"super teachers"
Angela Lofton
I just found this article. Do they really think more money will make better teachers?
http://www.sites4teachers.com/links/redirect.php?url=http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/4129828.html
Pawlenty pitches paying 'super teachers' up to $100,000
James Walsh, Star Tribune
Published October 2, 2003 SUPE02
Will paying "super teachers" as much as $100,000 a year at the state's most challenged schools make students learn better? Will making it easier for educated professionals to become teachers do the trick? Gov. Tim Pawlenty, in a multipronged initiative announced Wednesday, said he is willing to give it a go.
Minnesota students still are among the tops in the country on test scores, but the achievement gap between black and white students is among the widest. Pawlenty said more must be done.
"We have to try something," he said. "Right now, we have school sites that are failing. And it's not the teachers' fault and it's not the principals' fault. But those are the outcomes, and they're failing."
The governor's plan would pump millions in additional money into a handful of pilot projects around the state to see if basing teachers' pay on their students' performance pays off.
The first and perhaps most dramatic part of the plan would be to create "super teachers" at five Minnesota schools.
Principals of those schools would have sweeping authority to recruit, hire and fire teachers outside of normal union contracts and tenure rules, Pawlenty said. In exchange, teachers at those schools would be eligible for bonuses of $20,000 to $40,000, based on their performance and student achievement. The program, which would cost $2.5 million to $5 million in new funding per year, would target those schools that serve large numbers of disadvantaged students and have struggled to raise test scores.
Under this program, Pawlenty said, "All the rules are off as to who's working there. And in exchange for your coming, you have a shot to make $100,000."
Pawlenty said he recognizes that parents play the biggest role in student achievement and that many struggling schools suffer from high student poverty and low parental involvement. But teachers play the next biggest part in student achievement, he said.
By creating the five "super teacher" sites, schools can attract the sharpest teachers to work with the most struggling students. Schools with poor outcomes are working to improve, he said, "But they're nibbling around the edges and not making a big difference."
When asked if he thought teachers unions might oppose giving principals the authority to essentially start from scratch at those schools, Pawlenty said, "This is a way to demonstrate whether by paying teachers more -- in some cases dramatically more -- that we can retain the best and the brightest to benefit children. How could you be opposed to that?"
Money and more
Other aspects of the initiative:
. Attract new teachers. Make it easier for professionals from other fields, particularly math and science, to get into teaching. The state Department of Education would create an alternate licensing program to streamline and shorten the training period that educated professionals would need to enter the classroom. The department would have the power to accredit alternate training programs. Officials said the state also will begin issuing report cards on how well private and public universities train teachers for the classroom.
. Retain good teachers. Establish a new pay-for-performance program at seven pilot schools that would reward teachers with bonuses based on increased student achievement. The state would use $7.8 million in federal grant money to fund this program, as well as create an online database of lesson plans for teachers and develop a mentor program to support new teachers. The plan would also guarantee that teachers are assigned to classrooms before the start of the school year and prohibit interschool transfers during the year.
The "super teachers" and pay-for-performance pilot projects would be in addition to a current alternative compensation pilot program at five sites around the state. Education Commissioner Cheri Pierson Yecke said having three different projects going at 17 sites across Minnesota will give officials the kind of data they need to study how compensation affects student performance.
"It will be a good, rich pool for evaluation," Yecke said.
But state Rep. Mindy Greiling, DFL-Roseville, called the money for alternative compensation "chump change" when compared to the $180 million that was cut from education funding last year.
"I think it's trying to camouflage what's really going on in the schools," she said, noting that more than 75 Minnesota school districts are proposing excess-levy referendums to make up for state funding they lost in the last legislative session. While Greiling said the "super teacher" program is interesting, there certainly are more than five Minnesota schools facing huge challenges.
Hopes for support
State Rep. Barb Sykora, R-Deephaven, chairwoman of the House education policy committee, said she thinks the Legislature will support the plan as a way to study what really makes a difference for students.
"The bottom line is: We're here to educate kids," she said. She said she hopes the teachers unions see this as an opportunity for their members to grow.
Judy Schaubach, president of Education Minnesota, said the teachers union shares the governor's goals of getting more teachers and getting them into the most challenged schools. And they share a desire to improve compensation, she said.
"But there are a lot of issues that need to be talked through," she said, including just what it means to be a "super teacher."
And, while getting professionals to become teachers is a good goal, Schaubach said, "We feel strongly that we not lower our standards. We'll do a disservice to kids if we don't ensure that teachers have the best preparation."
Pawlenty said the "super teacher" program, which would be among the first in the nation, will be a bold step toward closing the achievement gap between disadvantaged and minority students and white students in Minnesota. Arguments for increased overall education funding miss the mark, he said. The gap has been widening over the past 10 years, regardless of how much money schools are spending.
He pointed at Minneapolis as an example.
The district, he said, spends more than $10,000 per pupil per year. Yet the district's four-year graduation rate was 46 percent -- and just 26 percent for black students.
"Those outcomes are unacceptable," he said.
Dave Heistad, director of testing, evaluation and student information for the Minneapolis schools, disputed the governor's data. Under new federal rules, he said Minneapolis' four-year graduation rate in 2002 was 57 percent -- 78 percent when counting just the students who attend the city's seven regular high schools.
While the governor said that he understands that the Minneapolis schools cannot control the poverty of their families or the readiness of their new students to learn, focusing funding on results could have a dramatic effect.
If the pilot projects work, Pawlenty said, "I think it opens the door to the whole discussion about how we pay teachers."
James Walsh is at jwalsh@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://www.sites4teachers.com/links/redirect.php?url=http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/4129828.html
Pawlenty pitches paying 'super teachers' up to $100,000
James Walsh, Star Tribune
Published October 2, 2003 SUPE02
Will paying "super teachers" as much as $100,000 a year at the state's most challenged schools make students learn better? Will making it easier for educated professionals to become teachers do the trick? Gov. Tim Pawlenty, in a multipronged initiative announced Wednesday, said he is willing to give it a go.
Minnesota students still are among the tops in the country on test scores, but the achievement gap between black and white students is among the widest. Pawlenty said more must be done.
"We have to try something," he said. "Right now, we have school sites that are failing. And it's not the teachers' fault and it's not the principals' fault. But those are the outcomes, and they're failing."
The governor's plan would pump millions in additional money into a handful of pilot projects around the state to see if basing teachers' pay on their students' performance pays off.
The first and perhaps most dramatic part of the plan would be to create "super teachers" at five Minnesota schools.
Principals of those schools would have sweeping authority to recruit, hire and fire teachers outside of normal union contracts and tenure rules, Pawlenty said. In exchange, teachers at those schools would be eligible for bonuses of $20,000 to $40,000, based on their performance and student achievement. The program, which would cost $2.5 million to $5 million in new funding per year, would target those schools that serve large numbers of disadvantaged students and have struggled to raise test scores.
Under this program, Pawlenty said, "All the rules are off as to who's working there. And in exchange for your coming, you have a shot to make $100,000."
Pawlenty said he recognizes that parents play the biggest role in student achievement and that many struggling schools suffer from high student poverty and low parental involvement. But teachers play the next biggest part in student achievement, he said.
By creating the five "super teacher" sites, schools can attract the sharpest teachers to work with the most struggling students. Schools with poor outcomes are working to improve, he said, "But they're nibbling around the edges and not making a big difference."
When asked if he thought teachers unions might oppose giving principals the authority to essentially start from scratch at those schools, Pawlenty said, "This is a way to demonstrate whether by paying teachers more -- in some cases dramatically more -- that we can retain the best and the brightest to benefit children. How could you be opposed to that?"
Money and more
Other aspects of the initiative:
. Attract new teachers. Make it easier for professionals from other fields, particularly math and science, to get into teaching. The state Department of Education would create an alternate licensing program to streamline and shorten the training period that educated professionals would need to enter the classroom. The department would have the power to accredit alternate training programs. Officials said the state also will begin issuing report cards on how well private and public universities train teachers for the classroom.
. Retain good teachers. Establish a new pay-for-performance program at seven pilot schools that would reward teachers with bonuses based on increased student achievement. The state would use $7.8 million in federal grant money to fund this program, as well as create an online database of lesson plans for teachers and develop a mentor program to support new teachers. The plan would also guarantee that teachers are assigned to classrooms before the start of the school year and prohibit interschool transfers during the year.
The "super teachers" and pay-for-performance pilot projects would be in addition to a current alternative compensation pilot program at five sites around the state. Education Commissioner Cheri Pierson Yecke said having three different projects going at 17 sites across Minnesota will give officials the kind of data they need to study how compensation affects student performance.
"It will be a good, rich pool for evaluation," Yecke said.
But state Rep. Mindy Greiling, DFL-Roseville, called the money for alternative compensation "chump change" when compared to the $180 million that was cut from education funding last year.
"I think it's trying to camouflage what's really going on in the schools," she said, noting that more than 75 Minnesota school districts are proposing excess-levy referendums to make up for state funding they lost in the last legislative session. While Greiling said the "super teacher" program is interesting, there certainly are more than five Minnesota schools facing huge challenges.
Hopes for support
State Rep. Barb Sykora, R-Deephaven, chairwoman of the House education policy committee, said she thinks the Legislature will support the plan as a way to study what really makes a difference for students.
"The bottom line is: We're here to educate kids," she said. She said she hopes the teachers unions see this as an opportunity for their members to grow.
Judy Schaubach, president of Education Minnesota, said the teachers union shares the governor's goals of getting more teachers and getting them into the most challenged schools. And they share a desire to improve compensation, she said.
"But there are a lot of issues that need to be talked through," she said, including just what it means to be a "super teacher."
And, while getting professionals to become teachers is a good goal, Schaubach said, "We feel strongly that we not lower our standards. We'll do a disservice to kids if we don't ensure that teachers have the best preparation."
Pawlenty said the "super teacher" program, which would be among the first in the nation, will be a bold step toward closing the achievement gap between disadvantaged and minority students and white students in Minnesota. Arguments for increased overall education funding miss the mark, he said. The gap has been widening over the past 10 years, regardless of how much money schools are spending.
He pointed at Minneapolis as an example.
The district, he said, spends more than $10,000 per pupil per year. Yet the district's four-year graduation rate was 46 percent -- and just 26 percent for black students.
"Those outcomes are unacceptable," he said.
Dave Heistad, director of testing, evaluation and student information for the Minneapolis schools, disputed the governor's data. Under new federal rules, he said Minneapolis' four-year graduation rate in 2002 was 57 percent -- 78 percent when counting just the students who attend the city's seven regular high schools.
While the governor said that he understands that the Minneapolis schools cannot control the poverty of their families or the readiness of their new students to learn, focusing funding on results could have a dramatic effect.
If the pilot projects work, Pawlenty said, "I think it opens the door to the whole discussion about how we pay teachers."
James Walsh is at jwalsh@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kate ODonovan
I knew one woman last year who is a 1st grade teacher in Rhode Island. Being that she worked at a school in the city, there was a good mix of students (spanish, white, african american, etc.). I remember asking her why she didn't work in one of the schools in the town she lived in (southern r.i.). She told me that she likes working in the city because the majority of the students' parents were non-english speaking and didn't really know their children's rights in school, i.e. if one of the children needed extra support or services and how to go about obtaining those services. She said that she does not want to have to deal with parents such as myself who know their children's rights and would attend iep meetings, etc.
Because the kids in her class spoke english as a second language, they sometime struggled and she would tell me that the work they generated was nothing but garbage. I just could not believe what I was hearing! On top of it, she would be surprised when the pricipal would check up on her and the other teachers would complain about her teaching. She was shocked when letters of reprimand were placed in file. What is wrong with people?
Kate
Because the kids in her class spoke english as a second language, they sometime struggled and she would tell me that the work they generated was nothing but garbage. I just could not believe what I was hearing! On top of it, she would be surprised when the pricipal would check up on her and the other teachers would complain about her teaching. She was shocked when letters of reprimand were placed in file. What is wrong with people?
Kate
----- Original Message -----
From: Paula Sjogerman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "super teachers"
I do think paying teachers $100,000 would make better teachers. But not if
it's attached to performance. That will just mean more attention paid to
standardized tests.
I think all teachers should be paid that much, but there should be no
tenure. I think classes should be 10 kids or less. I think schools should
be more like libraries or colleges and not compulsory.
Should I run for Superintendent of Schools? <ggg>.
Paula
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula Sjogerman
I do think paying teachers $100,000 would make better teachers. But not if
it's attached to performance. That will just mean more attention paid to
standardized tests.
I think all teachers should be paid that much, but there should be no
tenure. I think classes should be 10 kids or less. I think schools should
be more like libraries or colleges and not compulsory.
Should I run for Superintendent of Schools? <ggg>.
Paula
it's attached to performance. That will just mean more attention paid to
standardized tests.
I think all teachers should be paid that much, but there should be no
tenure. I think classes should be 10 kids or less. I think schools should
be more like libraries or colleges and not compulsory.
Should I run for Superintendent of Schools? <ggg>.
Paula
Julie
Paula wrote:
<<I do think paying teachers $100,000 would make better teachers. But not if
it's attached to performance. That will just mean more attention paid to
standardized tests.
I think all teachers should be paid that much, but there should be no
tenure. I think classes should be 10 kids or less. I think schools should
be more like libraries or colleges and not compulsory.
Should I run for Superintendent of Schools? <ggg>.>>
Another thing to add to your vision, Paula. Let's open up all the buildings called "schools," rename them "free learning centers" or something to diminish negative associations, and welcome all students, regardless of age. Let's see 80-yr.-olds learning alongside 6-yr.-olds in a class led by an 11-yr.-old.
In addition to having well-paid instructors, let's have a network of volunteers willing to lead classes in areas of interest.
Let's open up these buildings 24 hrs./day, 365 days/yr. to community groups. What a wonderful use of our tax dollars!
Still dreaming,
Julie
<<I do think paying teachers $100,000 would make better teachers. But not if
it's attached to performance. That will just mean more attention paid to
standardized tests.
I think all teachers should be paid that much, but there should be no
tenure. I think classes should be 10 kids or less. I think schools should
be more like libraries or colleges and not compulsory.
Should I run for Superintendent of Schools? <ggg>.>>
Another thing to add to your vision, Paula. Let's open up all the buildings called "schools," rename them "free learning centers" or something to diminish negative associations, and welcome all students, regardless of age. Let's see 80-yr.-olds learning alongside 6-yr.-olds in a class led by an 11-yr.-old.
In addition to having well-paid instructors, let's have a network of volunteers willing to lead classes in areas of interest.
Let's open up these buildings 24 hrs./day, 365 days/yr. to community groups. What a wonderful use of our tax dollars!
Still dreaming,
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: Paula Sjogerman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "super teachers"
I do think paying teachers $100,000 would make better teachers. But not if
it's attached to performance. That will just mean more attention paid to
standardized tests.
I think all teachers should be paid that much, but there should be no
tenure. I think classes should be 10 kids or less. I think schools should
be more like libraries or colleges and not compulsory.
Should I run for Superintendent of Schools? <ggg>.
Paula
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Norma
--- In [email protected], Paula Sjogerman <sjogy@s...>
wrote:
<>I do think paying teachers $100,000 would make better teachers. But
not if it's attached to performance. That will just mean more
attention paid to standardized tests.
I think all teachers should be paid that much, but there should be no
tenure. I think classes should be 10 kids or less. I think schools
should be more like libraries or colleges and not compulsory.
Should I run for Superintendent of Schools? <ggg>.<>
Paula:
I think you should run for President!!!
Norma
wrote:
<>I do think paying teachers $100,000 would make better teachers. But
not if it's attached to performance. That will just mean more
attention paid to standardized tests.
I think all teachers should be paid that much, but there should be no
tenure. I think classes should be 10 kids or less. I think schools
should be more like libraries or colleges and not compulsory.
Should I run for Superintendent of Schools? <ggg>.<>
Paula:
I think you should run for President!!!
Norma
Norma
--- In [email protected], "Julie" <jlist@r...> wrote:
<>Another thing to add to your vision, Paula. Let's open up all the
buildings called "schools," rename them "free learning centers" or
something to diminish negative associations, and welcome all
students, regardless of age. Let's see 80-yr.-olds learning
alongside 6-yr.-olds in a class led by an 11-yr.-old.
In addition to having well-paid instructors, let's have a network of
volunteers willing to lead classes in areas of interest.
Let's open up these buildings 24 hrs./day, 365 days/yr. to community
groups. What a wonderful use of our tax dollars!
Still dreaming,
Julie<>
Julie:
And you should run as Vice-President! What you have said sounds very
much like one of my favorite Ivan Illich quotes:
"A good educational system should have three purposes: it should
provide all who want to learn with access to available resources at
anytime in their lives; empower all who want to share what they know
to find those who want to learn it from them; and finally, furnish
all who want to present an issue to the public with the opportunity
to make their challenge known." Ivan Illich
That's Ivan Illich of Deschooling Society.
Norma
Julie
Norma wrote:
<<What you have said sounds very
much like one of my favorite Ivan Illich quotes:
"A good educational system should have three purposes: it should
provide all who want to learn with access to available resources at
anytime in their lives; empower all who want to share what they know
to find those who want to learn it from them; and finally, furnish
all who want to present an issue to the public with the opportunity to make their challenge known." - Ivan Illich
That's Ivan Illich of Deschooling Society.>>
Funny you should mention Ivan Illich and Deschooling Society, Norma. I just bought it at a used book store! My parents were visiting last weekend, and my dad started to read it before I did. I told him to go ahead and take it home, and I would get it at Thanksgiving.
He read the book twenty-some years ago as a high school teacher, and now he's rereading it while teaching a college course for future English teachers. He just told me today that he may have to reconsider what he's doing, that preparing people to teach within schools might be an uphill battle. We'll see...
Julie
<<What you have said sounds very
much like one of my favorite Ivan Illich quotes:
"A good educational system should have three purposes: it should
provide all who want to learn with access to available resources at
anytime in their lives; empower all who want to share what they know
to find those who want to learn it from them; and finally, furnish
all who want to present an issue to the public with the opportunity to make their challenge known." - Ivan Illich
That's Ivan Illich of Deschooling Society.>>
Funny you should mention Ivan Illich and Deschooling Society, Norma. I just bought it at a used book store! My parents were visiting last weekend, and my dad started to read it before I did. I told him to go ahead and take it home, and I would get it at Thanksgiving.
He read the book twenty-some years ago as a high school teacher, and now he's rereading it while teaching a college course for future English teachers. He just told me today that he may have to reconsider what he's doing, that preparing people to teach within schools might be an uphill battle. We'll see...
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: Norma
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 1:47 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: "super teachers"
--- In [email protected], "Julie" <jlist@r...> wrote:
<>Another thing to add to your vision, Paula. Let's open up all the
buildings called "schools," rename them "free learning centers" or
something to diminish negative associations, and welcome all
students, regardless of age. Let's see 80-yr.-olds learning
alongside 6-yr.-olds in a class led by an 11-yr.-old.
In addition to having well-paid instructors, let's have a network of
volunteers willing to lead classes in areas of interest.
Let's open up these buildings 24 hrs./day, 365 days/yr. to community
groups. What a wonderful use of our tax dollars!
Still dreaming,
Julie<>
Julie:
And you should run as Vice-President! What you have said sounds very
much like one of my favorite Ivan Illich quotes:
"A good educational system should have three purposes: it should
provide all who want to learn with access to available resources at
anytime in their lives; empower all who want to share what they know
to find those who want to learn it from them; and finally, furnish
all who want to present an issue to the public with the opportunity
to make their challenge known." - Ivan Illich
That's Ivan Illich of Deschooling Society.
Norma
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Norma
--- In [email protected], "Julie" <jlist@r...> wrote:
<>Funny you should mention Ivan Illich and Deschooling Society,
Norma. I just bought it at a used book store! My parents were
visiting last weekend, and my dad started to read it before I did. I
told him to go ahead and take it home, and I would get it at
Thanksgiving.
He read the book twenty-some years ago as a high school teacher, and
now he's rereading it while teaching a college course for future
English teachers. He just told me today that he may have to
reconsider what he's doing, that preparing people to teach within
schools might be an uphill battle. We'll see...<>
Julie:
Sounds like he's given himself a challenge. Here's another taste of
Ivan Illich:
Ivan Illich on Schools
"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what
the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and
substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the
more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation
leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching
with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with
competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new. His
imagination is "schooled" to accept service in place of value.
Medical treatment is mistaken for health care, social work for the
improvement of community life, police protection for safety, military
poise for national security, the rat race for productive work.
Health, learning, dignity, independence, and creative endeavour are
defined as little more than the performance of the institutions which
claim to serve these ends, and their improvement is made to depend on
allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools,
and other agencies in question."
Ivan Illich - Deschooling Society (1973: 9)
You can read the whole of Deschooling Society here:
http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/deschooling.htm
Norma
Norma
Link I posted works but leads to nothing. Chapters are there but no
text. Here is one for Deschooling Society that does work:
http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html
Norma
text. Here is one for Deschooling Society that does work:
http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html
Norma
Julie
Norma wrote:
<<Ivan Illich on Schools
"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what
the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and
substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the
more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation
leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching
with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with
competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new. His
imagination is "schooled" to accept service in place of value.
Medical treatment is mistaken for health care, social work for the
improvement of community life, police protection for safety, military
poise for national security, the rat race for productive work.
Health, learning, dignity, independence, and creative endeavour are
defined as little more than the performance of the institutions which
claim to serve these ends, and their improvement is made to depend on
allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools,
and other agencies in question."
Ivan Illich - Deschooling Society (1973: 9)
You can read the whole of Deschooling Society here:
http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/deschooling.htm>>
Wow, that just about says it all, doesn't it. Thanks for the quote and the link. Now I don't have to wait until Thanksgiving to read the book! :)
Julie
<<Ivan Illich on Schools
"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what
the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and
substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the
more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation
leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching
with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with
competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new. His
imagination is "schooled" to accept service in place of value.
Medical treatment is mistaken for health care, social work for the
improvement of community life, police protection for safety, military
poise for national security, the rat race for productive work.
Health, learning, dignity, independence, and creative endeavour are
defined as little more than the performance of the institutions which
claim to serve these ends, and their improvement is made to depend on
allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools,
and other agencies in question."
Ivan Illich - Deschooling Society (1973: 9)
You can read the whole of Deschooling Society here:
http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/deschooling.htm>>
Wow, that just about says it all, doesn't it. Thanks for the quote and the link. Now I don't have to wait until Thanksgiving to read the book! :)
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: Norma
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 6:21 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: "super teachers"/Ivan Illich On Schools
--- In [email protected], "Julie" <jlist@r...> wrote:
<>Funny you should mention Ivan Illich and Deschooling Society,
Norma. I just bought it at a used book store! My parents were
visiting last weekend, and my dad started to read it before I did. I
told him to go ahead and take it home, and I would get it at
Thanksgiving.
He read the book twenty-some years ago as a high school teacher, and
now he's rereading it while teaching a college course for future
English teachers. He just told me today that he may have to
reconsider what he's doing, that preparing people to teach within
schools might be an uphill battle. We'll see...<>
Julie:
Sounds like he's given himself a challenge. Here's another taste of
Ivan Illich:
Ivan Illich on Schools
"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what
the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and
substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the
more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation
leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching
with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with
competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new. His
imagination is "schooled" to accept service in place of value.
Medical treatment is mistaken for health care, social work for the
improvement of community life, police protection for safety, military
poise for national security, the rat race for productive work.
Health, learning, dignity, independence, and creative endeavour are
defined as little more than the performance of the institutions which
claim to serve these ends, and their improvement is made to depend on
allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools,
and other agencies in question."
Ivan Illich - Deschooling Society (1973: 9)
You can read the whole of Deschooling Society here:
http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/deschooling.htm
Norma
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Retta
".... paying teachers $100,000 would make better teachers."
I know you all have a very sophisticated sense of humor - are you kidding about this?
Joylyn sounds like a ray of hope in a horrible situation. If her salary were doubled would that make her a better teacher? I don't see how it could.
Homeschools or public schools are only two options, with lots of things in between. Paying half our income in taxes makes people think there are no other viable options. The only moral, non-coercive learning centers are ones which would be paid for by users or charities instead of tax dollars taken by force. Give back all those tax dollars that are thrown away on inhumane institutions and you'd see lots of new ideas springing up everywhere. Demand creates supply. Refunded tax dollars would cover a lot of user fees - enough to defray the cost to families who can't afford them.
Taxpayers have no real say in how the tax dollars are spent; consumers do. I believe whole heartedly that that's why public schools are in the condition that they're in - we are forced to pay for something we have no say about and no real choice in.
In "Growing Without Schooling" John Holt said that if what teachers do is so valuable they should try leaving the monopoly of the government schools, rent an office, hang out a sign that says, "teacher" and see how many people are willing to pay them tens of thousands of dollars for what they do. John Holt was a "super teacher" and he left the profession because it was so destructive and because of the futility of trying to improve it.
We're all very diligent at non-coercion of our children; I just don't believe in the government coercing my neighbors to pay for my children's education or any other choice I make or forcing me to pay for theirs, it's immoral.
Retta
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I know you all have a very sophisticated sense of humor - are you kidding about this?
Joylyn sounds like a ray of hope in a horrible situation. If her salary were doubled would that make her a better teacher? I don't see how it could.
Homeschools or public schools are only two options, with lots of things in between. Paying half our income in taxes makes people think there are no other viable options. The only moral, non-coercive learning centers are ones which would be paid for by users or charities instead of tax dollars taken by force. Give back all those tax dollars that are thrown away on inhumane institutions and you'd see lots of new ideas springing up everywhere. Demand creates supply. Refunded tax dollars would cover a lot of user fees - enough to defray the cost to families who can't afford them.
Taxpayers have no real say in how the tax dollars are spent; consumers do. I believe whole heartedly that that's why public schools are in the condition that they're in - we are forced to pay for something we have no say about and no real choice in.
In "Growing Without Schooling" John Holt said that if what teachers do is so valuable they should try leaving the monopoly of the government schools, rent an office, hang out a sign that says, "teacher" and see how many people are willing to pay them tens of thousands of dollars for what they do. John Holt was a "super teacher" and he left the profession because it was so destructive and because of the futility of trying to improve it.
We're all very diligent at non-coercion of our children; I just don't believe in the government coercing my neighbors to pay for my children's education or any other choice I make or forcing me to pay for theirs, it's immoral.
Retta
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Norma
--- In [email protected], Retta <rettafontana@y...>
wrote:
<>In "Growing Without Schooling" John Holt said that if what teachers
do is so valuable they should try leaving the monopoly of the
government schools, rent an office, hang out a sign that
says, "teacher" and see how many people are willing to pay them tens
of thousands of dollars for what they do. John Holt was a "super
teacher" and he left the profession because it was so destructive and
because of the futility of trying to improve it.
children's education or any other choice I make or forcing me to pay
for theirs, it's immoral.<>
Retta:
Great points! I left teaching because beating one's head against the
brick wall of institutionalization hurts, and leaves one with a
bloody beaten mess sitting on one's shoulders. Not my idea of good
sense. JTG said the same thing, leaving at his peak, upon receiving
his New York state teacher of the year award. This is one
institution where inertia and all the forces of resistance are really
set in concrete. When I left full-time teaching back in the
seventies I felt we should blow up all the schools and go back to the
way this country started. I know that is not realistic, but home
education, and unschooling in particular, are about as close to that
as we can easily get.
As for us paying for our neighbor's children's education, well,
geesh, just look what a great job public schools have been doing with
all those tax dollars! Try to find qualified help, for anything.
Try to get service from workers, in offices, stores, repair shops. I
know several friends who had to close their businesses because they
could not find adequate qualified help to do the work they had. The
problem, as I see it, is that we home educators don't get out the
vote enough on this issue. We could, in some places and some
elections, turn the vote around and prevent those bond issues or tax
levies from passing. But not enough of us get out and vote. We are
a viable voting block, if we will but register and vote. Otherwise
we are stuck supporting a system from which way too many people are
making way too much money to be willing to let go without a huge
fight. Even when the schools they are supporting are failing
miserably with plenty of data, data that we all paid for by the way,
to support that contention.
Norma
wrote:
<>In "Growing Without Schooling" John Holt said that if what teachers
do is so valuable they should try leaving the monopoly of the
government schools, rent an office, hang out a sign that
says, "teacher" and see how many people are willing to pay them tens
of thousands of dollars for what they do. John Holt was a "super
teacher" and he left the profession because it was so destructive and
because of the futility of trying to improve it.
> We're all very diligent at non-coercion of our children; I justdon't believe in the government coercing my neighbors to pay for my
children's education or any other choice I make or forcing me to pay
for theirs, it's immoral.<>
Retta:
Great points! I left teaching because beating one's head against the
brick wall of institutionalization hurts, and leaves one with a
bloody beaten mess sitting on one's shoulders. Not my idea of good
sense. JTG said the same thing, leaving at his peak, upon receiving
his New York state teacher of the year award. This is one
institution where inertia and all the forces of resistance are really
set in concrete. When I left full-time teaching back in the
seventies I felt we should blow up all the schools and go back to the
way this country started. I know that is not realistic, but home
education, and unschooling in particular, are about as close to that
as we can easily get.
As for us paying for our neighbor's children's education, well,
geesh, just look what a great job public schools have been doing with
all those tax dollars! Try to find qualified help, for anything.
Try to get service from workers, in offices, stores, repair shops. I
know several friends who had to close their businesses because they
could not find adequate qualified help to do the work they had. The
problem, as I see it, is that we home educators don't get out the
vote enough on this issue. We could, in some places and some
elections, turn the vote around and prevent those bond issues or tax
levies from passing. But not enough of us get out and vote. We are
a viable voting block, if we will but register and vote. Otherwise
we are stuck supporting a system from which way too many people are
making way too much money to be willing to let go without a huge
fight. Even when the schools they are supporting are failing
miserably with plenty of data, data that we all paid for by the way,
to support that contention.
Norma
Retta
Norma wrote:
My 15yo tells me about once a week how happy he is to be out of that "prison." He sleeps in while his friends are in school (also asleep), wakes up and makes coffee, usually starts a discussion with me about what he's reading or events in the world covering economics, history, civics, etc, he then spends a couple hours teaching himself calculus or programming or whatever or telling the dog he loves her. Gets himself organized for his day depending on his plans asks me or his dad for whatever he thinks he needs, asks what I'm doing that day, then picks up his buddies after they get released, sometimes bringing them here to shoot pool, play foosball or hang out.
A young guy in my art class just graduated from the local high school. I asked him how he tolerated it, he said he hated it, hated every minute of it for four years. The young people in the class are generally lethargic and have to be herded and spoon fed, and it's an art class. I wonder where they learned that???
elections, turn the vote around and prevent those bond issues or tax
levies from passing. But not enough of us get out and vote. We are
a viable voting block, if we will but register and vote. Otherwise
we are stuck supporting a system from which way too many people are
making way too much money to be willing to let go without a huge
fight. Even when the schools they are supporting are failing
miserably with plenty of data, data that we all paid for by the way,
to support that contention."
This is why we've done something as radical as throw in our lot with the Free State Project. Coincidentally, New Hampshire is having an education funding crisis right now. Their state supreme court ruled that the property tax funding method is illegal, they have no state income or sales tax and NHer's are violently opposed to new taxes. It is ripe for an education revolution, although I don't hold any hope for success anytime soon. We just feel we must take some action and make a stand, so we've agreed to relocate to NH along with 20k other liberty lovers.
Who is JTG??
Retta
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>"When I left full-time teaching back in the seventies I felt we should blow up all the schools....."And you were there voluntarily! Imagine those poor, powerless children, it must be like being in prison.
My 15yo tells me about once a week how happy he is to be out of that "prison." He sleeps in while his friends are in school (also asleep), wakes up and makes coffee, usually starts a discussion with me about what he's reading or events in the world covering economics, history, civics, etc, he then spends a couple hours teaching himself calculus or programming or whatever or telling the dog he loves her. Gets himself organized for his day depending on his plans asks me or his dad for whatever he thinks he needs, asks what I'm doing that day, then picks up his buddies after they get released, sometimes bringing them here to shoot pool, play foosball or hang out.
A young guy in my art class just graduated from the local high school. I asked him how he tolerated it, he said he hated it, hated every minute of it for four years. The young people in the class are generally lethargic and have to be herded and spoon fed, and it's an art class. I wonder where they learned that???
>"The problem, as I see it, is that we home educators don't get out thevote enough on this issue. We could, in some places and some
elections, turn the vote around and prevent those bond issues or tax
levies from passing. But not enough of us get out and vote. We are
a viable voting block, if we will but register and vote. Otherwise
we are stuck supporting a system from which way too many people are
making way too much money to be willing to let go without a huge
fight. Even when the schools they are supporting are failing
miserably with plenty of data, data that we all paid for by the way,
to support that contention."
This is why we've done something as radical as throw in our lot with the Free State Project. Coincidentally, New Hampshire is having an education funding crisis right now. Their state supreme court ruled that the property tax funding method is illegal, they have no state income or sales tax and NHer's are violently opposed to new taxes. It is ripe for an education revolution, although I don't hold any hope for success anytime soon. We just feel we must take some action and make a stand, so we've agreed to relocate to NH along with 20k other liberty lovers.
Who is JTG??
Retta
---------------------------------
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Norma
--- In [email protected], Retta <rettafontana@y...>
wrote:
his award and announced that he was resigning from teaching, throwing
his support behind home education ever since.
Here's John Taylor Gatto's web site on which he has continually
posted chapter after chapter of his newest book:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
Here is a site with links to most other available JTG web material:
http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Gatto.html
Enjoy!
wrote:
> Who is JTG??John Taylor Gatto, former New York teacher of the year who accepted
his award and announced that he was resigning from teaching, throwing
his support behind home education ever since.
Here's John Taylor Gatto's web site on which he has continually
posted chapter after chapter of his newest book:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
Here is a site with links to most other available JTG web material:
http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Gatto.html
Enjoy!
Dawn Bennink
One of the biggest thrills of my recent life was when JTG signed our
F.R.E.E. in NY proclamation. For some reason, it was just darned
exciting getting a fax from "the man." :o)
Dawn
Norma wrote:
F.R.E.E. in NY proclamation. For some reason, it was just darned
exciting getting a fax from "the man." :o)
Dawn
Norma wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Retta <rettafontana@y...>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> wrote:
> > Who is JTG??
>
> John Taylor Gatto, former New York teacher of the year who accepted
> his award and announced that he was resigning from teaching, throwing
> his support behind home education ever since.
>
> Here's John Taylor Gatto's web site on which he has continually
> posted chapter after chapter of his newest book:
> http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
> Here is a site with links to most other available JTG web material:
> http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Gatto.html
>
> Enjoy!
>
>
>
>
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Retta
All I can say is "wow!"
Retta
John Taylor Gatto, former New York teacher of the year who accepted
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Retta
John Taylor Gatto, former New York teacher of the year who accepted
> his award and announced that he was resigning from teaching, throwing---------------------------------
> his support behind home education ever since.
>
> Here's John Taylor Gatto's web site on which he has continually
> posted chapter after chapter of his newest book:
> http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
> Here is a site with links to most other available JTG web material:
> http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Gatto.html
>
> Enjoy!
>
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