Retta Fontana

"Well, the emperor, and apparently, your husband too LOL

I want VERY much to hang out with your family. This cracked me up. You
sound
like very cool people.

Kathryn"

Oh that's funny Kathryn! I'd love to hang out with the like-minded too. If you're ever in the neighborhood..... (southeast Michigan!)

Retta


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Retta Fontana

<I find the same results---just being open and honest and sharing. I
also have
a fifteen year old son; our relationship is envied by all his friends.
And I
don't think it's that hard, so why is it seemingly impossible for his
friends'
parents? And why would they risk that relationship and that trust?

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:02:46 -0000
From: "averyschmidt" <patti.schmidt2@...>
Subject: Re: Frustrated child discussion


> I find the same results---just being open and honest and sharing.
I also have
> a fifteen year old son; our relationship is envied by all his
friends.

I would love to hear more about how you've cultivated this
relationship. Has it always been this way, or did you have rough
patches?

My oldest is only 10, but he's very independent and strong willed.
Good traits, yes, but I tend to be a worrier and have a hard time
finding the balance between accepting his desire to be on his own
and make his own decisions (like ride his bike everywhere, including
high traffic areas, without a helmet for example) and my very strong
need to protect him. It sometimes feels like protecting our
relationship is in direct conflict with protecting *him*.

Another example... there was a party at the beach near us the other
day that went on past dark... a very big party with bonfires etc.
The ocean was quite rough due to the aftermath of the hurricane, and
he was swimming and riding the waves while I was there during the
day to pay close attention in case he needed help. I needed to
leave after dark because my 4yo was tired and cranky and 10yo wanted
to stay with friends. That was fine with me, but one stipulation
was that I didn't want him to go back in the water again... the
combination of rough surf, no lifeguards, after dark, and the fact
that the only other adults he'd be in the presence of had been
drinking and were socializing and not paying attention was too much
for me. This resulted in a very tense argument between the two of
us, and I'm alarmed that these clashes are happening more frequently
as he gets older. The *most* alarming thing to me is his seeming
belief in his own invincibility.
What's a mother to do in these situations?

Patti

<

I can certainly relate to the terror of having an "invincible" child. I wasn't always so trusting. A couple years ago, I couldn't tolerate the suffering in my relationship with the kids and found a teacher to help me move from a stance of fear to love. I used to think that I loved the kids, and what I actually was was afraid that something terrible would happen to them and I wouldn't be able to handle it. I was living in survival/adrenalin mode - exactly the opposite of the environment I wanted to create for my kids or myself. Now I know the difference between love and fear.

I still get afraid sometimes. I stop and just feel it before doing anything about it. I tell them directly "I'm afraid" and why. That is so honest and open that they listen and respond. Whereas, if I just try to make them do what I want I become a force which, by natural law, creates it's own counterforce.

By paying attention to my gut feelings, not my mind racing, I model for them how to pay attention to their real feelings that do sense danger, rather than all the thinking about what might go wrong. It's important to feel safe in the world and use that quiet inner guidance system.

I just became certified to teach the parenting class, The Gift of Being Welcomed. I'm hoping to start teaching a class in a few weeks. We do have a yahoo group where we discuss the welcoming response. You're welcome to join us.

[email protected]

Retta



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Danny Arsenault

Our three year old daughter loves to write. She makes lists and crosses things off. Asks us to spell things and writes them down. Write us letters. Interviews us and writes down the answer. All of it perfectly indecipherable to us. She writes individual letters and does so from left to right and from top to bottom just like normal writing. (Incidentally she can send instant messenges when mommy spells the words. She knows all her letter and can type them.) I definitely don't want to intrude on her writing or make her uneasy about it in any way, so I am wondering what I'm going to say when she asks me to read something she wrote, or when the topic of "what this says" come up. Anybody have any good take on this?

Thanks a lot,


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Nancy Wooton

on 9/25/03 7:09 AM, Danny Arsenault at danny31374@... wrote:

>
> Our three year old daughter loves to write. She makes lists and crosses things
> off. Asks us to spell things and writes them down. Write us letters.
> Interviews us and writes down the answer. All of it perfectly indecipherable
> to us. She writes individual letters and does so from left to right and from
> top to bottom just like normal writing. (Incidentally she can send instant
> messenges when mommy spells the words. She knows all her letter and can type
> them.) I definitely don't want to intrude on her writing or make her uneasy
> about it in any way, so I am wondering what I'm going to say when she asks me
> to read something she wrote, or when the topic of "what this says" come up.
> Anybody have any good take on this?
>

My son used to make up sheet music ("notes") which he would then play on the
piano. He'd ask me to play it sometimes, but I always asked him to play for
me. Ask her what it says, or ask her to illustrate the story. (Same son
would write whole books and newspapers in "greeking," which is what graphic
designers call jibberish text used to hold the place of the real text.)

Nancy

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/25/2003 12:21:59 PM Central Standard Time,
danny31374@... writes:


> so I am wondering what I'm going to say when she asks me to read something
> she wrote, or when the topic of "what this says" come up. Anybody have any
> good take on this?
>

Why not just say "Let's read it together." Or some such and turn it back to
her. That's probably what she's really looking for anway. My son makes
newspapers for us all to read. Gather's news and draws the pictures. Mommy
sitting on the couch reading, complete with "lovey" in her uterus. Daddy taking a
shower. Sister watching tv. You get the picture. He reads the papers to us,
it's great fun.

My daughter will, on occasion, ask questions she knows the answer to. When I
am slow to respond, she says "you say it." So I do.

Elizabeth


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Naturally N'awlins

Hmmmm,
You can always play the "I would love for you to read it to me" thing until it becomes real. Or just be honest and tell her that you are not sure of what it says, then you can help her to tell you what she meant, and then go from there, that will be a lesson in itself.
elizabeth

"It is not only what you take when you leave this world, it is what you leave behind when you go."
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Arsenault
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 7:09 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Scribbles -- Letters -- Writing



Our three year old daughter loves to write. She makes lists and crosses things off. Asks us to spell things and writes them down. Write us letters. Interviews us and writes down the answer. All of it perfectly indecipherable to us. She writes individual letters and does so from left to right and from top to bottom just like normal writing. (Incidentally she can send instant messenges when mommy spells the words. She knows all her letter and can type them.) I definitely don't want to intrude on her writing or make her uneasy about it in any way, so I am wondering what I'm going to say when she asks me to read something she wrote, or when the topic of "what this says" come up. Anybody have any good take on this?

Thanks a lot,


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Fetteroll

on 9/25/03 5:35 PM, Naturally N'awlins at ecasella@... wrote:

> Or just be honest and tell her that you are not sure of what it says, then you
> can help her to tell you what she meant, and then go from there, that will be
> a lesson in itself.

Yes. She realizes that she can't read what you write so she's not going to
be upset to find out that you can't read what she writes. It will seem just
like the natural order of things to her.

Joyce

heasue2003

Is it common for unschooled children to read and write at such a
yound age? Chelsea is my oldest... 4yrs. She joined our family
over a month ago. Biologically she is my niece. She has been in two
foster homes and had some traumatic experiences with her mom. Just
in the past three weeks are so she has been asking me sooo many
question about letters and words and etc. Before bed she asked me
what the 'middle' is! I think she is doing great for her age, but
wonder how further along whe would be if she would have been my
birth child.

Heather
Brandon 5 months....... charming.
Chelsea 4 years ....... kind - hearted.
Kelly (husband)........ my peace maker.




-- In [email protected], ejcrewe@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/25/2003 12:21:59 PM Central Standard Time,
> danny31374@y... writes:
>
>
> > so I am wondering what I'm going to say when she asks me to read
something
> > she wrote, or when the topic of "what this says" come up. Anybody
have any
> > good take on this?
> >
>
> Why not just say "Let's read it together." Or some such and turn
it back to
> her. That's probably what she's really looking for anway. My son
makes
> newspapers for us all to read. Gather's news and draws the
pictures. Mommy
> sitting on the couch reading, complete with "lovey" in her uterus.
Daddy taking a
> shower. Sister watching tv. You get the picture. He reads the
papers to us,
> it's great fun.
>
> My daughter will, on occasion, ask questions she knows the answer
to. When I
> am slow to respond, she says "you say it." So I do.
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aileen Bath

Hi --

This sounds like my dd at that age (she's almost 6 now)! She went through
some really obsessive periods with writing. I think she learned most of her
letters around 2.5/3 and would write them on long strips of paper. For my
dd -- it was "art". She's always been into drawing, crafts, etc... and I
remain convinced that learning to write has been an extension of her love of
all things art. For her, it wasn't important that her writing made no sense
to adults. When she asked me to read it, I sounded her writing out as best I
could. When she wanted to know what it meant -- I would be honest and tell
her I didn't know. I remember telling her that maybe her word/words meant
something in another language -- she liked that! Oh - the other really cute
thing I remember is that she would sit at her computer - which is directly
behind mine - and would type "emails" to me on her word processing program.
Again, strings of letters -- I couldn't make heads or tails out of it -- but
she understood it and was very proud of herself.

She learned to read really simple stuff between 3-4 and her writing started
to indicate the words she could read - like cat, dog, mom, dad, and some of
her friends names. She also got into copying words from kid dictionaries at
that age. Now she's into writing "chinese" with a feather and ink -- looks
very cool!

Hurray for letting kids do what they please...be it writing, legos, knex,
slopping in the mud, barbies....whatever! "One thing leads to another".....

Aileen


<<Our three year old daughter loves to write. She makes lists and crosses
things off. Asks us to spell things and writes t410hem down. Write us
letters. Interviews us and writes down the answer. All of it perfectly
indecipherable to us. She writes individual letters and does so from left to
right and from top to bottom just like normal writing. (Incidentally she can
send instant messenges when mommy spells the words. She knows all her letter
and can type them.) I definitely don't want to intrude on her writing or
make her uneasy about it in any way, so I am wondering what I'm going to say
when she asks me to read something she wrote, or when the topic of "what
this says" come up. Anybody have any good take on this?

Thanks a lot,

Fetteroll

on 9/25/03 11:15 PM, heasue2003 at kellyandheather@... wrote:

> I think she is doing great for her age, but
> wonder how further along whe would be if she would have been my
> birth child.

Does it matter? I don't mean that snarkily but she is what she is and is
where she is and focusing on what might have been doesn't help her grow. IT
only compares her to some possiblity she can't ever be.

That said, I learned to read early before 1st grade and then went onto
school.

My daughter Kat at 12 has been able to read for a few years but only started
reading novels recently.

If a child has all the brain and physical development needed to read early
then she'll read early as long as there is enough in the environment for her
to figure reading out. (Some will need more of being read to and
interaction, some will need less.)

Is an early reader at a greater advantage than someone who doesn't learn to
read until 11? Society leads us to think so! But there really isn't any
advantage. Early readers are just absorbing stuff by reading and non-readers
are absorbing just as much through other means. If she'd had the atmosphere
she needed earlier she just be an earlier reader, not up several "levels" in
knowledge about the world from where she is.

Where unschooling is most nurturing is for kids who will read later than the
schools expect them to. They get to learn to read free from pressure and
negative atmosphere that makes them feel like there's something wrong with
them.

Joyce

Holly Shaltz

I should have posted an intro, but that will be below :) I had to
respond to Heather's question. She wrote:

<<Is it common for unschooled children to read and write at such a
yound age? Chelsea is my oldest... 4yrs. >>

My younger son taught himself to read sometime before he turned 4. I
found out one evening when I gave him a new Dr Seuss book to look at
while I was fixing supper. He'd never seen the book before, but
proceeded to read it to me quite fluently, only having trouble with all
the words that started with "the". I had never made any point of
teaching the kids to read--at the time I thought that was school's job
<sigh>. I simply read to them. The Hobbit, The Wind in the Willows,
anything that would hold my attention and theirs. Dad was the one
willing to read the little golden books over and over every night--maybe
because they were short :)

He then went on to assist his older brother (just turned 5 at the time)
to learn to read--Jon (younger) would sit by Chris and read to him,
answer his questions. Chris was unfortunately in kindergarten at the
time (took them both out when he was in 5th grade). I don't remember a
particular moment in which he was suddenly reading, but it came to pass
over that summer.

I was a little more active in my daughter's learning to read--which
means I continued reading to her, but also played more word games (a
favorite, still, is to come up with all the words we can think of which
rhyme), made written lists of really simple words that rhyme when she
seemed to be interested, and got a workbook (Dr Seuss again, and
superbly designed) as much because we were moving and facing long car
trips (2 cars, so I had to drive the whole trip). I can't pinpoint the
time she read, but by her 6th birthday she was reading Laura Ingalls
Wilder with little help.

Brief intro: The older 2 are now grown and gone. Chris, 24, is in the
TX National Guard. He joined the Army at 17, just as his dad was
retiring after 22 years' service. He's now preparing for his second
deployment to Bosnia--I wish he weren't going, but it's a heck of a lot
better than the Middle East!

Jon, 22, is working in TN now, living with his future in-laws until he
and his fiance get married next year and find a place to live. I'm not
sure what he's doing at the moment. His last job was doing market
analysis for a real estate publishing company.

Bethany turned 12 yesterday. At the moment she's into Harry Potter (me
too :), Lord of the Rings (ditto--and we love to critique the movie and
try to figure out why the stories and characters were so changed),
reading/writing Chinese (she did Morse code a few years ago--I think
Chinese writing is sort of an extension of that for her), astronomy,
making up the languages for and details of an imaginary world, riding
her bike, studying, growing, and harvesting herbs, tea, sewing her own
clothes without patterns, and generally being as different from me as
she can be :)

I'm 45, a fiberist <http://www.hjsstudio.com> and farmer
<http://www.shaltzfarm.com>, self-taught web programmer, work part time
for a planner, and now i've got to go because the guy is coming to pick
up our pigs and some sheep for meat!

Holly

Sylvia Toyama

I think that reading is one of the things we all learn on our own schedules, and I don't know how much it can be dampened by circumstances if that's what you're asking.

With compulsory schooling and the whole concept of 'reading at grade level' being so important in recent years, I really think it's impossible to recognize the individuality of reading progression. Kids are force-taught to sound out words and read boring stuff like "jack & jill and their dog bill" (really a title my neighbor's 2nd grader is reading). I mean, who wants to read that? My brother and I used to think it great fun to just choose a World Book letter at random and read about all sorts of stuff. My sister really took off when she read her first Heinlein book.

My oldest was forced to read at 6 in school, but really didn't do it for pleasure until he was 12 or so, starting with the Goosebumps stories, then he discovered Lord of the Flies, which he's read so many times his copy is tattered.

For your neice, it may or may not be happening now -- maybe she's just curious about letters, or sounds and really enjoys being read to, but isn't ready to read herself. What I'm saying, is don't attach too much expectation to it. I found with my oldest that he resisted learning to read himself -- or to letting others know he could read -- because he worried that once we know he could read, we'd stop reading to him, leaving him alone with books when he really craved the one-on-one time of being read to.

Syl


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heasue2003

--
In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> on 9/25/03 11:15 PM, heasue2003 at kellyandheather@h... wrote:
>
> > I think she is doing great for her age, but
> > wonder how further along whe would be if she would have been my
> > birth child.
>
> Does it matter? I don't mean that snarkily but she is what she is
and is
> where she is and focusing on what might have been doesn't help her
grow. IT
> only compares her to some possiblity she can't ever be.


I know it doesn't matter. She is who she is partly because of her
life experiences. I love who she is. I guess what I was wanting to
know is whether or not it is common for most unschoolers to read
early. It sounds like it can go both ways.

Heather


>
> That said, I learned to read early before 1st grade and then went
onto
> school.
>
> My daughter Kat at 12 has been able to read for a few years but
only started
> reading novels recently.
>
> If a child has all the brain and physical development needed to
read early
> then she'll read early as long as there is enough in the
environment for her
> to figure reading out. (Some will need more of being read to and
> interaction, some will need less.)
>
> Is an early reader at a greater advantage than someone who doesn't
learn to
> read until 11? Society leads us to think so! But there really isn't
any
> advantage. Early readers are just absorbing stuff by reading and
non-readers
> are absorbing just as much through other means. If she'd had the
atmosphere
> she needed earlier she just be an earlier reader, not up
several "levels" in
> knowledge about the world from where she is.
>
> Where unschooling is most nurturing is for kids who will read later
than the
> schools expect them to. They get to learn to read free from
pressure and
> negative atmosphere that makes them feel like there's something
wrong with
> them.
>
> Joyce

[email protected]

>
> From: "heasue2003" <kellyandheather@...>
> Date: 2003/09/25 Thu PM 11:15:56 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Scribbles , is this common?
>
> Is it common for unschooled children to read and write at such a
> yound age?

I think it just has a lot to do with the child and their enviroment. Lyndsey started reading around 2. What she read were words that kept repeating themselves in her enviroment and the books we read to her.

My brother and I both started reading before age 4 but my sister and youngest brother didn't read until 5 or 6. Their enviroment was different as my mom was now parenting 4 kids.

Lydia, mom to Lyndsey who is a baby bee today

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/26/03 10:32:11 AM, kellyandheather@... writes:

<<

I know it doesn't matter. She is who she is partly because of her

life experiences. I love who she is. I guess what I was wanting to

know is whether or not it is common for most unschoolers to read

early. It sounds like it can go both ways. >>

I don't think it's uncommon, but I don't think the majority read "early."

Sandra

Julie Solich

This sounds like my dd at that age (she's almost 6 now)! She went through
some really obsessive periods with writing. I think she learned most of her
letters around 2.5/3 and would write them on long strips of paper. For my
dd -- it was "art". She's always been into drawing, crafts, etc... and I
remain convinced that learning to write has been an extension of her love of
all things art.

Aileen

I have never thought to make that connection before. My daughter (4) loves art and she also loves to write. She will fill books with her scribbles. We often write to each other and I will read my letters/stories to her and she will do the same for me. Lately she has taken to copying words. Yesterday she copied Wizard of Oz from a colouring-in sheet. It's fascinating to watch.
Julie



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aicitticia

With my 4 1/2 yr old I always just sound out these long chains of
letters she writes. Then she *tells* ME what they say :). Especially
at age 3-4 when she was learing how to write all the letters I would
not want to deflate her pride telling her it meant *nothing*. It
meant something to her thats why she wrote it, duh.

Yesterday she wrote in "handwriting" (cursive---lots of squiggles)on
a whole stack of post it notes. She said "Look mom I wrote my first
book". It was very amusing. Even though my cheap nature wanted to
say aloud,,,why did you just *waste* all of my post-it
notes ;)...but alas I heald that back :).

Ticia

Julie Solich

Yesterday she wrote in "handwriting" (cursive---lots of squiggles)on a whole stack of post it notes. She said "Look mom I wrote my first book". It was very amusing. Even though my cheap nature wanted to say aloud,,,why did you just *waste* all of my post-it notes ;)...but alas I heald that back :).

Ticia

Mia has gone through reams of paper with all her scribbling. I used to groan (inwardly) but now I think if she learns to read and write without expensive phonics programs and the like then what does it matter if we go through a couple of hundred dollars in paper over the next few years. So I just think of it as a self-styled reading/handwriting program which makes it good value.

Julie




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/26/03 7:44:57 PM, ticiamama@... writes:

<< With my 4 1/2 yr old I always just sound out these long chains of

letters she writes. Then she *tells* ME what they say :). Especially

at age 3-4 when she was learing how to write all the letters I would

not want to deflate her pride telling her it meant *nothing*. It

meant something to her thats why she wrote it, duh. >>

When my kids were little they would make words with the magnets on the
fridge, or in their own writing, and say "Read this, mom!" and I would pronounce it
phonetically. If I couldn't pronounce it I would say "It needs more vowels!"

"What are vowels?"

I would either say a, e, i, o, u, (sometimes y, technically w)

or I would sort the vowels into one place for them to choose from.

We didn't make a big deal about it, but it was always fun, funny and brief,
and they learned how to make words that COULD be pronounced by mixing vowels in.

And it helped them appreciate why buying a vowel on Wheel of Fortune would be
a really good idea.

We have a computer hangman, too, and sometimes Holly, before she could read,
would want to play it with me.

She would guess letters and I would tell her what the word might be, or what
other letters could be pronounced with that. If there were already more than
half vowels, I'd tell her not to guess any more vowels. We talked about what
letters are most commonly used, and what letters are good in what positions,
or what might be next to "n," etc.

Sandra

Betsy

**When my kids were little they would make words with the magnets on the
fridge, or in their own writing, and say "Read this, mom!" and I would
pronounce it
phonetically. If I couldn't pronounce it I would say "It needs more
vowels!"**

Oh, this brings back memories! I had to pronounce a few unpronounceable
magnet words in my time. A challenge, but a fun one.

This same skill is transferable to reading aloud from _Ella Enchanted_
which has dialog in ogre and giant languages, among others, and some of
those phrases are very consonant heavy and vowel challenged. <g>

Betsy

Tia Leschke

> I know it doesn't matter. She is who she is partly because of her
> life experiences. I love who she is. I guess what I was wanting to
> know is whether or not it is common for most unschoolers to read
> early. It sounds like it can go both ways.

Absolutely! Mine was 12, and even then he was shoved by me. (and only
started reading books for pleasure 3 years later) I often wonder when he
would have done it if I'd left him to it instead of pushing.
Tia
leschke@...

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/27/03 03:46:18 PM Central Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
**When my kids were little they would make words with the magnets on the
fridge, or in their own writing, and say "Read this, mom!" and I would
pronounce it
phonetically. If I couldn't pronounce it I would say "It needs more
vowels!"**

Oh, this brings back memories! I had to pronounce a few unpronounceable
magnet words in my time. A challenge, but a fun one.

This same skill is transferable to reading aloud from _Ella Enchanted_
which has dialog in ogre and giant languages, among others, and some of
those phrases are very consonant heavy and vowel challenged. <g>

Betsy
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Moly used to write sentence long words, gibberish I couldn't begin to
pronounce. I told her it looked like Welsh to me, and how neat it was that she could
write in Welsh. My MIL ever the naysayer, was always asking when Moly would
learn to write and spell properly. One day, Moly told her she could write and
took her journal to grandma to show her. She took one look at it and said; "This
isn't writing!" Moly told her grandma it was so, that it was Welsh. Moly knew
it wasn't Welsh, but she liked to pretend anyway, and she assumed that
grandma would play along too. She got this long lecture on lying and telling
stories, and I got one on not encouraging the kids in frivolous maters that would
surely hamper their education. Some days I really hate that woman.

~Nancy~ Mom to a beautiful girl who doesn't write "Welsh" anymore. >:(


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cynthia Hagedorn

ahhhhhhh

OK, So I just got offf the phone with my sister.... I am shaking I am so angy. I am just wanting to vent and maybe have some input as to what I can say to her or any of my family members,, I know this is just the beginning....

Let me give you a brief background... I come from a family of 5 kids (happened in 7 years) I am the Third child... with two older siblings and two younger siblings... My two older sibling (sisters) have daughters within a year or so of my own daughter age 6. They are the ones that are very into "school" My two younger sibs don't have kids but only add to the opposing opinion.... My Dad doesn't say anything and my mom acts as though I have joined a cult that shaves heads and tortures Lord only knows.... Thankfully we live away from each other and we rarely talk about education. A few times when the subject has come up, my mother FIRMLY mentions her feelings on homeschooling... very much opposing. She is freakishly passive aggresive about it... after the conversations I am always thinking... heyya wait... (It never seems worth going back to clarify)

I feel I am a fairly assertive person. Since my husband I have been married (11 years) we have always done things differently than the rest of our families (sometimes it feels like the world!) . When it came to parenting... ..attachment parenting... child led...whatever it was.. we were different from them.... It is just what *we* chose that worked for us... Overall... We just like to hang out with our kids.. discover life... play.. learn together as a family and lead a *PEACEFUL* life.... From the very beginning we have always gotten the "you shoulds"... the "you better" and on and on... we decided after struggling a few years that we gave up caring about people "shoulding all over us"....

So the first crop of babies are in the area of "school age"........ Arriving at another difference in perspective, parenting and ideals..... Why don't they just leave us alone?!?!

I just said to my husband last night... you know ... it is just a matter of time before we are going to get blasted with "questions" Because it is the fall ... my daughter would be in the first grade... They really are wanting to "talk" about everything... I believe it is so they can give us the"answers" and "save our children" after discussing their concerns.....

Today must have been my lucky day... I just got blasted....

I called my sister kim who lives 45 minutes away.... I was telling her about a warehouse that was selling these software programs for $1 - $4 bucks! She went into this thing about how her daughter (now 2nd grade) has sooo much homework every night that she just can;t see having her do anything else academic.... I said... "wow.. I don;t blame you!!... wow! homework?"... My sister then went on to say how awful it has been.. that she comes home and has to do these sheets on every subject.. " I interjected..(thinking I was being sympathetic) .."That is too bad... what an infringement on family time!"... the light conversation turned,,,,, My sister started talking rapidly.,... (The oh my gosh... I am saying something bad about my prized educational system.. hit her) She went on to say WELL... I was talking to SO MANY of my friends .... they feel it is SO IMPORTANT that they start NOW so that when they are in the 5th grade they are trained to do "important" homework.... She took a
breath.. seeing that I was about to board a train that was going to end in derailment... ... I said.. "oh man... you know what Kim, we just can't talk about this... I feel so very differently... " Defensively she said "Now wait a minute... All my friends think that was SUCH A BLESSING to have that because what are they going to do?.... Get dumped with homework in the 5th grade??"... I repeated.. Kim.. We just have to agree not to talk about this.... I just can't go there.... Kim couldnt get passed that she was trying to "explain" to me that it is SO IMPORTANT to have these daily sheets completed to get prepared.... and really that I should listen to her because "when my daughter gets into the 5th grade she is going tohave to do it too"...... ... what? wait... She just wasn;t getting it... Is there some kind of law out there that every child in the "fifth grade" has to have homework?.... I kept thinking.. she knows we homeschool.... does she think that a teacher comes to our
house and assigns us this???? I calmly said... (probably in a very shakey voice though) Kim... we need to talk about something else.... Kim replied very snotty and in her big sister (15 month older) voice... "What... we can;t talk about my views on education?"

(silent scream)

I continued... Kim.. It isn't about that... I just see things differently.... She just couldn;t get it... She asked... What do YOU do? Getting stupidly caught in a what I thought as an easy answer I responded... well... we unschool. We feel it is important for kids to run jump play, explore, discover and enjoy.... She urgently asked,,, WELL.. what DO you DO on a typical day? She went on and said... asked?.... I mean your daughter Obviously knows how to read... I took a deep breath and said... That is just it Kim... WHY is it so obvious that she should know how to read? Our society deems intelligence based on reading and writing,,, we don't... whether she can read or not or any child for that matter.... I tried using the analogy of a child learning to walk... they get their on their own time.... I then said (knowing that I had already said too much in a no win situation) We don't learn A to Z we learn the letters as we live.. in the end we have a complete set.... She
jumped in... We did too.. we taught H first and then.. and then,,,, She just couldn't get it.. Then she asked,. "Well what do you do on a typical day??" I said every day is different.. She said.. Do you do math with her (asking in a total flabergasted tone) I said, yes. we cook..... "You cook." she replied in a very bewildered condescending way.... I said... yeah, you should see how she has picked up on her fractions... My two year old started crying in the background.... She asked... when do you teach her things...? I wasn't responding because I was talking to my little guy... I could hear her chattering about something... My son started crying more... I picked him up... She then asked... in a very.. sweet calm way as if the title to me was going to be.... "Honey,"... then she asked..(firing them out).. Do you ever get a break from your kids? Are you and your daughter ever apart from each other? Do they get the opportunity to learn from other people other than
you?.... I simply said.. when she wants art we go to an artist,, when we need science she goes to a scientist at a college... history in a museum...

really getting frustrated because I feel they get so much from everybody.. including us... but in their way.... I said... Kim... gotta go... before I could say anything else.. SHE said,, GOOD BYE and hung up on me.

ahhhhhhhhhhhh Do I come from a freakishly narrow minded family? Has anyone ever encountered this? I get the lovely opportunity to be with the older-sibling-hens that will have a field day over just this conversation.... I know I need to just let it go.. but yowsee.

Another really concerning area... Kims daughter that is in the second grade - just 4 months older than my daughter whom we say is in the 1st grade... is CONSTANTLY grilling my daughter about everything.... She obviously gets things from her mother... Her cousin asks... are you really homeschooled? What is 2 plus 2? She will brag about a field trip they went on or what they do at recess..... I have HEARD it... In the past I have said.. wow... sounds like fun... we do crazy things like that too.... (What I really want to do is slam dunk her... I hate that in me!) What in the heck do I say to my daughter??? I don;t want her to be nasty, but I don;t want her to feel walked on either???!!

HELP~!

Cynthia




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Betsy

**Moly used to write sentence long words, gibberish I couldn't begin to
pronounce. I told her it looked like Welsh to me, and how neat it was
that she could
write in Welsh.**

A very useful skill. Didn't Shyrley say she submitted her "plan of
instruction" to the state of Virginia in Welsh?

Betsy

joylyn

Oh man this sounds just like conversations with my extended relatives.

What is so funny is how a few have come around.

I was considered crazy cause I also did child led weaning, nursed in
public etc. My cousin wasn't sucessful at breastfeeding her first but
she did her 2nd. Now she is convinced breastfeeding is the way, when
she really was rather mean to me before.

I was called crazy for homeschooling.

Alison is now homeschooling.

Personally I would talk about the weather and california politics and
avoid topics like homeschooling.

Joylyn

Cynthia Hagedorn wrote:

> ahhhhhhh
>
> OK, So I just got offf the phone with my sister.... I am shaking I am
> so angy. I am just wanting to vent and maybe have some input as to
> what I can say to her or any of my family members,, I know this is
> just the beginning....
>
> Let me give you a brief background... I come from a family of 5 kids
> (happened in 7 years) I am the Third child... with two older siblings
> and two younger siblings... My two older sibling (sisters) have
> daughters within a year or so of my own daughter age 6. They are the
> ones that are very into "school" My two younger sibs don't have kids
> but only add to the opposing opinion.... My Dad doesn't say anything
> and my mom acts as though I have joined a cult that shaves heads and
> tortures Lord only knows.... Thankfully we live away from each other
> and we rarely talk about education. A few times when the subject has
> come up, my mother FIRMLY mentions her feelings on homeschooling...
> very much opposing. She is freakishly passive aggresive about it...
> after the conversations I am always thinking... heyya wait... (It
> never seems worth going back to clarify)
>
> I feel I am a fairly assertive person. Since my husband I have been
> married (11 years) we have always done things differently than the
> rest of our families (sometimes it feels like the world!) . When it
> came to parenting... ..attachment parenting... child led...whatever
> it was.. we were different from them.... It is just what *we* chose
> that worked for us... Overall... We just like to hang out with our
> kids.. discover life... play.. learn together as a family and lead a
> *PEACEFUL* life.... From the very beginning we have always gotten the
> "you shoulds"... the "you better" and on and on... we decided after
> struggling a few years that we gave up caring about people "shoulding
> all over us"....
>
> So the first crop of babies are in the area of "school age"........
> Arriving at another difference in perspective, parenting and
> ideals..... Why don't they just leave us alone?!?!
>
> I just said to my husband last night... you know ... it is just a
> matter of time before we are going to get blasted with "questions"
> Because it is the fall ... my daughter would be in the first grade...
> They really are wanting to "talk" about everything... I believe it is
> so they can give us the"answers" and "save our children" after
> discussing their concerns.....
>
> Today must have been my lucky day... I just got blasted....
>
> I called my sister kim who lives 45 minutes away.... I was telling
> her about a warehouse that was selling these software programs for $1
> - $4 bucks! She went into this thing about how her daughter (now 2nd
> grade) has sooo much homework every night that she just can;t see
> having her do anything else academic.... I said... "wow.. I don;t
> blame you!!... wow! homework?"... My sister then went on to say how
> awful it has been.. that she comes home and has to do these sheets on
> every subject.. " I interjected..(thinking I was being sympathetic)
> .."That is too bad... what an infringement on family time!"... the
> light conversation turned,,,,, My sister started talking rapidly.,...
> (The oh my gosh... I am saying something bad about my prized
> educational system.. hit her) She went on to say WELL... I was
> talking to SO MANY of my friends .... they feel it is SO IMPORTANT
> that they start NOW so that when they are in the 5th grade they are
> trained to do "important" homework.... She took a
> breath.. seeing that I was about to board a train that was going to
> end in derailment... ... I said.. "oh man... you know what Kim, we
> just can't talk about this... I feel so very differently... "
> Defensively she said "Now wait a minute... All my friends think that
> was SUCH A BLESSING to have that because what are they going to
> do?.... Get dumped with homework in the 5th grade??"... I repeated..
> Kim.. We just have to agree not to talk about this.... I just can't go
> there.... Kim couldnt get passed that she was trying to "explain" to
> me that it is SO IMPORTANT to have these daily sheets completed to get
> prepared.... and really that I should listen to her because "when my
> daughter gets into the 5th grade she is going tohave to do it
> too"...... ... what? wait... She just wasn;t getting it... Is there
> some kind of law out there that every child in the "fifth grade" has
> to have homework?.... I kept thinking.. she knows we homeschool....
> does she think that a teacher comes to our
> house and assigns us this???? I calmly said... (probably in a very
> shakey voice though) Kim... we need to talk about something else....
> Kim replied very snotty and in her big sister (15 month older)
> voice... "What... we can;t talk about my views on education?"
>
> (silent scream)
>
> I continued... Kim.. It isn't about that... I just see things
> differently.... She just couldn;t get it... She asked... What do YOU
> do? Getting stupidly caught in a what I thought as an easy answer I
> responded... well... we unschool. We feel it is important for kids to
> run jump play, explore, discover and enjoy.... She urgently asked,,,
> WELL.. what DO you DO on a typical day? She went on and said...
> asked?.... I mean your daughter Obviously knows how to read... I
> took a deep breath and said... That is just it Kim... WHY is it so
> obvious that she should know how to read? Our society deems
> intelligence based on reading and writing,,, we don't... whether she
> can read or not or any child for that matter.... I tried using the
> analogy of a child learning to walk... they get their on their own
> time.... I then said (knowing that I had already said too much in a
> no win situation) We don't learn A to Z we learn the letters as we
> live.. in the end we have a complete set.... She
> jumped in... We did too.. we taught H first and then.. and then,,,,
> She just couldn't get it.. Then she asked,. "Well what do you do on a
> typical day??" I said every day is different.. She said.. Do you do
> math with her (asking in a total flabergasted tone) I said, yes. we
> cook..... "You cook." she replied in a very bewildered
> condescending way.... I said... yeah, you should see how she has
> picked up on her fractions... My two year old started crying in the
> background.... She asked... when do you teach her things...? I
> wasn't responding because I was talking to my little guy... I could
> hear her chattering about something... My son started crying more...
> I picked him up... She then asked... in a very.. sweet calm way as if
> the title to me was going to be.... "Honey,"... then she
> asked..(firing them out).. Do you ever get a break from your kids?
> Are you and your daughter ever apart from each other? Do they get the
> opportunity to learn from other people other than
> you?.... I simply said.. when she wants art we go to an artist,, when
> we need science she goes to a scientist at a college... history in a
> museum...
>
> really getting frustrated because I feel they get so much from
> everybody.. including us... but in their way.... I said... Kim...
> gotta go... before I could say anything else.. SHE said,, GOOD
> BYE and hung up on me.
>
> ahhhhhhhhhhhh Do I come from a freakishly narrow minded family? Has
> anyone ever encountered this? I get the lovely opportunity to be with
> the older-sibling-hens that will have a field day over just this
> conversation.... I know I need to just let it go.. but yowsee.
>
> Another really concerning area... Kims daughter that is in the second
> grade - just 4 months older than my daughter whom we say is in the 1st
> grade... is CONSTANTLY grilling my daughter about everything.... She
> obviously gets things from her mother... Her cousin asks... are you
> really homeschooled? What is 2 plus 2? She will brag about a field
> trip they went on or what they do at recess..... I have HEARD it...
> In the past I have said.. wow... sounds like fun... we do crazy
> things like that too.... (What I really want to do is slam dunk
> her... I hate that in me!) What in the heck do I say to my
> daughter??? I don;t want her to be nasty, but I don;t want her to
> feel walked on either???!!
>
> HELP~!
>
> Cynthia
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

on 9/26/03 6:29 PM, aicitticia at ticiamama@... wrote:

> Yesterday she wrote in "handwriting" (cursive---lots of squiggles)on
> a whole stack of post it notes. She said "Look mom I wrote my first
> book". It was very amusing. Even though my cheap nature wanted to
> say aloud,,,why did you just *waste* all of my post-it
> notes ;)...but alas I heald that back :).

Good mommy :-) My son makes animation flip-books out of every post-it note
pad in the house, one going forward, then one on the backs of the pages.
They only take up the bottom edge, but I just hate to use them and peel off
pages, because some are pure genius. Most are violent, of course, but he is
13, after all.

Nancy

Ticia

My brother used to do this (the animation thing) on pads of paper. His were very violent complete with heads being blown off etc. He is now a VERY wonderful artist who loves to paint and draw the human body. He also still has his fondness for *disturbing* art (very H.R. Geiger IMO)...I love him and his creations.

Ticia

----- Original Message -----
From: Nancy Wooton
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Scribbles , is this common?


on 9/26/03 6:29 PM, aicitticia at ticiamama@... wrote:

> Yesterday she wrote in "handwriting" (cursive---lots of squiggles)on
> a whole stack of post it notes. She said "Look mom I wrote my first
> book". It was very amusing. Even though my cheap nature wanted to
> say aloud,,,why did you just *waste* all of my post-it
> notes ;)...but alas I heald that back :).

Good mommy :-) My son makes animation flip-books out of every post-it note
pad in the house, one going forward, then one on the backs of the pages.
They only take up the bottom edge, but I just hate to use them and peel off
pages, because some are pure genius. Most are violent, of course, but he is
13, after all.

Nancy


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

Cynthia, you're not alone. :) My relatives generally know better than to go
after me, but from time to time one of them freaks. Usually it comes from
either defensiveness of their own choices (like I suspect your sister's
kitten-fit originated) or genuine concern for our children and our bizarre
philosophies. Lately my mother just complains about me to my sister and my
sister smiles and nods and ignores her. Works for me. <g>

If you stay calm and simply don't try to go into lengthy detail with someone
you KNOW has no interest in "getting it" (like, I'm sorry to say, your
sister! :P) it goes better.

One thing that works for some unschooling families is to give the concerned
relatives a few books (if you can afford it) and/or a few websites, and/or
just a reading list for them to fill themselves, and tell them, kindly,
"Look, I know what I'm doing is new to you and seems odd. I've done a lot of
research and I'm really comfortable with my decision. If you want to learn
more, my suggestion is you..." (give books, website or book list at this
point) "...and if you want to talk about it after you've done some research,
I'd be glad to. Until then, you're just going to have to trust me and if we
can't change the subject I'm going to hang up and go bake some cookies."

You can refuse to engage. The phone has an off switch and you have your own
set of car keys and sturdy locks on your doors. If your sister won't drop
the subject, tell her, "I'm not going to talk about this. I'm going to go
now, I'll talk to you later. Bye!"

As for the grilling niece, does your daughter actually feel walked on or is
it just you? Don't fall into the trap (easy to do for any of us!) of
projecting your worries onto her. She may not mind at all hearing about the
field trips or being quizzed. But ask her, "Hey, did anything Hortensia said
tonight bother you?" Be ready to talk to her if she is upset, watch her play
and behavior and smile and grit your teeth during the visits, LOL. Doesn't
hurt if before the next visit you and your daughter go do something very
cool the day before. Doesn't hurt to limit family visits if they hurt any of
you rather than help.

Pam

Betsy

**My brother used to do this (the animation thing) on pads of paper.**

The Animorphs series of books all have a flip-art of a human "morphing"
to animal. Fun.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/28/2003 1:09:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

>
> The Animorphs series of books all have a flip-art of a human "morphing"
> to animal. Fun.
>

My son's current favorite books (Captain Underpants and Ricky Ricotta) have
what they call Flip-O-Ramas too.
Amy Kagey
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