mozafamily

"The kids love school but it is overwhelming for them and the rest
of us are currently paying a fairly steep price of dealing with
overly tired,
extremely grumpy kids."

I disagree - Most things that kids truely "Love" wont make them
overly tired and extremely grumpy, especially this old an age, they
can communicate with you their needs! (I can remember a 14mos or 2yo
doing something forever until they figured it out or exhaustion took
over) In my opinion they're telling you that it's NOT WORKING!
Ask them exactly what it is they "Love" about school - is it being
with their friends? Could you arrange for them to spend more time
with other kids if you took them out of school? I doubt it is having
to sit still, wait in line for everything and do only what they are
told... etc. Is there something there they don't want to leave but
you could get this for them at home? my son "Tried" kindy for a few
months (at his request, will write more another time) - what did he
miss most? He wanted the Putt-Putt computer game! So I got it for
him! If you were to ask him after that if there was anything he
missed about kindy he will tell you - Nothing! This year when the
neighbor kids went back - he would have gone to first grade - I
didn't even have to ask - he readily expressed his feelings that he
was glad he didn't have to go to "School" anymore - although mabye I
could sneak him into the playground sometime? ( LOL) On second
thought perhaps not a LOL - I'm realizine that the super big
playground at the school is OFF LIMITS to students when it's not
their 15 minutes of time during the day, you drive by the school and
see the playground - kindof calling to the child to come and play -
but the only way the child can play is if they're enrolled in school
and then they aren't allowed to play to their fill - just a little
taste each day - and then ONLY if they behave "properly" enough for
the teacher to grant them such a "reward". It's like the child
abductor waving a piece of candy in front of it's victom's face,
encouraging the child to go with them! I think I'm starting to feel
sick now! I think I will remind my son that I will take him to any
of the city parks whenever he wants and, of course, he is free to
play in our own backyard whenever he wants, that perhaps that the
school playground just has too high of an "admission fee" for us to
be able to afford it!

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/24/04 1:05:27 PM, mozafamily@... writes:

<< On second

thought perhaps not a LOL - I'm realizine that the super big

playground at the school is OFF LIMITS to students when it's not

their 15 minutes of time during the day, you drive by the school and

see the playground - kindof calling to the child to come and play -

but the only way the child can play is if they're enrolled in school

and then they aren't allowed to play to their fill - just a little

taste each day >>

Here the school playgrounds are open and unlocked, all the ones around where
we've lived. Some are incorporated half and half with city parks, so kids can
go to the equipment after hours.

There are things people love that make them tired. Grumpy isn't necessarily
a sign that they're not having fun, but it might be.

Sandra

J. Stauffer

<< I disagree - Most things that kids truely "Love" wont make them
> overly tired and extremely grumpy, especially this old an age,>>

I reckon you can disagree if you want to......I prefer to believe what my
children tell me is their experience. My kids have never lived on any kind
of schedule before and I think that is where the overly tired and grumpy
comes in. My dd (5) who stated she loved school is already awake when I go
in to get her up at 6:30, asking if it is school time yet. She bounces out
the door to meet the bus. I don't think this honeymoon will last......it
didn't with my other kids.....but I take Michelle's statements at face
value.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "mozafamily" <mozafamily@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:03 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] About the child who "Loves" school...


> "The kids love school but it is overwhelming for them and the rest
> of us are currently paying a fairly steep price of dealing with
> overly tired,
> extremely grumpy kids."
>
> I disagree - Most things that kids truely "Love" wont make them
> overly tired and extremely grumpy, especially this old an age, they
> can communicate with you their needs! (I can remember a 14mos or 2yo
> doing something forever until they figured it out or exhaustion took
> over) In my opinion they're telling you that it's NOT WORKING!
> Ask them exactly what it is they "Love" about school - is it being
> with their friends? Could you arrange for them to spend more time
> with other kids if you took them out of school? I doubt it is having
> to sit still, wait in line for everything and do only what they are
> told... etc. Is there something there they don't want to leave but
> you could get this for them at home? my son "Tried" kindy for a few
> months (at his request, will write more another time) - what did he
> miss most? He wanted the Putt-Putt computer game! So I got it for
> him! If you were to ask him after that if there was anything he
> missed about kindy he will tell you - Nothing! This year when the
> neighbor kids went back - he would have gone to first grade - I
> didn't even have to ask - he readily expressed his feelings that he
> was glad he didn't have to go to "School" anymore - although mabye I
> could sneak him into the playground sometime? ( LOL) On second
> thought perhaps not a LOL - I'm realizine that the super big
> playground at the school is OFF LIMITS to students when it's not
> their 15 minutes of time during the day, you drive by the school and
> see the playground - kindof calling to the child to come and play -
> but the only way the child can play is if they're enrolled in school
> and then they aren't allowed to play to their fill - just a little
> taste each day - and then ONLY if they behave "properly" enough for
> the teacher to grant them such a "reward". It's like the child
> abductor waving a piece of candy in front of it's victom's face,
> encouraging the child to go with them! I think I'm starting to feel
> sick now! I think I will remind my son that I will take him to any
> of the city parks whenever he wants and, of course, he is free to
> play in our own backyard whenever he wants, that perhaps that the
> school playground just has too high of an "admission fee" for us to
> be able to afford it!
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

mozafamily

Okey - I think I am seeing your point, I do try to believe what my
child tells me as well. The schedule could obviously affect
sleepyness and this is just the beginning of the school year so I do
agree with what you mentioned about waiting for awhile if their
words eventually match their mood. I'm alo obviously not trusting
the parents enough to think that they will do the right thing by the
child, I know that is something I need to work on, I just see so
many parents who don't "do right" by their children sometimes I
apparently go on the child's defensive too quickly, obviously there
is a parent who is trying to do the correct thing by the children in
this case. Sorry I jumped too quickly on that - I am trying to
balance my emotions which are definately running wild these days
with the "back to school" thang. It's just when a young child's
words don't match their actions it does make me suspicous. As a mom
who let her child try kindy because he wanted to and we have now
since delt with many of the side effects of the experience, I
suppose now I am so "school" scared that I just want to save any
child from the negative effects of school and from parents who put
their children there with no chance of them ever getting them out
(like a jail). But if my child had not have tried school then he may
perhaps feel like he is "missing out" on something, he wouldn't have
his own experiences and reasonings to rely on as to why he doesn't
want to be in that situation. Perhaps we wouldn't have had the many
conversations about what my son wanted to do to solve certain
situations, for going to "school" so little last year my son
certainly has "learned" a lot and I'm not talking only the 3 Rs!
While my son was in kindy I made some extra money by substituting -
I do have 3 college degrees one of which is a bachelors of
education - frankly subbing was a pretty big eye opener for me as
well! Another way in which I would have probably not have known what
was going on. Sure I could think that schools are child friendly
places and all teachers are caring helpful people, but I got to jump
into schools as one of them, in place of an absent one of them,
almost an equal - I did several "class within classes" which were
continual shockers to me that the children are truely treated that
poorly by the teachers. I saw many examples of children being yelled
at and verbally abused (physical abuse was rarer but not
nonexistant), as well as just frankly being treated with NO respect
or that their opinions or interests mattered in the least. I
witnessed second graders being ordered to line up on the second
block and "at attention" - OOPs too late - No recess for you today
you better stop behaving like babies, you know better than playing
like that, if your regular music teacher was here she would make
sure you weren't having fun like that! Or a high school student who
didn't have his planner had asked to go to the bathroom the teacher
was going to simply make him "hold it" all period - "It will make
him learn to be more responsibe" the teacher said - I said "It will
make him learn not to share his problems with adults" and wrote him
a pass anyway - Of course that particular school didn't call me back
for anothe day as a sub. but I could have cared less! I had a math
teacher who was screaming at "LD" 9th grader because he
wasn't "getting" a particular concept she was trying to teach - the
child kept raising his hand and she kept yelling at him that he
didn't need to ask any questions that he should be writing down his
lessons. After watching the interaction for a few minutes I realized
the student was trying to ask for a piece of paper to try and
satisfy his raging teacher - I walked over and gave him one and he
started working after he mouthed me a quick "thank you" the teacher
glared at me for awhile before picking another student to torture. I
had this particular teacher's class one day when she was at a
conference and converted the problems to $ instead of the way she
had them written and they made a lot of progress, you could actually
see them understanding the problems because $ was something that
they wanted to know how to deal with, I'm not saying it would work
with all students, etc. but they were making progress, when I
dropped my suggestion to the teacher in the teacher's lunchroom the
next day she said something to me along the lines of "that's not
real math - that won't help them in the real world!" I only
substituted for the half a year my son went to kindy - only
occasional days and when my son wanted to go to school which became
less and less as time went on because he simply didn't like being
treated as though his feelings an opinions didn't matter. But what I
saw in the schools when I substituted was enough for me to realize
that schools really arn't places where kids learn - they're places
where kids are housed while their parents work or somewhere they're
sent because someone thinks "it's for their own good", they're
comparable to a factory that turns out "compliant workers" or
they're a kindof jail to keep them off of the streets and out of
grown ups way but they are NOT places where children learn anything
other than to not think for themselves. If I hadn't have substituted
then I wouldn't have known that things really are THAT BAD, I would
have possibly thought they weren't good but now I KNOW.
I'm sorry that I have written a book - obviously I have a problem
with schools and I will have as long as it is obvious teachers feel
that it is okey for them to behave in this manner or it wouldn't be
so universal in all the schools.

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@d...>
wrote:
> << I disagree - Most things that kids truely "Love" wont make them
> > overly tired and extremely grumpy, especially this old an age,>>
>
> I reckon you can disagree if you want to......I prefer to believe
what my
> children tell me is their experience. My kids have never lived on
any kind
> of schedule before and I think that is where the overly tired and
grumpy
> comes in. My dd (5) who stated she loved school is already awake
when I go
> in to get her up at 6:30, asking if it is school time yet. She
bounces out
> the door to meet the bus. I don't think this honeymoon will
last......it
> didn't with my other kids.....but I take Michelle's statements at
face
> value.
>
> Julie S.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mozafamily" <mozafamily@y...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:03 PM
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] About the child who "Loves" school...
>
>
> > "The kids love school but it is overwhelming for them and the
rest
> > of us are currently paying a fairly steep price of dealing with
> > overly tired,
> > extremely grumpy kids."
> >
> > I disagree - Most things that kids truely "Love" wont make them
> > overly tired and extremely grumpy, especially this old an age,
they
> > can communicate with you their needs! (I can remember a 14mos or
2yo
> > doing something forever until they figured it out or exhaustion
took
> > over) In my opinion they're telling you that it's NOT WORKING!
> > Ask them exactly what it is they "Love" about school - is it
being
> > with their friends? Could you arrange for them to spend more time
> > with other kids if you took them out of school? I doubt it is
having
> > to sit still, wait in line for everything and do only what they
are
> > told... etc. Is there something there they don't want to leave
but
> > you could get this for them at home? my son "Tried" kindy for a
few
> > months (at his request, will write more another time) - what did
he
> > miss most? He wanted the Putt-Putt computer game! So I got it for
> > him! If you were to ask him after that if there was anything he
> > missed about kindy he will tell you - Nothing! This year when the
> > neighbor kids went back - he would have gone to first grade - I
> > didn't even have to ask - he readily expressed his feelings that
he
> > was glad he didn't have to go to "School" anymore - although
mabye I
> > could sneak him into the playground sometime? ( LOL) On second
> > thought perhaps not a LOL - I'm realizine that the super big
> > playground at the school is OFF LIMITS to students when it's not
> > their 15 minutes of time during the day, you drive by the school
and
> > see the playground - kindof calling to the child to come and
play -
> > but the only way the child can play is if they're enrolled in
school
> > and then they aren't allowed to play to their fill - just a
little
> > taste each day - and then ONLY if they behave "properly" enough
for
> > the teacher to grant them such a "reward". It's like the child
> > abductor waving a piece of candy in front of it's victom's face,
> > encouraging the child to go with them! I think I'm starting to
feel
> > sick now! I think I will remind my son that I will take him to
any
> > of the city parks whenever he wants and, of course, he is free to
> > play in our own backyard whenever he wants, that perhaps that the
> > school playground just has too high of an "admission fee" for us
to
> > be able to afford it!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Game-Enthusiast

you wrote:
the
school playground just has too high of an "admission fee" for us to
be able to afford it!

-----------------------------------------------

Around here, you can play at the school play grounds anytime school is NOT
in session. Just an idea.

Angela
game-enthusiast@...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Krisula Moyer

>>I'm realizine that the super big
playground at the school is OFF LIMITS to students when it's not
their 15 minutes of time during the day, you drive by the school and
see the playground - kindof calling to the child to come and play -
but the only way the child can play is if they're enrolled in school
and then they aren't allowed to play to their fill - just a little
taste each day - and then ONLY if they behave "properly" enough for
the teacher to grant them such a "reward". <<

This is so sad. My kids have always loved going to those big school
playgrounds. In our area they are considered 'public' meaning anyone can
use them after school hours. One time, though, we were passing by before
school (it was the first week of school in September) and the kids were
being told no and to get off the equipment and get in line. One teacher
took my son's razer scooter and told him "they are not allowed" and that he
could get it back from the principal's office. He told her he did not go to
school there but she didn't believe him. I had to go retrieve it for him.

mozafamily

Thanks for your strory - unfortunately it sounds like the norm
that they did not believe the child!
They make it a point to lock the school yards up here - they lock
the kids in and lock others out during school playtime as well - I
agree that they should be public but they derive that to
mean "public school use only" and not public use like the city
parks. It's similar to them locking the school buildings only the
one entrance right in front of the office is left unlocked during
school time - to many problems with a student deciding to leave or a
parent getting in and observing without having an "escort" from the
office, it happened once about 2 years ago in this district, a
father came in during school and didn't sign in with the office upon
arrival and quietly observed his child's classroom for a few minutes
before he was "found out", apparently he "found out" enough also
because he immediately withdrew his child from that school and
enrolled them in a local private school.
They say the locks are for the child's protection - I personally
think the children need more protection from the school. Even fire
doors are locked from the inside so a teacher has to unlock them
before the children can leave the building for a fire drill. An
older child might be able to pull the lock but what if a small kindy
or 1st grader was trying to get out in case of a fire? Their
reasonings are beyond me!

Also :
If SCHOOL did not exist:

-the minimum work age would be lower -
that and the amount of children competing for "adult" jobs were the
main reasons that the compulsory school laws were created in the
first place around 100 years ago. Sure a few hopefuls thought they
were doing it to better the children but the work issue was the
major reason it passed.
Now, not that I think 10 year olds should be working all day in a
factory but perhaps they could have cound a better solution than
forcing all 10 year olds to be in a "public school factory" all day
instead. If you think about it 100 years isn't that much time sure
universities and schools have been around for longer than that but
they're not compulsory - they were for those who chose to go! (And
probably had the $ too, nothing is simple.) How has the country
become so addicted to something that is really such a young
idea?
Already most believe that it is the way it HAS to be, that you're
clearly a law breaker if your child does anything other than public
school! But I suppose since the USA is only over 200 years old
itself then half of that time has been spent compulsory schooling,
it definately seems like another American fundamental thang. But I
haven't had much time to research many other countries either, that
gives me someting interesting to research when I get the time. Moza



--- In [email protected], "Krisula Moyer"
<krisulam@v...> wrote:
> >>I'm realizine that the super big
> playground at the school is OFF LIMITS to students when it's not
> their 15 minutes of time during the day, you drive by the school
and
> see the playground - kindof calling to the child to come and play -
> but the only way the child can play is if they're enrolled in
school
> and then they aren't allowed to play to their fill - just a little
> taste each day - and then ONLY if they behave "properly" enough for
> the teacher to grant them such a "reward". <<
>
> This is so sad. My kids have always loved going to those big
school
> playgrounds. In our area they are considered 'public' meaning
anyone can
> use them after school hours. One time, though, we were passing by
before
> school (it was the first week of school in September) and the kids
were
> being told no and to get off the equipment and get in line. One
teacher
> took my son's razer scooter and told him "they are not allowed"
and that he
> could get it back from the principal's office. He told her he did
not go to
> school there but she didn't believe him. I had to go retrieve it
for him.

Dana Matt

He
> told her he did not go to
> school there but she didn't believe him. I had to
> go retrieve it for him.

OMG@!

Last summer we went by my old elementary school in
another state, and I wanted the kids to see it....It
was July, and about 5:30 in the afternoon, so I
figured it would be empty. We wandered onto the
playground, and there were all these kids playing. A
woman swooped down, screeching at us, that people
weren't allowed, EVER, in the playground, and that
this was her daycare group and they had a right to be
there...I tried to explain my story, but as she had
seen my husband first she had visions of stalking
child molesters in her head and wouldn't listen, so we
left....

Dana
in MOntana




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nellebelle

>>>Last summer we went by my old elementary school in another state, and I wanted the kids to see it>>>>>

This reminds me of something. Last December we were visiting my home town. I realized that I was explaining everything to my kids in relation to my "school days". After I noticed that, I made a conscious effort to say things like, "when I was 10" instead of "when I was in fifth grade". Or, "when I was a teenager we used to..." instead of "when I was in high school we used to..."

Of course I attended school as a child, so much of my life did involve school. But I felt that I was glorifying my school days by telling my kids stories in that way. Even if the story was about school, by rewording it, I put the focus on the story being about something that happened to ME rather than about school.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]