Mary Mapel

Dear Heidi, It seems to me like your child is trying to make sense of the negative images she is watching sense you say she sees it on the videos. I don't know you, however, I am wondering if it is possible that your child is crying out for some healthy boundaries and structure. As an unschooling parent I like to follow my son's lead and support him in what he wishes to learn, however, at the same time it is still my job to protect hime, set healthy boundaries and provide a structure that supports his natural unfolding. I will censor the videos he watches until he is emotionally mature enough to handle the content, because early exposure has proven to cause distress in children. Just talking about the content is not enough when the child is not emotinally mature enough to handle the content. I will choose developmentally appropriate books, activities, etc... until such an age when he is emotionally mature enough to make those decisions himself. This, i believe will occur in
incremental steps, and be a wonderful learning experience for him. It is not impeding his learning, nor dictating what he can or can not discuss, it is protecting him so that he is not overwhelmed so much that no real learning can take place. The difficulty is that many of us (me) have experienced controlling boundaries growing up, that weren't boundaries at all, but rigid walls, rules that were dictator like rather than an obviously keeping us safe and secure. Choosing the exact opposite of what we may have experience as a child is a reaction, and not really a choice at all, since it is so linked to our parent's behaviour.As a counselor i have often seen a swing in parenting styles from parents who grew up with too rigid boundaries in turn have little or no boundaries for their children. Yet healthy structure and boundaries is an innate need of all children, and if they are not there the child tries to punish themselves, or expresses their distress in some other way.
Inadequate boundaries leaves the child not knowing what is and is not safe, they don't know where the parent actually is, and that is a scary feeling.I have also witnessed that some kids need more structure than others in order for their day to go smoothly. Unschooling, again, doesn't in my opinion rule out structure in the day. It is child centered, so it means understanding the specific needs of the individual child and then providing the support, nurturing and structure that best allows the child to grow in his own way.Like i said, I don't know if this is what is going on for you and your family, but just in case my thoughts are helpful I thought i would share them with you.

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In a message dated 5/23/04 8:14:42 PM, marymapel@... writes:

<< Choosing the exact opposite of what we may have experience as a child is
a reaction, and not really a choice at all, since it is so linked to our
parent's behaviour. >>

I don't think anyone ever chooses "the exact opposite" in all things.

Most people choose "exact same" by having the same table rules and the same
bedtime and the same spanking routines they grew up with.

In another large group, people might be reactionary and reject things without
replacing them with something else thoughtfully chosen.

But with unschooling it's neither of those things.

-=- Inadequate boundaries leaves the child not knowing what is and is not
safe, they don't know where the parent actually is, and that is a scary
feeling.-=-

That's not an issue with attachment parenting.

Sandra

badolbilz

Thank you, Mary. We have changed our lifestyle since becoming
unschoolers, but not to a point of outright unparenting, which is what I
suspect you read into it. My comment on her perhaps picking up violence
from movies was based on movies like Sinbad and other cartoon-types
where someone gets killed. Perhaps she's not ready for these things,
but she is interested in watching them and I feel it would be more
harmful to forbid these things than to let her watch.

Mostly, she hurts herself or threatens to when she doesn't get her way.
An example would be if I don't do what she asked at just that moment,
she threatens to hurt herself. If I get after her for doing something
inapproriate to one of her sisters, she may threaten to kill herself.
In reading that, you may think she's just spoiled. The worry then is
sometimes she actually will hurt herself. Then older she gets, there
are more ways she can hurt herself. I can't always do as she demands.
I can't punish her for hurting herself. I haven'e been able to stop
her from hurting herself. I have thought long and hard about what to do
to help her learn to deal with impatience, anger, and frustration. It
could be just a stage she's going through at 3 1/2. What really bothers
me is that she's been hurting herself since about 18 months. It
definitely wasn't from watching movies and tv then.

So I've began a new strategy. It's rather extreme and I really don't
know if it's the "right" thing to do...but she hasn't hurt herself in
over two weeks. It began like this: After one episode where she was
yanking her hair and threatening to run out in the street to get hit by
a car, I say her on my lap and said that I loved her. That every time
she got hurt, it hurt me because I love her so much. I told her that I
gave birth to her out of my tummy because I wanted her to be alive and
to be happy. Then I told her that because she couldn't see how much it
hurt me when she hurt herself, I would show her. From then on, whenever
she hurt herself, I would do the same thing to myself. And I have. The
last time she's hurt herself was at this computer. She was upset
because the game she was playing was too hard so she began to slam her
knee on the edge of the desk. So I did the same. I ended up cutting my
knee in two places and making a huge bruise. I know this sounds awful
and very dramatic and I guess it is. But it made a huge impression on
her. She was very upset to see her mommy hurt. I told her that's how
upset I feel when she hurts herself.

I have no idea if this is the right thing to do. But it's all I could
think of.

Thank you for your insights. Heidi



Mary Mapel wrote:

>Dear Heidi, It seems to me like your child is trying to make sense of the negative images she is watching sense you say she sees it on the videos. I don't know you, however, I am wondering if it is possible that your child is crying out for some healthy boundaries and structure. As an unschooling parent I like to follow my son's lead and support him in what he wishes to learn, however, at the same time it is still my job to protect hime, set healthy boundaries and provide a structure that supports his natural unfolding. I will censor the videos he watches until he is emotionally mature enough to handle the content, because early exposure has proven to cause distress in children. Just talking about the content is not enough when the child is not emotinally mature enough to handle the content. I will choose developmentally appropriate books, activities, etc... until such an age when he is emotionally mature enough to make those decisions himself. This, i believe will occur in
> incremental steps, and be a wonderful learning experience for him. It is not impeding his learning, nor dictating what he can or can not discuss, it is protecting him so that he is not overwhelmed so much that no real learning can take place. The difficulty is that many of us (me) have experienced controlling boundaries growing up, that weren't boundaries at all, but rigid walls, rules that were dictator like rather than an obviously keeping us safe and secure. Choosing the exact opposite of what we may have experience as a child is a reaction, and not really a choice at all, since it is so linked to our parent's behaviour.As a counselor i have often seen a swing in parenting styles from parents who grew up with too rigid boundaries in turn have little or no boundaries for their children. Yet healthy structure and boundaries is an innate need of all children, and if they are not there the child tries to punish themselves, or expresses their distress in some other way.
> Inadequate boundaries leaves the child not knowing what is and is not safe, they don't know where the parent actually is, and that is a scary feeling.I have also witnessed that some kids need more structure than others in order for their day to go smoothly. Unschooling, again, doesn't in my opinion rule out structure in the day. It is child centered, so it means understanding the specific needs of the individual child and then providing the support, nurturing and structure that best allows the child to grow in his own way.Like i said, I don't know if this is what is going on for you and your family, but just in case my thoughts are helpful I thought i would share them with you.
>
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 13:42:05 -0400 badolbilz <ynxn96@...>
writes:
> Then I told her that because she couldn't see how much it
> hurt me when she hurt herself, I would show her. From then on,
whenever
> she hurt herself, I would do the same thing to myself. And I have.

I have some really serious concerns about this technique. That's an
awful lot of power and responsibility to put on one little person - the
power to hurt Mommy, even when she didn't intend to. You're also modeling
hurting yourself, which is exactly what you *don't* want her to do. It
may "work" in the short term, but I would be really concerned with the
longer-term implications.

Rain at that age would very occasionally do or say something
self-destructive, but she was more focused outward. I was physically
self-destructive for years, though, and then later I worked in the mental
health field with people who were physically self-destructive, and then
even later I taught kids with emotional and behavioral disorders, some of
whom would do self-destructive acts. What worked, in all cases, was to
physically prevent self-destructive acts (when possible), while telling
the person that you wouldn't permit anyone to hurt her while you were
around because you cared about her and didn't want her to be hurt... and
then refocus on resolving the issue at hand, the issue that triggered the
self-destructiveness. It was important to stay very low-key and matter of
fact, and to make it clear that you were emotionally strong enough to
handle things. What made it worse was flipping out and yelling and
getting emotional... which I know is harder than it sounds, especially
with your own child, but it's important.

This may not work as quickly as what you're doing, but I think it's a
better soloution in the long run.

Dar

badolbilz

I really do think that what I've been doing isn't right. But it's been
an act of desperation. Your comments that I'm putting a great deal of
responsability onto such a young person is true. Yikes. This is such a
hard situation. The last thing I want to do is make things worse for
her, but I need to stop her from doing these things. Heidi

freeform@... wrote:

>On Mon, 24 May 2004 13:42:05 -0400 badolbilz <ynxn96@...>
>writes:
>
>
>> Then I told her that because she couldn't see how much it
>>hurt me when she hurt herself, I would show her. From then on,
>>
>>
>whenever
>
>
>>she hurt herself, I would do the same thing to myself. And I have.
>>
>>
>
>I have some really serious concerns about this technique. That's an
>awful lot of power and responsibility to put on one little person - the
>power to hurt Mommy, even when she didn't intend to. You're also modeling
>hurting yourself, which is exactly what you *don't* want her to do. It
>may "work" in the short term, but I would be really concerned with the
>longer-term implications.
>
>Rain at that age would very occasionally do or say something
>self-destructive, but she was more focused outward. I was physically
>self-destructive for years, though, and then later I worked in the mental
>health field with people who were physically self-destructive, and then
>even later I taught kids with emotional and behavioral disorders, some of
>whom would do self-destructive acts. What worked, in all cases, was to
>physically prevent self-destructive acts (when possible), while telling
>the person that you wouldn't permit anyone to hurt her while you were
>around because you cared about her and didn't want her to be hurt... and
>then refocus on resolving the issue at hand, the issue that triggered the
>self-destructiveness. It was important to stay very low-key and matter of
>fact, and to make it clear that you were emotionally strong enough to
>handle things. What made it worse was flipping out and yelling and
>getting emotional... which I know is harder than it sounds, especially
>with your own child, but it's important.
>
>This may not work as quickly as what you're doing, but I think it's a
>better soloution in the long run.
>
>Dar
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

foxymophandlemama32

> What worked, in all cases, was to physically prevent self-
destructive acts (when possible), while telling the person that you
wouldn't permit anyone to hurt her while you were around because you
cared about her and didn't want her to be hurt... and then refocus on
resolving the issue at hand, the issue that triggered the self-
destructiveness. It was important to stay very low-key and matter of
fact, and to make it clear that you were emotionally strong enough
to handle things. What made it worse was flipping out and yelling and
getting emotional... which I know is harder than it sounds,
especially with your own child, but it's important.
This may not work as quickly as what you're doing, but I think it's
a better soloution in the long run.

Dar

In the first year of marriage, I went through some pretty tough stuff
with my dh and I found myself at times scratching my arms up or
something similar. For me it was about feeling out of control. I
didn't know whether I had a right to feel the way I did and whether I
was the problem in our marriage and when I reached a point of huge
emotional confusion (usually after an argument)I would hurt myself
because at least I knew that I was responsible for *this* pain. I
think too that it was a way of punishing myself and if I did this
then Mark wouldn't feel the need to continue to make me feel bad. I
know that if someone had done to me what Dar is suggesting, I would
have responded positively.

Julie, went no mail several months ago so haven't posted in ages

badolbilz

Julie, I'm sorry to hear you went through such a bad time. You say that
the times you hurt yourself were times when you were hurting emotionally
and struggling for some kind of control. I see this in my daughter.
She's trying very hard to control her situations and the people
involved. So many people tell me how amazed they are at her vocabulary
for her age, but I think that for her, it's not enough. She has two
older sisters who do everything together and one younger one who is just
starting to play with others, so essentially she's a middle child. I
think she's feeling a great deal of frustration about this. I do hope
that as my youngest gets older, these two girls will be as close as the
older two. Perhaps then my dd won't feel so alone. I also think she's
a person who will always have extremely high expectations of herself. I
would just like to help guide her in setting her high goals while being
patient with herself to attain them. Right now, she feels that if her
older sisters can do it easily, why can't she.

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I hope things are better for you
now. Sincerely, Heidi

foxymophandlemama32 wrote:

>>What worked, in all cases, was to physically prevent self-
>>
>>
>destructive acts (when possible), while telling the person that you
>wouldn't permit anyone to hurt her while you were around because you
>cared about her and didn't want her to be hurt... and then refocus on
>resolving the issue at hand, the issue that triggered the self-
>destructiveness. It was important to stay very low-key and matter of
>fact, and to make it clear that you were emotionally strong enough
>to handle things. What made it worse was flipping out and yelling and
>getting emotional... which I know is harder than it sounds,
>especially with your own child, but it's important.
> This may not work as quickly as what you're doing, but I think it's
>a better soloution in the long run.
>
> Dar
>
>In the first year of marriage, I went through some pretty tough stuff
>with my dh and I found myself at times scratching my arms up or
>something similar. For me it was about feeling out of control. I
>didn't know whether I had a right to feel the way I did and whether I
>was the problem in our marriage and when I reached a point of huge
>emotional confusion (usually after an argument)I would hurt myself
>because at least I knew that I was responsible for *this* pain. I
>think too that it was a way of punishing myself and if I did this
>then Mark wouldn't feel the need to continue to make me feel bad. I
>know that if someone had done to me what Dar is suggesting, I would
>have responded positively.
>
>Julie, went no mail several months ago so haven't posted in ages
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I found myself scratching and digging my nails into my legs a few months ago during a big family meeting with my dad and stepmom. They were lecturing me and I was suddenly 14 again and felt sooooo out of control. I honestly had no idea what I had done until later whan Jason saw my legs and asked me what had happened.

I still feel out of control when we have these meetings with my dad. But now, Jason holds my hand and lets me squeeze his hand and will gentley squeeze back.

~Rebecca



>
> In the first year of marriage, I went through some pretty tough stuff
> with my dh and I found myself at times scratching my arms up or
> something similar. For me it was about feeling out of control. I
> didn't know whether I had a right to feel the way I did and whether I
> was the problem in our marriage and when I reached a point of huge
> emotional confusion (usually after an argument)I would hurt myself
> because at least I knew that I was responsible for *this* pain. I
> think too that it was a way of punishing myself and if I did this
> then Mark wouldn't feel the need to continue to make me feel bad. I
> know that if someone had done to me what Dar is suggesting, I would
> have responded positively.
>
> Julie, went no mail several months ago so haven't posted in ages

foxymophandlemama32

> Thank you for your thoughts on this. I hope things are better for
you now. Sincerely, Heidi

We've been married for 11 years now and couldn't have a better
relationship. I've learned to communicate my needs and to deal with
conflict much more effectively. Still working on not getting
preoccupied with my failures and feeling guilty because I'm not
perfect. The positive side is that I'm more understanding of other
people's failings.

I hope things get better for you and your daughter soon.

Julie