New Beginnings/Making It Work Help
joylyn
Hey everyone
Once again I am short on Responses for the Column I edit in New
Beginnings. Please help and write a paragraph or two. Here is the
situation.
I have just given birth to my second baby. My first child is almost
eight. My mother very much wants to watch the baby during the day while
I am at work, and to be honest, this would be the ideal situation, as we
will not have to pay her. She loves her grandchildren a great deal and
wants nothing but the best for them, but she doesn't believe in
breastfeeding. How can I make this situation work?
So, send your response to me, joylyn@.... Include your full
name and complete Snail Mail Address (only your name and city/state will
be published, they need your full address to send you a copy of the
magazine if they publish your response). All replies become property of
La Leche League, and are subject to editing.
Thanks for helping!
Joylyn
Once again I am short on Responses for the Column I edit in New
Beginnings. Please help and write a paragraph or two. Here is the
situation.
I have just given birth to my second baby. My first child is almost
eight. My mother very much wants to watch the baby during the day while
I am at work, and to be honest, this would be the ideal situation, as we
will not have to pay her. She loves her grandchildren a great deal and
wants nothing but the best for them, but she doesn't believe in
breastfeeding. How can I make this situation work?
So, send your response to me, joylyn@.... Include your full
name and complete Snail Mail Address (only your name and city/state will
be published, they need your full address to send you a copy of the
magazine if they publish your response). All replies become property of
La Leche League, and are subject to editing.
Thanks for helping!
Joylyn
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/15/2003 2:08:19 AM Central Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:
She loves her grandchildren a great deal and
wants nothing but the best for them, but she doesn't believe in
breastfeeding. How can I make this situation work?
~~~
I don't want my response included in the newsletter....but what difference
does it make? The mom is going to have to pump milk for the baby anyway. Why
can't the grandmother just feed the baby breast milk in a bottle? Isn't that
what would have to happen if the baby were in day care?
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn@... writes:
She loves her grandchildren a great deal and
wants nothing but the best for them, but she doesn't believe in
breastfeeding. How can I make this situation work?
~~~
I don't want my response included in the newsletter....but what difference
does it make? The mom is going to have to pump milk for the baby anyway. Why
can't the grandmother just feed the baby breast milk in a bottle? Isn't that
what would have to happen if the baby were in day care?
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
if the caretaker does not support breastfeeding, then they can do a
great deal to undermine it. This would be especially so if the
caretaker were a grandmother. For instance, she could feed the baby
right before the mom arrived after a day at work. Baby really needs to
be ready to nurse when mom gets home, not full from a bottle.
Joylyn
tuckervill2@... wrote:
great deal to undermine it. This would be especially so if the
caretaker were a grandmother. For instance, she could feed the baby
right before the mom arrived after a day at work. Baby really needs to
be ready to nurse when mom gets home, not full from a bottle.
Joylyn
tuckervill2@... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/15/2003 2:08:19 AM Central Standard Time,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> joylyn@... writes:
> She loves her grandchildren a great deal and
> wants nothing but the best for them, but she doesn't believe in
> breastfeeding. How can I make this situation work?
> ~~~
>
> I don't want my response included in the newsletter....but what
> difference
> does it make? The mom is going to have to pump milk for the baby
> anyway. Why
> can't the grandmother just feed the baby breast milk in a bottle?
> Isn't that
> what would have to happen if the baby were in day care?
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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In a message dated 12/15/03 7:38:07 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< The mom is going to have to pump milk for the baby anyway. Why
can't the grandmother just feed the baby breast milk in a bottle? Isn't that
what would have to happen if the baby were in day care? >>
That's what I thought. What are her options? Is there another nursing mom
she could pay to keep the baby? If expense is the primary consideration,
breastfeeding might just lose out. If she can't stay home with the baby, and if
she can't find someone supportive, then it's over.
Not a good answer for New Beginnings. :-/
On the other hand, outside of La Leche League land, there was an
anthropologist/activist some years back who was doing cross-cultural research on
breastfeeding and her findings disputed LLL's so they weren't referred to by them.
She studied caribbean moms who went to Puerto Rico to work in hotels for five
days, and came back and nursed their babies the other two days. LLL would say
it's impossible. Since they hadn't heard that they made it work. But here's
what happened: They left the babies with their moms during the week, and the
grandmothers fed them. Relactation was a common thing, and when they had
seen others do it, they just pretty much DID it.
Again, not an answer that's going to help your purposes, even if that
grandmother was into the idea of nursing the baby herself. <bwg>
Can the mom and dad arrange their schedule so the dad's home when the mom's
not and he takes the baby to be nursed? That's the only plan B I've ever seen
work really well. That or having a LLL-style mom-friend who' willing to keep
the baby and nurse it sometimes. I've nursed other people's babies, and had
other people nurse mine. Mostly for boo-boos or frustrations when I wasn't
around.
Sandra
<< The mom is going to have to pump milk for the baby anyway. Why
can't the grandmother just feed the baby breast milk in a bottle? Isn't that
what would have to happen if the baby were in day care? >>
That's what I thought. What are her options? Is there another nursing mom
she could pay to keep the baby? If expense is the primary consideration,
breastfeeding might just lose out. If she can't stay home with the baby, and if
she can't find someone supportive, then it's over.
Not a good answer for New Beginnings. :-/
On the other hand, outside of La Leche League land, there was an
anthropologist/activist some years back who was doing cross-cultural research on
breastfeeding and her findings disputed LLL's so they weren't referred to by them.
She studied caribbean moms who went to Puerto Rico to work in hotels for five
days, and came back and nursed their babies the other two days. LLL would say
it's impossible. Since they hadn't heard that they made it work. But here's
what happened: They left the babies with their moms during the week, and the
grandmothers fed them. Relactation was a common thing, and when they had
seen others do it, they just pretty much DID it.
Again, not an answer that's going to help your purposes, even if that
grandmother was into the idea of nursing the baby herself. <bwg>
Can the mom and dad arrange their schedule so the dad's home when the mom's
not and he takes the baby to be nursed? That's the only plan B I've ever seen
work really well. That or having a LLL-style mom-friend who' willing to keep
the baby and nurse it sometimes. I've nursed other people's babies, and had
other people nurse mine. Mostly for boo-boos or frustrations when I wasn't
around.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>That doesn't surprise me. My first baby was 2 months early and ended up
>On the other hand, outside of La Leche League land, there was an
>anthropologist/activist some years back who was doing cross-cultural
>research on
>breastfeeding and her findings disputed LLL's so they weren't referred to
>by them.
>She studied caribbean moms who went to Puerto Rico to work in hotels for five
>days, and came back and nursed their babies the other two days. LLL would
>say
>it's impossible. Since they hadn't heard that they made it work. But
>here's
>what happened: They left the babies with their moms during the week, and the
>grandmothers fed them. Relactation was a common thing, and when they had
>seen others do it, they just pretty much DID it.
with serious health problems. I wasn't able to nurse her for the first time
until she was 6 weeks old, and she spent half her short life (7 1/2 months)
in hospital, off and on. The first few times I did nurse her, it took a
little patience, but after that she was always quite happy to nurse rather
than drink the breastmilk from a bottle, even when I was only able to see
her once a week. (She was in hospital in Vancouver, pretty much an all day
trip there and back.) I got *very* good at expressing milk.
Tia
nellebelle
I just got off of the phone with my mother. She lives near my brother and babysits frequently for my 8 yo nephew. She babysat this weekend, and my sil had told Alek that he couldn't watch TV while at Gramma's. (They limit his TV, obviously.) I think it was rude of my sil to dictate how they spend their time when my mom is doing her the favor of free child care.
I think this relates to this woman's situation, as in, you get what you pay for. Maybe she should insist on paying her mother for the childcare. Otherwise, she can only request, rather than order, how the grandmother cares for the child.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think this relates to this woman's situation, as in, you get what you pay for. Maybe she should insist on paying her mother for the childcare. Otherwise, she can only request, rather than order, how the grandmother cares for the child.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/15/03 11:31:46 AM, leschke@... writes:
<< after that she was always quite happy to nurse rather
than drink the breastmilk from a bottle, even when I was only able to see
her once a week. >>
Ariana.
That's a good memory to have of her. I'm glad you got to nurse her, and I'm
sorry she isn't still with you, all grown up. How old would she be?
Sandra
<< after that she was always quite happy to nurse rather
than drink the breastmilk from a bottle, even when I was only able to see
her once a week. >>
Ariana.
That's a good memory to have of her. I'm glad you got to nurse her, and I'm
sorry she isn't still with you, all grown up. How old would she be?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/15/03 11:49:44 AM, nellebelle@... writes:
<< She babysat this weekend, and my sil had told Alek that he couldn't watch
TV while at Gramma's. (They limit his TV, obviously.) I think it was rude of
my sil to dictate how they spend their time when my mom is doing her the
favor of free child care. >>
Yeah, I HATE that. Some parents of other kids have from time to time through
the years tried to tell me, or tell them in front of me, what they couldn't
do at my house.
Screw that. It's my house. They can leave their kids at my house or they
can not, but my house doesn't become in ANY way *their* house just because their
kid is there.
Another freakishly rude thing I've noticed is that some people (and all of
them had lived in places east of here before coming here, so I could blame it on
that, but maybe its incidental) just walk in the house without even knocking
or saying hello just because their kid is here. That's RUDE. It's like a
surprise inspection, or like because their child has been left here, their own
"visit" lasted from when they dropped the kid off to when they picked them up.
(I'm thinking of another family that NEVER does any such thing, and they had
never lived this far west before. <g>)
This is not to say that we treat guests like they live here. If a child is
from a family where they don't use bad language, we totally tone down, and if
anyone slips there's an apology. If the kids family really wouldn't want them
watching R rated movies, all my kids would be really sensitive to that. I
was listening to the South Park Movie soundtrack once with a family came over
and I didn't even think about it, but Marty casually went over and turned the
volume way down.
We do that out of courtesy and "hostliness."
What someone else is doing if they demand their kid can't do/eat/see/play
this or that is extremely rude, and I wouldn't even make exceptions if they WERE
paying me. Grandmother or not, there's not enough money for me to deprive a
child of something harmless or to extend a punishment at my house (play warden
for somone else's grounded or restricted child) or anything else stupid like
that.
Twice someone has tried to tell me "Caiti (I forget who the other one is) is
grounded for a week and so she can't watch TV or play video games" or
something like that, and I looked straight back at the parent and said, "That's not
going to work. There are other kids here and I don't want to let all but one,
and I don't want to restrict them all." I think the other one was a food
restriction as punishment, like no soda, no sweets or something. And it wasn't
constant state or policy, it was "he's in trouble so..." and I said "huh uh,
you can continue it later at your house." I can avoid things like that, but
I'm not going to forbid ALL kids to punish one.
I got my way both times, but then I'm kinda courageous that way. And neither
one wanted to take their kid away with them.
Sandra
<< She babysat this weekend, and my sil had told Alek that he couldn't watch
TV while at Gramma's. (They limit his TV, obviously.) I think it was rude of
my sil to dictate how they spend their time when my mom is doing her the
favor of free child care. >>
Yeah, I HATE that. Some parents of other kids have from time to time through
the years tried to tell me, or tell them in front of me, what they couldn't
do at my house.
Screw that. It's my house. They can leave their kids at my house or they
can not, but my house doesn't become in ANY way *their* house just because their
kid is there.
Another freakishly rude thing I've noticed is that some people (and all of
them had lived in places east of here before coming here, so I could blame it on
that, but maybe its incidental) just walk in the house without even knocking
or saying hello just because their kid is here. That's RUDE. It's like a
surprise inspection, or like because their child has been left here, their own
"visit" lasted from when they dropped the kid off to when they picked them up.
(I'm thinking of another family that NEVER does any such thing, and they had
never lived this far west before. <g>)
This is not to say that we treat guests like they live here. If a child is
from a family where they don't use bad language, we totally tone down, and if
anyone slips there's an apology. If the kids family really wouldn't want them
watching R rated movies, all my kids would be really sensitive to that. I
was listening to the South Park Movie soundtrack once with a family came over
and I didn't even think about it, but Marty casually went over and turned the
volume way down.
We do that out of courtesy and "hostliness."
What someone else is doing if they demand their kid can't do/eat/see/play
this or that is extremely rude, and I wouldn't even make exceptions if they WERE
paying me. Grandmother or not, there's not enough money for me to deprive a
child of something harmless or to extend a punishment at my house (play warden
for somone else's grounded or restricted child) or anything else stupid like
that.
Twice someone has tried to tell me "Caiti (I forget who the other one is) is
grounded for a week and so she can't watch TV or play video games" or
something like that, and I looked straight back at the parent and said, "That's not
going to work. There are other kids here and I don't want to let all but one,
and I don't want to restrict them all." I think the other one was a food
restriction as punishment, like no soda, no sweets or something. And it wasn't
constant state or policy, it was "he's in trouble so..." and I said "huh uh,
you can continue it later at your house." I can avoid things like that, but
I'm not going to forbid ALL kids to punish one.
I got my way both times, but then I'm kinda courageous that way. And neither
one wanted to take their kid away with them.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
At 10:52 AM 12/15/2003, you wrote:
Tia
>In a message dated 12/15/03 11:31:46 AM, leschke@... writes:You remembered! %^ )
>
><< after that she was always quite happy to nurse rather
>than drink the breastmilk from a bottle, even when I was only able to see
>her once a week. >>
>
>Ariana.
>That's a good memory to have of her. I'm glad you got to nurse her, and I'mThirty, a couple of days ago. I guess maybe that's why I was thinking of her.
>sorry she isn't still with you, all grown up. How old would she be?
Tia
Kate ODonovan
Hi, I usually lurk but enjoy reading the posts. Last year I decided to supplement my income while homeschooling. I decided to take in two girls from the neighborhood and get them on the bus in the morning and get them off the bus in the afternoon. I think they were probably here for a total of 1 hour in the morning and 1.5 to 2 hours in the afternoon. The mother was paying me next to nothing for the kids (which I agreed to like an indiot) and I fed them breakfast in the a.m. and a healthy snack in the afternoon. She insisted that all of their homework be done by the time she picked them up. I would let them decompress a bit when they got off the bus because these kids were going all day. On top of it, she was separated from her husband and this guy decided to show up after school unannounced to have visitation with his kids. No one told me this would happen or asked if it was okay with me. I didn't even know this guy, but I guess he didn't want to visit his kids at their house. It made me very uncomfortable and he insisted on having my phone number so that he could call them and talk to them at my house for 1/2 at a time. This guy would come and get his kids riled up, and in the process get my son excited (he has aspergers - autism). How do you address something like that? You would think that people have the common sense to know better, but I guess not. When I finally told her I couldn't watch her girls anymore, she asked "Is it because of what is going on with my husband?" I didn't want to hurt her feelings, so I made up some lame excuse.
Kate
Kate
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] New Beginnings/Making It Work Help
In a message dated 12/15/03 11:49:44 AM, nellebelle@... writes:
<< She babysat this weekend, and my sil had told Alek that he couldn't watch
TV while at Gramma's. (They limit his TV, obviously.) I think it was rude of
my sil to dictate how they spend their time when my mom is doing her the
favor of free child care. >>
Yeah, I HATE that. Some parents of other kids have from time to time through
the years tried to tell me, or tell them in front of me, what they couldn't
do at my house.
Screw that. It's my house. They can leave their kids at my house or they
can not, but my house doesn't become in ANY way *their* house just because their
kid is there.
Another freakishly rude thing I've noticed is that some people (and all of
them had lived in places east of here before coming here, so I could blame it on
that, but maybe its incidental) just walk in the house without even knocking
or saying hello just because their kid is here. That's RUDE. It's like a
surprise inspection, or like because their child has been left here, their own
"visit" lasted from when they dropped the kid off to when they picked them up.
(I'm thinking of another family that NEVER does any such thing, and they had
never lived this far west before. <g>)
This is not to say that we treat guests like they live here. If a child is
from a family where they don't use bad language, we totally tone down, and if
anyone slips there's an apology. If the kids family really wouldn't want them
watching R rated movies, all my kids would be really sensitive to that. I
was listening to the South Park Movie soundtrack once with a family came over
and I didn't even think about it, but Marty casually went over and turned the
volume way down.
We do that out of courtesy and "hostliness."
What someone else is doing if they demand their kid can't do/eat/see/play
this or that is extremely rude, and I wouldn't even make exceptions if they WERE
paying me. Grandmother or not, there's not enough money for me to deprive a
child of something harmless or to extend a punishment at my house (play warden
for somone else's grounded or restricted child) or anything else stupid like
that.
Twice someone has tried to tell me "Caiti (I forget who the other one is) is
grounded for a week and so she can't watch TV or play video games" or
something like that, and I looked straight back at the parent and said, "That's not
going to work. There are other kids here and I don't want to let all but one,
and I don't want to restrict them all." I think the other one was a food
restriction as punishment, like no soda, no sweets or something. And it wasn't
constant state or policy, it was "he's in trouble so..." and I said "huh uh,
you can continue it later at your house." I can avoid things like that, but
I'm not going to forbid ALL kids to punish one.
I got my way both times, but then I'm kinda courageous that way. And neither
one wanted to take their kid away with them.
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alicia Bayer
I don't think the mom was out of line. She obviously has strong
feelings about TV not being good for her child. My cousin is a
vegetarian and my aunt used to sneak her kids meat behind mom's back
as a treat. My in-laws sneak the grandkids candy even though my SIL
doesn't want them having it. It's great to help out and watch the
grandkids, but I do think that even with free help you have a right to
have your values respected. What's no big deal to one person can be
quite important to another.
My kids are free to have candy, meat or TV at grandma or grandpas, but
I would be furious if they let them near guns or took them hunting.
They have the right to say forget it, but I'd hope they'd understand
that we all have our own personal beliefs, you know? JMHO :)
--
Alicia
A Magical Childhood
http://www.magicalchildhood.com
"The best way to make children good is to make them happy."
- Oscar Wilde
feelings about TV not being good for her child. My cousin is a
vegetarian and my aunt used to sneak her kids meat behind mom's back
as a treat. My in-laws sneak the grandkids candy even though my SIL
doesn't want them having it. It's great to help out and watch the
grandkids, but I do think that even with free help you have a right to
have your values respected. What's no big deal to one person can be
quite important to another.
My kids are free to have candy, meat or TV at grandma or grandpas, but
I would be furious if they let them near guns or took them hunting.
They have the right to say forget it, but I'd hope they'd understand
that we all have our own personal beliefs, you know? JMHO :)
--
Alicia
A Magical Childhood
http://www.magicalchildhood.com
"The best way to make children good is to make them happy."
- Oscar Wilde
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/15/03 7:42:59 PM, abayer@... writes:
<< I don't think the mom was out of line. She obviously has strong
feelings about TV not being good for her child. My cousin is a
vegetarian and my aunt used to sneak her kids meat behind mom's back
as a treat. >>
I'm not saying the aunt is right, but IF the kids considered meat a treat,
maybe THEY were not vegetarian. If the mom wants to force vegetarianism on them
against their own personal human will, then maybe she needs to only leave
them with other controlling vegetarians.
And if someone brings children to my house where I have children, and if my
children want to watch TV and the other family wouldn't let their child at
home, then you think THEIR home rules come to apply to my children and to me?
That's the cost of doing them a favor?
<<My kids are free to have candy, meat or TV at grandma or grandpas,>>
Are they free to have candy, meat or TV at your house?
<<I would be furious if they let them near guns or took them hunting.>>
Has that ever happened?
Because the examples I gave were not hypotheticals. They really happened.
The example the first poster gave was a true story, but you're defending a
hypothetical.
I wouldn't be happy if someone let one of my kids drive a truck on mountain
roads, but how likely is that? And if I had left my child with my dad (who
isn't living) he would have had guns locked up in a gun cabinet (which he always
had, always locked when I was a kid) and if one of my kids had asked if he
could hold one of those guns that he could see through glass, my dad would have
said "Okay," and he would have sat with him and let him hold an unloaded gun,
and it would have been safe and a good learning experience for my child. If
my dad were to say, "Well there the guns are, but your mom doesn't have guns
at her house, so I'm not going to let you hold mine," he would be depriving
the child of an excellent opportunity based on MY philosophy of depriving
children of opportunity.
I don't have such a philosophy.
My philosophy is so much the opposite, that I can't even assist other
families in deprivation. Courtesy, yes. Punitive control, no. Limiting
non-harmful exposure to the world which is there and already in progress, no. If
others want that on their conscience, that's their psyche. I don't want the
crushed look of a child who was treated unreasonably on my own conscience.
<<They have the right to say forget it, but I'd hope they'd understand
that we all have our own personal beliefs, you know? JMHO :)
them.
Some people are intimidated by others and would inconvenience themselves and
their children in their own homes just to avoid the slight displeasure of
someone else. It would be abusive of the "else" person to accept that behavior.
But someone who deprives a child of television even in other places is used to
being abusive of other people's good will.
At a small homeschooling convention here there was a room for the kids to
play in. The kids were WAY overly controlled, one day by paid babysitters and
another day by girl scouts earning a badge or getting service points or
something, but there was a playground and a room with a tv where they were showing kid
videos. One family had kids who really liked Holly, and the two younger
kids were following her around. She was fine with that, but the little girl
turned her younger brother around so he couldn't see the TV because they weren't
allowed to watch television. Apparently they were allowed to be in the room
where there was a video on, as long as they averted their eyes.
That's stupid.
She wanted Holly to help her make sure her brother didn't so much as glance
at the TV.
That's not what Holly's life is for.
And that's not, in my experience, worth a damn as far as personal self esteem
and natural learning go. They were learning something, but it was wrong and
arbitrary. Their parents' personal beliefs were impinging HUGELY on Holly's
life at that moment. Holly was learning something too, but I was hoping she
had gone longer without knowing how controlling some parents are.
Sandra
<< I don't think the mom was out of line. She obviously has strong
feelings about TV not being good for her child. My cousin is a
vegetarian and my aunt used to sneak her kids meat behind mom's back
as a treat. >>
I'm not saying the aunt is right, but IF the kids considered meat a treat,
maybe THEY were not vegetarian. If the mom wants to force vegetarianism on them
against their own personal human will, then maybe she needs to only leave
them with other controlling vegetarians.
And if someone brings children to my house where I have children, and if my
children want to watch TV and the other family wouldn't let their child at
home, then you think THEIR home rules come to apply to my children and to me?
That's the cost of doing them a favor?
<<My kids are free to have candy, meat or TV at grandma or grandpas,>>
Are they free to have candy, meat or TV at your house?
<<I would be furious if they let them near guns or took them hunting.>>
Has that ever happened?
Because the examples I gave were not hypotheticals. They really happened.
The example the first poster gave was a true story, but you're defending a
hypothetical.
I wouldn't be happy if someone let one of my kids drive a truck on mountain
roads, but how likely is that? And if I had left my child with my dad (who
isn't living) he would have had guns locked up in a gun cabinet (which he always
had, always locked when I was a kid) and if one of my kids had asked if he
could hold one of those guns that he could see through glass, my dad would have
said "Okay," and he would have sat with him and let him hold an unloaded gun,
and it would have been safe and a good learning experience for my child. If
my dad were to say, "Well there the guns are, but your mom doesn't have guns
at her house, so I'm not going to let you hold mine," he would be depriving
the child of an excellent opportunity based on MY philosophy of depriving
children of opportunity.
I don't have such a philosophy.
My philosophy is so much the opposite, that I can't even assist other
families in deprivation. Courtesy, yes. Punitive control, no. Limiting
non-harmful exposure to the world which is there and already in progress, no. If
others want that on their conscience, that's their psyche. I don't want the
crushed look of a child who was treated unreasonably on my own conscience.
<<They have the right to say forget it, but I'd hope they'd understand
that we all have our own personal beliefs, you know? JMHO :)
>>Some personal beliefs are small and embarrassing, and I won't help enforce
them.
Some people are intimidated by others and would inconvenience themselves and
their children in their own homes just to avoid the slight displeasure of
someone else. It would be abusive of the "else" person to accept that behavior.
But someone who deprives a child of television even in other places is used to
being abusive of other people's good will.
At a small homeschooling convention here there was a room for the kids to
play in. The kids were WAY overly controlled, one day by paid babysitters and
another day by girl scouts earning a badge or getting service points or
something, but there was a playground and a room with a tv where they were showing kid
videos. One family had kids who really liked Holly, and the two younger
kids were following her around. She was fine with that, but the little girl
turned her younger brother around so he couldn't see the TV because they weren't
allowed to watch television. Apparently they were allowed to be in the room
where there was a video on, as long as they averted their eyes.
That's stupid.
She wanted Holly to help her make sure her brother didn't so much as glance
at the TV.
That's not what Holly's life is for.
And that's not, in my experience, worth a damn as far as personal self esteem
and natural learning go. They were learning something, but it was wrong and
arbitrary. Their parents' personal beliefs were impinging HUGELY on Holly's
life at that moment. Holly was learning something too, but I was hoping she
had gone longer without knowing how controlling some parents are.
Sandra
Sylvia Toyama
I think this relates to this woman's situation, as in, you get what you pay for. Maybe she should insist on paying her mother for the childcare. Otherwise, she can only request, rather than order, how the grandmother cares for the child.
Mary Ellen
+++++
I disagree. This is going to sound harsh, but here goes. As the Mom I get to tell ANYONE who watches my child how it will be done, whether or not I pay them. If I don't like the way it's being done, they won't get unsupervised access to my kids. Period. I've made it clear to both my parents -- subtly needed with my Mom, very directly with my Dad -- that their access to my children (their grandchildren) depends entirely on their respect for the rules and choices Gary & I have made. They got to make their choices for us, and I make mine. I know it sounds like 'play my way or not at all' and that's exactly what it is. Part of my job is to protect my kids from the dangerous practices of other people, however well-intended.
As the idea of paying Grandma for daycare so that she has to do it Mom's way -- don't trust that to be enough. If Grandma is so pushy as to do it her way just because she's doing it for free, she's not to be trusted.
Syl
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Mary Ellen
+++++
I disagree. This is going to sound harsh, but here goes. As the Mom I get to tell ANYONE who watches my child how it will be done, whether or not I pay them. If I don't like the way it's being done, they won't get unsupervised access to my kids. Period. I've made it clear to both my parents -- subtly needed with my Mom, very directly with my Dad -- that their access to my children (their grandchildren) depends entirely on their respect for the rules and choices Gary & I have made. They got to make their choices for us, and I make mine. I know it sounds like 'play my way or not at all' and that's exactly what it is. Part of my job is to protect my kids from the dangerous practices of other people, however well-intended.
As the idea of paying Grandma for daycare so that she has to do it Mom's way -- don't trust that to be enough. If Grandma is so pushy as to do it her way just because she's doing it for free, she's not to be trusted.
Syl
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j n
In response to Tues, Dec. 2 2003 posted by SandraDodd@...
I have never posted anything to this group before and I would like say that I have the most respect for you but I do disagree with some of what you have said.
I am concerned about your comment �Limiting non-harmful exposure...� I think our definition of non-harmful are completely different. TV could be harmful. This was a very powerful statement and I hope that you weren't impling that we should not have limitations in our lives.
For example, I prefer my children not to watch tv. Thus, the tv is kept is the closet and we bring it out when once a week or more if desired, it is not really an issue. My son has a friend that watches tv constantly and he loves to play with her. I am sure they watch a lot of tv when they play at her house. Which is fine, I hope he is learning that different people do different things in their house. When is Rome do as the Romans. Because my son does not watch a lot of tv many television shows are frightening to him, including most Disney movies. I would hope that her mother would be kind enough to turn off the tv or send my child home if he says, or shows signs, that he is scared or frightened. I hope she would do this in a manor so he wouldn't feel embarressed. What is appropriate for her child may not be for my child and by inviting my child over the mother needs to be compasionate towards their differences.
I do argee that trying to protect your child from reality, or what many people consider to be reality, is wrong. As parents we should set the example for moderation and self control. I choose not to swear, but if one of my children chooses to swear as his parent it is my responsibity to let him know that some people may find it offensive. He may swear at home but if Grandma comes over she may get very angry and he needs to accept the consequences that she may impose.
Jody
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I have never posted anything to this group before and I would like say that I have the most respect for you but I do disagree with some of what you have said.
I am concerned about your comment �Limiting non-harmful exposure...� I think our definition of non-harmful are completely different. TV could be harmful. This was a very powerful statement and I hope that you weren't impling that we should not have limitations in our lives.
For example, I prefer my children not to watch tv. Thus, the tv is kept is the closet and we bring it out when once a week or more if desired, it is not really an issue. My son has a friend that watches tv constantly and he loves to play with her. I am sure they watch a lot of tv when they play at her house. Which is fine, I hope he is learning that different people do different things in their house. When is Rome do as the Romans. Because my son does not watch a lot of tv many television shows are frightening to him, including most Disney movies. I would hope that her mother would be kind enough to turn off the tv or send my child home if he says, or shows signs, that he is scared or frightened. I hope she would do this in a manor so he wouldn't feel embarressed. What is appropriate for her child may not be for my child and by inviting my child over the mother needs to be compasionate towards their differences.
I do argee that trying to protect your child from reality, or what many people consider to be reality, is wrong. As parents we should set the example for moderation and self control. I choose not to swear, but if one of my children chooses to swear as his parent it is my responsibity to let him know that some people may find it offensive. He may swear at home but if Grandma comes over she may get very angry and he needs to accept the consequences that she may impose.
Jody
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Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
>SNork!!!
>grandkids, but I do think that even with free help you have a right to
>have your values respected. What's no big deal to one person can be
>quite important to another.
>
>My kids are free to have candy, meat or TV at grandma or grandpas, but
>I would be furious if they let them near guns or took them hunting.
>They have the right to say forget it, but I'd hope they'd understand
>that we all have our own personal beliefs, you know? JMHO :)
Did you hear that?
It's just fine if the folks expose the kids to whatever you're okay with,
but it's not fine for them to expose the kids to something that you're NOT
okay with?
What if you weren't personally fine with meat? Would it be okay for your
kids to eat meat at their gpas house? Many people feel very strongly about
vegginess, probably stronger than they might about gun use, but does that
mean their kids don't have the right to choose their own path? What about
bedtimes? Do you get to decide that? What they wear? Who they talk
to? etc, etc. What if your child really and truly wanted to try public
school. Would you honor their belief that it's what they need at that
particular time? When do the kids get to lead their own lives?
Your personal beliefs are YOUR personal beliefs, not the beliefs of your
kids.
(given that the gpa didn't *force* the kids to go hunting and isn't sloppy
with his gun safety and if he was and you knew there were guns in the
house, I'm sure you wouldn't leave your kids there anyway, eh?)
HeidiWD
(I am for gun control like crazy, but my son wanted a gun, so we ALL took
safety classes and he got one. Turns out, he's a crack shot.)
Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything. - Frank Dane
nellebelle
>>As the Mom I get to tell ANYONE who watches my child how it will be done, whether or not I pay them.>>>>>If a loving relative or caring friend is providing free childcare, they are not your slave. They are doing you a favor.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/16/03 9:58:52 AM, syltoyama@... writes:
<< I know it sounds like 'play my way or not at all' and that's exactly what
it is. >>
Right. But the other situations were a parent wanting a friend or relative
to do THEM a favor. They weren't a requested visit from a grandparent.
If Keith's parents invited one of our kids to visit, I would tell them not to
quiz the kid on math facts and not to make him eat beef tongue, or the visit
was off.
But if Keith and I wanted to go to El Paso kid-free overnight (which happened
once, long ago), we're the supplicants, not the suppliers of fun.
Keith's parents watch TV. If my kids are going there they'll see TV>
Keith's parents NEVER ever drink and drive. If they were drunks, I wouldn't
leave my kids at all.
So I don't know what practices of other people you're thinking of, but those
who think a kid glancing at a TV is in as much peril as riding with a drunk
just need to keep their kids away from houses where the TV might be on.
Sandra
<< I know it sounds like 'play my way or not at all' and that's exactly what
it is. >>
Right. But the other situations were a parent wanting a friend or relative
to do THEM a favor. They weren't a requested visit from a grandparent.
If Keith's parents invited one of our kids to visit, I would tell them not to
quiz the kid on math facts and not to make him eat beef tongue, or the visit
was off.
But if Keith and I wanted to go to El Paso kid-free overnight (which happened
once, long ago), we're the supplicants, not the suppliers of fun.
Keith's parents watch TV. If my kids are going there they'll see TV>
Keith's parents NEVER ever drink and drive. If they were drunks, I wouldn't
leave my kids at all.
So I don't know what practices of other people you're thinking of, but those
who think a kid glancing at a TV is in as much peril as riding with a drunk
just need to keep their kids away from houses where the TV might be on.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/16/03 10:41:17 AM, jkn_03@... writes:
<< I am concerned about your comment “Limiting non-harmful exposure...” I
think our definition of non-harmful are completely different. >>
That's fine. And my kids wouldn't show scary shows to another child who was
visiting. They would probably want to play outside, but it does happen that
kids whose TV viewing is limited at home will want to nothing BUT watch TV when
they go and visit.
<<TV could be harmful. This was a very powerful statement and I hope that you
weren't impling that we should not have limitations in our lives. >>
Are you limiting me to two choices?
We should have limitations in our lives, or we should not have limitations in
our lives?
If those are my only two choices, I pick "not."
Those are, though, NOT my only two choices, nor anyone's only two choices.
<<For example, I prefer my children not to watch tv. Thus, the tv is kept is
the closet and we bring it out when once a week or more if desired, it is not
really an issue. >>
How old are your children?
When they can read, will you lock the books and magazines in the closet?
<< Because my son does not watch a lot of tv many television shows are
frightening to him>>
I see that as a bad result, personally, but you don't.
<<I do argee that trying to protect your child from reality, or what many
people consider to be reality, is wrong. >>
I protect my kids from lots of reality. I haven't given them any details of
the suicides I've known of in my life. I don't give them details of divorces
in families they know. I don't watch the local news unless someone I know is
going to be on it, because it's too often a dead baby report and it makes me
sad and frustrated. When we're downtown, I don't seek out homeless guys and
ask them to watch my kids. When we rode a city bus last week, I sat with Holly
instead of sitting elsewhere and leaving her to sit with someone she didn't
know when the bus filled up.
That's protection.
But arranging a comfortable place for Holly to watch Between the Lions and
Arthur in the den by the fireplace in our house, that's also protection.
I have collected TV input and links here:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
and there's an article on balance which is in the current issue of Home
Education Magazine here:
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
Sandra
<< I am concerned about your comment “Limiting non-harmful exposure...” I
think our definition of non-harmful are completely different. >>
That's fine. And my kids wouldn't show scary shows to another child who was
visiting. They would probably want to play outside, but it does happen that
kids whose TV viewing is limited at home will want to nothing BUT watch TV when
they go and visit.
<<TV could be harmful. This was a very powerful statement and I hope that you
weren't impling that we should not have limitations in our lives. >>
Are you limiting me to two choices?
We should have limitations in our lives, or we should not have limitations in
our lives?
If those are my only two choices, I pick "not."
Those are, though, NOT my only two choices, nor anyone's only two choices.
<<For example, I prefer my children not to watch tv. Thus, the tv is kept is
the closet and we bring it out when once a week or more if desired, it is not
really an issue. >>
How old are your children?
When they can read, will you lock the books and magazines in the closet?
<< Because my son does not watch a lot of tv many television shows are
frightening to him>>
I see that as a bad result, personally, but you don't.
<<I do argee that trying to protect your child from reality, or what many
people consider to be reality, is wrong. >>
I protect my kids from lots of reality. I haven't given them any details of
the suicides I've known of in my life. I don't give them details of divorces
in families they know. I don't watch the local news unless someone I know is
going to be on it, because it's too often a dead baby report and it makes me
sad and frustrated. When we're downtown, I don't seek out homeless guys and
ask them to watch my kids. When we rode a city bus last week, I sat with Holly
instead of sitting elsewhere and leaving her to sit with someone she didn't
know when the bus filled up.
That's protection.
But arranging a comfortable place for Holly to watch Between the Lions and
Arthur in the den by the fireplace in our house, that's also protection.
I have collected TV input and links here:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
and there's an article on balance which is in the current issue of Home
Education Magazine here:
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
Sandra
[email protected]
I have to say that I would be upset with the idea that your
mother does not wish to honor the way that you have decided to raise
your child. She needs to take a back seat on this (whether she is
paid or not makes NO difference - it is simply not her child and she
should not make the decisions) or I suggest you find a more
appropriate care giver for your child. Talk with her in depth and
show her why breastmilk is so much healthier for your child and
insist that if she truely wants to be a part of your child's life in
this way then she needs to follow your decisions. If you let her
take the child and not do this and let her undermine you in this
case then she will find many more ways to undermine you as the child
gets older as well. Free should never be confused with best. I
truely hope that you can work things out. Moza
mother does not wish to honor the way that you have decided to raise
your child. She needs to take a back seat on this (whether she is
paid or not makes NO difference - it is simply not her child and she
should not make the decisions) or I suggest you find a more
appropriate care giver for your child. Talk with her in depth and
show her why breastmilk is so much healthier for your child and
insist that if she truely wants to be a part of your child's life in
this way then she needs to follow your decisions. If you let her
take the child and not do this and let her undermine you in this
case then she will find many more ways to undermine you as the child
gets older as well. Free should never be confused with best. I
truely hope that you can work things out. Moza
--- In [email protected], joylyn <joylyn@e...> wrote:
> Hey everyone
>
> Once again I am short on Responses for the Column I edit in New
> Beginnings. Please help and write a paragraph or two. Here is
the
> situation.
>
> I have just given birth to my second baby. My first child is
almost
> eight. My mother very much wants to watch the baby during the day
while
> I am at work, and to be honest, this would be the ideal situation,
as we
> will not have to pay her. She loves her grandchildren a great
deal and
> wants nothing but the best for them, but she doesn't believe in
> breastfeeding. How can I make this situation work?
>
> So, send your response to me, joylyn@e... Include your full
> name and complete Snail Mail Address (only your name and
city/state will
> be published, they need your full address to send you a copy of
the
> magazine if they publish your response). All replies become
property of
> La Leche League, and are subject to editing.
>
> Thanks for helping!
>
> Joylyn
Stephanie Jackson
I've only recently joined this group, and this
volley of messages has me quite concerned. I
joined the group for support, and this sounds
downright combative to me. Is this a common
practice in this group? I'd like to know if I
should look elsewhere for friendly support.
Thanks.
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
Stephanie Jackson, Mommy to Clara
We don't inherit the Earth from our parents.
We borrow it from our children.
__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
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volley of messages has me quite concerned. I
joined the group for support, and this sounds
downright combative to me. Is this a common
practice in this group? I'd like to know if I
should look elsewhere for friendly support.
Thanks.
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html
> In a message dated 12/16/03 10:41:17 AM,
> jkn_03@... writes:
>
> << I am concerned about your comment
> ���Limiting non-harmful exposure...��� I
> think our definition of non-harmful are
> completely different. >>
>
> That's fine. And my kids wouldn't show scary
> shows to another child who was
> visiting. They would probably want to play
> outside, but it does happen that
> kids whose TV viewing is limited at home will
> want to nothing BUT watch TV when
> they go and visit.
>
> <<TV could be harmful. This was a very powerful
> statement and I hope that you
> weren't impling that we should not have
> limitations in our lives. >>
>
> Are you limiting me to two choices?
> We should have limitations in our lives, or we
> should not have limitations in
> our lives?
>
> If those are my only two choices, I pick "not."
>
> Those are, though, NOT my only two choices, nor
> anyone's only two choices.
>
>
> <<For example, I prefer my children not to
> watch tv. Thus, the tv is kept is
> the closet and we bring it out when once a week
> or more if desired, it is not
> really an issue. >>
>
> How old are your children?
> When they can read, will you lock the books and
> magazines in the closet?
>
> << Because my son does not watch a lot of tv
> many television shows are
> frightening to him>>
>
> I see that as a bad result, personally, but you
> don't.
>
> <<I do argee that trying to protect your child
> from reality, or what many
> people consider to be reality, is wrong. >>
>
> I protect my kids from lots of reality. I
> haven't given them any details of
> the suicides I've known of in my life. I don't
> give them details of divorces
> in families they know. I don't watch the local
> news unless someone I know is
> going to be on it, because it's too often a
> dead baby report and it makes me
> sad and frustrated. When we're downtown, I
> don't seek out homeless guys and
> ask them to watch my kids. When we rode a city
> bus last week, I sat with Holly
> instead of sitting elsewhere and leaving her to
> sit with someone she didn't
> know when the bus filled up.
>
> That's protection.
>
> But arranging a comfortable place for Holly to
> watch Between the Lions and
> Arthur in the den by the fireplace in our
> house, that's also protection.
>
> I have collected TV input and links here:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/tv
>
> and there's an article on balance which is in
> the current issue of Home
> Education Magazine here:
>
>
>=====
> Sandra
>
Stephanie Jackson, Mommy to Clara
We don't inherit the Earth from our parents.
We borrow it from our children.
__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/16/03 4:20:35 PM, SMc42TX@... writes:
<< I've only recently joined this group, and this
volley of messages has me quite concerned. I
joined the group for support, and this sounds
downright combative to me. Is this a common
practice in this group? I'd like to know if I
should look elsewhere for friendly support. >>
Sometimes the group is really quiet, sometimes it's boring, sometimes its
exciting, but it's to discuss real issues concerning natural learning, it's not
"friendly support" IF by friendly support you mean people agreeing with
everyone and saying "lovely" about things without really examining them.
"I'd like to know if I should look elsewhere for friendly support" is fishing
for reassurance, or for us to stop an exchange that's making you
uncomfortable.
There is lots of unschooling stuff sitting still, not seeming combative at
all, linked from here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
www.unschooling.com
at the message boards,
LOTS of information; you could read for a year
There are several other unschooling lists at yahoogroups.
Unschooling-cafe
unschooling-101 ?? (is that the name of that one?)
UnschoolingDiscussion
Maybe try several. But none of them will stay the same way all the time.
Sandra
<< I've only recently joined this group, and this
volley of messages has me quite concerned. I
joined the group for support, and this sounds
downright combative to me. Is this a common
practice in this group? I'd like to know if I
should look elsewhere for friendly support. >>
Sometimes the group is really quiet, sometimes it's boring, sometimes its
exciting, but it's to discuss real issues concerning natural learning, it's not
"friendly support" IF by friendly support you mean people agreeing with
everyone and saying "lovely" about things without really examining them.
"I'd like to know if I should look elsewhere for friendly support" is fishing
for reassurance, or for us to stop an exchange that's making you
uncomfortable.
There is lots of unschooling stuff sitting still, not seeming combative at
all, linked from here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
www.unschooling.com
at the message boards,
LOTS of information; you could read for a year
There are several other unschooling lists at yahoogroups.
Unschooling-cafe
unschooling-101 ?? (is that the name of that one?)
UnschoolingDiscussion
Maybe try several. But none of them will stay the same way all the time.
Sandra
Sylvia Toyama
If a loving relative or caring friend is providing free childcare, they are not your slave. They are doing you a favor.
++++
Feeding my baby formula against my wishes is no favor. Neither would it be okay for them to spank my child, or let them do truly stupid and dangerous things. Just because something is free doesn't mean it's okay to accept crap. If a relative offered 'free' daycare, but refused to respect my wishes about how I want my children treated or fed, then it's not free -- it comes with conditions. Then again, my relationship with my Dad is such that we never give him unsupervised access to any child younger than say 10 or so. My Mom doesn't necessarily with all my choices, but she can be trusted to respect them, as she does with my neices and nephews, who also have their own way of doing things -- different from both my methods and hers.
I don't expect anyone to limit my kids access to things like TV, food or games, and I'm a little less sure about allowing access to things like guns, but I won't have grandparents undermining what I consider to be important choices.
If the 'free' daycare comes with untrustworthy risks, then it's really not free, is it? Everything comes with a price.
Syl
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++++
Feeding my baby formula against my wishes is no favor. Neither would it be okay for them to spank my child, or let them do truly stupid and dangerous things. Just because something is free doesn't mean it's okay to accept crap. If a relative offered 'free' daycare, but refused to respect my wishes about how I want my children treated or fed, then it's not free -- it comes with conditions. Then again, my relationship with my Dad is such that we never give him unsupervised access to any child younger than say 10 or so. My Mom doesn't necessarily with all my choices, but she can be trusted to respect them, as she does with my neices and nephews, who also have their own way of doing things -- different from both my methods and hers.
I don't expect anyone to limit my kids access to things like TV, food or games, and I'm a little less sure about allowing access to things like guns, but I won't have grandparents undermining what I consider to be important choices.
If the 'free' daycare comes with untrustworthy risks, then it's really not free, is it? Everything comes with a price.
Syl
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Sylvia Toyama
So I don't know what practices of other people you're thinking of, but those
who think a kid glancing at a TV is in as much peril as riding with a drunk
just need to keep their kids away from houses where the TV might be on.
Sandra
++++
I'd never equate TV watching with drunk driving. That's why my kids didn't drive anywhere with my brother during his drinking years or with at least one of my aunts. It's why I never left them alone with the step-cousin who molested my younger sister years ago, or even with the uncle who fathered the molester.
I come from varying amounts of dysfunction, some of them soul-toxic if not closely watched. At the same time, we choose to allow our children a relationship with those relatives, if only to give them a fair chance to see how people change and why things are what they are. Will, who's 18, knows why and how my Dad is dangerous, he even knows why and how his own Dad is dangerous, but I'd never prevent him from seeing either of them if he wants. I've even warned him about his paternal grandparents, and when he was too young to have the perspective or skills to protect himself, I kept him from dangerous people, or at least controlled their access to him. As the kids get older, they will meet many people who disagree with our choices. I think it's important for them to see all this while young so they can gain insight and make their own choices.
Syl
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who think a kid glancing at a TV is in as much peril as riding with a drunk
just need to keep their kids away from houses where the TV might be on.
Sandra
++++
I'd never equate TV watching with drunk driving. That's why my kids didn't drive anywhere with my brother during his drinking years or with at least one of my aunts. It's why I never left them alone with the step-cousin who molested my younger sister years ago, or even with the uncle who fathered the molester.
I come from varying amounts of dysfunction, some of them soul-toxic if not closely watched. At the same time, we choose to allow our children a relationship with those relatives, if only to give them a fair chance to see how people change and why things are what they are. Will, who's 18, knows why and how my Dad is dangerous, he even knows why and how his own Dad is dangerous, but I'd never prevent him from seeing either of them if he wants. I've even warned him about his paternal grandparents, and when he was too young to have the perspective or skills to protect himself, I kept him from dangerous people, or at least controlled their access to him. As the kids get older, they will meet many people who disagree with our choices. I think it's important for them to see all this while young so they can gain insight and make their own choices.
Syl
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In a message dated 12/16/03 6:30:15 PM, syltoyama@... writes:
<< Everything comes with a price. >>
Right. And leaving your kids anywhere besides with yourself has a risk and a
price.
I think it's better to deal with your kids, and prepare THEM to make good
choices than to be controlling and then expect other people to control in your
fashion.
I have never MADE any child play a game he didn't want to play, or watch TV
or eat ANYthing. Not my children, not other people's children. If someone
asked me to force their child or prohibit their child I wouldn't. (And I'm not
talking about keeping him from playing on the freeway or letting him eat broken
glass, before anyone comes back with extreme examples.)
Sandra
<< Everything comes with a price. >>
Right. And leaving your kids anywhere besides with yourself has a risk and a
price.
I think it's better to deal with your kids, and prepare THEM to make good
choices than to be controlling and then expect other people to control in your
fashion.
I have never MADE any child play a game he didn't want to play, or watch TV
or eat ANYthing. Not my children, not other people's children. If someone
asked me to force their child or prohibit their child I wouldn't. (And I'm not
talking about keeping him from playing on the freeway or letting him eat broken
glass, before anyone comes back with extreme examples.)
Sandra
joylyn
I think a lot of this boils down to respect and common sense. Lexie's
best friend is an unschooling Greek Orthodox who is also a vegitarian.
When she is at our house, we make sure we have plenty of no meat
choices, when we go out to eat, we make sure we choose a place where she
can get food that she desires. For instance, we were in Vegas, with my
brother and his family, and Hibi, so basically 9 people to feed, all
meat eaters except one. Everyone but that one wanted to go to In and
Out and get hamburgers. So we all stopped and said, Hibi, what could
you eat there? Nothing really, she wasn't in the mood for fries. So...
What else could we do. She remembered that in the hotel there was a
snack shop that had a fruit and vegie with yougart dip and ranch
dressing. So we all went to IN and Out, and then stopped by the hotel
and got that for her and we ate in the room. We respect Hibi's right to
eat what she wishes and she respects our right. If she was a vegan we'd
do the same. They don't do a lot of TV, but they know we watch more at
our house. However, Lexie, in deference to Hibi, and also cause they
are so busy having fun together, watches less tv when Hibi's at our house.
It's about respect. My mother did not, at first, agree with long term
breastfeeding. She thought it made dependent unhealthy children. But
when I told her that was the decision we had made, to self wean Lexie,
she respected that and did not discuss it with the girls. As the girls
grew she changed her mind, but before that change she respected our
rights to raise our children and make our decisions. She's not too keen
on homeschooling (although she's a great fan of Holt and introduced me
to him when I was in high school/college) but she respects our
decision. So I think respect is the key.
The grandma needs to respect the mom's decision to breastfeed and
support her daughter. As children get older they can make their own
decisions, and it becomes more about respecting the individual.
Joylyn
nellebelle wrote:
best friend is an unschooling Greek Orthodox who is also a vegitarian.
When she is at our house, we make sure we have plenty of no meat
choices, when we go out to eat, we make sure we choose a place where she
can get food that she desires. For instance, we were in Vegas, with my
brother and his family, and Hibi, so basically 9 people to feed, all
meat eaters except one. Everyone but that one wanted to go to In and
Out and get hamburgers. So we all stopped and said, Hibi, what could
you eat there? Nothing really, she wasn't in the mood for fries. So...
What else could we do. She remembered that in the hotel there was a
snack shop that had a fruit and vegie with yougart dip and ranch
dressing. So we all went to IN and Out, and then stopped by the hotel
and got that for her and we ate in the room. We respect Hibi's right to
eat what she wishes and she respects our right. If she was a vegan we'd
do the same. They don't do a lot of TV, but they know we watch more at
our house. However, Lexie, in deference to Hibi, and also cause they
are so busy having fun together, watches less tv when Hibi's at our house.
It's about respect. My mother did not, at first, agree with long term
breastfeeding. She thought it made dependent unhealthy children. But
when I told her that was the decision we had made, to self wean Lexie,
she respected that and did not discuss it with the girls. As the girls
grew she changed her mind, but before that change she respected our
rights to raise our children and make our decisions. She's not too keen
on homeschooling (although she's a great fan of Holt and introduced me
to him when I was in high school/college) but she respects our
decision. So I think respect is the key.
The grandma needs to respect the mom's decision to breastfeed and
support her daughter. As children get older they can make their own
decisions, and it becomes more about respecting the individual.
Joylyn
nellebelle wrote:
> I just got off of the phone with my mother. She lives near my brother[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> and babysits frequently for my 8 yo nephew. She babysat this weekend,
> and my sil had told Alek that he couldn't watch TV while at Gramma's.
> (They limit his TV, obviously.) I think it was rude of my sil to
> dictate how they spend their time when my mom is doing her the favor
> of free child care.
>
> I think this relates to this woman's situation, as in, you get what
> you pay for. Maybe she should insist on paying her mother for the
> childcare. Otherwise, she can only request, rather than order, how
> the grandmother cares for the child.
>
> Mary Ellen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Fetteroll
on 12/16/03 8:27 PM, Sylvia Toyama at syltoyama@... wrote:
If the grandparents are asking to see the child, then they should be willing
to bear the burden of the parents' rules for the privilege of seeing the
child.
If the parents are requesting "please take care of my child for free" then
they should find someone whose values are similar enough to the parents.
Otherwise they're asking someone to bear the burden of minding their child
*and* burdening their life with changes to suit the parents.
That's why we pay people like babysitters. We compensate them for that
double burden we're asking of them.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't let someone know about some special
considerations we have. (The only thing that comes right to mind is Kat
doesn't like scary movies.) But I just wouldn't leave Kat with someone if
our values would be a burden beyond the expected discomfort of accomodating
a guest. So I'd choose people who already had similar values or were willing
to make certain accomodations.
In a way you're saying that last bit. You're saying that anyone who watches
your children should be willing to accomodate your wishes. And I think what
people are saying is that we shouldn't expect that. We should choose the
people who are *already* willing to accomodate us, not *expect* someone to
be willing.
Joyce
> Feeding my baby formula against my wishes is no favor. Neither would it beThen why ask them to watch your children?
> okay for them to spank my child, or let them do truly stupid and dangerous
> things. Just because something is free doesn't mean it's okay to accept crap.
If the grandparents are asking to see the child, then they should be willing
to bear the burden of the parents' rules for the privilege of seeing the
child.
If the parents are requesting "please take care of my child for free" then
they should find someone whose values are similar enough to the parents.
Otherwise they're asking someone to bear the burden of minding their child
*and* burdening their life with changes to suit the parents.
That's why we pay people like babysitters. We compensate them for that
double burden we're asking of them.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't let someone know about some special
considerations we have. (The only thing that comes right to mind is Kat
doesn't like scary movies.) But I just wouldn't leave Kat with someone if
our values would be a burden beyond the expected discomfort of accomodating
a guest. So I'd choose people who already had similar values or were willing
to make certain accomodations.
In a way you're saying that last bit. You're saying that anyone who watches
your children should be willing to accomodate your wishes. And I think what
people are saying is that we shouldn't expect that. We should choose the
people who are *already* willing to accomodate us, not *expect* someone to
be willing.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/16/2003 5:12:31 PM Central Standard Time,
mozafamily@... writes:
If you let her
take the child and not do this and let her undermine you in this
case then she will find many more ways to undermine you as the child
gets older as well.
~~~
Yeah, I'm thinking if grandma is willing to undermine bf'ing by giving the
baby a bottle just before pick-up time, or whatever, there's a lot more going on
than just anti-bf'ing. That's manipulative behavior, not just a disagreement
in values. I'm not sure I'd want my kid in that kind of situation to begin
with.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mozafamily@... writes:
If you let her
take the child and not do this and let her undermine you in this
case then she will find many more ways to undermine you as the child
gets older as well.
~~~
Yeah, I'm thinking if grandma is willing to undermine bf'ing by giving the
baby a bottle just before pick-up time, or whatever, there's a lot more going on
than just anti-bf'ing. That's manipulative behavior, not just a disagreement
in values. I'm not sure I'd want my kid in that kind of situation to begin
with.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/17/2003 6:30:51 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
If the parents are requesting "please take care of my child for free" then
they should find someone whose values are similar enough to the parents.
Otherwise they're asking someone to bear the burden of minding their child
*and* burdening their life with changes to suit the parents.
~~~
But shouldn't it be decided on what's in the best interest of the child, with
some compromise for convenience, etc.? The parents should get to decide
what's in the best interest of their child, and then they should make it as
convenient as possible for the caregiver to meet that expectation. If that
expectation can't be met with this particular caregiver, than someone else should be
found.
I'd expect a grandmother to be willing to look at things from the child's
perspective, with their best interest at heart. Not exerting their will over
their own daughter, or whatever. If that can't happen, then I wouldn't leave my
child with that grandmother. I don't leave my son with his grandparents
because they are willing to spank him, even though he's the only one of their
grandchildren that never "needs" a spanking. They spank the other grandchildren
with the blessing of their parents. They are not the right caregivers for my
son, even though they would gladly and willingly do it for free, forever, and
are generally benign except for the spanking.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
If the parents are requesting "please take care of my child for free" then
they should find someone whose values are similar enough to the parents.
Otherwise they're asking someone to bear the burden of minding their child
*and* burdening their life with changes to suit the parents.
~~~
But shouldn't it be decided on what's in the best interest of the child, with
some compromise for convenience, etc.? The parents should get to decide
what's in the best interest of their child, and then they should make it as
convenient as possible for the caregiver to meet that expectation. If that
expectation can't be met with this particular caregiver, than someone else should be
found.
I'd expect a grandmother to be willing to look at things from the child's
perspective, with their best interest at heart. Not exerting their will over
their own daughter, or whatever. If that can't happen, then I wouldn't leave my
child with that grandmother. I don't leave my son with his grandparents
because they are willing to spank him, even though he's the only one of their
grandchildren that never "needs" a spanking. They spank the other grandchildren
with the blessing of their parents. They are not the right caregivers for my
son, even though they would gladly and willingly do it for free, forever, and
are generally benign except for the spanking.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Coyote's Corner
Hi,
My daughter is 32 y.o.
When she was 8 y.o.; I had to go out of town on business. My ex-mil took my daughter; my mom & dad took my son. My ex mil really, really wanted to spend the day w/ Channa. BTW- it was a Saturday.
I got home around 6 PM. My son was home by 6:30 PM
Channa got home - at mil's whim - 9:30.
That wasn't the worse - Channa's hair had been cut, permed and lightened.
To that point - her hair had been trimmed.
It was gone - very, very short - very frizzy - very blondish.
She was 8!!!
Needless to say...I never let my kids go w/ any of my ex in laws again.
However - my ex-mil had started when Channa was a baby - she refused to consider breast feeding - she put a bug in my husbands ear - and he argued w/ me about the fact that his mom was uncomfortable bottle feeding my daughter my breast milk.
I think that although the child care is "free" - it's not worth it.
I don't know your circumstances - but I know this - I never "got" my daughter back - from that day to this.....she had found out that she didn't have to consult me - our life together became a battle. Today, we have no relationship at all.
you have to look at the whole situation....do you really need to work outside the house?
Can you work while your husband is at home?
Believe me, I know it's hard....Brianna & I live day to day...but we are together.
I have learned the hard way....
once someone is with your child - they are in charge.
They can do whatever they want.
Good luck.
Janis
My daughter is 32 y.o.
When she was 8 y.o.; I had to go out of town on business. My ex-mil took my daughter; my mom & dad took my son. My ex mil really, really wanted to spend the day w/ Channa. BTW- it was a Saturday.
I got home around 6 PM. My son was home by 6:30 PM
Channa got home - at mil's whim - 9:30.
That wasn't the worse - Channa's hair had been cut, permed and lightened.
To that point - her hair had been trimmed.
It was gone - very, very short - very frizzy - very blondish.
She was 8!!!
Needless to say...I never let my kids go w/ any of my ex in laws again.
However - my ex-mil had started when Channa was a baby - she refused to consider breast feeding - she put a bug in my husbands ear - and he argued w/ me about the fact that his mom was uncomfortable bottle feeding my daughter my breast milk.
I think that although the child care is "free" - it's not worth it.
I don't know your circumstances - but I know this - I never "got" my daughter back - from that day to this.....she had found out that she didn't have to consult me - our life together became a battle. Today, we have no relationship at all.
you have to look at the whole situation....do you really need to work outside the house?
Can you work while your husband is at home?
Believe me, I know it's hard....Brianna & I live day to day...but we are together.
I have learned the hard way....
once someone is with your child - they are in charge.
They can do whatever they want.
Good luck.
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: Sylvia Toyama
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] New Beginnings/Making It Work Help
If a loving relative or caring friend is providing free childcare, they are not your slave. They are doing you a favor.
++++
Feeding my baby formula against my wishes is no favor. Neither would it be okay for them to spank my child, or let them do truly stupid and dangerous things. Just because something is free doesn't mean it's okay to accept crap. If a relative offered 'free' daycare, but refused to respect my wishes about how I want my children treated or fed, then it's not free -- it comes with conditions. Then again, my relationship with my Dad is such that we never give him unsupervised access to any child younger than say 10 or so. My Mom doesn't necessarily with all my choices, but she can be trusted to respect them, as she does with my neices and nephews, who also have their own way of doing things -- different from both my methods and hers.
I don't expect anyone to limit my kids access to things like TV, food or games, and I'm a little less sure about allowing access to things like guns, but I won't have grandparents undermining what I consider to be important choices.
If the 'free' daycare comes with untrustworthy risks, then it's really not free, is it? Everything comes with a price.
Syl
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In a message dated 12/17/03 6:58:19 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< The parents should get to decide
what's in the best interest of their child, and then they should make it as
convenient as possible for the caregiver to meet that expectation. If that
expectation can't be met with this particular caregiver, than someone else
should be
found. >>
I have friends whose son can't have milk, and when he comes to stay he brings
his own soymilk. I like him, and I would probably be willing to go and buy
him soymilk if he were staying more than one meal, but if they SAID to me
"Here's Vincent, and be sure and get some soymilk," that would be tacky, wouldn't
it?
When my kids were little we were in a babysitting co-op in which the core and
founding members were La Leche League leaders and the others were hand-picked
and invited by the current members. Only twice were there families in that
co-op that I objected to or didn't trust. The rest were homogenous in belief
to the point that I didn't worry at all. And I've always since the kids could
communicate helped them with what to say or do if I wasnt there and they
wanted to opt out of an activity or a food. We practiced and discussed how to do
it politely and firmly and keep the friendship. We watched and discussed ways
others did it that they didn't want to emulate.
I could have tried sculpting the world around them so that they never had to
object or demur, but I'd rather prepare them for the world than prepare the
world for them.
Sandra
<< The parents should get to decide
what's in the best interest of their child, and then they should make it as
convenient as possible for the caregiver to meet that expectation. If that
expectation can't be met with this particular caregiver, than someone else
should be
found. >>
I have friends whose son can't have milk, and when he comes to stay he brings
his own soymilk. I like him, and I would probably be willing to go and buy
him soymilk if he were staying more than one meal, but if they SAID to me
"Here's Vincent, and be sure and get some soymilk," that would be tacky, wouldn't
it?
When my kids were little we were in a babysitting co-op in which the core and
founding members were La Leche League leaders and the others were hand-picked
and invited by the current members. Only twice were there families in that
co-op that I objected to or didn't trust. The rest were homogenous in belief
to the point that I didn't worry at all. And I've always since the kids could
communicate helped them with what to say or do if I wasnt there and they
wanted to opt out of an activity or a food. We practiced and discussed how to do
it politely and firmly and keep the friendship. We watched and discussed ways
others did it that they didn't want to emulate.
I could have tried sculpting the world around them so that they never had to
object or demur, but I'd rather prepare them for the world than prepare the
world for them.
Sandra