[email protected]

Hi~I just reread my post and would like to apologize as we didn't just ride
it out. We did what you are speaking of. Providing safe, healthy alternatives
for him to deal w/these powerful emotions. It's an ongoing process...younger
children tend to have a difficult time talking about their emotions and I've
read aren't neurologically ready to until they are at least ten, I think it was.
We've incorporated into out daily living ways to express ourselves safely and
harmlessly and I feel it's important to provide opportunities for my son to
feel empowered. It is definitely an ongoing process w/no quick fix, at least
for us.

Would also like to just thank everyone for their insights as I've been
lurking for a few weeks and really appreciate theand heartfelt honesty of this
group.

Thanks,
Debbie~:)



In a message dated 5/24/04 12:09:13 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
> <Thank you, Miranda, for sharing this. I actually think I may have found
> a way to show my daughter just how hard it is for others to watch her
> hurt herself. Things seem to be a little better and now she's thinking
> of the natural consequences of hurting herself before she does it. I
> don't know what the future will bring, but I know to look for signs in
> her for anger and hopefully can teach her how to head it off and deal
> with it in a healthy way. Thanks again. Heidi



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Mapel

Hi Sandra, I appreciate the discussion we are having
and the thoughts that you have shared. I would like
to add a few clarifying thoughts of my own.

...on choice, below you responded to my point about
reaction versus choice...

...I don't think anyone ever chooses "the exact
opposite" in all things........But with unschooling
it's neither of those things.....

I never meant to imply that someone would choose the
opposite in all things, however in individual things
like how we discipline, how we nurture, how we set
boundaries, etc... the choice itself may either be a
conscious choice or a reaction depending on how much
we have resolved any issues, should there be any that
would influence a reaction versus a true choice. To
just outright say that with unschooling this is not
the case, in my opinion is a generalization that does
not take into account the personal experience of the
individual in the given situation.

Again to my point about inadequate boundaries where i
write:

-=- Inadequate boundaries leaves the child not knowing
what is and is not safe, they don't know where the
parent actually is, and that is a scary feeling.-=-

You responded by saying,

"That's not an issue with attachment parenting."

Well, on one level I agree with you, true AP honors
the full needs of the child including the needed
boundaries etc..., however, given that we are all
human, we bring into our parenting experiences both
the healthy and unhealthy influences from our past.
At times these influences negatively effect our
ability to set healthy boundaries even when in theory
we are APing. I have witnessed many AP parents
struggle with their own childhood issues and therefore
at times be unable to identify the true needs of their
child. Parenting consciously is a ongoing growth
experience. We are not Gods, we make mistakes, we
learn. The decision to practice AP while a huge step
in the right direction, does not excempt us from these
lessons, or from the influences of our past. Only our
personal committment to seperating out our own issues
from those of our child will allow our children to
unfold naturally.




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Mary Mapel

Hi Heidi,

I am glad that you are finding a solution that seems
to be working. My son went through a few infrequent
expressions of wanting to hurt himself if he didn't
get his way. My response, was to hold him closely,
tell him i love him, and show how sad i was to see him
do that. I told him it was my job to protect him, and
i wasn't going to let him hurt himself. So i rocked
him, cuddled him, nursed him. I directed his
anger/frustration outwards to hitting pillows, or
giving him the language that could help him articulate
his feelings. I matched his intonations with equal
passion when he verbalized "I want to...", I repeated
his statements to let him know i heard him. I
affirmed his right to be angry. And because i loved
him it was my job to keep him safe. He seemed to get
it, and let it go as an option.

It sounds to me like your solution is very similar.
You surround her with love, and let her know it is sad
for you when she hurts herself. Repeating the injury
on yourself, is dramatic. My only concern is that it
might be hard to understand why mommy can do it and
not her, but it sounds like she is getting the
underlying message which is both mommy and she should
not hurt themselves. I would say trust your intuition
on this one, and observe her response. The comment by
another list member about being careful about
therapists is a good one. As a counselor myself, i
hate to say that there are many professionals out
there that are not child centered, and are quick to
label and create more problem than previously existed.
Having said all that, it is a gem to find a truly AP
centered therapist who provides the needed help.
Someone mentioned Jan Hunt. Jan is wonderful. I have
spoken with her and she is great. I found her
particular useful for information and resouces, as
well as normalizing the sometimes unheard of
behaviours that our children sometimes choose. If you
were wanting to do your own deep work around an issue
however, then someone else might be a better choice,
as i found Jan to be more of an educator than a
therapist. (This might be perfect)

In my response to you I didn't mean for it to sound
like I definately thought that you were "unparenting",
however i did wonder if healthy boundaries were in
place. I am glad to hear that they are. You are
absolutely right when you say "you can't always do as
she demands", and your statement let's me know that
you do have boundaries with her. The video choice,
even though it is Disney, still concerns me. It is
not a choice that i would make. Even though the self
hurting behaviour began before the videos started i
would still be very selective about showing them. I am
curious to know what harm you think could come from
limiting her viewing or something that potentially may
be disturbing to her? I agree with the other reader
that said she might be a wonderfully sensitive child
who has difficultly processing the images in these
videos. However, above all, I think that after
gathering all the information, you are the best one to
make the decision for your child, and you will
ultimately know what is best.


Any way Heidi, I wish you the best. blessings, mary


> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:42:05 -0400
> From: badolbilz <ynxn96@...>
> Subject: Re: thoughts about kids hurting themselves.
>
> Thank you, Mary. We have changed our lifestyle
> since becoming
> unschoolers, but not to a point of outright
> unparenting, which is what I
> suspect you read into it. My comment on her perhaps
> picking up violence
> from movies was based on movies like Sinbad and
> other cartoon-types
> where someone gets killed. Perhaps she's not ready
> for these things,
> but she is interested in watching them and I feel it
> would be more
> harmful to forbid these things than to let her
> watch.
>
> Mostly, she hurts herself or threatens to when she
> doesn't get her way.
> An example would be if I don't do what she asked at
> just that moment,
> she threatens to hurt herself. If I get after her
> for doing something
> inapproriate to one of her sisters, she may threaten
> to kill herself.
> In reading that, you may think she's just spoiled.
> The worry then is
> sometimes she actually will hurt herself. Then
> older she gets, there
> are more ways she can hurt herself. I can't always
> do as she demands.
> I can't punish her for hurting herself. I haven'e
> been able to stop
> her from hurting herself. I have thought long and
> hard about what to do
> to help her learn to deal with impatience, anger,
> and frustration. It
> could be just a stage she's going through at 3 1/2.
> What really bothers
> me is that she's been hurting herself since about 18
> months. It
> definitely wasn't from watching movies and tv then.
>
> So I've began a new strategy. It's rather extreme
> and I really don't
> know if it's the "right" thing to do...but she
> hasn't hurt herself in
> over two weeks. It began like this: After one
> episode where she was
> yanking her hair and threatening to run out in the
> street to get hit by
> a car, I say her on my lap and said that I loved
> her. That every time
> she got hurt, it hurt me because I love her so much.
> I told her that I
> gave birth to her out of my tummy because I wanted
> her to be alive and
> to be happy. Then I told her that because she
> couldn't see how much it
> hurt me when she hurt herself, I would show her.
> From then on, whenever
> she hurt herself, I would do the same thing to
> myself. And I have. The
> last time she's hurt herself was at this computer.
> She was upset
> because the game she was playing was too hard so she
> began to slam her
> knee on the edge of the desk. So I did the same. I
> ended up cutting my
> knee in two places and making a huge bruise. I know
> this sounds awful
> and very dramatic and I guess it is. But it made a
> huge impression on
> her. She was very upset to see her mommy hurt. I
> told her that's how
> upset I feel when she hurts herself.
>
> I have no idea if this is the right thing to do.
> But it's all I could
> think of.
>
> Thank you for your insights. Heidi
>
>





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Dana Matt

> -=- Inadequate boundaries leaves the child not
> knowing
> what is and is not safe, they don't know where the
> parent actually is, and that is a scary feeling.-=-
>

Mary, when you say this it reminds me of my neighbor,
who told me she couldn't let her kids out of the house
anymore during the day, because when she was drunk she
always lost them, which made her husband mad...

But seriously, what kind of "adequate boundaries" are
you suggesting need to be in our children's lives? To
keep them away from age-inappropriate movies? Maybe
plug in our TV and internet watch dogs to keep them
from straying into that which they surely don't
need...even if they want it? Oh, better read all of
their library books before they do as well....there
might be something suspect in them....

In our house, the viewer decides for him and herself
what to watch, and no one else...But mom and dad are
there to discuss before, during and after what they
might see.....Does that make me a "bad" parent, Mary?
I don't see my children looking around saying "Where
is my mother! I'm scared!" as you suggest....

Perhaps I am misreading you, but I think there are
many unschoolers who would have "inadequate
boundaries" in your opinion.....

Dana
in Montana





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