woodjmac3

We have never set bedtimes nor sent our boys to bed, we share a bed(10ft wide) and usually go to bed at the same time. When they were very small I would sleep during the day with them on a bed in the Family playroom. How ever I have noticed that the boys now 6 & 8 will only go to bed if both of us go too. Some times if Martin has been working he goes to bed early but neither of the boys want to go with him. Sometimes I go to bed first and again neither wants to go with me. I see them yawning and rubbing their eyes but they stay up. Sometimes however they want to go to bed when we do not and I have to say I feel resentful at having to go to bed. I do usually get up again when they are asleep but I do not want to have to go through the palaver of getting undressed and then dressed again. I would like them to feel secure about going upstairs on their own or with just one of us so do not make any comments verbally but I am sure they must pick up on my non verbal messages. I actually need the least sleep and find if I do fall asleep while waiting for them to I wake up about 2 unable to sleep again till about 6 and then am tired for the rest of the day. Any suggestions.
Jay and Family
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschooled52
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Living_Your_Dream
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In a message dated 4/7/2005 1:33:16 PM Central Standard Time,
woodjmac3@... writes:

would like them to feel secure about going upstairs on their own or with
just one of us so do not make any comments verbally but I am sure they must pick
up on my non verbal messages. I actually need the least sleep and find if I
do fall asleep while waiting for them to I wake up about 2 unable to sleep
again till about 6 and then am tired for the rest of the day. Any
suggestions.



~~~

Encourage them to fall asleep wherever you are going to be?

If you will be in the living room, tuck them in on the couch or a pallet on
the floor and make sure they know you'll carry them up when you go to bed.
They don't have to sleep on the bed. I used to just sit down with mine
wherever they were most comfortable (not in the bed) and wait for them to go to
sleep, then leave them there until I was ready to go to bed.

Karen

www.badchair.net


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Gold Standard

>>How ever I have noticed that the boys now 6 & 8 will only go to bed if
both of us go too.<<
>>I see them yawning and rubbing their eyes but they stay up.<<
>>Sometimes however they want to go to bed when we do not and I have to say
I feel resentful at having to go to bed.<<
>>I do usually get up again when they are asleep but I do not want to have
to go through the palaver of getting undressed and >>then dressed again.<<

When my four were around those ages, we too were still in the thick of
family bed time. I learned that I needed to stop expecting that anything was
going to happen the way I wanted it to. Seemed the moment I wanted something
to go a certain way with my children was the beginning of my time of
resentment, frustration, irritability, and lousy mothering. Most of my
frustrations were built around what I thought was supposed to happen (i.e.,
kids have a bedtime and should sleep in their own rooms) based on societal
norms, even ones I didn't buy into, and even though my experience with my
children told me differently.

I would suggest that you limit what YOU want out of bedtime, and see what
they need during bedtime. If they want to go to bed and want you with them,
but you have something you wanted to watch on TV or something you wanted to
do, then record what you wanted to see, or postpone what you want to do. I
know this may seem confining, and other people may have other suggestions,
but it is what I found to be necessary. Raising children was a big purging
session for me. I found myself often letting go of desires, ideas, etc. When
I felt frustrated I learned to ask the question, "What do I WANT that is
causing me to be frustrated right now" and I usually found that I wanted to
see a show on TV, or quietly read the next paragraph of a book, or go to
sleep with everyone else going to sleep at the same time, or go to the
bathroom alone. Once I figured out my want, it was easier to let go of it,
or reconfigure it so that I would get something of what I wanted in a
different way or at a different time. Having my children's needs come first
was the priority. And I think this is much of what parenting is supposed to
be about. And then comes the part where you put joy into these "sacrifices".
I think you are right that the children know you are resentful, so the
sooner you let that go and enjoy this part of your day together, the better
your evenings will go.

This does bring up the bigger picture of how we as parents (figurative "we")
came to think that our desires come before our kids needs. It is not only
common occurrence in this country, we are drilled to be "independent" and to
make our kids that way too by ignoring their needs and showing how we go for
ours. (Not speaking about the poster btw, I think we've all had some of the
experience you present, just talking about how we got here.)

Last thought: For us, bedtime gradually evolved. They got a little older and
spread out a little more, and went to sleepovers at friends' houses, and
liked to have their own space, and I'm sure it happens differently for
different families, but for us our 16, 15 and 12 yo sleep mostly in their
own rooms now, though I do get pleasant surprises in the middle of the night
still (and I LOVE those times) and my 11 yo still sleeps with me and waits
for me to go to bed, or falls asleep wherever he is. He still has friends
sleep over and sleeps in his room with them and he happily sleeps over
friends' houses. I'm just grateful at this point for any time that we have
together, even snuggling at night.

Jacki

[email protected]

-=- I actually need the least sleep and find if I
do fall asleep while waiting for them to I wake up about 2 unable to sleep
again till about 6 and then am tired for the rest of the day. Any
suggestions-=-

This might not apply to the original author, but just as a piece of data
into the larger stream, remember menopause. When women get older they will
sleep differently. It seems one of the easiest and biggest strains on
relationships is that menopausal women will blame others for making them uncomfortable
and for keeping them from sleeping when it's just hormonal changes.

I've known several couples get divorced from inflexibility and lack of
awareness and compassion. It doesn't just goe one way, either. Some men get
angry when their wives have a hormone storm. Sometimes wives just want to be
self-righteous and blame others for their natural discomforts.

Once again, being compassionate about kids' changes can help affect how
adults respond to their own and each others' needs and changes.

Sandra





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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/8/2005 1:33:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

Once again, being compassionate about kids' changes can help affect how
adults respond to their own and each others' needs and changes.



I've been thinking about some things along these same lines for several
days. I'm noticing all the unexpected bonuses that came along with our
unschooling lifestyle. As I became more aware of my kids needs and responded to that
it just naturally carried over to my husband.

Our relationship is so much stronger now and part of it is just because I'm
nicer now! :-)
I think I used to so controlling of our lives that it affected us all in a
negative way. I'm still working on it but just the awareness of what I was
doing has led to changes.

There are very few times when our lives don't seem in harmony these
days...it's the best bonus I could have every imagined.

Gail







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Nanci Kuykendall

Not only are my boys in the same age range as the
original poster (ie:7 and 8yrs) but I also have an
autistic child who is strongly affected by ANY
activity taking place in the house while he's trying
to get to sleep and desperately needs solid routines
in order to not be so flustered and upset that he
can't sleep at all.

We share a room with the kids, but not a bed, although
they often fall asleep in bed with my and my hubby
moves them to their beds when he gets home (he works
late at night.) One thing that has worked for me to
get much needed quiet time to myself and still meet
their needs at bed time (when I am home alone with
them) is to have a soft light on and to read to
myself, do a crossword, write, etc. while in bed,
after the boys have had a story or whatever and are
all settled down. They are used to this routine and
will generally fall asleep fairly quickly while I do
this. Then if I want to get up again and do something
I am still awake.

Another problem we have is that one of our boys is an
early bird and the other a nightowl, yet neither wants
to be up alone. We've worked out some early morning
quiet cuddle time in our bed while we doze with the
early bird and/or his own quiet play time in another
room if he is feeling up to that, and nightlights for
reading or very quiet play in bed by the night owl
while others fall asleep and/or quiet play time in
another room on the rare occassions that he is ok with
that. Everybody has to give a little in order for
everyone's needs to be met, and us adults try hard to
accurately define what our needs are versus our wants
which can be compromised in order to meet the kids'
real needs.

Nanci K.

Gold Standard

>>but I also have an
autistic child<<

My oldest is autistic too and I just wanted to say how thankful I am to have
found unschooling for him (as well as my other kids). Mostly I needed the
support to let go of my fear for him and his future and the pull to
subscribe to everyone else's ideas of what we should do for him. There was
valuable information for us on the internet and from those who had similar
situations, but it still came down to what his needs were, which many times
were not at all what the "professionals" said they were. As far as sleeping
goes, he has evolved into a 16 yo who sometimes stays up all night working
on his passions, and sometimes crashes at 7pm and sleeps till morning. It
seems to have worked to let him be himself, even though that is very
different from his siblings. He has figured out through experience that if
he has to do something the next morning, he has to go to sleep by a certain
time. I don't think he'd have gotten that if I implemented his schedule for
him. I did read every night at bedtime when they were younger, and he did
settle in better with that routine, and definitely had difficulty with
change, and so we had to work with those things. It hasn't been a clean-cut
experience. It can look and feel messy, or sometimes seem like it takes
forever for there to be a positive result from trusting the process of
freedom for him. But I have to say that he has grown in leaps and bounds by
being able to completely indulge in his passions. He's learned most things
in life (including about relationships, body language, innuendo, etc., the
areas that are his biggest challenges) from having the freedom to do what
he wants.

As a family, we still have to make compromises for the needs of each
individual (as the last poster said). My daughter entered school in the 7th
grade this year (her choice) and has to get up early. We have all agreed to
be quiet near her room by 9:30 at night. My autistic son's room is the
farthest from the other bedrooms which gives him the freedom to have his
sleep/work schedule. This process started when they were really little.

Just some more thoughts.

Thanks,
Jacki

woodjmac3

Hi Karen,

Last night was a good example, Martin went off to bed and I stayed. Neither of the boys wanted to go up so they put on a video. I finished what I was doing and stared to watch the video with the boys. Axel our eldest got down on to floor and start to fall asleep I asked Craig if he was tired and he said yes so we went to bed. My concern is that they were both tired but did not say and would Craig would have stayed up just to not go to bed without me. I also have to say that at the moment I am not physical able to carry up my youngest as he is now the heavier of the 2. Martin is able to carry both the boys up so that is not a problem. What I think is bothering me is that although Axel wanted to go to sleep he would not go up stairs even though Martin was up there. Our house is very open plan and I would very happily take him up.

Encourage them to fall asleep wherever you are going to be?
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woodjmac3

Thanks Jacki,

I am trying very hard to see the resentment part of it all and do realise that sometimes this is what it is, I then just go with the flow and go to bed and get up latter. I really think the thing that bothers me is that when one of us is up stairs in bed that when either Axel or Craig want to sleep they don't go up there. I love sharing the bed with them all and love the hugs and cuddles and the morning snuggles. I am just concerned over the need they have to only be in bed with both of us there. I am wondering if maybe they are frightened of something but unable to vocalize it.

Jay

This last part was wonderful to read

Last thought: For us, bedtime gradually evolved. They got a little older and spread out a little more, and went to sleepovers at friends' houses, and liked to have their own space, and I'm sure it happens differently for
different families, but for us our 16, 15 and 12 yo sleep mostly in their own rooms now, though I do get pleasant surprises in the middle of the night still (and I LOVE those times) and my 11 yo still sleeps with me and waits
for me to go to bed, or falls asleep wherever he is. He still has friends sleep over and sleeps in his room with them and he happily sleeps over friends' houses. I'm just grateful at this point for any time that we have together, even snuggling at night.

Jacki






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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/9/2005 5:49:48 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
woodjmac3@... writes:

-=-My concern is that they were both tired but did not say and would Craig
would have stayed up just to not go to bed without me-=-

I used to make a bed on the couch or on a folding futon on the floor when a
kid wanted to fall asleep where I was when I was still awake and up, or if
one wanted to stay up watching a movie after others were asleep, I'd make a
soft, warm bed where he could see the TV, make sure he had water, kleenex, the
remote control, maybe a flashlight, and then if he ended up sleeping there all
night that was fine, but if he came into bed with us later or to his own bed,
that was fine too.

Sandra






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woodjmac3

I would be very happy for either of the boys or both of them to stay up if they wanted but if we both want to go to bed then they will come up even if they do not want to. Craig will not sleep on the edge of the mattress as he is frightened of monsters getting him. Axel does not mind but gets fed up if he always has to do it. It is not about liming them over when they go to bed it is more about some unknown something that stops them from staying up alone or going to bed with only one of us. I do not want to control their lives in any way and know that there are still things I have to let go of.

I suppose what I am saying is do I just let this continue until they feel more secure about night time and sleeping or is there something I can do to ensure that they feel safe.

Jay
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Gold Standard

>>I am just concerned over the need they have to only be in bed with both of
us there. I am wondering if maybe they are >>>>>>frightened of something
but unable to vocalize it.<<

I think there are often more times than not that the "core" reason for a
child's insecurities is never found, and that it often isn't all the
important to figure out. It seems much more important that children's needs
regarding their insecurities are met. I have fretted many many times over
trying to figure out why my children have feared something. Someone once
suggested to me that I may never know, but suggested that I make sure to
take them seriously and be there for them. Somehow this freed me up from
fearing their fears and made it easier to be pleasant and loving with them
without questioning whether it was right or not, or whether they were in
some kind of psychological peril. When they feel secure, it is much easier
for children to take the next step.

Jacki

Joanna Wilkinson

> I suppose what I am saying is do I just let this continue until
they feel more secure about night time and sleeping or is there
something I can do to ensure that they feel safe.
>
> Jay
> ----------


My younger kids (5 and 8) don't like to go upstairs by themselves at
night. Sometimes in the day too, (esp. if they have just seen
something scary on tv).
My oldest was the same way. I wish I was nicer to her and let her
stay up and do all the things that have been suggested here. We
didn't start unschooling til she was 8, so she got the brunt of most
of my hang ups, pre unschooling. My younger 2 are the same as she
was, but they don't ever have to be scared at night. One thing we
did was move our bedroom down stairs. The kids have thier rooms
upstairs and my oldest sleeps in hers and all the fears pretty much
disappeared for her around 12 to 13 yrs old. But my younger 2 sleep
downstairs with us. We also got a tv in our room so we usually
watch videos or Nick at Night til they fall asleep. Sometimes we
just read and talk.
I think the brain developes more reasoning skills when kids hit
puberty and they can handle being alone more.
I think you just need to wait it out.
Joanna

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/9/2005 6:49:49 AM Central Standard Time,
woodjmac3@... writes:

My concern is that they were both tired but did not say and would Craig
would have stayed up just to not go to bed without me. I also have to say that
at the moment I am not physical able to carry up my youngest as he is now the
heavier of the 2. Martin is able to carry both the boys up so that is not a
problem.


~~~

It doesn't matter if they say they're tired or not. You can tell when
they're tired. Help them recognize the symptoms. Be aware that Child A has been
awake for more hours than he usually is, etc., and bring it up. That doesn't
mean you have to go to bed with him. Give him "permission" to sleep
anywhere.

Is it a problem if they sleep where they fell? We've often let our kids
just sleep wherever it is they fell asleep, knowing that they know where we'll
be if they wake in the night. My youngest sleeps with the TV on, so if he
falls asleep on the couch (he usually says, "I think I'll just sleep down here"
right as he's dropping off) we make sure not to turn off the TV when we go up
to bed.

And I sleepwalk my kids when they're too big to carry....wake them us just
enough to get them on their feet and stumble them to wherever (usually the car
in our case). My kids don't have any trouble getting back to sleep after
that.

Karen
www.badchair.net


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/9/2005 8:19:59 PM Central Standard Time,
Wilkinson6@... writes:

My younger kids (5 and 8) don't like to go upstairs by themselves at
night. Sometimes in the day too, (esp. if they have just seen
something scary on tv).



~~~

I remember *being* like this. We had a "rec room" in the basement when I
was a kid. Lots of room for lounging about, and so the whole family spent
Saturday nights down there watching TV and drifting off to sleep after the news
(no one wanted to wake up enough to get up and turn the TV off, so I would
often wake up when the "ant races" came on).

I remember one time, when I was about 9. It was springtime, and we had all
been out doing stuff all day, playing or working in the yard. The house was
cleaned up and I was freshly washed. Dad asked me to go upstairs and adjust
the thermostat, something I'd never done before. I was proud that he asked
me to do something important and just for adults, but I was scared to DEATH.
I said I didn't want to. He cajoled me into it, and it was obvious my
brothers weren't going to budge. I finally opened the basement door, flipped on
the hall light, looked up the stairs for a second...I KNEW my family was
watching to see if I would run. I took a deep breath and started up the stairs at
kid-pace, but not running. Turned the corner at the middle landing and RAN
the rest of the way to the thermostat just at the top of the stairs.

I stood there, breathing heavily, and remembered the instructions. I
adjusted it just like Dad told me to do. Proud of myself for doing it "just
right", I took a deep breath in appreciation of the heat coming on. Then, I
realized I wasn't afraid anymore. I stood there at the top of the stairs, took a
look around the living room, flipped off the light and walked calmly down the
stairs.

My pride had overcome my fear.
Karen

www.badchair.net


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