[email protected]

Hi all,
I am in two homeschool groups in this area, for the play groups. That is the
only thing that we go to. Anyway... One group knows we are unschoolers and I
feel I can talk with the parents etc. The second group we are just getting
started with and like I said we only attend the play group, it isn't
important to me that I have friendships with the parents.

Having said that, the second group has an E mail list that is supposed to be
for informational purposes like letting everyone know about a group trip
coming up etc. Every once in a while I get some little junk E mail poem or
Bible quote, but not often and I usually just delete. But this morning I got
a poem (which I cut and pasted below) and just wonder how you all would deal
with it. Would you respond, I hate for all those people on the list to think
that everyone agrees with the statement it makes? Or would you delete it
since the list isn't a discussion list and I really don't care what those
parents think? If I respond I will be in the minority, not that I care. The
poem just rubbed me the wrong way today, made all the little hairs on the
back of my neck stand up.

And the woman posting it was basically saying that none of "our" children
would dare try to express themselves, or even think they have rights. And
the thought of a mother squashing those rights is cool. Remember I live in
the Bible Belt.

So against my grain Maybe I should just sit on it for a day and see if I
still have the same gut reaction tomorrow. I know what I would say just
wondering if I should say it or let it pass?
Thanks
Pam G.

 >>>"I know that NONE of our kids would have an attitude like this :-) but
couldn't resist....Have a great weekend ,. -----
 
Don't mess with MOM!!! OUTSTANDING!
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>My son came home from school one day,
>>with a smirk upon his face.
>>He decided he was smart enough,
>>to put me in my place.
>>
>>"Guess what I learned in Civics Two,
>>that's taught by Mr. Wright?
>>It's all about the laws today,
>>The "Children's Bill of Rights."
>>
>>It says I need not clean my room,
>>don't have to cut my hair.
>>No one can tell me what to think,
>>or speak, or what to wear.
>>
>>I have freedom from religion,
>>and regardless what you say,
>>I don't have to bow my head,
>>and I sure don't have to pray.
>>
>>I can wear earrings if I want,
>>and pierce my tongue &nose.
>>I can read &watch just what I like,
>>and get tattoos from head to toes.
>>
>>And if you ever spank me,
>>I'll charge you with a crime.
>>I'll back up all my charges,
>>with the marks on my behind.
>>
>>Don't you ever touch me,
>>my body's only for my use,
>>not for your hugs and kisses,
>>that's just more child abuse.
>>
>>Don't preach about your morals,
>>like your Mama did to you.
>>That's nothing more than mind control,
>>and it's illegal too!
>>
>>Mom, I have these children's rights,
>>so you can't influence me,
>>or I'll call Children's Services Division,
>>better known as C.S.D.
>>
>>Of course my first instinct was
>>To toss him out the door.
>>But the chance to teach him a lesson
>>made me think a little more.
>>
>>I mulled it over carefully,
>>I couldn't let this go.
>>A smile crept upon my face,
>>He's messing with a pro.
>>
>>The next day I took him shopping
>>at the local Goodwill Store.
>>I told him,
>>"Pick out all you want,
>>there's shirts &pants galore.
>>
>>I've called and checked with C.S.D.
>>who said they didn't care
>>if I bought you K-Mart shoes
>>instead of those Nike Airs.
>>
>>And I've canceled that appointment
>>to take your driver's test.
>>The C.S.D. is unconcerned
>>so I'll decide what's best.
>>
>>I said "No time to stop and eat,
>>or pick up stuff to munch.
>>And tomorrow you can start to learn
>>to make your own sack lunch.
>>
>>Just save the raging appetite,
>>and wait till dinner time.
>>We're having liver and onions,
>>a favorite dish of mine.
>>
>>He asked "Can I please rent a movie,
>>to watch on my VCR?"
>>"Sorry, but I sold your TV,
>>for new tires on my car.
>>
>>I also rented out your room,
>>you'll take the couch instead.
>>All the C.S.D. requires is
>>a roof for over your head.
>>
>>Your clothing won't be trendy now,
>>and I'll choose what we eat.
>>That allowance that you used to get,
>>will buy me something neat.
>>
>>I'm selling off your jet ski,
>>dirt-bike &roller blades.
>>Check out the "Parents Bill of Rights,"
>>It's in effect today!
>>
>>Hey hot shot,
>>are you crying,
>>and why are you on your knees?
>>Are you asking God to help you out,
>>instead of C.S.D..?<<<<
>>
>





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dkallas <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], genant2@a... wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am in two homeschool groups in this area, for the play groups.
That is the
> only thing that we go to. Anyway... One group knows we are
unschoolers and I
> feel I can talk with the parents etc. The second group we are
just getting
> started with and like I said we only attend the play group, it
isn't
> important to me that I have friendships with the parents.

So you are using the second group for its play group and e-mail
list, but you object to the group using you to share amongst
themselves?

Do you think that perhaps your attendance at their play group is
disingenuous? I'll bet that they ARE looking for friends for both
themselves and their children through their playgroup and list and
you are essentially an intruder in their midst.

While I too find the poem offensive, I would defend their right to
have a group that supports them and you are clearly not part of
their group. Time for you to move on?

Barb Eaton

Pam G,
I've seen this one before too. :-( Why is this any different than the
ones you have deleted? It's junk. You said it's not a discussion list
anyway. My .02


Barb E
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder




on 3/1/03 10:24 AM, genant2@... at genant2@... wrote:
Every once in a while I get some little junk E mail poem or
> Bible quote, but not often and I usually just delete.
>
> So against my grain Maybe I should just sit on it for a day and see if I
> still have the same gut reaction tomorrow. I know what I would say just
> wondering if I should say it or let it pass?
> Thanks
> Pam G.

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:24:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, genant2 writes:

> So against my grain Maybe I should just sit on it for a day and see if I
> still have the same gut reaction tomorrow. I know what I
> would say just
> wondering if I should say it or let it pass?
> Thanks
> Pam G.

Pam,

This came on the Pentecostal list I'm on (I know, I know---but I sometimes just like to stir things up! <G>)

I replied that it was VERY sad that a mother would treat a child, whom she supposedly LOVES, so disrepectfully. That, by modeling such disrespect, she should expect the same as the child matures. How very, very sad!

The poster wrote back that it was *just* a joke---a poem. What was I getting so upset about? I let it go.

There are some real flakes on that list. I hate that they are representative of homeschoolers. (But they probably think the same of me! <G>

Like I said, I like to stir things up sometimes!

~Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/2003 9:26:00 AM Central Standard Time, genant2@...
writes:

> Or would you delete it
> since the list isn't a discussion list and I really don't care what those
> parents think?

If it's not a discussion list, then why are folks allowed to lob vollies
across the bow?

I've been on a list or two like that (for some reason, they're always LOCAL
lists). On one I just took to posting something that someone else wrote from
the exact opposite view. They didn't like it. hmmmm.

Yeah, and that particular poem pisses me off!

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:39:27 AM Central Standard Time,
dkallas@... writes:

> While I too find the poem offensive, I would defend their right to
> have a group that supports them and you are clearly not part of
> their group. Time for you to move on?
>

But she said it wasn't a DISCUSSION list. Just for making arrangements. So
why send something to the loop that would obviously generate discussion, when
you can't discuss it?

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dkallas <[email protected]>

> But she said it wasn't a DISCUSSION list. Just for making
arrangements. So
> why send something to the loop that would obviously generate
discussion, when
> you can't discuss it?
>
> Tuck

She also said that she lives in an area where this kind of attitude
is common, so it wouldn't be EXPECTED to generate discussion. The
poem's sender obviously thought she was sending to a group of like-
minded people.

My answer is meant to go to the bigger question of why involve
yourself with people who are fundamentally not like you and then
insist that they conform to your values and beliefs? Isn't that
just a set up for frustration? Aren't most play groups designed to
support the participants and for possible long-term relationships?

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/03 11:39:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dkallas@... writes:

> Do you think that perhaps your attendance at their play group is
> disingenuous? I'll bet that they ARE looking for friends for both
> themselves and their children through their playgroup and list and
> you are essentially an intruder in their midst.
>
>

The group is labeled as inclusive and nonreligious. And the list is supposed
to be used for dissemination of information regarding group activities. And
yes, I am only using the group for the play group. There are no rules
like...you have to participate in X number of activities etc. And they may
be looking for friends. They do have Mom's night out and other parent
directed activities that I do not participate in. I am new to the group and
maybe everyone else in the group thinks the way this Mom does but I guess I
feel that if the group is "inclusive" then consideration should be given to
people who do not believe the same way. Anyway just rambling as I think
about this.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/03 11:39:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dkallas@... writes:

> you are clearly not part of
> their group. Time for you to move on?
>
>
>

I agree I am not part of their group, I am new. But my boys love the play
group and that is what I go for. Before I would leave I think I would just
shut my mouth and remember why I am there.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

on 3/1/03 9:57 AM, genant2@... at genant2@... wrote:

> The group is labeled as inclusive and nonreligious. And the list is supposed
> to be used for dissemination of information regarding group activities. And
> yes, I am only using the group for the play group. There are no rules
> like...you have to participate in X number of activities etc. And they may
> be looking for friends. They do have Mom's night out and other parent
> directed activities that I do not participate in. I am new to the group and
> maybe everyone else in the group thinks the way this Mom does but I guess I
> feel that if the group is "inclusive" then consideration should be given to
> people who do not believe the same way. Anyway just rambling as I think
> about this.

If it is supposed to be nonreligious, I suggest you get more involved; go to
the Mom's night out, make yourself known. It could be there is one person -
the one sending the posts - who is imposing her views, contrary to the rest
of the group. It must be attracting people who desire a nonreligious group,
but maybe they're like you, thinking they are all alone.

You might send an email to the person who sent it, suggesting that not
everyone on the list appreciates that type of "inspiration," and that she
stick to business.

Nancy


--
The fact that astronomies change while the stars abide is a true analogy of
every realm of human life and thought, religion not least of all. No
existent theology can be a final formulation of spiritual truth.
-Harry Emerson Fosdick, preacher and author (1878-1969)

Kerrin or Ralph Taylor

Hi Pam,

I understand your being upset about this poem. It's just sick in my opinion. It reminds me of someone on my local group. I thought I was having a good discussion with about autonomy, and then out of the blue he sent a post which contained "Just like a garden left to grow weeds, children , if left to themselves will produce evil" I still haven't decided what to say to that! I was amazed, as he has always seemed so sensible! Is it even worth talking to these people? And is this attitude a general christian thing or what?

Kerrin.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

on 3/1/03 10:22 AM, Kerrin or Ralph Taylor at kerrin@... wrote:

> I understand your being upset about this poem. It's just sick in my opinion.
> It reminds me of someone on my local group. I thought I was having a good
> discussion with about autonomy, and then out of the blue he sent a post which
> contained "Just like a garden left to grow weeds, children , if left to
> themselves will produce evil" I still haven't decided what to say to that! I
> was amazed, as he has always seemed so sensible! Is it even worth talking to
> these people? And is this attitude a general christian thing or what?


Was that the motto of the German guy who invented kindergarten?

and anyway, it's only the uses people make of them which determine weeds
from plants... (I tell myself this when looking at my yard <gg>)

Nancy

Nathaline <[email protected]

Hi Pam,

You mentioned not having connections with the parents in that
group...you might want to spend some time getting to know them. If
you then find that the group as a whole has the view of the poem,
you could move on. It is great that you have the option of a couple
groups to choose from!

Nathaline

Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema

>and then out of the blue he sent a post which contained "Just like a
>garden left to grow weeds, children , if left to themselves will produce
>evil" I still haven't decided what to say to that! I was amazed, as he has
>always seemed so sensible! Is it even worth talking to these people? And
>is this attitude a general christian thing or what?

I'm afraid it is rather a X-tian thing, always being on the lookout for and
fighting against evil. ...watching for it in 'our' hearts, etc. I'm no
longer of the Xtian belief system, but I lived it growing up.

What I'd say to him is, "Only if their parents were evil and that is all
they know."
..and leave it at that.
Poor kids.
HeidiWD

Peggy

Pam G wrote:

> Having said that, the second group has an E mail list that is supposed to be
> for informational purposes like letting everyone know about a group trip
> coming up etc. Every once in a while I get some little junk E mail poem or
> Bible quote, but not often and I usually just delete. But this morning I got
> a poem (which I cut and pasted below) and just wonder how you all would deal
> with it. Would you respond, I hate for all those people on the list to think
> that everyone agrees with the statement it makes? Or would you delete it
> since the list isn't a discussion list and I really don't care what those
> parents think? If I respond I will be in the minority, not that I care. The
> poem just rubbed me the wrong way today, made all the little hairs on the
> back of my neck stand up.
>
> And the woman posting it was basically saying that none of "our" children
> would dare try to express themselves, or even think they have rights. And
> the thought of a mother squashing those rights is cool. Remember I live in
> the Bible Belt.

I've seen this floating around and was horrified too, even sent it to a
friend expressing my dismay with the point of view and she told me she
was so glad that I had -- because, get this, her *mother* then sent it
on to her saying what a great poem she thought it was! She said she was
glad she'd seen it first and had time to process the negativity before
she received her mom's email. :/

Anyway, I think there is a great segment of the population, either
childless or with their kids grown and they are so out of touch with
them, that they just don't see how awful the sentiments really are.
Since it's making the email rounds I would take it less seriously than a
private post from someone who articulates those same feelings in their
own words. Sometimes people just aren't that thoughtful about stuff that
they forward on. No sense getting into a discussion on a hometown list
that will just lead to less feelings of respect between the members.

On the other hand, it might be a good opportunity to take one of the
more objectionable sections of it, one that almost anyone would be
appalled at, and state your own feelings of dismay at reading it,
without implicating the original poster in any way.

Just my 2 cents worth

Peggy

katherand2003

I agree that these views are common in many Christian circles.
However, they are distorted and "taken out of context" to fit a
rather blackhearted outlook, and not proper scriptural
interpretation. What a horrible email... ew! It's a paranoia that
many Christians have-- that the world is out to "get" them --which
is sometimes true but mostly not... so much so that many Christians
try to fight the evil out of their children. Tragically
destructive. We would all like to simplify and categorize because
it would seem neater to think about things, people and situations
like that, but life is much more complex.

Kathe

--- In [email protected], Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
<heidi@d...> wrote:
>
>
> >and then out of the blue he sent a post which contained "Just
like a
> >garden left to grow weeds, children , if left to themselves will
produce
> >evil" I still haven't decided what to say to that! I was amazed,
as he has
> >always seemed so sensible! Is it even worth talking to these
people? And
> >is this attitude a general christian thing or what?
>
> I'm afraid it is rather a X-tian thing, always being on the
lookout for and
> fighting against evil. ...watching for it in 'our' hearts, etc.
I'm no
> longer of the Xtian belief system, but I lived it growing up.
>
> What I'd say to him is, "Only if their parents were evil and that
is all
> they know."
> ..and leave it at that.
> Poor kids.
> HeidiWD

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2005 10:14:34 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
katherand2003@... writes:

Is it even worth talking to these
people? And
> >is this attitude a general christian thing or what?



Not worth talking to them.
General fundamentalist attitude.
He was generous not to suggest (as some do) that babies are born sinful.

Sandra


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