jeans5kids

Hey thanks for trying to answer my not so direct question all the
answers really helped me think and I guess what sparked the question
in the first place were two different homeschooling families I know.
Family number 1: they have 10 kids and insist that they unschool
the kids. But I have never seen any kind of enrichment or anything I
would deem as learning going in their family and (not that a big
family can't unschool ) I consider the stuff that goes on there
abuse and neglect and was just kind of wondering if what I was
seeing could be, under someones broad discription, (someone other
than that mother's) of unschooling. Truth be told they are radical
religious people and do try to control the kids life and thinking
but are to busy with other stuff to do anything but say "No" to them
and limit their interaction with just about anything.
And then their is family number2: Who's Mother always asks me
about what kind of homeschooling I do with my kids and I am afraid
to talk about unschooling to her for fear that I know what a limited
life she lives and I think she might take the "no school time and no
text book" part and forget or gloss over the "get out and experiance
life part". She isn't a very well rounded person (in my opinion)
and belives that a woman's place is in the house and so forth. I
was posing that question as an "Am I bad for not opening the
unschooling door for them" question and an "Am I thinking I am
better than her and so I am qualified to unschool and she is not?"
snobish kind of thinking and just wanted or rather was hoping for
someone to make me feel better in the feelings I posses with these
families

sorry again for the long rambaling on but some soul searching on my
part is good

jean

Robyn Coburn

<<<< Family number 1: they have 10 kids and insist that they unschool
the kids. But I have never seen any kind of enrichment or anything I
would deem as learning going in their family and (not that a big
family can't unschool )>>>>......

<<<<< And then their is family number2: Who's Mother always asks me
about what kind of homeschooling I do with my kids and I am afraid
to talk about unschooling to her for fear that I know what a limited
life she lives and I think she might take the "no school time and no
text book" part and forget or gloss over the "get out and experiance
life part". >>>>>

Jean,

I'm going to preface my remarks with the caveat that I am speaking outside
of situations of legally defined abuse and neglect, or situations where a
mother is actively hurting her child in your presence.

I think you might be better off letting go of your fears about these other
families and your judgments about these other mothers. My experience in
myself of having these kinds of thoughts is that it ends up causing *me* a
lot of emotional anguish, distracts me from Jayn and my own family, and
affects the other families not at all.

You just can't take responsibility for other people's children or control
how other people are going to take any information they receive. Even the
"no textbooks" portion is a positive step, rather than something to be
feared.

This is partly why I don't do school conversations. Self protection.

I suspect, and I could be wrong, but still, I suspect that your best path is
to stop focusing at all, in any way, on what these other families are doing,
and what they are labeling their home schooling, and turn all of your
attention to enriching your own children's lives - without making
comparisons.

If you can be a shining light of contentment and joy and relaxed engagement
with your children, you will likely then attract the interest of other
mothers who genuinely want to receive the information about Unschooling
without becoming hostile. They start to want what you have and ask you how
you got there.

I know that it is hard not to be evangelical about Unschooling - but no
message, regardless of how compelling and simple and joyful it is, will be
heard by those with closed ears.

Robyn L. Coburn


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Barbara Chase

>but are to busy with other stuff to do anything but say "No" to them
>and limit their interaction with just about anything.

IMHO, if you hear a lot of 'no' then they aren't unschooling.


>and I am afraid
>to talk about unschooling to her for fear that I know what a limited
>life she lives and I think she might take the "no school time and no
>text book" part and forget or gloss over the "get out and experiance
>life part".

>"Am I bad for not opening the unschooling door for them"

If someone's not looking for a door, then even if you open it they won't
see it. These days, if someone asks me about what we do I share with them
examples of what our lives are like. I don't get philosophical or into
details of unschooling unless I'm talking with other unschoolers. I just
share what our lives are like and how excited we are about it and how much
fun we have with it. Most of my friends (whose kids are all in school)
can't imagine being able to do what I do... and visa versa!



Barbara

Mahalo - May you be in Divine Breath

[email protected]

<<If you hear a lot of no then they aren't unschooling>>

Depends, I think. A family with 10 kids is going to have to say "no" about 10 times more than a family with 1 kid, just based on the number. Then having 10 kids means dealing with 10 schedules, likes and dislikes rather than 1. I would think you are going to hear "no" or at least, "I don't see how" a lot, lot more than in your average size family.

Julie S.--with 5 kids

----- Original Message -----
From: Barbara Chase <bc@...>
Date: Sunday, December 11, 2005 7:45 pm
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] OP question

> >but are to busy with other stuff to do anything but say "No" to them
> >and limit their interaction with just about anything.
>
> IMHO, if you hear a lot of 'no' then they aren't unschooling.
>
>
> >and I am afraid
> >to talk about unschooling to her for fear that I know what a limited
> >life she lives and I think she might take the "no school time and no
> >text book" part and forget or gloss over the "get out and experiance
> >life part".
>
> >"Am I bad for not opening the unschooling door for them"
>
> If someone's not looking for a door, then even if you open it they
> won'tsee it. These days, if someone asks me about what we do I
> share with them
> examples of what our lives are like. I don't get philosophical or
> intodetails of unschooling unless I'm talking with other
> unschoolers. I just
> share what our lives are like and how excited we are about it and
> how much
> fun we have with it. Most of my friends (whose kids are all in
> school)can't imagine being able to do what I do... and visa versa!
>
>
>
> Barbara
>
> Mahalo - May you be in Divine Breath
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
> ~-->
> Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's
> Research Hospital.
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> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -~->
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sandra Dodd

On Dec 12, 2005, at 6:49 AM, jnjstau@... wrote:

> <<If you hear a lot of no then they aren't unschooling>>
>
> Depends, I think. A family with 10 kids is going to have to say
> "no" about 10 times more than a family with 1 kid, just based on
> the number.

==============================

Depends on what they're saying no about and how, and why.

I talked Marty into a no the other night. He wanted to go out and
look at Christmas lights. He was restless and just wanted to drive.

The car he usually drives is in the shop. He was in an accident; it
wasn't his fault; the other driver (drunk and uninsured) left; Marty
came home. Had Marty stayed and called the police, our insurance
would've covered the repair. He didn't know that and the damage
seemed slight. Wasn't so slight.

So I told Marty I didn't think it was worth the risk considering lots
of decorations weren't even out yet, Kirby would be away all weekend
in one vehicle, and if another got damaged Keith would be way more
upset than Christmas lights were worth, and that he should wait until
we had more cars and there were more lights.

I didn't "say no." He could've made a counter argument. I asked if
he wanted to take Holly to help him drive carefully. He really
wanted to go alone. He thought about it and said my arguments made
sense.

i COULD have just said no, but this was more valuable, made me feel
less guilty, made him a part of the decision, and though it took
longer and was a negative response, it wasn't "NO, you can't."

Sandra

Barbara Chase

>> <<If you hear a lot of no then they aren't unschooling>>
>>
>> Depends, I think. A family with 10 kids is going to have to say
>> "no" about 10 times more than a family with 1 kid
>
>==============================
>
>Depends on what they're saying no about and how, and why.
>
>I talked Marty into a no the other night.


Well I have an only, so I can only imagine what it would be like to have
more kids. But I also know that there are lots of different ways to say
no. There is the outright 'no', which ends all conversations and creates
the power dynamic which I see in most families (parent is in charge, child
must obey). This is the 'no' I was referring to and the one that I see
used most often.

Then there is the conversation that might talk the child into a no, like
the example Sandra posted, but that supports the relationship between the
parent and the child and respects the child. I know that Sandra creates a
positive relationship with her 3 kids, and I would guess that she probably
uses no even less than I do (I'm still catching myself!) So I'm not so
sure that we can make a logical conclusion that if there are more kids
there will be more nos.


But I will agree to add to my statement that they "probably" aren't
unschoolers.



Barbara

Mahalo - May you be in Divine Breath

Sharon

Robyn, I just want to thank you for your post. I agree totally. I would also like to add that usually we don't really know what is going on in other families. We don't know what conversations they are having or what books, movies, or other experiences they may be enjoying. We also don't know what the learning styles of these children might be. One of the best things about homeschooling in general and unschooling specifically is that no one knows or loves a child as well as his or her parents and other family members.
I have no doubt that to the outside observer my family looks kooky or lazy or maybe even abusive. I hope we look like a good example of a loving and thriving family... but you might have to come and live here a while to see that.

Sharon



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Sandra Dodd

> -=-We also don't know what the learning styles of these children
> might be. -=-


"Learning styles" was a really exciting thing for teachers to think
about 20 years ago. Lots of educators earned their PhDs off that
concept.

Unfortunately it was misused and misunderstood by people trying to
pinpoint a person's one singular learning style and that's no good.
In trying to encourage schools to employ all KINDS of sensory input
so that they weren't limiting to one style, the word got out and lots
of parents decided their child had "a (1) learning style."

http://sandradodd.com/checklists

Even with a single child, I think learning should involve as many
different kinds of input as possible. What I've felt AND heard AND
seen AND smelled or tasted (if applicable <g>) will exist more wholly
in my memory than something I've only read about or imagined. But
one of those is better than none, and two or three are better than one.

If a parent decides her child learns best by reading and provides
lots of books but no physical stuff or movies or music, that's not
very good in my opinion.

If a parent says "my kids learn visually" and so gives them only the
TV, that's equally no good.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

> One of the best things about homeschooling in general and
> unschooling specifically is that no one knows or loves a child as
> well as his or her parents and other family members.


Ideally.
Sometimes that truism can be abused.
Some parents know very little about how children learn or what young
children's capabilities are, and they might try to cover all manner
of sins with "I know my child best."

Sandra

Sharon

Hi Sandra, I agree with you, I didn't mean learning styles in that way. I should have been more clear. Many years ago I went to a workshop for homeschoolers on learning styles and I didn't think much of it. I read the discriptions of the styles and couldn't really find myself or my children at all. However I do think that each person learns more easily in some ways rather than others.
My first kid learns very easily, she pretty much grasps whatever she is exposed to the first time it comes by. It can be something she reads about, hears, experiences physically or whatever, she remembers and understand it. This seems to be the case even if she isn't very interested in the material. My second girl is similar, but if she isn't interested, forget it. Unless she reads it, if she reads something she remembers it.
My youndest is visually impared and we have to get more creative in helping her satisfy her curiosity.

My point was just that each family and child have their own approach(es) to family life and learning.

Sharon

Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-We also don't know what the learning styles of these children
> might be. -=-


"Learning styles" was a really exciting thing for teachers to think
about 20 years ago. Lots of educators earned their PhDs off that
concept.

Unfortunately it was misused and misunderstood by people trying to
pinpoint a person's one singular learning style and that's no good.
In trying to encourage schools to employ all KINDS of sensory input
so that they weren't limiting to one style, the word got out and lots
of parents decided their child had "a (1) learning style."

http://sandradodd.com/checklists

Even with a single child, I think learning should involve as many
different kinds of input as possible. What I've felt AND heard AND
seen AND smelled or tasted (if applicable ) will exist more wholly
in my memory than something I've only read about or imagined. But
one of those is better than none, and two or three are better than one.

If a parent decides her child learns best by reading and provides
lots of books but no physical stuff or movies or music, that's not
very good in my opinion.

If a parent says "my kids learn visually" and so gives them only the
TV, that's equally no good.

Sandra









Yahoo! Groups Links










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Sandra Dodd

On Dec 12, 2005, at 1:08 PM, Sharon wrote:

> -=-Unless she reads it, if she reads something she remembers it.-=-


I just spent an hour or so with tech people on the phone. I took
notes. I'll remember what I wrote and what I saw on the note-scribbly
paper better than I'll directly remember what I heard. I'll never
know whether school caused that. Maybe it's a disability. <g>

Sandra