Money & Power
Julie
I've been following the thread about television and thinking about how the TV issue is really connected to money (for me, at least), how it gets spent, and what kind of input kids have when it comes to how the family spends money.
My husband and I don't have cable, but we do rent movies. We get a few (mostly worthless) channels on the TV--nothing we can't live without. We'll probably still have a TV when kids come along.
Anyhow, when they do come along, the issue of whether or not to expand our TV horizons will involve discussions of the advantages and disadvantages of more TV (and I feel confident that a family could come to some kind of consensus on that), but it would also be a discussion about money.
How do you involve kids in these kinds of discussions? If money = power in this society, then how do we reverse this trend in an unschooling family? Who gets to decide what we can spend money on and what we can't?
I'm kind of locked into this mindset of adults being authoritarian and having all the power when it comes to money. That seems unfair, but I'm finding it hard to envision it any other way.
Another thing--do your kids get allowances? I'd really like to know an effective approach toward handling money in an inclusive way and with respect for all (and, of course, without burdening little ones too much with financial concerns).
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My husband and I don't have cable, but we do rent movies. We get a few (mostly worthless) channels on the TV--nothing we can't live without. We'll probably still have a TV when kids come along.
Anyhow, when they do come along, the issue of whether or not to expand our TV horizons will involve discussions of the advantages and disadvantages of more TV (and I feel confident that a family could come to some kind of consensus on that), but it would also be a discussion about money.
How do you involve kids in these kinds of discussions? If money = power in this society, then how do we reverse this trend in an unschooling family? Who gets to decide what we can spend money on and what we can't?
I'm kind of locked into this mindset of adults being authoritarian and having all the power when it comes to money. That seems unfair, but I'm finding it hard to envision it any other way.
Another thing--do your kids get allowances? I'd really like to know an effective approach toward handling money in an inclusive way and with respect for all (and, of course, without burdening little ones too much with financial concerns).
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Bennink
Julie wrote:
optional and have nothing to do with allowance. Then there are things
they can do around the house, for neighbors, etc, to earn some extra
money for the things they want that we just aren't going to buy for them
for no good reason at all. They have an account with us where we tally
earnings and expenditures. We don't often just hand them the cash as it
disappears into the recesses of their rooms never to be found again when
we do. When they ask for one of those things we don't want to buy them,
we compare the price to how much they have in their account, how much
will be left, all the things they had to do to get it, etc. They are
much more discriminating when it comes to spending their money that they
would be with ours. My older son hoards money like a miser when he has
a savings goal. He earned enough in less than a year for a Power Wheels
Harley Davidson motorcycle.
Dawn
> Another thing--do your kids get allowances? I'd really like to knowMy kids do sort of get an allowance. They have chores that are not
> an effective approach toward handling money in an inclusive way and
> with respect for all (and, of course, without burdening little ones
> too much with financial concerns).
optional and have nothing to do with allowance. Then there are things
they can do around the house, for neighbors, etc, to earn some extra
money for the things they want that we just aren't going to buy for them
for no good reason at all. They have an account with us where we tally
earnings and expenditures. We don't often just hand them the cash as it
disappears into the recesses of their rooms never to be found again when
we do. When they ask for one of those things we don't want to buy them,
we compare the price to how much they have in their account, how much
will be left, all the things they had to do to get it, etc. They are
much more discriminating when it comes to spending their money that they
would be with ours. My older son hoards money like a miser when he has
a savings goal. He earned enough in less than a year for a Power Wheels
Harley Davidson motorcycle.
Dawn
catherine aceto
My 5 yo gets $5/week -- enough so that she can buy a small toy if she wants to, or save for a bigger toy (like a barbie or playdough set) in an amount of time that is conceivable to a five year old. She likes to window shop the toy stores, thinking about what she'd like to save her allowance for. The first couple of months, it seemed to burn a whole in her pocket -- as soon as she got it she wanted to spend it -- now she is more concerned with finding something that she wants to own, rather than just spending money because she has some. I think she has about $20 saved right now.
The money isn't tied to her behavior in any way. It is the line item in the family budget for Lydia discretionary spending, similar to the line item that my husband and I each have. The baby does not have a line item yet. : - )
-Cat
The money isn't tied to her behavior in any way. It is the line item in the family budget for Lydia discretionary spending, similar to the line item that my husband and I each have. The baby does not have a line item yet. : - )
-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: Dawn Bennink
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Money & Power
Julie wrote:
> Another thing--do your kids get allowances? I'd really like to know
> an effective approach toward handling money in an inclusive way and
> with respect for all (and, of course, without burdening little ones
> too much with financial concerns).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/17/2003 5:47:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jlist@... writes:
-=-If money = power in this society, then how do we reverse this trend in an
unschooling family? Who gets to decide what we can spend money on and what we
can't?-=-
I don't buy anything expensive without asking my husband. When we were
really young and I was the sole income it was still the same way. He doesn't spend
a lot without asking me.
When we were young, "a lot" was maybe $10 or $15. Now it's $40 or so.
If one of the kids wants something expensive, if it's good for the whole
family, we discuss getting it. Sometimes we have. Sometimes we help them out or
match funds or give an advance on allowance.
Kirby has a job and makes real money. We hint sometimes that he might want
to save more, but we ultimately let him spend it however he wants to.
They all get allowance, starting when they were five. It's 75 cents per week
per year of age. We've decided this is Kirby's last year of allowance; he's
17 and gets $12.75. Holly gets $8.25. Sometimes they don't collect and they
let it build up in "the bank of dad."
We've tried not to be stingy with the kids. They've been really honest with
us, I think directly because we're not cruel or inflexible about money. A
couple of weeks ago Marty was going bowling with some other homeschoolers, and at
the last minute Holly wanted to go. I handed Marty $40. He brought back
change and accounted for everything. They've always done this, and because
they're so careful and precise, we trust them with money they same way we would
trust ourselves. By that I mean if I were to have gone bowling with them so I
could pay for things, it would have cost even more (at least a soda for me) but
we've always discussed what's good use of money and they know if they bring
back change they're more likely to get money in the future without problems.
This might sound lame, but it's almost like once we got the goodness-siphon
going, it just keeps going on its own power. Each act or decision builds on
the last.
I don't know that this could work with people who already have a bad
relationship with a child, but with starting from birth, I've seen it work well in
lots of families
Trust and openness. Honesty and generosity.
Both Marty and Holly have been known FREQUENTLY to talk me out of spending
money when we're out.
Last Sunday we left for a three+ hour car ride to my sister's. Holly and
Kirby said it was too early to eat, they weren't hungry. I took
apples/cheese/nuts in the car for later, and a bottle of juice. Everyone had water. Keith
went through Burger King and he and Marty ordered food. The others could have
changed their minds and ordered, but they really weren't hungry.
When I was a kid, if there was ANYTHING to be bought--food toys--I by god
wanted my share. I had a neediness my kids just have never had.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jlist@... writes:
-=-If money = power in this society, then how do we reverse this trend in an
unschooling family? Who gets to decide what we can spend money on and what we
can't?-=-
I don't buy anything expensive without asking my husband. When we were
really young and I was the sole income it was still the same way. He doesn't spend
a lot without asking me.
When we were young, "a lot" was maybe $10 or $15. Now it's $40 or so.
If one of the kids wants something expensive, if it's good for the whole
family, we discuss getting it. Sometimes we have. Sometimes we help them out or
match funds or give an advance on allowance.
Kirby has a job and makes real money. We hint sometimes that he might want
to save more, but we ultimately let him spend it however he wants to.
They all get allowance, starting when they were five. It's 75 cents per week
per year of age. We've decided this is Kirby's last year of allowance; he's
17 and gets $12.75. Holly gets $8.25. Sometimes they don't collect and they
let it build up in "the bank of dad."
We've tried not to be stingy with the kids. They've been really honest with
us, I think directly because we're not cruel or inflexible about money. A
couple of weeks ago Marty was going bowling with some other homeschoolers, and at
the last minute Holly wanted to go. I handed Marty $40. He brought back
change and accounted for everything. They've always done this, and because
they're so careful and precise, we trust them with money they same way we would
trust ourselves. By that I mean if I were to have gone bowling with them so I
could pay for things, it would have cost even more (at least a soda for me) but
we've always discussed what's good use of money and they know if they bring
back change they're more likely to get money in the future without problems.
This might sound lame, but it's almost like once we got the goodness-siphon
going, it just keeps going on its own power. Each act or decision builds on
the last.
I don't know that this could work with people who already have a bad
relationship with a child, but with starting from birth, I've seen it work well in
lots of families
Trust and openness. Honesty and generosity.
Both Marty and Holly have been known FREQUENTLY to talk me out of spending
money when we're out.
Last Sunday we left for a three+ hour car ride to my sister's. Holly and
Kirby said it was too early to eat, they weren't hungry. I took
apples/cheese/nuts in the car for later, and a bottle of juice. Everyone had water. Keith
went through Burger King and he and Marty ordered food. The others could have
changed their minds and ordered, but they really weren't hungry.
When I was a kid, if there was ANYTHING to be bought--food toys--I by god
wanted my share. I had a neediness my kids just have never had.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
It was pretty simple for me to see that the programming my kids enjoy is not included in basic cable. For dh, the sports events he likes to watch also are in the expanded basic, not the flat basic package. My kids do watch some things that are of no value to me, yet I've watched with them and seen ways that is does have value to them. Some of the other things they choose to watch, all on their own, are just amazing.
I watch very little TV beyond what I sit and watch when other family members are viewing. OTH, I LOVE cable internet for its speed and instant accessibility and for not tying up the phone line. I wouldn't even consider asking my family to give up cable TV, which I rarely use on my own, unless I were will to give up cable internet, which I'm not, unless things got really, really tight.
Mary Ellen
I watch very little TV beyond what I sit and watch when other family members are viewing. OTH, I LOVE cable internet for its speed and instant accessibility and for not tying up the phone line. I wouldn't even consider asking my family to give up cable TV, which I rarely use on my own, unless I were will to give up cable internet, which I'm not, unless things got really, really tight.
Mary Ellen
----- Original Message -----Anyhow, when they do come along, the issue of whether or not to expand our TV horizons will involve discussions of the advantages and disadvantages of more TV (and I feel confident that a family could come to some kind of consensus on that), but it would also be a discussion about money.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie
Thanks for your input, Cat and Dawn.
Julie
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: catherine aceto
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Money & Power
My 5 yo gets $5/week -- enough so that she can buy a small toy if she wants to, or save for a bigger toy (like a barbie or playdough set) in an amount of time that is conceivable to a five year old. She likes to window shop the toy stores, thinking about what she'd like to save her allowance for. The first couple of months, it seemed to burn a whole in her pocket -- as soon as she got it she wanted to spend it -- now she is more concerned with finding something that she wants to own, rather than just spending money because she has some. I think she has about $20 saved right now.
The money isn't tied to her behavior in any way. It is the line item in the family budget for Lydia discretionary spending, similar to the line item that my husband and I each have. The baby does not have a line item yet. : - )
-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: Dawn Bennink
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Money & Power
Julie wrote:
> Another thing--do your kids get allowances? I'd really like to know
> an effective approach toward handling money in an inclusive way and
> with respect for all (and, of course, without burdening little ones
> too much with financial concerns).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Julie
from Sandra:
<<When I was a kid, if there was ANYTHING to be bought--food toys--I by god wanted my share. I had a neediness my kids just have never had.>>
This is interesting to me. I keep forgetting that unschooled kids won't necessarily react the same way as I did in situations involving money.
Julie
<<When I was a kid, if there was ANYTHING to be bought--food toys--I by god wanted my share. I had a neediness my kids just have never had.>>
This is interesting to me. I keep forgetting that unschooled kids won't necessarily react the same way as I did in situations involving money.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Money & Power
In a message dated 10/17/2003 5:47:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jlist@... writes:
-=-If money = power in this society, then how do we reverse this trend in an
unschooling family? Who gets to decide what we can spend money on and what we
can't?-=-
I don't buy anything expensive without asking my husband. When we were
really young and I was the sole income it was still the same way. He doesn't spend
a lot without asking me.
When we were young, "a lot" was maybe $10 or $15. Now it's $40 or so.
If one of the kids wants something expensive, if it's good for the whole
family, we discuss getting it. Sometimes we have. Sometimes we help them out or
match funds or give an advance on allowance.
Kirby has a job and makes real money. We hint sometimes that he might want
to save more, but we ultimately let him spend it however he wants to.
They all get allowance, starting when they were five. It's 75 cents per week
per year of age. We've decided this is Kirby's last year of allowance; he's
17 and gets $12.75. Holly gets $8.25. Sometimes they don't collect and they
let it build up in "the bank of dad."
We've tried not to be stingy with the kids. They've been really honest with
us, I think directly because we're not cruel or inflexible about money. A
couple of weeks ago Marty was going bowling with some other homeschoolers, and at
the last minute Holly wanted to go. I handed Marty $40. He brought back
change and accounted for everything. They've always done this, and because
they're so careful and precise, we trust them with money they same way we would
trust ourselves. By that I mean if I were to have gone bowling with them so I
could pay for things, it would have cost even more (at least a soda for me) but
we've always discussed what's good use of money and they know if they bring
back change they're more likely to get money in the future without problems.
This might sound lame, but it's almost like once we got the goodness-siphon
going, it just keeps going on its own power. Each act or decision builds on
the last.
I don't know that this could work with people who already have a bad
relationship with a child, but with starting from birth, I've seen it work well in
lots of families
Trust and openness. Honesty and generosity.
Both Marty and Holly have been known FREQUENTLY to talk me out of spending
money when we're out.
Last Sunday we left for a three+ hour car ride to my sister's. Holly and
Kirby said it was too early to eat, they weren't hungry. I took
apples/cheese/nuts in the car for later, and a bottle of juice. Everyone had water. Keith
went through Burger King and he and Marty ordered food. The others could have
changed their minds and ordered, but they really weren't hungry.
When I was a kid, if there was ANYTHING to be bought--food toys--I by god
wanted my share. I had a neediness my kids just have never had.
Sandra
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In a message dated 10/18/03 7:49:48 AM, jlist@... writes:
<< I keep forgetting that unschooled kids won't necessarily react the same
way as I did in situations involving money.
I reported here a while back that the first week Kirby had his license and I
was letting him go out and he had the go to be gone overnight or all day, he
kept coming back!!
If I had permission to be out until midnight when I was a teenager, I would
NOT have risked stopping by the house for anything, lest my mom take it back.
And if I had permission to be out overnight, I would have stayed out overnight
even if I had to sleep in the car, because such freedoms were rare.
So there was Kirby, in his own bed, the first night he had permission to keep
the car out overnight.
He said he was too long for his friend's couch now, and it just wasn't going
to be comfortable. When he had gotten tired, he wanted to sleep in his own
bed.
!!
Sandra
<< I keep forgetting that unschooled kids won't necessarily react the same
way as I did in situations involving money.
>>Nor about just about anything else, I've found with mine.
I reported here a while back that the first week Kirby had his license and I
was letting him go out and he had the go to be gone overnight or all day, he
kept coming back!!
If I had permission to be out until midnight when I was a teenager, I would
NOT have risked stopping by the house for anything, lest my mom take it back.
And if I had permission to be out overnight, I would have stayed out overnight
even if I had to sleep in the car, because such freedoms were rare.
So there was Kirby, in his own bed, the first night he had permission to keep
the car out overnight.
He said he was too long for his friend's couch now, and it just wasn't going
to be comfortable. When he had gotten tired, he wanted to sleep in his own
bed.
!!
Sandra
Nanci Kuykendall
>How do you involve kids in these kinds ofWell for us tv is not about money but more about
>discussions? If money = power in this society, then
>how do we reverse this trend in an unschooling
>family? Who gets to decide what we can spend money
>on and what we can't?
>Another thing--do your kids get allowances?
>Julie
family preferences and comfort levels, as I explained.
We cannot afford cable right now, but we stopped
watching tv when we could still afford it. Perhaps
later when our kids are older, and we have the money,
we will consider getting it again for the range of
interesting and entertaining things it brings.
Our kids get some allowance. I would like to be able
to give them .75 to $1 a week/yr of age, but we cannot
afford that right now. My husband, our sole income,
has been out of work in this lame economy for over 7
months. There is an illustration for you of where a
college degree gets you. It's get you a loan that you
have to defer while you are on unemployment. However,
we do give them several dollars once a month and we go
specifically to a "General Store" sorta like Walmart,
a little of everything, so they can get themselves a
little something. That's about as much as we spend on
luxuries for ourselves, relatively, so we feel it's
fair. Food luxuries are in a different budget and I
generally make everything from scratch so my labor is
involved. For candy they have a jar that gets filled
twice a month and they can eat it all in a couple of
days or make it last. Usually they choose to make it
last. If one of them wants to eat it all and the
other wants to make his last, then they split it in
1/2 and the sugar craving one eats his half.
As to power, we ask them to have responsibility for
some of the chores around the house (mainly picking up
toys and clothes) and they also help voluntarily
sometimes with cooking, dishes, stacking firewood, or
other chores. We only exert "parental authority" when
it involves safety, destruction of our things, or
abusive behavior. We talk about what being a family
means in terms of helping each other, sharing
responsibilities, supporting each other in all ways,
and being together. We talk about fairness when they
want us to do their share or they are making more work
for us and refusing to help with it; like refusing to
help clean up mud and soap and whatnot (from "potion
making") in the bathroom sink that has clogged up the
drain; or making a big food mess from spills or
playing in the kitchen and refusing to help clean up.
For the most part we don't have to even ask, but when
they need reminding, they are really reasonable about
helping out most of the time. We don't often pull
rank unless it's behavior so bad they get physically
removed from the room or house until they are ready to
be human.
Nanci K.
Betsy
**How do you involve kids in these kinds of discussions? If money =
power in this society, then how do we reverse this trend in an
unschooling family? Who gets to decide what we can spend money on and
what we can't?**
I think these are valuable questions.
I don't have full answers, but awareness is the first step.
Not shutting kids off is valuable. I think there are some parents who
fell guilty saying "no" and can't stand to listen to begging or whining.
They want to get through the uncomfortable moment quickly and won't
tolerate any negative feedback from their kids. Clearly that kind of
refusal to listen doesn't promote involving kids in decisions. (I don't
think very many unschoolers act like this, but lots of mainstream
parents do.)
For me, because I say "yes" to my child so much of the time, I'm not at
all uncomfortable when I say "no", because at that point I'm saying "no"
for a reason. I'm no where near perfect and I'm sure there are times
when I say "we can't afford it" when it might actually be possible to
scrape up the money if *I* really wanted to. I probably need to be
better informed about our budget and keep better track of our monthly
discretionary spending.
But, my child does feel free when we are having a spending debate to get
my attention by offering to kick in part of his allowance for something.
By offering to put his money where his mouth is (not that I prompt him
to do that) he encourages me to see that he is serious.
I hope others have more and better stuff to say.
Betsy
power in this society, then how do we reverse this trend in an
unschooling family? Who gets to decide what we can spend money on and
what we can't?**
I think these are valuable questions.
I don't have full answers, but awareness is the first step.
Not shutting kids off is valuable. I think there are some parents who
fell guilty saying "no" and can't stand to listen to begging or whining.
They want to get through the uncomfortable moment quickly and won't
tolerate any negative feedback from their kids. Clearly that kind of
refusal to listen doesn't promote involving kids in decisions. (I don't
think very many unschoolers act like this, but lots of mainstream
parents do.)
For me, because I say "yes" to my child so much of the time, I'm not at
all uncomfortable when I say "no", because at that point I'm saying "no"
for a reason. I'm no where near perfect and I'm sure there are times
when I say "we can't afford it" when it might actually be possible to
scrape up the money if *I* really wanted to. I probably need to be
better informed about our budget and keep better track of our monthly
discretionary spending.
But, my child does feel free when we are having a spending debate to get
my attention by offering to kick in part of his allowance for something.
By offering to put his money where his mouth is (not that I prompt him
to do that) he encourages me to see that he is serious.
I hope others have more and better stuff to say.
Betsy