvet posters don't sound nearly as academic as
insects. **
Yesterday I saw a copy of "Elvis for Dummies" at the library. Gotta
wonder if it has a chapter on making velvet paintings. <g>
Betsy
** And always it is cartoons and Godzilla and X-files, and
M*A*S*H, and Playstation and Gameboy and Calvin and Hobbs and Peanuts. **
There are probably more multi-syllable words and more profound ideas in
Calvin and Hobbes than in any "Dummies" book.
Elvis so far) but fuzzy velvet posters don't sound nearly as academic as
insects. **
Yesterday I saw a copy of "Elvis for Dummies" at the library. Gotta
wonder if it has a chapter on making velvet paintings. <g>
Betsy
** And always it is cartoons and Godzilla and X-files, and
M*A*S*H, and Playstation and Gameboy and Calvin and Hobbs and Peanuts. **
There are probably more multi-syllable words and more profound ideas in
Calvin and Hobbes than in any "Dummies" book.
Betsy
**... I got what I call the "The Three Rs" or stages of deschooling:
RESISTANCE is the stage in which children or parents are opposed to
the idea of homeschooling or any learning at all, not because they
want to go back to school but because homeschooling is too much like
school.
REGROUPING is about backing off and backing down from expectations
and judgements. It is a time to play, to hang out and to reassess
priorities. This is the decompression period a lot of homeschoolers
talk about and which many homeschoolers believe should be one month
for every year our kids attended school.
RESEARCH comes along with resistance and regrouping: This is the time
spent immersed in the homeschooling community, meeting and learning
more about the different styles and experiences.
This last stage I like to think also about it as a time for
REDISCOVERY in the sense that, through learning more about all the
options available in homeschooling, both parents and children can
find new ways of doing what they had thought they could not do or
were not allowed to do because it was not schooling. So, in a sense,
by learning about the different ways one can learn through
homeschooling, hopefully children and parents alike can find the joy
they lost at school for learning.**
This is great! I don't currently have a HEM subscription, so I haven't
read your whole article (or Sandra's), but that won't slow me down on
asking questions.
I wanted to ask about helping very new homeschoolers (who may or may not
be unschoolers) who come to park day with our support group. Sometimes
it feels like they are looking for a very complete, turnkey solution.
They seem to feel uncomfortable with the freedom that they have (if they
know that they even have it).
Are there ways that your insights about deschooling can be applied to
how I help new homeschoolers deschool? Maybe I should get over myself
and not get sucked into "helping". I could just stick with "Nice to
meet you. Have a cookie."
Any ideas?
Betsy
RESISTANCE is the stage in which children or parents are opposed to
the idea of homeschooling or any learning at all, not because they
want to go back to school but because homeschooling is too much like
school.
REGROUPING is about backing off and backing down from expectations
and judgements. It is a time to play, to hang out and to reassess
priorities. This is the decompression period a lot of homeschoolers
talk about and which many homeschoolers believe should be one month
for every year our kids attended school.
RESEARCH comes along with resistance and regrouping: This is the time
spent immersed in the homeschooling community, meeting and learning
more about the different styles and experiences.
This last stage I like to think also about it as a time for
REDISCOVERY in the sense that, through learning more about all the
options available in homeschooling, both parents and children can
find new ways of doing what they had thought they could not do or
were not allowed to do because it was not schooling. So, in a sense,
by learning about the different ways one can learn through
homeschooling, hopefully children and parents alike can find the joy
they lost at school for learning.**
This is great! I don't currently have a HEM subscription, so I haven't
read your whole article (or Sandra's), but that won't slow me down on
asking questions.
I wanted to ask about helping very new homeschoolers (who may or may not
be unschoolers) who come to park day with our support group. Sometimes
it feels like they are looking for a very complete, turnkey solution.
They seem to feel uncomfortable with the freedom that they have (if they
know that they even have it).
Are there ways that your insights about deschooling can be applied to
how I help new homeschoolers deschool? Maybe I should get over myself
and not get sucked into "helping". I could just stick with "Nice to
meet you. Have a cookie."
Any ideas?
Betsy
Lisa Hardiman
You helped me so much. I thought I was deschooled but I had a lot of
programming yet to let go of. Thank you. Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 12:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
**... I got what I call the "The Three Rs" or stages of deschooling:
RESISTANCE is the stage in which children or parents are opposed to
the idea of homeschooling or any learning at all, not because they
want to go back to school but because homeschooling is too much like
school.
REGROUPING is about backing off and backing down from expectations
and judgements. It is a time to play, to hang out and to reassess
priorities. This is the decompression period a lot of homeschoolers
talk about and which many homeschoolers believe should be one month
for every year our kids attended school.
RESEARCH comes along with resistance and regrouping: This is the time
spent immersed in the homeschooling community, meeting and learning
more about the different styles and experiences.
This last stage I like to think also about it as a time for
REDISCOVERY in the sense that, through learning more about all the
options available in homeschooling, both parents and children can
find new ways of doing what they had thought they could not do or
were not allowed to do because it was not schooling. So, in a sense,
by learning about the different ways one can learn through
homeschooling, hopefully children and parents alike can find the joy
they lost at school for learning.**
This is great! I don't currently have a HEM subscription, so I haven't
read your whole article (or Sandra's), but that won't slow me down on
asking questions.
I wanted to ask about helping very new homeschoolers (who may or may not
be unschoolers) who come to park day with our support group. Sometimes
it feels like they are looking for a very complete, turnkey solution.
They seem to feel uncomfortable with the freedom that they have (if they
know that they even have it).
Are there ways that your insights about deschooling can be applied to
how I help new homeschoolers deschool? Maybe I should get over myself
and not get sucked into "helping". I could just stick with "Nice to
meet you. Have a cookie."
Any ideas?
Betsy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
programming yet to let go of. Thank you. Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 12:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
**... I got what I call the "The Three Rs" or stages of deschooling:
RESISTANCE is the stage in which children or parents are opposed to
the idea of homeschooling or any learning at all, not because they
want to go back to school but because homeschooling is too much like
school.
REGROUPING is about backing off and backing down from expectations
and judgements. It is a time to play, to hang out and to reassess
priorities. This is the decompression period a lot of homeschoolers
talk about and which many homeschoolers believe should be one month
for every year our kids attended school.
RESEARCH comes along with resistance and regrouping: This is the time
spent immersed in the homeschooling community, meeting and learning
more about the different styles and experiences.
This last stage I like to think also about it as a time for
REDISCOVERY in the sense that, through learning more about all the
options available in homeschooling, both parents and children can
find new ways of doing what they had thought they could not do or
were not allowed to do because it was not schooling. So, in a sense,
by learning about the different ways one can learn through
homeschooling, hopefully children and parents alike can find the joy
they lost at school for learning.**
This is great! I don't currently have a HEM subscription, so I haven't
read your whole article (or Sandra's), but that won't slow me down on
asking questions.
I wanted to ask about helping very new homeschoolers (who may or may not
be unschoolers) who come to park day with our support group. Sometimes
it feels like they are looking for a very complete, turnkey solution.
They seem to feel uncomfortable with the freedom that they have (if they
know that they even have it).
Are there ways that your insights about deschooling can be applied to
how I help new homeschoolers deschool? Maybe I should get over myself
and not get sucked into "helping". I could just stick with "Nice to
meet you. Have a cookie."
Any ideas?
Betsy
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Hardiman
Dear Liza: Thanks. Nate is growing and changing. We went to an art
museum which was free on 9/11 and he actually looked at the paintings
and some he did for several moments. Perhaps, I am not putting the
times table in front of him but subtly I have been pushing him
academically. He rebelled and I yelled my head off and when Barry, my
ol' man, came home, he talked to Nate, and Nate talked like a person
really in tuned with his feelings. Barry said that Nate never talked
like that before. So I continue to be affirmative and look forward to
the greater days. Lisa of MT P.S. I subscribed to HEM but haven't
received a copy yet. LIsa
-----Original Message-----
From: Liza Sabater [mailto:liza@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:05 AM
To: Lisa Hardiman
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Hi Lisa and all,
I have been lurking on this list for months now but the coincidence
of your subject is too big to pass. This month's HOME EDUCATION
MAGAZINE has two articles on deschooling: Sandra Dodd's DESCHOOLING
FOR PARENTS and my article TAKING THE SCHOOL OUT OF HOMESCHOOL. I do
not know if it was fate or a coincidence arranged by the editor :-)
but the main argument in both of our articles is simply this:
It has been argued for many years that children need to decompress or
deschool after being removed from school in order to clear the path
to homeschooling or unschooling. Well, children don't homeschool or
unschool in a vacuum; they do so after all with their parents.
Parents need to deschool as much as, if not even more than, their
children since most have many more years of schooling than their
brood.
I sent out a questionnaire to about 7 homeschooling and unschooling
email lists. The response about this topic was overwhelming (I wish I
had been able to include most of my respondents quotes). From their
wisdom I got what I call the "The Three Rs" or stages of deschooling:
and judgements. It is a time to play, to hang out and to reassess
priorities. This is the decompression period a lot of homeschoolers
talk about and which many homeschoolers believe should be one month
for every year our kids attended school.
RESEARCH comes along with resistance and regrouping: This is the time
spent immersed in the homeschooling community, meeting and learning
more about the different styles and experiences.
This last stage I like to think also about it as a time for
REDISCOVERY in the sense that, through learning more about all the
options available in homeschooling, both parents and children can
find new ways of doing what they had thought they could not do or
were not allowed to do because it was not schooling. So, in a sense,
by learning about the different ways one can learn through
homeschooling, hopefully children and parents alike can find the joy
they lost at school for learning.
The article came after an AHA! moment I had on an email discussion.
If you take into consideration that my parents sent me to school at
the age of three and that I had not stopped being in a school setting
until I quit teaching college and decided not to write a
dissertation; then that would have made me a SCHOOLER for 27
CONSECUTIVE YEARS.
So the issue of DESCHOOLING became very clear to me. My son (who is
still not of compulsory age) attended nursery schools and pre-k for 2
years (he just turned 5). He is an incredibly social child so it took
him about 6 months to get over the fact that his friends were in
school and he was not. I, on the other hand, am still getting the
hang of NOT doing school.
Your son is just 8 years old. I cannot find the links (will post them
later) of some of the child development researchers who believe they
can change schools by actually having them throw away academic work
----or stave it until kids reach the age of 11 or 12. Your son needs
to play and just be and right now you are still trying to cram things
down his throat by being worried about his "academic" future.
Think about it. isn't it weird for us to worry about this? Academic
work is what you do when working in a university and writing a
thesis. What your son and all children should be doing at the age of
8 is playing, growing and being because that is the way that most
mammals, including humans, learn. All this academic poppycock is
actually stunting children's, and in the end human, development.
Sorry about the rant but I get really passionate about this.
You said you did some field trips. I say, do some more. You and your
guy need to go on some adventures, get away from it all, and
reconnect as mother and child, as Lisa and Nate, and not as teacher
and student or "assessor" and "academic achievement grade".
Deschooling is going to be a bumpy ride but y'all be fine. You just
need to find the fun in learning and forget about the 'academic work'
--and when I say you I mean, YOU. Your son said already what he wants
and how he wants it. Lisa needs to reassess how she wants to help
Nate accomplish that. I would start with some chamomile tea and a
bubble bath. Oh, and I rented a whole slew of AbFab and Monty Python
tapes --nothing like good ol' brit humor and silliness to put things
into perspective. Then, do things together. Find things the both of
you LOVE, not just like but LOVE doing together. Then, hang out some
more.
Just remember to have fun.
Best,
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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museum which was free on 9/11 and he actually looked at the paintings
and some he did for several moments. Perhaps, I am not putting the
times table in front of him but subtly I have been pushing him
academically. He rebelled and I yelled my head off and when Barry, my
ol' man, came home, he talked to Nate, and Nate talked like a person
really in tuned with his feelings. Barry said that Nate never talked
like that before. So I continue to be affirmative and look forward to
the greater days. Lisa of MT P.S. I subscribed to HEM but haven't
received a copy yet. LIsa
-----Original Message-----
From: Liza Sabater [mailto:liza@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:05 AM
To: Lisa Hardiman
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Hi Lisa and all,
I have been lurking on this list for months now but the coincidence
of your subject is too big to pass. This month's HOME EDUCATION
MAGAZINE has two articles on deschooling: Sandra Dodd's DESCHOOLING
FOR PARENTS and my article TAKING THE SCHOOL OUT OF HOMESCHOOL. I do
not know if it was fate or a coincidence arranged by the editor :-)
but the main argument in both of our articles is simply this:
It has been argued for many years that children need to decompress or
deschool after being removed from school in order to clear the path
to homeschooling or unschooling. Well, children don't homeschool or
unschool in a vacuum; they do so after all with their parents.
Parents need to deschool as much as, if not even more than, their
children since most have many more years of schooling than their
brood.
I sent out a questionnaire to about 7 homeschooling and unschooling
email lists. The response about this topic was overwhelming (I wish I
had been able to include most of my respondents quotes). From their
wisdom I got what I call the "The Three Rs" or stages of deschooling:
>RESISTANCE is the stage in which children or parents are opposed toREGROUPING is about backing off and backing down from expectations
>the idea of homeschooling or any learning at all, not because they
>want to go back to school but because homeschooling is too much like
>school.
and judgements. It is a time to play, to hang out and to reassess
priorities. This is the decompression period a lot of homeschoolers
talk about and which many homeschoolers believe should be one month
for every year our kids attended school.
RESEARCH comes along with resistance and regrouping: This is the time
spent immersed in the homeschooling community, meeting and learning
more about the different styles and experiences.
This last stage I like to think also about it as a time for
REDISCOVERY in the sense that, through learning more about all the
options available in homeschooling, both parents and children can
find new ways of doing what they had thought they could not do or
were not allowed to do because it was not schooling. So, in a sense,
by learning about the different ways one can learn through
homeschooling, hopefully children and parents alike can find the joy
they lost at school for learning.
The article came after an AHA! moment I had on an email discussion.
If you take into consideration that my parents sent me to school at
the age of three and that I had not stopped being in a school setting
until I quit teaching college and decided not to write a
dissertation; then that would have made me a SCHOOLER for 27
CONSECUTIVE YEARS.
So the issue of DESCHOOLING became very clear to me. My son (who is
still not of compulsory age) attended nursery schools and pre-k for 2
years (he just turned 5). He is an incredibly social child so it took
him about 6 months to get over the fact that his friends were in
school and he was not. I, on the other hand, am still getting the
hang of NOT doing school.
Your son is just 8 years old. I cannot find the links (will post them
later) of some of the child development researchers who believe they
can change schools by actually having them throw away academic work
----or stave it until kids reach the age of 11 or 12. Your son needs
to play and just be and right now you are still trying to cram things
down his throat by being worried about his "academic" future.
Think about it. isn't it weird for us to worry about this? Academic
work is what you do when working in a university and writing a
thesis. What your son and all children should be doing at the age of
8 is playing, growing and being because that is the way that most
mammals, including humans, learn. All this academic poppycock is
actually stunting children's, and in the end human, development.
Sorry about the rant but I get really passionate about this.
You said you did some field trips. I say, do some more. You and your
guy need to go on some adventures, get away from it all, and
reconnect as mother and child, as Lisa and Nate, and not as teacher
and student or "assessor" and "academic achievement grade".
Deschooling is going to be a bumpy ride but y'all be fine. You just
need to find the fun in learning and forget about the 'academic work'
--and when I say you I mean, YOU. Your son said already what he wants
and how he wants it. Lisa needs to reassess how she wants to help
Nate accomplish that. I would start with some chamomile tea and a
bubble bath. Oh, and I rented a whole slew of AbFab and Monty Python
tapes --nothing like good ol' brit humor and silliness to put things
into perspective. Then, do things together. Find things the both of
you LOVE, not just like but LOVE doing together. Then, hang out some
more.
Just remember to have fun.
Best,
Liza
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Hardiman
Deb: You really ought to kick me in the butt. Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Hardiman [mailto:lisa-hardiman@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 8:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Thanks, Deb, I will copy and add to my Deb L. Book. Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: ddzimlew@... [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 6:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Hey {{{Lisa}}}
Dylan has never been to school so I can't tell you about deschooling.
All I can tell you is I pay attention to what he likes and help him find
as much of it as he wants. Lately it's been insects and doesn't that
sound academic? Also lately he likes to color fuzzy velvet posters.
(No
Elvis so far) but fuzzy velvet posters don't sound nearly as academic as
insects. And always it is cartoons and Godzilla and X-files, and
M*A*S*H, and Playstation and Gameboy and Calvin and Hobbs and Peanuts.
My point is that we tend to see certain things as learning and other
things strictly as entertainment. But I can tell you he's learned more
useful things from all that entertainment than he has from being able to
tell a bee assassin from a milkweed beetle. That's cool and impresses
big people but what he really uses every day is his sense of drama, and
humor and compassion and his quick thinking and dexterity and his
observation skills. He has an astounding visual memory which helps him
all the time.
Dylan couldn't sit down and do the multiplication tables like a third
grader here could do but he can count the money in his wallet and
determine if there is enough for the things he wants to buy. He can
figure how much he'll have left, how much change he'll get back, how
much
he needs to save for the next thing. He plays cribbage with his dad and
can count by 15's like nobody business. He can add his score in Yahtzee
and that's because he likes to play. He's awsome at SET. So is he
behind? Maybe according to the school but not according to his life.
What he needs in his real life right now he knows or will know as the
need arises because he gets to live and use what he learns. He has
never
encountered a situation in ten years of life that required knowing the
multiplication tables.
Why does Nate need to read right now Lisa? He's not driving around in
your car, he's not going to work, he's not walking around town by
himself. What does he absolutely NEED to read right now that you can't
help him with?
The only reason kids are forced into reading so early at school is for
the convenience of the teachers. No little kid needs to read at six or
seven or eight or even 10 or 12. Maybe by the time he wants a job, or
wants his drivers licence but how far away is that? In between there is
so much time to hear wonderful stories and see great movies and play.
(And in fact, my husband works with a man who has his high school
diploma and never learned to read. He makes an excellent living as an
equipment operator, he's better paid than our Mayor, has a nice home a
lovely wife and a loyal dog.)
If you start to look at what Nate likes to play as meaningful to his
life
right now you will begin to see a world of learning in it. He doesn't
need to be measured or judged against someone else's standard, he just
needs to be a kid and play and have you involved with him. Just read to
him when he wants, play with him, take him places he likes to go, tell
him what a cool kid he is and how much you like to be with him. Tell
him
everything will be ok.
You already do lots of cool things with your kids Lisa. You're doing
ok.
It's probably so much easier for moms whose kids never went to school,
because we don't have that idea in our minds about what school would
expect. What if Nate just played and healed and found joy in his life
everyday and knew you were proud of him no matter what? Would you trade
that for reading right now? Which is more important in his life at this
moment?
Love & Peace,
Deb
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Hardiman [mailto:lisa-hardiman@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 8:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Thanks, Deb, I will copy and add to my Deb L. Book. Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: ddzimlew@... [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 6:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] deschooling
Hey {{{Lisa}}}
Dylan has never been to school so I can't tell you about deschooling.
All I can tell you is I pay attention to what he likes and help him find
as much of it as he wants. Lately it's been insects and doesn't that
sound academic? Also lately he likes to color fuzzy velvet posters.
(No
Elvis so far) but fuzzy velvet posters don't sound nearly as academic as
insects. And always it is cartoons and Godzilla and X-files, and
M*A*S*H, and Playstation and Gameboy and Calvin and Hobbs and Peanuts.
My point is that we tend to see certain things as learning and other
things strictly as entertainment. But I can tell you he's learned more
useful things from all that entertainment than he has from being able to
tell a bee assassin from a milkweed beetle. That's cool and impresses
big people but what he really uses every day is his sense of drama, and
humor and compassion and his quick thinking and dexterity and his
observation skills. He has an astounding visual memory which helps him
all the time.
Dylan couldn't sit down and do the multiplication tables like a third
grader here could do but he can count the money in his wallet and
determine if there is enough for the things he wants to buy. He can
figure how much he'll have left, how much change he'll get back, how
much
he needs to save for the next thing. He plays cribbage with his dad and
can count by 15's like nobody business. He can add his score in Yahtzee
and that's because he likes to play. He's awsome at SET. So is he
behind? Maybe according to the school but not according to his life.
What he needs in his real life right now he knows or will know as the
need arises because he gets to live and use what he learns. He has
never
encountered a situation in ten years of life that required knowing the
multiplication tables.
Why does Nate need to read right now Lisa? He's not driving around in
your car, he's not going to work, he's not walking around town by
himself. What does he absolutely NEED to read right now that you can't
help him with?
The only reason kids are forced into reading so early at school is for
the convenience of the teachers. No little kid needs to read at six or
seven or eight or even 10 or 12. Maybe by the time he wants a job, or
wants his drivers licence but how far away is that? In between there is
so much time to hear wonderful stories and see great movies and play.
(And in fact, my husband works with a man who has his high school
diploma and never learned to read. He makes an excellent living as an
equipment operator, he's better paid than our Mayor, has a nice home a
lovely wife and a loyal dog.)
If you start to look at what Nate likes to play as meaningful to his
life
right now you will begin to see a world of learning in it. He doesn't
need to be measured or judged against someone else's standard, he just
needs to be a kid and play and have you involved with him. Just read to
him when he wants, play with him, take him places he likes to go, tell
him what a cool kid he is and how much you like to be with him. Tell
him
everything will be ok.
You already do lots of cool things with your kids Lisa. You're doing
ok.
It's probably so much easier for moms whose kids never went to school,
because we don't have that idea in our minds about what school would
expect. What if Nate just played and healed and found joy in his life
everyday and knew you were proud of him no matter what? Would you trade
that for reading right now? Which is more important in his life at this
moment?
Love & Peace,
Deb
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Sharon Rudd
Also lately he likes to color fuzzy
"velvet"....
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
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> velvet posters.Roy has done horses and unicorns and dragons on fuzzy
"velvet"....
Sharon of the Swamp
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Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
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[email protected]
In a message dated 9/12/02 9:18:51 PM, lisa-hardiman@... writes:
<< I have backed off completely
anything academic and we have taken a few field trips. >>
The deschooling needs to be yours, not your child's.
Just for one example, "field trip" means a departure from school out into the
real world.
If you're at home, you already are not in school, and so a field trip is just
the same sort of trip to a museum or historic site or factory or zoo as any
tourist or local with a day off might take. Only you have 365 "days off,"
and you can treat any or all of them like a Saturday of a vacation.
<< I don’t why he
is testing me so much. Is this a message that he rather be in school? >>
I can't begin to guess why he's doing what he's doing without knowing more
about what you're doing. And what you're saying, and what your attitude
toward learning is.
<<Am I
suppressing my fear of his not succeeding if he has no academic
background. >>
Apparently you're not doing it very well!! <g>
There are over 100 unread messages in my box, so I'm hoping someone else has
answered this more thoroughly since I've been lounging on the couch with my
sprained foot and a Tom Clancy novel which is dark and depressing.
Sandra
<< I have backed off completely
anything academic and we have taken a few field trips. >>
The deschooling needs to be yours, not your child's.
Just for one example, "field trip" means a departure from school out into the
real world.
If you're at home, you already are not in school, and so a field trip is just
the same sort of trip to a museum or historic site or factory or zoo as any
tourist or local with a day off might take. Only you have 365 "days off,"
and you can treat any or all of them like a Saturday of a vacation.
<< I don’t why he
is testing me so much. Is this a message that he rather be in school? >>
I can't begin to guess why he's doing what he's doing without knowing more
about what you're doing. And what you're saying, and what your attitude
toward learning is.
<<Am I
suppressing my fear of his not succeeding if he has no academic
background. >>
Apparently you're not doing it very well!! <g>
There are over 100 unread messages in my box, so I'm hoping someone else has
answered this more thoroughly since I've been lounging on the couch with my
sprained foot and a Tom Clancy novel which is dark and depressing.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/02 2:30:35 AM, xtr581602@... writes:
<< With my son we built on interests he had in computer games - not
educational
software but games - he loves Age of Empires. . . >>
I'm collecting gaming "testimonials" at
http://sandradodd.com/games/page
and if you'd like to write something up for that project I'd love to have it!
Sandra
<< With my son we built on interests he had in computer games - not
educational
software but games - he loves Age of Empires. . . >>
I'm collecting gaming "testimonials" at
http://sandradodd.com/games/page
and if you'd like to write something up for that project I'd love to have it!
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/02 12:57:44 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< Are there ways that your insights about deschooling can be applied to
how I help new homeschoolers deschool? >>
I recommend to the moms that they make lists and charts, but just do it late
at night after the child is asleep and keep him out of it. <g>
The urge doesn't usually last long. They start to see how much learning is
taking place, and how much time it would take to document it, and they decide
to just let it go.
But for some particularly organized or nervous or anal moms, "assigning" them
to document learning in secret satisfies their need to spy on the kid totally
and KNOW what's happening. Then they see that it's silly (in secret, without
being embarrassed by anyone else) and they lighten up altogether.
Someone (maybe not on this list) mentioned the world book link . It's
http://www2.worldbook.com/parents/course_study_curr6.asp
and that set of listings can satisfy the organizationsl urges for a few hours.
But I would tell her seriously NOT to share that information with the child,
because every bit of measuring and categorizing inhibits natural learning and
she should keep the "progress" to herself.
Sandra
<< Are there ways that your insights about deschooling can be applied to
how I help new homeschoolers deschool? >>
I recommend to the moms that they make lists and charts, but just do it late
at night after the child is asleep and keep him out of it. <g>
The urge doesn't usually last long. They start to see how much learning is
taking place, and how much time it would take to document it, and they decide
to just let it go.
But for some particularly organized or nervous or anal moms, "assigning" them
to document learning in secret satisfies their need to spy on the kid totally
and KNOW what's happening. Then they see that it's silly (in secret, without
being embarrassed by anyone else) and they lighten up altogether.
Someone (maybe not on this list) mentioned the world book link . It's
http://www2.worldbook.com/parents/course_study_curr6.asp
and that set of listings can satisfy the organizationsl urges for a few hours.
But I would tell her seriously NOT to share that information with the child,
because every bit of measuring and categorizing inhibits natural learning and
she should keep the "progress" to herself.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/13/2002 10:22:03 AM Central Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
<< People say to expect at least a month of deschooling
for every year that a child was in school or preschool/daycare. >>
I believe some people completely miss the point of deschooling. They may
patiently wait until their children begin to show signs of being interested
is something and then they pounce, "Okay, now it's time to homeschool!" and
wonder why their children are still resistant. "Oh, they are just
rebellious, that's been the problem all along, it had nothing to do with
deschooling."
Parents almost always require more deschooling time than children. So what
we should suggest is that for every year the PARENT was in school or
preschool/daycare they deschool at least a month! (more like a year!!)
I heard one time from somewhere.........Unschooling is right for every child
but not every parent. Sounds right to me.
Joy
ecsamhill@... writes:
<< People say to expect at least a month of deschooling
for every year that a child was in school or preschool/daycare. >>
I believe some people completely miss the point of deschooling. They may
patiently wait until their children begin to show signs of being interested
is something and then they pounce, "Okay, now it's time to homeschool!" and
wonder why their children are still resistant. "Oh, they are just
rebellious, that's been the problem all along, it had nothing to do with
deschooling."
Parents almost always require more deschooling time than children. So what
we should suggest is that for every year the PARENT was in school or
preschool/daycare they deschool at least a month! (more like a year!!)
I heard one time from somewhere.........Unschooling is right for every child
but not every parent. Sounds right to me.
Joy
Shyrley
On 13 Sep 02, at 21:32, SandraDodd@... wrote:
William Wallace came about because of Age of Kings. The game
also taught him a great deal before he even went loooking fora book.
I love computer games myself (although I'm terrible at Age of
Kings) and have never really got my head round the idea that these
things should be limited.
Anyway, thatsa whole new rant.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
>I might just do that. My son's interest in Robert the Bruce and
> In a message dated 9/13/02 2:30:35 AM, xtr581602@... writes:
>
> << With my son we built on interests he had in computer games - not
> educational software but games - he loves Age of Empires. . . >>
>
> I'm collecting gaming "testimonials" at
> http://sandradodd.com/games/page
>
> and if you'd like to write something up for that project I'd love to
> have it!
>
> Sandra
>
William Wallace came about because of Age of Kings. The game
also taught him a great deal before he even went loooking fora book.
I love computer games myself (although I'm terrible at Age of
Kings) and have never really got my head round the idea that these
things should be limited.
Anyway, thatsa whole new rant.
Shyrley
"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you are all the same."
Betsy
**
Parents almost always require more deschooling time than children. So
what
we should suggest is that for every year the PARENT was in school or
preschool/daycare they deschool at least a month! (more like a year!!)
I heard one time from somewhere.........Unschooling is right for every
child
but not every parent. Sounds right to me.**
I've been wondering how parents deschool from their own institutional
experiences of being told to sit down and shut up. I think school
really, really encourages passivity. What helps people (parents)
transform from being passive widgets in a machine to being large and in
charge with their own lives? I don't think my dh and I have made it
through that change yet.
Betsy
Parents almost always require more deschooling time than children. So
what
we should suggest is that for every year the PARENT was in school or
preschool/daycare they deschool at least a month! (more like a year!!)
I heard one time from somewhere.........Unschooling is right for every
child
but not every parent. Sounds right to me.**
I've been wondering how parents deschool from their own institutional
experiences of being told to sit down and shut up. I think school
really, really encourages passivity. What helps people (parents)
transform from being passive widgets in a machine to being large and in
charge with their own lives? I don't think my dh and I have made it
through that change yet.
Betsy
Liza Sabater
Hey Betsy,
I guess you can tell them to take a year off and call you on the
morning of their anniversary :-)
Sandra pointed out that deschooling is more of a process that parents
have to go through --not just the kids. I think that kids get over
things faster than adults because they are in perpetual motion.
Adults on the other hand live with the fallacy that life is always
the same and hence "pain", "suffering", "trauma" is something that
you will live with for the rest of your life. Kids do not have a
"rest of your life" concept of time, they live in the moment and for
that reason deschooling is easy on them.
On the parents, it is a whole other thing. If a child resists
lessons, teaching of just a parents "good advice" it is not out of
spite. This is their way of saying "YOU JUST DON'T GET IT". Fights
are not about violence, they are about broken communication. So if a
child is hostile to a parent's style of homeschooling, they are not
asking to go back to school. What they are telling the parents is
that THEY KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM. When it comes to homeschooling,
resistance comes out of the kids knowing clearly what they want but
feeling frustrated the 'rents have not caught up with that insight.
The "homeschooling hostilities" are all about changing the paradigm
of learning. It is going from the paradigm of "school" to the
paradigm of "education" to the paradigm of "learning". They are very
different ideologies and practices. For this reason, if you need to
fill out portfolios or what not, learn how to do so effectively with
what you have and are doing right now because in this first year you
should really do no "schooling" at all. Really. People should take
the first year of homeschooling as a present to themselves and just
not do anything but explore what this new way of life means to them.
Then, after that year, you can offer them a cookie as well ;-)
Best,
Liza
I guess you can tell them to take a year off and call you on the
morning of their anniversary :-)
Sandra pointed out that deschooling is more of a process that parents
have to go through --not just the kids. I think that kids get over
things faster than adults because they are in perpetual motion.
Adults on the other hand live with the fallacy that life is always
the same and hence "pain", "suffering", "trauma" is something that
you will live with for the rest of your life. Kids do not have a
"rest of your life" concept of time, they live in the moment and for
that reason deschooling is easy on them.
On the parents, it is a whole other thing. If a child resists
lessons, teaching of just a parents "good advice" it is not out of
spite. This is their way of saying "YOU JUST DON'T GET IT". Fights
are not about violence, they are about broken communication. So if a
child is hostile to a parent's style of homeschooling, they are not
asking to go back to school. What they are telling the parents is
that THEY KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM. When it comes to homeschooling,
resistance comes out of the kids knowing clearly what they want but
feeling frustrated the 'rents have not caught up with that insight.
The "homeschooling hostilities" are all about changing the paradigm
of learning. It is going from the paradigm of "school" to the
paradigm of "education" to the paradigm of "learning". They are very
different ideologies and practices. For this reason, if you need to
fill out portfolios or what not, learn how to do so effectively with
what you have and are doing right now because in this first year you
should really do no "schooling" at all. Really. People should take
the first year of homeschooling as a present to themselves and just
not do anything but explore what this new way of life means to them.
Then, after that year, you can offer them a cookie as well ;-)
Best,
Liza
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>Are there ways that your insights about deschooling can be applied to
>how I help new homeschoolers deschool? Maybe I should get over myself
>and not get sucked into "helping". I could just stick with "Nice to
>meet you. Have a cookie."
>
>Any ideas?
>
>Betsy