Brandy

Hi everyone,

I was wondering what you do when your kids have started an activity
and then decide that they don't like it and would rather not
continue.

Gavin (almost 6) wanted to play t-ball, so we signed him up. It is
clear that he doesn't enjoy it, he stands on the field saying he's
tired during games, has no interest in going to practice and he told
me that he wanted to skip his game today. I asked him to think about
baseball and tell me how he honestly felt about it, not what he
thought we wanted to hear, but how he truly felt. He came back to me
a little while later and told me that he didn't care for it and he
didn't feel like playing anymore. DH and I are fine with this
decision. My mom thinks that we should make him stick it out because
we paid for it, but I don't see the point in torturing a six year
old for three more months over a measly $80. Not that we have money
to throw around, but his happiness is more of a concern for me.

I think that this is more of a lesson learned for dh and myself,
that in the future if one of the kids asks to sign up for something
because they like the idea of it, we should take them out for a
couple of weeks and try it out on our own, kicking the soccer ball
around on the field or practicing baseball to see if they really
enjoy the activity, or if it's just the idea of it that is
appealing.

I'm also wondering how I should approach this with Gavin. I don't
want to say that he is "quitting" but I'm not sure how to word it.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Brandy...mainly a lurker who likes to soak up lots of info from this
list :)

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/3/04 11:53:06 AM, bdel99@... writes:

<< I was wondering what you do when your kids have started an activity

and then decide that they don't like it and would rather not

continue. >>

Same thing I do if my kids have a half a dozen donuts and decide they don't
want to eat them all after all. Let them throw them away.

Running a donut through your system just because you already paid for it is
harmful and NOT good use of funds.

Same with t-ball. <g>

-=-My mom thinks that we should make him stick it out because

we paid for it, but I don't see the point in torturing a six year

old for three more months over a measly $80. -=-

Right.
How much is ONE visit with a family therapist!? $80 more or less.

Let it go. He doesn't get more value for finishing it out. The $80 is gone.
Now start measuring the happiness factors. Will heaping unhappiness on
the $80 outlay make anything better? Will it even make your mom a happier
person?

<<I'm also wondering how I should approach this with Gavin. I don't

want to say that he is "quitting" but I'm not sure how to word it.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!>>

He dabbled. That's a good thing.
He learned. That's the goal.
He knows more than he did before, but if he thinks something else is a better
use of his/Gavin's personal time and energy, who knows better than he does?


Here's a Certificate of Empowerment that might make you feel better:

http://sandradodd.com/empowerment

Sandra

Sylvia Toyama

Hi Brandy,

I'd just let him quit T-ball. Making him finish out the season is a poor choice for several reasons: he's not likely to find he enjpys something he's forced to do; making him do something just because you paid for it sets him to feel like you feel your money is wasted on him; he's less likely to ask for something he really may enjoy (and be good at) for fear that if it's not his thing, you'll have 'wasted' more money, and you'll just say no anyway. All in all, forcing a kid to finish an activity that just doesn't fit him is a bad idea. Besides, the position he's now filling might just go to some other kid who really loves baseball.

If people ask why he's not playing T-ball anymore, it's enough to say it just wasn't his thing, so you've moved on. Anyone who pries beyond that, or offers unsolicited advice should be ignored -- or you can tell them what you REALLY think. <g>

Sylvia



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brandy

Thanks for the quick reply Sandra :) It's nice to know that there
are others who feel the same way about this. Oh, and thanks for the
Certificate of Empowerment. I had seen it before, but it means so
much more to read it when you are going through an issue like this.

I was just talking to my grandmother on the phone letting her know
that we would be resuming our Saturday visits. She must be an
unschooler at heart...I was telling her about Gavin deciding to not
continue with t-ball and my mom's response and she says "I don't
know where your mom gets those ideas from, I never made them
continue activities that they didn't like. Same with food Brandy,
why would you force a child to eat something that they can't stand
when there are so many other alternatives out there." :)

Thanks again!

Brandy

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> He dabbled. That's a good thing.
> He learned. That's the goal.
> He knows more than he did before, but if he thinks something else
is a better
> use of his/Gavin's personal time and energy, who knows better than
he does?
>
>
> Here's a Certificate of Empowerment that might make you feel
better:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/empowerment
>
> Sandra

Angela

Brandy,
It sounds like you've already worked it out but I'll share my 2 cents. I
don't have any problem with quitting an activity that I sign up for that
isn't what I thought it would be. It's the same for the kids. Some people
seem to think that you'll raise kids who can't stick with anything if you
let them quit things they don't enjoy. That just doesn't make sense to me.


My kids recently quit Horse 4-H. It was a relief to me when they finally
quit. They dreaded the meetings and they complained about them afterwards.
They love horses and they have a friend in 4-H so they expected to have a
good time but the classes were more about raising money and having a
business meeting than they were about horses and it was so structured that
they didn't get to know the other kids in the class on a personal level. It
wasn't what any of us expected at all.

My girls kept thinking it would get better and so they stuck with it for 7
months, but it didn't get better and I was relieved when they quit. We
checked out another 4-H too but the girls decided that 4-H just isn't for
them at this point in their lives. We were all disappointed that 4-H wasn't
what we expected, but sticking it out just because you signed up isn't going
to fix it. They girls still take horse back riding lessons and haven't quit
that because they love it. They've been taking riding lessons for 1.5 years
now. They have the ability to stick with things they like. If it comes
down to someday working a job they don't like, they'll have to decided then
if the money they make is important enough to make up for the dislike they
have for the job. If it's not, I hope they quit and find another job. Life
is too short to be miserable.

Angela
game-enthusiast@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kay Alina

I agree with you and your husband in not forcing a child into an activity. One thing I found to be of value is to always have a preview class. It is quite common here in California for the enrichment classes and it does seem fair. Sometimes the class or activity may be enjoyable but the teacher and student are not quite the right fit. Sometimes a child's interest's change. I try to put myself in their shoes. I give myself permission to change my mind at times and certain interest's have passed and later renewed. Perhaps you will be able to be credited the dollar amount for missed classes. Sometimes the same class held at a different hour is what works. We are currently back at a fitness gym for young ones and there was a time I felt it was just not the right class for Alex but now it seems to be the best fit.

I personally have no problem with telling the truth in regard to quitting something. It does not hold the negative impact it once did. Once upon a time in my career not quitting ending me up in a physical situation that was detrimental. Following our heart and our instincts is more important than worrying about what someone else might think because we quit something. As long as we keep trying new things we are bound to come up with certain activities that we are not suited for and find ourselves quitting them. That's ok. I believe that taking the risk and sampling something new is the more important thing to do.

Perhaps asking your son if there is another activity he would like to try instead. Something like 4H or Boy Scouts allows a variety of activities and may help him to decide if there is something of particular interest he would like to pursue.

Our family ended up stuck in a situation this past year in which we had committed to a year's contract and although not severely detrimental it was a lesson learned in only commiting to smaller chunks. One to two months at a time is where we find our comfort level. Best of luck to you and your family.

Kay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kay Alina

I saw this today in another post and thought of you and your son.

Your Best is Good Enough
A Sandy Thought by Sandy Spurgeon McDaniel

I was watering in front of my home. A young boy who was walking up the street, had baseball gear on and dejectedly held a bat in one hand.

"Baseball practice or game?" I asked.
"Game." He answered, "I struck outSSStwice!"
"Another Babe Ruth in the making, huh?" I said smiling.
He stopped. "Huh?"
"Babe Ruth holds a record for the most strike outs and he also held the
record for a long time for the most home-runs. That story is used by
motivational speakers to teach that trying hard -swinging your hardest in baseball-will cause losses and wins. If you try your best, regardless of the outcome, it is good enough."

The boy walked a few steps, cocked his head sideways, "Babe Ruth. " He swung his bat with gusto and nodded as he turned to walk on home.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We don't give points for trying, for doing one's best. Especially in sports, it is all about winning. I was a grade A athlete. At sixty- two I can't remember the details of one game I played, even when I was the hero.

What I have taken into my life is the determination to do my best and let that best be good enough. I play to win in a sport, and I'd rather play a close game, even lose, than be bored to death winning by miles. I learned to be a good sport when I lose. I learned the value of exercise. I learned to be a kinder person. I learned to enjoy sports.

What are we teaching our children by valuing winning over learning important life skills? What kind of pressure are we putting on children who should be playing for the fun of the game? And what will happen to a child's self-esteem who just isn't geared to be a winner in sportsS..or even in school?

If you are not teaching your children it is safe to learn from mistakes and it is good enough to do your best, the consequences may be a child with a broken spirit.

Sandy Spurgeon McDaniel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> I'm also wondering how I should approach this with Gavin. I don't
> want to say that he is "quitting" but I'm not sure how to word it.
> Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

How about "Gavin tried t-ball and decided it wasn't for
him"? "Tried" and "decided" have a much more postitive ring to them
than "quit," IMO.

So many people I know make their kids stick with unwanted activities
because they don't want to "raise a quitter." It's silly to me.
I think childhood is supposed to be a time for trying things on and
discarding them. I just wish that activities like t-ball had either
a free trial period or a flexible money back option if a child
decides it's not his thing.

Patti

Debra Kattler

I totally agree with what others have said so will not comment further
on what they've said. I did want to add however that I had always
assumed that money was lost when classes/activities were dropped. But
some places do have refund policies as was pointed out to me. Never
hurts to ask!

Debra



________________________________________________________________
$0 Bannerless Web Hosting, 10 POP and Web Email Accounts, & more
Get It Now At www.doteasy.com

joylyn

Here's another look on this. This last year, Lexie played soccer. The
teams all played 9 on the field at a time, but most had 10 on a team.
They should have had 11 or 12, to give everyone a chance to rest. If
any girl was absent for a game, everyone else had to play the entire
game. If more than one was absent, we played still, all the game with
one less than the other team. Some girls, like Lexie, were strongly
committed, and were at every practice and every game. Others missed for
whatever reason they wished. Their lack of commitment had a huge impact
on how well we did as a team. Another team started with 10, and due
to girls quitting, they ended up with six girls at the end of the
season. This was not good. They still played, lost almost all their
games, and yet they played.

Lexie's now involved in Peter Pan. Basically they have a rule, once
rehearsals begin, you can't quit. I understand this rule. A few kids
quit each time, and basically they don't get in the next play, nor do
any of the other youth theaters want them in those plays. It's
difficult to manage a play around kids who quit. I do think there is a
difference between a five year old playing tball and a 9 year old
playing soccer, but I do think that a child needs to learn that they
have a commitment to finish some activities, especially if others are
counting on them.

I'm not sure what the balance is. I know it's not with tball. Last
year Janene was going to be in Annie. She decided to not be in the
cast. Lexie was in the cast. All through the rehearsals and show,
Janene sometimes would say she was sorry she quit (before the 1st
rehearsal) and other times she'd say she was glad. When the Peter Pan
thing came up, we gave her the option, reminding her of the rule that
once rehearsals began, she couldn't quit. She made the decision to be a
part of the cast and she's done well, but occasionally she says she
wants to quit but knows she can't. I'd say more often she's glad she's
in the play.

Janene had the same mixed feelings with soccer, wanting to play but not
wanting. I don't make my kids eat things they don't wish to eat, and
don't make them finish other things they begin, but I do think some
activities require a commitment and that when others will be effected by
a choice to quit, that needs to be considered before quitting.

Joylyn

Diane wrote:

> It's certainly a timely question for me, since I just signed my
> 6-year-old up for t-ball, and it hasn't started yet. Thankfully, it
> wasn't $80, only $15, but our idea going into this is that he'll have an
> opportunity to *try* it. Sure we know he likes playing catch at the
> park, and he likes hitting the ball, and I think he really *wants* to be
> around a bunch of kids running around, but I have serious doubts whether
> he'll want to go at a specified time and be told where to stand and that
> it's someone else's turn to hit the ball. But honestly, there's no way
> to find out, and for *him* to find out, without trying it.
>
> How can a little kid who's never experienced something know enough to
> make a binding commitment? It's not a championship team that contracted
> for certain players, it's a group of little kids supposedly *playing*.
>
> :-) Diane
>
> Brandy wrote:
>
> >Hi everyone,
> >
> >I was wondering what you do when your kids have started an activity
> >and then decide that they don't like it and would rather not
> >continue.
> >
> >Gavin (almost 6) wanted to play t-ball, so we signed him up. It is
> >clear that he doesn't enjoy it, he stands on the field saying he's
> >tired during games, has no interest in going to practice and he told
> >me that he wanted to skip his game today. I asked him to think about
> >baseball and tell me how he honestly felt about it, not what he
> >thought we wanted to hear, but how he truly felt. He came back to me
> >a little while later and told me that he didn't care for it and he
> >didn't feel like playing anymore. DH and I are fine with this
> >decision. My mom thinks that we should make him stick it out because
> >we paid for it, but I don't see the point in torturing a six year
> >old for three more months over a measly $80. Not that we have money
> >to throw around, but his happiness is more of a concern for me.
> >
> >I think that this is more of a lesson learned for dh and myself,
> >that in the future if one of the kids asks to sign up for something
> >because they like the idea of it, we should take them out for a
> >couple of weeks and try it out on our own, kicking the soccer ball
> >around on the field or practicing baseball to see if they really
> >enjoy the activity, or if it's just the idea of it that is
> >appealing.
> >
> >I'm also wondering how I should approach this with Gavin. I don't
> >want to say that he is "quitting" but I'm not sure how to word it.
> >Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Brandy...mainly a lurker who likes to soak up lots of info from this
> >list :)
> >
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cdd2vij/M=291630.4786521.5933964.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705542111:HM/EXP=1081127332/A=2072414/R=0/SIG=11tc61npd/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60178418&partid=4786521>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

Exactly! And that is why it makes I get upset when a child asks for a pet
and the parents get it with the agreement that the child will be the sole
caretaker for the pet. The child often has no idea what they are getting
themselves into, not having had the experience of taking care of a pet
before. I think when a parent gets a pet for a child or for their family,
they need to take that into consideration and plan on taking over for the
child if caring for the pet is more than the child bargained for.

Angela
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...

Diane wrote:
How can a little kid who's never experienced something know enough to
make a binding commitment?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

I understand what you are saying Joylyn. With regards to the soccer team, I
am wondering if they cut other kids from the team who wanted to be on it or
if no other kids tried out? If the case is that no other kids tried out,
the team at least benefited from having them on the team while they were
there.

I think being in play is a little different. I wouldn't want my child to
sign up to be in a play without having some idea of how large a commitment
is involved. Perhaps that means getting a bunch of homeschoolers together
first to put on skits or a play where the child has the opportunity to try
it without having so much pressure put on them.



Angela
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...

Joylyn wrote: Here's another look on this.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diane

It's certainly a timely question for me, since I just signed my
6-year-old up for t-ball, and it hasn't started yet. Thankfully, it
wasn't $80, only $15, but our idea going into this is that he'll have an
opportunity to *try* it. Sure we know he likes playing catch at the
park, and he likes hitting the ball, and I think he really *wants* to be
around a bunch of kids running around, but I have serious doubts whether
he'll want to go at a specified time and be told where to stand and that
it's someone else's turn to hit the ball. But honestly, there's no way
to find out, and for *him* to find out, without trying it.

How can a little kid who's never experienced something know enough to
make a binding commitment? It's not a championship team that contracted
for certain players, it's a group of little kids supposedly *playing*.

:-) Diane

Brandy wrote:

>Hi everyone,
>
>I was wondering what you do when your kids have started an activity
>and then decide that they don't like it and would rather not
>continue.
>
>Gavin (almost 6) wanted to play t-ball, so we signed him up. It is
>clear that he doesn't enjoy it, he stands on the field saying he's
>tired during games, has no interest in going to practice and he told
>me that he wanted to skip his game today. I asked him to think about
>baseball and tell me how he honestly felt about it, not what he
>thought we wanted to hear, but how he truly felt. He came back to me
>a little while later and told me that he didn't care for it and he
>didn't feel like playing anymore. DH and I are fine with this
>decision. My mom thinks that we should make him stick it out because
>we paid for it, but I don't see the point in torturing a six year
>old for three more months over a measly $80. Not that we have money
>to throw around, but his happiness is more of a concern for me.
>
>I think that this is more of a lesson learned for dh and myself,
>that in the future if one of the kids asks to sign up for something
>because they like the idea of it, we should take them out for a
>couple of weeks and try it out on our own, kicking the soccer ball
>around on the field or practicing baseball to see if they really
>enjoy the activity, or if it's just the idea of it that is
>appealing.
>
>I'm also wondering how I should approach this with Gavin. I don't
>want to say that he is "quitting" but I'm not sure how to word it.
>Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Brandy...mainly a lurker who likes to soak up lots of info from this
>list :)
>

Tia Leschke

>
>So many people I know make their kids stick with unwanted activities
>because they don't want to "raise a quitter."

How about thinking of it as "raising a try-er"?
Tia

Stephanie Elms

Here is our quitting story...last year (when Jason was 6) we were
involved in a few activities...both boys took gymnastics, Jason did a hs
swim/gym class twice a week and played soccer. About half way through
the gym/swim, Jason started balking at going. He seemed to enjoy it once
he got there, but it was a pain getting him out the door. In talking
with him he did not like the drive (it was about 35 mins away...a great
program...1 hr in the pool, 1 hr in the gym with other hsers). I
realized that I was doing this for him, so if it was going to be a fight
to get him there it was not worth it. So we stopped going before the end
of the session. Then at the end of gymnastics and soccer he decided that
he did not want to do those either. Basically he dropped out of
*everything*. DH wanted to make him be involved in something, but we
decided to let Jason make the call. A couple of months later, I saw a
listing for a homeschool "goop and potions" class that I thought that
Jason would enjoy (he loves making potions) so I asked him. He said that
it sounded like fun so we signed up. He loved it...never had a problem
getting him out the door. We also met another hsing family that we all
mesh great with (our kids get along great and the mom and I have become
great friends). This mom and I ended up helping to organize a hsers gym
class that the boys really enjoy and where we met another great hs
family that we have started doing a lot with. And then a couple of
months later I found out about a hs fencing class (5 mins from my house)
and since Jason really enjoyed the Redwall books, I asked him if he
wanted to try it...he did and loves it too. Oh and now after taking a
break Jason decided that he wanted to do soccer again and is loving it
too.

So my lesson has been to not be afraid of quitting something that just
is not working because it may free you up for something even better to
come along. :o) I do think that it also depends on whether or not other
people are depending on you, but at 6 or 7 I definitely think that they
usually have more options then many parents give kids. I also think that
there is something to be said about learning to cut your losses rather
then sticking to something that is not working.

Stephanie E.

Brandy

Thank you for all of the replies and the stories of when you
encountered similar situations.

Gavin lets us know when he truly enjoys something, as is the case
with his karate class. He spends all week looking forward to
Thursday and Friday and when we missed one of the classes, he was
genuinely upset.

I think that part of the problem with t-ball was that we have all
been feeling overscheduled lately. He had wanted to take a class at
the nature center on Monday afternoons. He had t-ball on Wed. and
Sat. and karate on Thurs. and Fri. We went from having no scheduled
activities except for homeschool group park days, to having to be
somewhere four days in a row. I was hesitant to jump into all of
this at once, but he really insisted that he wanted to do both
karate and t-ball. Looking back it really was too much at once for
him.

He has always been very social and asks to go out everyday. A few
weeks ago, he asked to stay home from the park day and then chose to
skip a friend's birthday party to stay home with dh. We spent the
next week just chilling out at home, blowing off everything except
karate, and he seemed much better after that. We didn't finish out
the four week course at the nature center either. I was asking him
if he wanted to sign up for the next session and he couldn't decide.
I asked him how he felt about the class and what he liked and
disliked. He said he likes going there to explore on his own and ask
Lorri (the naturalist) questions alone. He didn't like following
with the group of other kids and stopping all the time to do the
activities and talk. It was one of those a-ha moments when I
realized that we had really made the right decision, in choosing to
homeschool our kids. I was so happy that he felt comfortable telling
me that he didn't want to continue with that class :)

Anyways, thanks again!

Brandy

joylyn

Angela wrote:

> I understand what you are saying Joylyn. With regards to the soccer
> team, I
> am wondering if they cut other kids from the team who wanted to be on
> it or
> if no other kids tried out?

No, everyone who wants to play plays with ayso. They also tried to
recruit more playes. As it was, they only had 6 teams, so it wasn't as
though they had too many teams.

> If the case is that no other kids tried out,
> the team at least benefited from having them on the team while they were
> there.

Yes, but no other team lost four players, so it wasn't a good thing.
What a horrible situation to put in if you are 9 years old...

>
>
> I think being in play is a little different. I wouldn't want my child to
> sign up to be in a play without having some idea of how large a commitment
> is involved. Perhaps that means getting a bunch of homeschoolers together
> first to put on skits or a play where the child has the opportunity
> to try
> it without having so much pressure put on them.

I agree. I tried to let the girls know what committment they were
signing up for, and hopefully did a good job. Lexie doesn't want to
quit, ever.

I guess I was just trying to make the point that sometimes quitting has
reprecussions on others on the team. I doubt it does at 5 year old
tball, but it may later.

Joylyn

>
>
>
>
> Angela
> <mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...
>
> Joylyn wrote: Here's another look on this.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joylyn

I

Stephanie Elms wrote:

> Here is our quitting story...last year (when Jason was 6) we were
> involved in a few activities...both boys took gymnastics, Jason did a hs
> swim/gym class twice a week and played soccer. About half way through
> the gym/swim, Jason started balking at going. He seemed to enjoy it once
> he got there, but it was a pain getting him out the door. In talking
> with him he did not like the drive (it was about 35 mins away...a great
> program...1 hr in the pool, 1 hr in the gym with other hsers). I
> realized that I was doing this for him, so if it was going to be a fight
> to get him there it was not worth it. So we stopped going before the end
> of the session. Then at the end of gymnastics and soccer he decided that
> he did not want to do those either.

at the end? Ie, at the end of the season, after the games? That would
be the time to drop out, I think. Janene says she doesn't want to play
soccer next year. Obviously, she won't have to do so. And at five
years of age, where it is not competetive, I would have allowed her to
drop out mid year. But when she's nine, and soccer is competetitve, and
her team is counting on her, I think she owuld have to wait to the end
of the season.

Joylyn

> Basically he dropped out of
> *everything*. DH wanted to make him be involved in something, but we
> decided to let Jason make the call. A couple of months later, I saw a
> listing for a homeschool "goop and potions" class that I thought that
> Jason would enjoy (he loves making potions) so I asked him. He said that
> it sounded like fun so we signed up. He loved it...never had a problem
> getting him out the door. We also met another hsing family that we all
> mesh great with (our kids get along great and the mom and I have become
> great friends). This mom and I ended up helping to organize a hsers gym
> class that the boys really enjoy and where we met another great hs
> family that we have started doing a lot with. And then a couple of
> months later I found out about a hs fencing class (5 mins from my house)
> and since Jason really enjoyed the Redwall books, I asked him if he
> wanted to try it...he did and loves it too. Oh and now after taking a
> break Jason decided that he wanted to do soccer again and is loving it
> too.
>
> So my lesson has been to not be afraid of quitting something that just
> is not working because it may free you up for something even better to
> come along. :o) I do think that it also depends on whether or not other
> people are depending on you, but at 6 or 7 I definitely think that they
> usually have more options then many parents give kids. I also think that
> there is something to be said about learning to cut your losses rather
> then sticking to something that is not working.
>
> Stephanie E.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joylyn

wow, must have sent that one off by mistake.

Joylyn

joylyn wrote:

> I
>
> Stephanie Elms wrote:
>
> > Here is our quitting story...last year (when Jason was 6) we were
> > involved in a few activities...both boys took gymnastics, Jason did a hs
> > swim/gym class twice a week and played soccer. About half way through
> > the gym/swim, Jason started balking at going. He seemed to enjoy it once
> > he got there, but it was a pain getting him out the door. In talking
> > with him he did not like the drive (it was about 35 mins away...a great
> > program...1 hr in the pool, 1 hr in the gym with other hsers). I
> > realized that I was doing this for him, so if it was going to be a fight
> > to get him there it was not worth it. So we stopped going before the end
> > of the session. Then at the end of gymnastics and soccer he decided that
> > he did not want to do those either.
>
> at the end? Ie, at the end of the season, after the games? That would
> be the time to drop out, I think. Janene says she doesn't want to play
> soccer next year. Obviously, she won't have to do so. And at five
> years of age, where it is not competetive, I would have allowed her to
> drop out mid year. But when she's nine, and soccer is competetitve, and
> her team is counting on her, I think she owuld have to wait to the end
> of the season.
>
> Joylyn
>
> > Basically he dropped out of
> > *everything*. DH wanted to make him be involved in something, but we
> > decided to let Jason make the call. A couple of months later, I saw a
> > listing for a homeschool "goop and potions" class that I thought that
> > Jason would enjoy (he loves making potions) so I asked him. He said that
> > it sounded like fun so we signed up. He loved it...never had a problem
> > getting him out the door. We also met another hsing family that we all
> > mesh great with (our kids get along great and the mom and I have become
> > great friends). This mom and I ended up helping to organize a hsers gym
> > class that the boys really enjoy and where we met another great hs
> > family that we have started doing a lot with. And then a couple of
> > months later I found out about a hs fencing class (5 mins from my house)
> > and since Jason really enjoyed the Redwall books, I asked him if he
> > wanted to try it...he did and loves it too. Oh and now after taking a
> > break Jason decided that he wanted to do soccer again and is loving it
> > too.
> >
> > So my lesson has been to not be afraid of quitting something that just
> > is not working because it may free you up for something even better to
> > come along. :o) I do think that it also depends on whether or not other
> > people are depending on you, but at 6 or 7 I definitely think that they
> > usually have more options then many parents give kids. I also think that
> > there is something to be said about learning to cut your losses rather
> > then sticking to something that is not working.
> >
> > Stephanie E.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

It sounds frustrating to not have enough players on your team. I guess I
don't understand how it works though. Do they take all the players that
sign up and break them up into different teams depending on how many kids
they get? I was assuming that different teams came from different towns and
you had whatever number of kids in your town wanted to play. You would
think that they would have put a few extra players on each team and had less
teams if that were the case. There must be a certain percentage of kids who
quit. That said, I really have no experience with team sports. I don't
think they had them when I was a child and my kids haven't expressed any
interest. The only thing I did for sports were in high school for track and
cross country running and it was a given in my family that once you signed
up you didn't quit, no matter how miserable you were.


Angela
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...

Joylyn wrote:
Yes, but no other team lost four players, so it wasn't a good thing.
What a horrible situation to put in if you are 9 years old...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Kattler

For me the balance is in trusting my kids. Sure it helps if they
understand the level of the commitment. Sure it is good information for
them to know what others are expecting. They might want to know that it
could effect future opportunities of that kind. But I would also make
it clear that similar opportunities might not be. Still, a mistake can
be made. A mind can change. Is it more important to meet everyone
else's needs or one's own?

While thinking about this topic I remembered an incident from my adult
life. When I was pregnant for the first time, I was working full time.
The first few months were rough with feeling and getting sick many times
during the day (and my office wasn't very close to a bathroom). I also
had to drive close to an hour to work. I would get raging headaches a
couple of times a week. I had an offsite workshop to lead one day. I
arranged to have a backup knowing that I might not feel good that day.
Sure enough, I woke with a headache. I could barely lift my head off
the pillow to call my backup. She was obviously put out. I guess she
wasn't expecting to have to actually back me up :-) It was such a hard
phone call to make and I lay there feeling bad about it for quite
awhile. In any case, the awful pressure of worrying about everyone else
when I felt like sh.... was not what I needed at that moment. But it
is something I struggle with all of the time. I give this as an extreme
example because my reason was socially acceptable. Of course, if you're
sick.... I can hear people saying. But what difference does it make
what your reason is? And even though my reason was "acceptable", my
point is that I still had the hardest time cancelling at the last minute.

I don't want to pass on that meme to my kids. Give them the information
about what others expect and want (and potential, not definite,
ramifications of quitting). But first and foremost I want them to trust
themselves to do what is right for them.

Debra

joylyn wrote:

> Here's another look on this. This last year, Lexie played soccer. The
> teams all played 9 on the field at a time, but most had 10 on a team.
> They should have had 11 or 12, to give everyone a chance to rest. If
> any girl was absent for a game, everyone else had to play the entire
> game. If more than one was absent, we played still, all the game with
> one less than the other team. Some girls, like Lexie, were strongly
> committed, and were at every practice and every game. Others missed for
> whatever reason they wished. Their lack of commitment had a huge impact
> on how well we did as a team. Another team started with 10, and due
> to girls quitting, they ended up with six girls at the end of the
> season. This was not good. They still played, lost almost all their
> games, and yet they played.
>
> Lexie's now involved in Peter Pan. Basically they have a rule, once
> rehearsals begin, you can't quit. I understand this rule. A few kids
> quit each time, and basically they don't get in the next play, nor do
> any of the other youth theaters want them in those plays. It's
> difficult to manage a play around kids who quit. I do think there is a
> difference between a five year old playing tball and a 9 year old
> playing soccer, but I do think that a child needs to learn that they
> have a commitment to finish some activities, especially if others are
> counting on them.
>
> I'm not sure what the balance is. I know it's not with tball. Last
> year Janene was going to be in Annie. She decided to not be in the
> cast. Lexie was in the cast. All through the rehearsals and show,
> Janene sometimes would say she was sorry she quit (before the 1st
> rehearsal) and other times she'd say she was glad. When the Peter Pan
> thing came up, we gave her the option, reminding her of the rule that
> once rehearsals began, she couldn't quit. She made the decision to be a
> part of the cast and she's done well, but occasionally she says she
> wants to quit but knows she can't. I'd say more often she's glad she's
> in the play.
>
> Janene had the same mixed feelings with soccer, wanting to play but not
> wanting. I don't make my kids eat things they don't wish to eat, and
> don't make them finish other things they begin, but I do think some
> activities require a commitment and that when others will be effected by
> a choice to quit, that needs to be considered before quitting.
>
> Joylyn





________________________________________________________________
$0 Bannerless Web Hosting, 10 POP and Web Email Accounts, & more
Get It Now At www.doteasy.com

Nanci Kuykendall

>I'd just let him quit T-ball. ..... All in all,
>forcing a kid to finish an activity that just doesn't
>fit him is a bad idea.
>Sylvia

I always think this same thing when people talk about
whether they should pull their kids from school, and
how they want to wait until the end of the quarter or
the end of the school year. I always have to ask
them, for Pete's sake, WHY? Why not today, this hour,
right now. Get in the car and go get them and don't
look back! They usually say something inane like that
they "don't want to pull them out in the middle" or
that the child will learn some bad thing about
quitting things or something. No real reasons.

I always say that their child will learn a whole hell
of a lot more about self empowerment to do what is
right for them, not following the herd, not relying on
others to tell them what they need, knowing their
parents are supportive of their decisions, knowing
they can escape from bad situations and many other
important things by leaving sooner, than any (highly
questionable) "benefits" of making them "stick it out"
until some predetermined time.

As Joylyn mentioned, in some cases folks are counting
on your commitment, but in other cases they are not.
No one is hurt by your child leaving school just as
soon as they can, least of all your child. Now if
only there was some painless way to insert that
information into parents who are so brainwashed by the
system.

Nanci K.

[email protected]

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 17:30:58 -0800 joylyn <joylyn@...> writes:
> If any girl was absent for a game, everyone else had to play the
entire
> game. If more than one was absent, we played still, all the game
> with one less than the other team.

Rain was on a team like that. It was hard. Seems to me that the soccer
league should have made fewer teams and ensured that each team had a few
alternates, rather than assuming that every little girl would be able to
be at every game.

I do think that the issues change as children get older, and get more
serious about their activities. If Rain decided to not perform in
Cinderella yesterday, she would have disappointed 200 little kids,
including 7 (!) birthday parties, and cost the theatre company over
$2000.... and they never would have cast her again, IMO.

OTOH, two of the leads for a local community theatre production of Gypsy
(Herbie and Rose) dropped out of the show last weekend, a couple weeks
into rehearsals. They're adults, and community theatre veterans. As I
understand it, the woman had realized that she had some voice problems
and didn't want to strain it further, and her husband dropped out because
she did. So everyone gets to take care of him or herself, and make
choices. I don't know if this will have any impact on future casting, but
it's their decision to make.

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/4/2004 5:05:57 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
joylyn@... writes:
But when she's nine, and soccer is competetitve, and
her team is counting on her, I think she owuld have to wait to the end
of the season.
=============

"Would have to" or what?

If she's really unhappy, you can't make her play soccer, can you?
You could be persuasive and try to convince her, but "would have to wait"
sounds pretty harsh.

The results of kids being forced to take music lessons and forced to go to
school are all around us. Not so good.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joylyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/4/2004 5:05:57 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
> But when she's nine, and soccer is competetitve, and
> her team is counting on her, I think she owuld have to wait to the end
> of the season.
> =============
>
> "Would have to" or what?

well, if you want to break it down, if Lexie said to me "I want to quit
soccer" and it was mid season and I knew her team would be hurting
without her, I think we would have a lot of conversations about all of
it, her reasons to quit, my reasons on why committment is important,
what it would mean to the other girls, etc. etc. We'd look at all the
angles, and then she'd need to make a decision. Ultimately it would be
her decision.

>
>
> If she's really unhappy, you can't make her play soccer, can you?

Well, some parents do. I wouldn't. but then, we usually have a
conversation BEFORE the season so we can hash out things like committment.

>
> You could be persuasive and try to convince her, but "would have to wait"
> sounds pretty harsh.
>
> The results of kids being forced to take music lessons and forced to
> go to
> school are all around us. Not so good.

Music lessons are different. They go on and on. There is no beginning
of the season or the end. There are no 8-10 other kids who are relying
upon each other to form a team. Lexie did take piano for a while.
When she asked to quit, she quit. The only person effected by her
decision was the piano teacher, and herself. When others are effected,
then that needs to be taken into consideration.

An example. I have a 10th grader who wants to homeschool. He's on the
baseball team and is one of the starting players. He wants to quit even
though the team could go to championships, etc. If it was just a school
issue, no big deal. But there is a team involved who have hopes of
doing well. I think my child would need to consider all those that will
be effected by his decision to quit school, and not just think about
himself. We do not live in a vaccuum. We live with other people and
those people need to be considered if they will be changed by our decisions.

Joylyn

>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12ctr46a8/M=291630.4786521.5933964.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705542111:HM/EXP=1081200031/A=2072414/R=0/SIG=11tc61npd/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60178418&partid=4786521>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/4/2004 3:34:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
joylyn@... writes:
Music lessons are different. They go on and on. There is no beginning
of the season or the end. There are no 8-10 other kids who are relying
upon each other to form a team.
=========

With choirs and bands there are seasons and groups.

I understood all your explanations. I was questioning the phrase you used:

-=-"would have to wait" sounds pretty harsh=-

-=-> If she's really unhappy, you can't make her play soccer, can you?

Well, some parents do. -=-

HOW?
I don't want an explanation, because I know how mainstream parents force kids
to do things. By the threat of withholding privileges or allowance. By
threatening them with spankings or loss of stereos or selling their cars or other
torturous, horrible things.

Literally, I am asking whether an unschooling parent, whether you or someone
who has professed to put their children's needs first, could literally MAKE a
child play soccer.

Nobody can make a child play soccer. If the child collapses to the ground
and refuses to stand, then what? If threats don't work, what?

-=-"would have to-=-

Two friends of mine showed school and their parents they did not have to do
anything they didn't want to. They killed themselves.

Their faces and voices and laughter and their funerals are always in the back
of my mind when any parent tells me a child has to do something.

They don't.
And the parents can't make them.

And the inconvenience to the band when the only bass clarinetest or the
second chair trumpet puts a bullet in his or her head is NOTHING compared to the
pain of the parents from then on.

But say I get off of my morbid reminiscence and just say this: Is the
inconvenience to a team or a play worth a lifetime of sorrow and powerlessness
delivered into the lap of a child who really does not want to play T-Ball or soccer
or sing in the chorus of ten back-up singers but the parent says "You HAVE
to, for the sake of others who are not my children, who are not my
responsibility"? The temporary, seasonal inconvenience of strangers is worse than your
real, continuing sadness?

So...
The original question was if a child is unhappy in an activity you've already
paid for, would you let him quit?

My answer is: Only if you really care about his spirit and his mental
health. Only if you really love him.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joylyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/4/2004 3:34:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
> Music lessons are different. They go on and on. There is no beginning
> of the season or the end. There are no 8-10 other kids who are relying
> upon each other to form a team.
> =========
>
> With choirs and bands there are seasons and groups.
>
> I understood all your explanations. I was questioning the phrase you
> used:
>
> -=-"would have to wait" sounds pretty harsh=-
>
> -=-> If she's really unhappy, you can't make her play soccer, can you?
>
> Well, some parents do. -=-

OK, but you missed what I said above that... here, I'll quote myself...
" well, if you want to break it down, if Lexie said to me "I want to
quit soccer" and it was mid season and I knew her team would be hurting
without her, I think we would have a lot of conversations about all of
it, her reasons to quit, my reasons on why committment is important,
what it would mean to the other girls, etc. etc. We'd look at all the
angles, and then she'd need to make a decision. Ultimately it would be
her decision."

So, I said, yes, it would be Lexie's decision, she could quit if she had
looked at everything and then still made the decision to quit.

> HOW?
> I don't want an explanation, because I know how mainstream parents
> force kids
> to do things. By the threat of withholding privileges or allowance. By
> threatening them with spankings or loss of stereos or selling their
> cars or other
> torturous, horrible things.
>
> Literally, I am asking whether an unschooling parent, whether you or
> someone
> who has professed to put their children's needs first, could literally
> MAKE a
> child play soccer.

I answered that question already. See above. See my last post.

>
> Nobody can make a child play soccer. If the child collapses to the
> ground
> and refuses to stand, then what? If threats don't work, what?

Sandra, you know me better than that. Yes, mainstreamed parents do
this. But we aren't talking about mainstreamed parents. Brandy asked
what our opinion was. And because I knew everyone would say "oh yes,
let them quit" I wanted to give the opposite side of it. I also said
clearly in another post that there was a big difference between a 5 year
old and tball and a older child with competetive sports or a play.

>
> -=-"would have to-=-
>
> Two friends of mine showed school and their parents they did not have
> to do
> anything they didn't want to. They killed themselves.

That's powerful and sad. Of course parents don't have control over
their children. Most of us here know this.

>
> Their faces and voices and laughter and their funerals are always in
> the back
> of my mind when any parent tells me a child has to do something.
>
> They don't.
> And the parents can't make them.
>
> And the inconvenience to the band when the only bass clarinetest or the
> second chair trumpet puts a bullet in his or her head is NOTHING
> compared to the
> pain of the parents from then on.
>
> But say I get off of my morbid reminiscence and just say this: Is the
> inconvenience to a team or a play worth a lifetime of sorrow and
> powerlessness
> delivered into the lap of a child who really does not want to play
> T-Ball or soccer
> or sing in the chorus of ten back-up singers

Those are not my examples. They are your examples. Tball is usually
noncompetitive, with lots of kids. A chorus of 10 back up singers would
be the same. What's one more or less? My examples was a competetive
soccer team where the other kids on the team would be effected by one
girl quitting. I think that when the kids get older the answer of
"sure, let'm quit, no big deal" because a bit more complicated and I
think the parent has a responsibility to help the child/young person
know of these complications so that the child can make an informed
decision--to quit or not.

It's like you believe there are two extreems and nothing in the middle.
I'm seeing mostly the middle. If my child was so very unhappy with
soccer or a play, I wouldn't give a damn about the other kids or
parents, we would do what it took to help and if that meant quitting and
leaving the others in a lurch, well, so be it.

> but the parent says "You HAVE
> to, for the sake of others who are not my children, who are not my
> responsibility"? The temporary, seasonal inconvenience of strangers
> is worse than your
> real, continuing sadness?

What a ridiculous question, of course not. But I'm not talking about
continuing sadness. If a child commits suicide there are far deeper
issues then playing on a team or not. I think what Brandy was talking
about was a child, who is five, who sorta likes tball, sometimes, but
doesn't really want to continue for whatever reason, and should the
parent insist on finishing the season, especially because there was
money paid. What I was talking about is a nine year old who just ups
and quits soccer or a play for no real reason except it's too hard or
whatever.

>
> So...
> The original question was if a child is unhappy in an activity you've
> already
> paid for, would you let him quit?

It depends upon the activity, the level of unhappiness, the situation as
a whole, when during the activity they wish to quit, etc. etc. etc. For
the most part, the answer is, what I said above, that it would be
ultimately the child's decision, and if they wanted to quit, I'd stand
by that decision. But it would not happen without discussion.

>
>
> My answer is: Only if you really care about his spirit and his mental
> health. Only if you really love him.

I don't think anything in life is this simple. I don't think this is an
either or situation.

Joylyn

>
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cnajpvo/M=290828.4794622.5939935.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705542111:HM/EXP=1081203585/A=1950449/R=0/SIG=1242fbsp7/*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryutaitakenattogyo?YH=4794622&yhad=1950449>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AM Brown

Not to be difficult, but I guess I don't buy the competitive sports
argument. I want my kids to follow what they are feeling. Staying in a
situation they don't like to help someone else may or may not work. We
can't plan for every eventuality. And in your example say the star soccer
player leaves and the team has to regroup and then discovers that Joe
Benchrider really has talent that no one notice with the 'star' there and
now the team works harder and still makes it happen. It is the
philosophy that there is no good or bad it just is. It seems 'bad' that
the star would leave but in the end it may not be. I guess I just believe
if we follow our passions and trust our feelings and intuition that gives
us the best chance - taking reasonability for other people's
happiness/success seems like a slipper slope.

I want to say, I could tell from your post and your previous messages that
it is clear that you would listen to your child, so this isn't an attack on
you, just adding that we don't know what will happen. I'm not sure I
would want to plant the seed that if you leave you have ruined it but it
sounds like you would just provide information and I'm sure that would be
helpful to any child forced to make a tough decision like that.

Anna

J. Stauffer

<<<<<<<<< But say I get off of my morbid reminiscence and just say this: Is
the
> inconvenience to a team or a play worth a lifetime of sorrow and
powerlessness
> delivered into the lap of a child who really does not want to play T-Ball
or soccer
> or sing in the chorus of ten back-up singers but the parent says "You HAVE
> to, for the sake of others who are not my children, who are not my
> responsibility"? The temporary, seasonal inconvenience of strangers is
worse than your
> real, continuing sadness?>>>>>>>>>

There may be situations where this is an accurate portrayal of things. But
I think it is rather melodramatic for most instances.

I think we do owe some consideration to other children, particularly when
they are sadly effected by the actions of our children. I do not think my
kids are "more important" than someone else's or that their sadness is
somehow more poignant. However, I also don't think that the consideration
of others is more important than my child. A balance is important.

But like most things, this isn't an either-or scenario. A parent might talk
to the coach about little Billy not enjoying the season and see if his
quitting would adversely effect the team (not enough players, etc.). A
parent might talk with little Billy about exactly what the issue is and see
if it can be resolved.

In most team situations, one kid, who doesn't want to be there anyway,
quitting makes little difference to the team. Unless there aren't enough
players.

I taught karate and worked with 4-h groups for years. As the "adult in
charge" I would personally prefer that any child that doesn't want to be
there, go home. It is a real drain on the energy of others.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] quitting activities


> In a message dated 4/4/2004 3:34:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
> Music lessons are different. They go on and on. There is no beginning
> of the season or the end. There are no 8-10 other kids who are relying
> upon each other to form a team.
> =========
>
> With choirs and bands there are seasons and groups.
>
> I understood all your explanations. I was questioning the phrase you
used:
>
> -=-"would have to wait" sounds pretty harsh=-
>
> -=-> If she's really unhappy, you can't make her play soccer, can you?
>
> Well, some parents do. -=-
>
> HOW?
> I don't want an explanation, because I know how mainstream parents force
kids
> to do things. By the threat of withholding privileges or allowance. By
> threatening them with spankings or loss of stereos or selling their cars
or other
> torturous, horrible things.
>
> Literally, I am asking whether an unschooling parent, whether you or
someone
> who has professed to put their children's needs first, could literally
MAKE a
> child play soccer.
>
> Nobody can make a child play soccer. If the child collapses to the ground
> and refuses to stand, then what? If threats don't work, what?
>
> -=-"would have to-=-
>
> Two friends of mine showed school and their parents they did not have to
do
> anything they didn't want to. They killed themselves.
>
> Their faces and voices and laughter and their funerals are always in the
back
> of my mind when any parent tells me a child has to do something.
>
> They don't.
> And the parents can't make them.
>
> And the inconvenience to the band when the only bass clarinetest or the
> second chair trumpet puts a bullet in his or her head is NOTHING compared
to the
> pain of the parents from then on.
>
> But say I get off of my morbid reminiscence and just say this: Is the
> inconvenience to a team or a play worth a lifetime of sorrow and
powerlessness
> delivered into the lap of a child who really does not want to play T-Ball
or soccer
> or sing in the chorus of ten back-up singers but the parent says "You HAVE
> to, for the sake of others who are not my children, who are not my
> responsibility"? The temporary, seasonal inconvenience of strangers is
worse than your
> real, continuing sadness?
>
> So...
> The original question was if a child is unhappy in an activity you've
already
> paid for, would you let him quit?
>
> My answer is: Only if you really care about his spirit and his mental
> health. Only if you really love him.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Kay Alina

I am sorry and saddened by the loss of your friends Sandra. A friend of mine chose suicide at the age of 36. I wish he would have chosen to quit everything and everyone else instead.
Kay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]