Alice

Hi folks,

I don't post much to this list (or any other for that matter). I'm usually so behind in emails that
whatever I want to say, someone has already said (and usually said it in a more concise way). But
I've heard that before, so it sort of helps to know that I'm not the only one. But I do feel sort
of weird coming here for advice when only a couple of you actually even know me.

Anyway, this is a list that has the most wisest folks I've ever run across, so I can't _not_ ask for
advice when I need it.

I've spoken in the past about friends of ours - a family who used to homeschool, the mom died in
sept 2002, now the kids go to school. (and, as an aside, have developed an extreme dislike toward
homeschoolers) A year ago, the dad was saying how well the kids were doing handling their grief,
even to say that it didn't seem like they were even grieving at all. My dh and I both just sort of
thought, "ok, but watch out". We didn't want to say anything. We didn't really know them very well
and they really did seem like very smart and well adjusted kids. So here it is 16 months later and
he brings home another woman. Both the kids completely lose it. They ripped into him, screaming,
yelling, crying, saying extremely vicious things "you killed our mother just so you could see other
woman!" !!! Anyway, I've no idea how I can help. His kids don't even like mine anymore. Does anyone
have any suggestions on how to help? He's thinking about counseling. (He knows he has to do
something) Are there any good books that he can read to help his kids through this. Maybe a
recommended email list? They are 12yog(going on 17) and 10yob. He feels so bad and is at a total
loss for what to do. It sounded like it was a really bad, long, drawn out explosion of anger and
hatred. Apparently it all was quite a surprise, too. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks everyone
Alice

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/4/04 8:55:29 AM, alijay@... writes:

<< now the kids go to school. (and, as an aside, have developed an extreme
dislike toward
homeschoolers) >>

I would guess that would be frustration at not being able to homeschool
anymore or to be with their mom anymore while other kids are getting to be with
theirs, coated with all the justifications their other relatives have made to
help them accept going to school.

And a sad side-effect will be that the relatives may have unwittingly
suggested that their mom was wrong to be homeschooling them, so it could be harder
for them to process their feelings if friends and neighbors are by their
school-praise saying, "Your mom was a misguided person wasting your life, but it will
be better now that you're in school."

I've seen a couple of divorce situations where the kids ended up going to
school, and if they rejected homeschooling they also ended up blaming the
homeschooling parent for all school-related woes.

-=-They ripped into him, screaming,
yelling, crying, saying extremely vicious things "you killed our mother just
so you could see other
woman!" !!! -=-

That happens. When I was younger, my sympathies would have lain with the
dad, but now that I'm older, I feel for the kids.

-=-Does anyone
have any suggestions on how to help? He's thinking about counseling. -=-

If you're in a fair-sized city or university town, maybe you yourself could
make a couple of calls and see if there are meetings of grief counselling
organizations they could attend. And while you're calling, you could ask if there
is a good gried counsellor for kids. Then it would be a gift for all of them
if you would write all that up with the phone numbers, names and addresses and
give it to the dad so he doesn't have to do the same footwork.

Sandra

Alice

> If you're in a fair-sized city or university town, maybe you yourself could
> make a couple of calls and see if there are meetings of grief counselling
> organizations they could attend. And while you're calling, you could ask if there
> is a good gried counsellor for kids. Then it would be a gift for all of them
> if you would write all that up with the phone numbers, names and addresses and
> give it to the dad so he doesn't have to do the same footwork.

Excellent idea. Though we live in the middle coastal region of NC and the nearest largest town would
be almost an hour away with a pop of a bit over 20,000. But I do recall seeing meetings of such
types advertised in the paper. The next problem being finding one that won't be preachy. "look to
god to heal your sorrows - god will show the way" He's atheist. :-/ (and I'm pretty sure the kids
would be of an agnostic bent) But I'm definitely going to look into it.

thanks
Alice

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/4/2004 7:38:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alijay@... writes:
Excellent idea. Though we live in the middle coastal region of NC and the
nearest largest town would
be almost an hour away with a pop of a bit over 20,000.
>>>>>>

I'm trying to think exactly where that is, what town? My sil's family lives
in Farmville. I live in NC too, in the western piedmont, near Hickory.

Teresa


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Betsy

**So here it is 16 months later and
he brings home another woman. Both the kids completely lose it. They
ripped into him, screaming,
yelling, crying, saying extremely vicious things**

Well, except for the murderous accusations, I think it's a perfectly
normal way to feel. The dad in this family needs to be able to
understand the kids' feelings, not try to argue them out of having those
feelings just so he can feel better. He should not try to make them
feel wrong about the way they feel.

My uncle is 80 and his wife died a little more than a year ago. When he
got remarried, not all of his kids were cheerful about it. And I'm
talking "kids" that are in their 50s. The hurtful wedge here is that
while a man can find a new life partner, the "children" can't go out and
get a new mother. So it's not surprising that they find another woman
in their mother's "place" to be distressing.

If I die before my husband, I have told him that I don't want him to
live alone, forever. (That doesn't mean I'd "approve" if he started to
date immediately!) But, since I don't always get along with my
stepmother, I've cautioned him about remarrying before my son is 18.
(I'm thinking if I'm dead he can have sex with other women, but can't
make any of them the "boss" of my son.)

Looping back to the beginning, a man who hides his grief from his
children messes everything up. He looks heartless to them and he sets a
bad example to them on how to handle grief. This may or may not have
happened with your friends, but it's pretty typical given the way many
men in our culture think they are supposed to handle their feelings.

My two cents,
Betsy

PS I think counseling is good. Perhaps the dad should go for awhile
and work through his issues (even if he doesn't admit he has any) before
bringing in the kids.

Sylvia Toyama

I don't know where in NC you are -- my Mom is in Cornelius, near Mooresville on Lake Norman. She had mentioned there's a great hospice outfit nearby. They, or any other hospice, might be a good resource for finding a grief counseling/support group. When my grandmother died in '97, the hospice was wonderful for my Mom and her sisters -- they give amazing support to families and survivors. Often, you can find one in the yellow pages.

Sylvia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alice

> She had mentioned there's a great hospice outfit nearby.
> Often, you can find one in the yellow pages.

Thanks. Found one, - the person to talk with wasn't there but will get back to me.

Alice

Ren

They,
or any other hospice, might be a good resource for finding a grief
counseling/support group.

That was what I would suggest also. I did Hopsice grief support for a while, very rewarding work. If you can find a family support group that would be ideal. The one I was with gave the entire family an outlet, no matter what the ages. We had rooms with appropriate activities for all ages. Though the children did separate from the adults for a while so each group could talk in developmentally appropriate ways. Toddlers had a lot of dramatic play items available to help them express feelings, teens had a lot of opportunities to talk and connect with other hurting teens, the games and topics of discussion varied for different ages, but the entire family was in the same house and they could all come and go at the same time. I saw a lot of healing happen there.
It's hard to find support groups like that for some reason. There are often groups for kid OR adults, but none for the entire family at the same time. If you could find that it would be awesome.

Ren

Ren

Another thing, this Dad must be somewhat clueless if he really thought his kids were fine and not even grieving much. That's a big sign that they don't feel they have enough support to share their grieving!

I think he really needs to find ways to honor the memory of their mother, do things that show she is not being forgotten. Special trees planted, memorials made, or rituals really help grieving people find connections to their loved one that has died. We don't ever "get over" losing a loved one, we do however, need to figure out a relationship with them that does not involve their physical presence, a most difficult thing to do.
It doesn't sound like he was honoring her loss, or her memory in very healthy ways.
Something we did at Christmas that was very nourishing for us, was to line our hearth with pictures of our loved ones that are no longer with us. We lit a bunch of small candles and made a small "altar" so to speak. It was very beautiful up there with all the pretty Christmas stuff, and it reminded us of those we miss, but are still with us in so many ways. Honoring the dead is important to the living. I think he really needs to find ways to do this with his children (without the other woman involved as of yet).

Ren

Alice

I haven't been getting all of my yahoo messages, only a spattering here and there. Went to the web
site and found all these I'd never even gotten...

Anyway, thank you for all the help and advice for this family.

>>Well, except for the murderous accusations, I think it's a perfectly
normal way to feel.<<

I'm even finding out that the murderous accusations aren't even all that uncommon.

>>The dad in this family needs to be able to
understand the kids' feelings, not try to argue them out of having those
feelings just so he can feel better. He should not try to make them
feel wrong about the way they feel.<<

He is a very supportive person and always lets them be angry, express there feelings, whatever. He
would never say what they were feeling was wrong. He has said some of the things they said were very
hurtful though.

>>>My uncle is 80 and his wife died a little more than a year ago. When he
got remarried, not all of his kids were cheerful about it. And I'm
talking "kids" that are in their 50s.<<

Wow, I find that pretty amazing. My mom remarried about a year and a half after my dad died. (I was
mid twenties) I loved my dad but was still happy for my mom...

>>>Looping back to the beginning, a man who hides his grief from his
children messes everything up.<<

He definitely never did that. He was very open about how devastated he was. There is an extremely
touching web site dedicated to her and is a very good look at the depth of his love for her.

>>>And a sad side-effect will be that the relatives may have unwittingly
suggested that their mom was wrong to be homeschooling them,<<<

From what I could tell, all the relatives were very supportive of the family homeschooling. The
kids are really bright. All the other homeschool moms that knew her envied her energy and creativity
as she did things with the kids. Then the family took off in an rv and traveled around the country.
I've always heard she did all the right things to foster a love of learning.

BUT then the dad wanted to keep homeschooling them. Mostly because he thought they wanted to, I
think. That didn't work. The daughter wanted the school social scene desperately. So he let them go
this year after giving it a shot last year. I could see how the kids might've changed their minds
about hs'ing (other than wanting the social scene) since he (admittedly) wasn't as relaxed or
creative as she was and did things very differently than she did.

>>>There are often
groups for kid OR adults, but none for the entire family at the same time. If
you could find that it would be awesome.<<<

He contacted the small local hospice and they didn't have anything at all for kids. Then I told him
about the one farther away. I talked to the woman there and she said she'd definitely be able to do
it as a family thing short term and would be able to recommend someone if they wanted to continue.
(I can't see why going with the whole family wouldn't be a common way in the first place) She also
mentioned school counselor or psychologist, which I hadn't thought of.

>>> Another thing, this Dad must be somewhat clueless if he really thought his kids were fine and
not even grieving much. That's a big sign that they don't feel they have enough support to share
their grieving!<<<

This is the confusing part. He grieved openly. Tried at times to bring them out. Asking them if they
ever want to talk about her, it's ok to miss her, that kind of thing. They visit relatives about 6-7
hours away, pretty frequently (her side of the family). This is the message he's always gotten from
the mom's family. "Well _of course_ the kids are doing all right. They're strong, mature, wonderful,
kids. There _her_ kids after all." Like how could you expect kids who had the perfect mother be
anything less than perfect. I'm beginning to think the kids may have been getting that "be strong"
thing (as in don't be sad) from her family or maybe his, who knows?. I remember him trying to bring
them out, trying to get them to show some emotion about there mom and they would get angry with him
and say they were FINE.

>>>I think he really needs to find ways to honor the memory of their mother, do things that show
she is not being forgotten.
It doesn't sound like he was honoring her loss, or her memory in very healthy ways.<<<

Oh, but he has. (I think, anyway) There are library books donated to the local library in her
memory. (He suggested they take one of the books out to read and the daughter got mad.) On the
anniversary of her death they had a celebration of her life and a ceremonial burning of the sympathy
cards they'd received. (apparently the kids thought that was a good idea too, but I thought it
sounded a bit strange) At christmas there was an entire tree in her honor decorated with pics and
mementos (and her favorite hat under it...) He's always made an attempt to keep her memory alive
and speaks of her freely.

Whatever the cause of all the bottled up anger, at least he's not attempting to pretend it didn't
happen. He's doing something about it.

The kids had off of school for the holidays when we had park day (last friday). He managed to
convince the 10yob to go, though not easily. "why do I have to go play with a bunch of
homeschoolers?" Even though he and my son seemed to be really good friends in the past, he seemed to
think he couldn't be friends with him anymore. The next two days is when the "explosion" occurred.
I'm not sure when in time it relates to the woman, but he also said he wasn't really "dating" her,
just invited her and two of her kids to dinner. One thing that was revealed was that the daughter
had been reading his emails!!!! This (as you could imagine) kind of freaked him out. He also
mentioned he thought that the daughter was harmfully influencing the son and putting ideas into his
head. (he didn't say turning him against him, but it sounded something like that)

NOW, (yesterday?) he emailed me and said his son has asked to homeschool again next year. YIPPEE!!
He may not be a lost soul after all. I have no idea what happened for him to change his attitude so
abruptly, but with the proximity of the rough weekend, I wonder... The boy said homeschooling (the
dad said it as "self directed learning") far outweighed any social life he'd get from school. Now I
just have to work on the unschooling part.

Sorry for the lengthy soap opera. But I thought it would help answer some questions.

Thanks again for all the help. I think they're on the right track.

Alice