Nicole

I am so happy to see that Sandra is on this list! I am a fellow John
Holt fan, but no less a Sandra Dodd fan. Any of you who haven't met
her or heard her speak are missing out! I met her and Holly at a
small conference last year here in Albuquerque when I was first
introduced to the idea of unschooling. Our family had been
unschooling for a year instinctively but had never heard the word!

Sandra offered great support and encouragement, as I was facing a lot
of pressure from my mother at the time. I would like to say thank
you.

By the way, who else is in New Mexico?

Sylvia Toyama

Hi Nicole,

We're in Albuquerque.

Sylvia


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[email protected]

In a message dated 11/16/03 1:38:02 AM, fenom70@... writes:

<< Sandra offered great support and encouragement, as I was facing a lot

of pressure from my mother at the time. I would like to say thank

you. >>

Good!
I'm glad something I said helped.

There's a small unschooling list set up for New Mexico and southern Colorado.
I did the list but was really hoping someone(s) else would have a bout of
organizational fervor and get us something going locally. It's not too late. <g>

And I wouldn't mind more activity on that list a bit, if you'd like to join
it.

[email protected]

Welcome to this list, which is also relatively quiet (but not THAT quiet).

Other more booming-business (and slightly more dangerous) places I post
regularly are the message board at www.unschooling.com and
[email protected]

I also have a steadily growing collection of stuff collected in a maze of
pages which can start here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
or here:
http://sandradodd.com/life

or just sandradodd.com

Those have been fun to do. They don't match, and nobody will ever hire me to
do a webpage for them (good, because I don't want the responsibility anyway),
but for lack of flash, they still do have some good information, because I
try to swipe from the best. Many of the pages, like reading and math, are
mostly quotes and articles from other unschoolers.

I haven't read e-mail for many hours, having had company (another
homeschooling family is having marital problems and the kids chose to camp out here for a
while) and a party Friday night (good party, and exhausting--we played games
mostly run by Kirby and Marty, though it was an birthday party for an adult
friend of ours). So I'll read more mail and maybe think of something new and
clever to bring to this list.

Sandra

Norma

--- In [email protected], "Nicole" <fenom70@y...> wrote:
<>By the way, who else is in New Mexico?<>

We're not, but wish we were, miss it every day. Hunkered down in
Ohio. What's good about Ohio? Hmmmmmmm? Besides the long period of
grey skies, mold and mildew to let, weather that changes radically
from day to day, moment to moment, no solar snow removal, tornadoes
(one hit in '99 just blocks from our house turning brick houses into
brick dust!), floods, streets that wind all over the place (much
worse than Santa Fe), and that change names every so many blocks to
be sure you don't know where you are (no mountains to guide you), and
Cincinnati being the second most popular place for Dubya to come for
campaign funding?

Okay. What's good about it is a large homeschooling population, of
all varieties, oodles of great community-based learning resources,
and dozens of ice surfaces within two hours drive (which is what
brought us here in the first place). But we will be back in New
Mexico! We have not been won over by the Queen City, far prefer the
Duke City. Plan to be back to visit the Appleturkey in March.

Norma

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/16/03 10:56:26 AM, athomeopathy@... writes:

<< Plan to be back to visit the Appleturkey in March. >>

Just in time for sand storms.

<<you don't know where you are (no mountains to guide you)>>

I feel lost in flat places. Especially when sometimes you can't even see the
sun or moon because of humidity.

<<mold and mildew . . .no solar snow removal>>

foreign mysteries


Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/16/2003 11:56:26 AM Central Standard Time,
athomeopathy@... writes:
and that change names every so many blocks to
be sure you don't know where you are (no mountains to guide you),
~~~
Gee, I just don't know how people from Ohio have been getting around all this
time with NO mountains!

heehee.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/16/03 4:25:37 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:

<< Gee, I just don't know how people from Ohio have been getting around all
this
time with NO mountains! >>

They just don't know there's an easier way.
(And those who know the easier way can't easily learn the harder way!)

Sandra

aicitticia

I always think of when I met Sandra and she left some great lasting
impressions on me too.

I heard Sandra speak at the Bayshore conference in Long Beach, CA. I
was first impressed with her respectfulness to the kids who asked
questions. Joylyn's daughter Lexie was mostly devouring a Harry
Potter book while Sandra was speaking, but piped up with some
questions and comments which Sandra addressed without overlooking
her. I liked that.

Then I remember (everytime I do laundry in fact) her analogy on
leaving wet clothes in the washing machine. It went something like:
What happens when you leave wet clothes in the washing machine and
she answered her own question...nothing...well at my house, that
is..they are actually pretty dry by the next day. But I hear in
California they are all smelly the next day and mildew in even more
humid states.

When I type it all out and re-read it it seems kind of silly, but it
made me think more deeply on some of my own absolute kind of
thinking and how there isn't always one answer or even two. Mostly
it has made me take my children's requests more seriously and to
look at things from their eyes rather then my own. This was/is
important to me and is a constant internal dialogue.

I just have always liked this line of thinking...more global, not so
black and white so to speak.

Just thought I'd share.
Ticia

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/16/03 7:39:19 PM, ticiamama@... writes:

<< nothing...well at my house, that

is..they are actually pretty dry by the next day. >>

Dry like ROCKS, shaped just like they landed. <g>

Thanks for the kind words. I remember that day! I was hoarse and woozy
sick, wasn't I?

<<Joylyn's daughter Lexie was mostly devouring a Harry

Potter book while Sandra was speaking, but piped up with some

questions and comments which Sandra addressed without overlooking

her.>>

Hey, she was close enough to kick me, and she's athletic! I better not
overlook her! <g>

<<When I type it all out and re-read it it seems kind of silly, but it

made me think more deeply on some of my own absolute kind of

thinking and how there isn't always one answer or even two.>>

My now-on-newstands column in Home Education Magazine this month is about
that. It's called "Balancing in the Middle Ground," and it's on the HEM website.

(Sorry if I've already brought that link here. Not trying to show off, it's
just that it's been a well received column and it's about avoiding absolute
thinking in extremes.)

http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/206/ndunschool.html

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

on 11/16/03 6:58 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> My now-on-newstands column in Home Education Magazine this month is about
> that. It's called "Balancing in the Middle Ground," and it's on the HEM
> website.

I watched the film, "Little Buddha," on TV this morning. The moment in
which Siddartha recognizes the path he should follow is contained in a scene
where he hears a musician say the string on his instrument must be just taut
enough: too slack, and it will not play; too tight, and it will break.

I have the HEM issue, but haven't read the article yet :-)

Nancy


--
In times of change, learners inherit the Earth, while the learned find
themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.
- Eric Hoffer

Norma

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/16/2003 11:56:26 AM Central Standard Time,
> athomeopathy@h... writes:
> and that change names every so many blocks to
> be sure you don't know where you are (no mountains to guide you),
> ~~~
> Gee, I just don't know how people from Ohio have been getting
around all this
> time with NO mountains!
>
> heehee.
>
> Tuck

Well, in southwestern Ohio (Cincinnati) they have Seven Hills, little
hills, intertwined with lots of rivers. These hills only succeed in
interrupting one's view enough so that getting anywhere is a guessing
game, at best. Maps sometimes help, but not always. Whenever we
start out for somewhere new we say we are going on an "adventure."
That way it doesn't really matter if we never find what we were
looking for. We print out our Yahoo! maps and head out.

After six years here we started off for a new ice rink the other
night, for figure skating ice, and spent 1-1/2 hours wandering
around, asking at gas stations and Walgreen's to no avail. I mean,
you'd think it would be hard to hide an ice arena! But the way the
roads are designed contributes greatly to the maze effect. Finally we
arrived near the end of the skate session, frustrated. One of the
other moms totally sympathized with us, told us she had done the same
thing her first time at this huge old arena. And she had lived here
all her life!

At one time Cincinnati was trying to hype having the Olympics here,
had a big group raising funds to make that happen. I got wind of
this and sent off a letter to the editor asking if they were trying
to start World War III. There would be so many foreign nationals
wandering around, unable to find the Olympic venues, or their hotels,
or restaurants, that surely an international incident would erupt!

What I have learned is that lots of folks who live here never really
leave their own little neighborhoods, never venture very far from
where they feel secure. That would be like the South Valley folks
never venturing to Winrock or Corrales folks never leaving the North
Valley. As newbies here, and unschoolers, we made a habit of taking
off on "adventures," usually with some specific vector in mind, but
often ending up somewhere else entirely. Consequently we have
learned to get around pretty well, better than many locals, at
least. And we have discovered lots of neat little hidden resources,
like the Russian store where one can buy all things Russian, and the
little Mexican place called Miscellaneous Rodriguez where we can get
some of our favorite foods. Or the little tobacco store we stumbled
on that has great empty wooden cigar boxes for sale for a dollar or
two for lots of neat projects. This is great fun when you have the
time and aren't worried about getting somewhere for something.
Otherwise it is pure aggravation. I keep seeing Albuquerque as we
used to come in from the mountains (lived in Cedar Crest for 27
years) or as it looks arriving on I-40 from the west. So much easier
to get around out there!

Norma

Norma

--- In [email protected], "aicitticia" <ticiamama@h...>
wrote:
> Then I remember (everytime I do laundry in fact) her analogy on
> leaving wet clothes in the washing machine. It went something like:
> What happens when you leave wet clothes in the washing machine and
> she answered her own question...nothing...well at my house, that
> is..they are actually pretty dry by the next day. But I hear in
> California they are all smelly the next day and mildew in even more
> humid states.

LOL! In Cincinnati we call leaving the laundry overnight a "science
experiment"! Never know what lethal form of mold or mildew will be
growing there next morning. Even hanging clothes out can net strange
results here.

Norma

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/17/03 6:55:34 AM, athomeopathy@... writes:

<< What I have learned is that lots of folks who live here never really

leave their own little neighborhoods, never venture very far from

where they feel secure. That would be like the South Valley folks

never venturing to Winrock or Corrales folks never leaving the North

Valley. >>

I think there are some people like that.

I've heard there are people who live in New York City who have never seen the
Statue of Liberty, and who have never driven a car, and some who've never
even BEEN in a car.

Carlsbad Caverns, I didn't see until I was 28 or so, and we had relatives in
Carlsbad we visited. But they'd all been, and my parents had been, and they
figured "next time."

I do my best touristing when I have out of town guests who want to go to
Santa Fe or see a mountain from the top end. <g>

That view of Albuquerque from Nine Mile Hill, coming in from the West is SUCH
a welcome sight sometimes. ANY lights are welcom sometimes.

A week ago Saturday, Keith's car broke down 6 mile north of Cuba (N.Mex.)
which is almost to Farmington, which is almost to Utah. Marty and I left at
8:30 to pick him up at a convenience store (which was going to close at 10:00).

I don't drive so well in the dark, and I was already tired, so I got Marty to
go with me to keep me awake, even though he was going to miss hanging out
with his friend Brett to do it.

I nearly hit a deer.

I had written down mile marker 12, and it was 112.

I was trying not to be a nervous adrenaline-loaded wreck when we found the
place and Keith was sitting huddled in the cold. He had walked six miles (in
his medieval boots) to find a phone. He hadn't taken his glasses with him, so
he couldn't even buy a newspaper to have something to read. He had waited two
and a half hours.

He drove until Marty had to say "Dad!" to keep him from going off the road.
That woke me up (and the adrenaline came back) and I chipperly offered to
drive and let Keith sleep. He was snoring before I pulled back on the road and
whispered to Marty "Get me a Dr Pepper."

Even coming in from the north, and getting off at the Tramway exit, I was
thrilled to see all those too-many lights and roads.

But from the west, the whole town looks like an aerial map and you can just
point at where you're headed. People get used to such things. <g>

Sandra

Norma

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
<>He drove until Marty had to say "Dad!" to keep him from going off
the road. That woke me up (and the adrenaline came back) and I
chipperly offered to drive and let Keith sleep. He was snoring
before I pulled back on the road and whispered to Marty "Get me a Dr
Pepper."<>

My husband worked at the State Pen near Santa Fe and there was many a
night when he said that whole stretches of that twisty-turny route
just disappeared. He'd have no memory of driving them, but somehow
he always made it home alive. Nothing short of a miracle after 16-24
hour mandatory overtime stints

There's something very hypnotic about driving in NM, perhaps the
openness. Here it's just the opposite. Every stretch between exits
is filled with heart-stopping insanity! Is it any wonder that my 16-
year-old is vacillating about learning to drive? We get up early on
Sunday mornings and head for big parking lots to get her started.
But road driving may be best left up to the professionals here. Let
them take the risk and the high anxiety. She wants the freedom, but
fears the crazy traffic. She will work it out, I'm sure.

Norma

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/17/2003 7:55:34 AM Central Standard Time,
athomeopathy@... writes:
So much easier
to get around out there!
~~~

I tried to make light of it when I point it out, but I guess I'll just have
to go ahead and say it right out.

What you basically said was that people in Ohio isolated themselves because
it was too hard to get around without mountains. I just kinda find this
attitude arrogant and insulting. I'm not from Ohio, btw.

I navigate by bodies of water that I can't even see 80% of the time and the
slant of the sun and landmarks that I know, and the direction I just came. I
do this in Ohio, Florida, California, Arkansas, Tennessee, Texas, St. Croix and
lots of other places and wherever I've been. What if I said, it's harder to
do it that way, so I guess that makes people without mountains more adaptive
and intelligent than people with mountains.

See how ridiculous that thinking is? Maybe you should reframe your stance
about lack of mountains into the attitude that most newcomers and non-natives
have about their area--that of not understanding how it's done in the new area
or pining away for the "better" things and ways of home. Maybe it's not lack
of mountains to navigate by, but a natural longing for the familiarity of what
you had, and what was "easier" because you knew it from birth.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/17/03 12:12:24 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:

<< What you basically said was that people in Ohio isolated themselves
because
it was too hard to get around without mountains. I just kinda find this
attitude arrogant and insulting. >>

There are places where people don't have to drive very far and so they don't.
It would be kinda crazy.

There are places, like New Mexico, where the population is so sparsely spread
over such a huge area that if you want to do things or get together with
people, you HAVE to drive a long way, and so people dno't think it's that big a
deal.

Because people have moved here from other places and commented on it, I know
it's unusual in much of the country.

I have to drive three hours to see my sister. It used to be only two hours.
That's only really two towns away. We still have to pass through the
two-hour town now, and we pass through two REALLY small towns, Abiquiu and Tierra
Amarilla to get to Brazos, which isn't really a town.

For Thanksgiving we'll drive four hours to get to Alamogordo. We won't pass
through another large town at all. Places with one business which might not
be open. Corona. Carizozo. There are two turns in all that 200+ miles that
we have to take to get to Alamogordo.

There are places where the road's high enough you can see the road for 50
miles ahead of you. We can tell we're making progress because mountains appear,
loom larger, and eventually disappear behind us. Otherwise, it's the same
barbed wire fences and the same cholla cactus with a few cows and a windmill for
a long, long time without anything but mountains to break up the monotony.

<<What if I said, it's harder to
do it that way, so I guess that makd thing to say, but I doubt people would
jump on you about it.

<<See how ridiculous that thinking is? Maybe you should reframe your stance
about lack of mountains into the attitude that most newcomers and non-natives
have about their area--that of not understanding how it's done in the new
area
or pining away for the "better" things and ways of home. Maybe it's not lack
of mountains to navigate by, but a natural longing for the familiarity of
what
you had, and what was "easier" because you knew it from birth. >>

Could be some ofthose things, but it doesn't make it ridiculous. I think it
was friendly humor rather than serious commentary.

Sandra

Norma

Tuck:

No need to reframe. It is easier with mountains, at least mountains
like there are in Albuquerque, where the mountains form a clear
border to the east rising almost another mile above the city. So you
always know where east is. And they stick up nice and high above
everything else, since Albuquerque is built on a flood plain. Plus
Albuquerque is laid out on a nice grid system with streets labeled by
quadrants, NE, SE, NW, SW. Very easy to get around. In addition the
normally clear skies allow you to see those mountains 99% of the
time.

I can't really say why people don't get around much in Cincinnati.
But I meet people all the time who just don't get far from their home
turf. Neighborhoods are very divided here, very separate. And you
must have a car here, since mass transit is nearly non-existant, and
grocery stores are not very convenient. But I do know that streets
that change names all the time, and lots of missing signs contribute
to the confusion. I meet lots of homeschoolers who determine what
they will do solely on how close it is to home. Not that I blame
them because traffic can be a killer around here. But that is true
in lots of places.

You said: <>What you basically said was that people in Ohio isolated
themselves because it was too hard to get around without mountains. I
just kinda find this attitude arrogant and insulting. I'm not from
Ohio, btw.<>

I do not need other people translating what I said. I said that *I*
find it more difficult to get around without mountains. And without
a grid system. And without street signs. And with streets that
constantly change names. What happens to anyone else is not my
problem, just that people I meet here say they don't seem to get
around much here.

You said: <>What if I said, it's harder to do it that way, so I
guess that makes people without mountains more adaptive and
intelligent than people with mountains.<>

And you might be right! At least relating to that particular kind of
intelligence. Like rats who run complex mazes. I simply do not like
to spend so much of my time figuring out the maze. I would rather be
doing other things. I'm a pretty good navigator. I have traveled
around a good percentage of the world and navigated just fine, though
never by boat, at least not for a long journey. But I find
Cincinnati to be one of the most confusing cities. Could very well
be my personal failing, for I do prefer mountains. I also know of
folks in NYC who found themselves disoriented when the WTC towers
were gone, because they used them, much like mountains, to help them
navigate that city. But I grew up, learned to drive and navigate, in
Detroit. And some folks think that is a very difficult city to get
around. But it is an auto city, designed for the car.

You transmitted: <>Maybe you should reframe your stance about lack
of mountains into the attitude that most newcomers and non-natives
have about their area--that of not understanding how it's done in the
new area or pining away for the "better" things and ways of home.<>

New Mexico was "home" for 27 years, but the 26 before that I lived in
my native state, Michigan. I navigated just fine there, but still
prefer Albuquerque.

<>Maybe it's not lack of mountains to navigate by, but a natural
longing for the familiarity of what you had, and what was "easier"
because you knew it from birth.<>

Definitely longing for what was easier. Why not? I do not enjoy
driving around in circles, wasting time and gas, especially at
today's gas prices. Especially at night when "adventuring" can get
dicey at times. I just think that Albuquerque, despite its problems,
is a better planned city. Cincinnati, a city originally settled by
carpetbaggers and slave traders and other assorted scoundrels, is on
the other hand, predominantly controlled by the interests of certain
corporations whose home offices are located here. What does and what
does not happen here is often determined by whether it will serve
their corporate interests. And the taxpayers end up paying for it.
I know that happens elsewhere, too. But it is annoying. Exits on
the highways are determined by how well they will work for certain
corporate entities. If you get off the freeway along certain long
urban stretches you will not be able to get back on. Because these
exits were not designed for anyone else but those who work at or are
delivering goods to the corporations whose plants are located near
those exits. Pity the poor tourist who loops off and then finds him
or herself wandering around significantly lost.

<>See how ridiculous that thinking is?<>

One person's ridiculous is another person's opus or chef d'oeuvre,
or, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,"
(Emerson). To each his or her own. I don't feel the need to insult
anyone to express my opinion. I like Albuqerque. It is a friendly
city, I think. Cincinnati is, generally, not. Much more racist,
very "neighborhood," very economically segregated. The terrain here
and the roads that access it have been designed to keep that kind of
separation going, most successfully, too. My opinion. That's all.

Norma

scookeafan

Norma wrote:

> And we have discovered lots of neat little hidden resources,
> like the Russian store where one can buy all things Russian, and the
> little Mexican place called Miscellaneous Rodriguez where we can get
> some of our favorite foods. Or the little tobacco store we stumbled
> on that has great empty wooden cigar boxes for sale for a dollar or
> two for lots of neat projects.

Norma,

Would you mind posting the name and addresses (or at least area of
Cincinnati) of the Russian store and the tobacco store?

Thanks,
Sherry