[AlwaysLearning] Hey Cheryl
Nanci Kuykendall
>Right now my husband stays in Seattle while he worksRight now Tom works away from home during the week and
>at Boeing and comes home on weekends and that works
>ok for us right now.....
>Cheryl
comes home on the weekends too. He's looking for work
nearby, but in the meantime this is what works. What
a coincidence, considering that we are also neighbors.
Your boys are quite a bit older than mine, but maybe
they won't mind coming out to hike and explore on our
acerage sometime, or watch movies or something, during
the weekdays, so two alone moms could visit. Or maybe
we could get together someplace (one of the countless
beaches?) between your place and mine. I know some
kids really enjoy playing with younger children
sometimes and some don't. Thomas is 6 and Alex is 4.
Nanci K.
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
Okay, I need a little reality check. ...alright, I need a BIG reality check.
Here's the situation.
I have two kids. One is 16, Rachael, awesome (of course), who was in a
'progressive' private school (her decision) until 8th grade, then a charter
high for a few months, and is now unschooling her high school years. The
second kid, Damian is 13, in seventh grade at the same 'progressive'
private school in 7th grade (it goes to 8th), is dyslexic so he writes
extremely slowly but loves the school for its Acivities (he's making
chainmail at the moment) and his friends there.
Damian was having a meltdown a few months back over homework he wasn't able
to get done in time - and he was exhausted, it was late, etc, etc. I wrote
on his homework that I was not going to require him to do homework during
family time and at Damian's request, wrote another note saying that this
idea was mine, not Damians. (He wanted the teacher to not get mad at
him.) I later confirmed with the teacher that life was okay with this
decision and she made some murmurings about it being alright and that
they'd find a way to get the work done in school or something.
I just found out how she's been getting her work done.
She's been keeping Damian in during lunch EVERY SINGLE DAY to get his 'LATE
WORK' done. He can't remember the last time he had a lunch free. Every
single day his friends from 7th and 8th grade have been gathering on the
steps to chat, reconnect, plan after-school activities and eat their
lunches... and Damian's been kept inside. I just had a
trying-to-be-nonchalant-but-not-very-effectively chat with the boy about it
and he seems to feel that he NEEDS to do the homework because otherwise
he's not going to learn anything and he wants to be successful with his life.
I'm about to scream with rage and frustration, not at the boy, but at the
teacher and the stupid ficking society that says homework is more important
than family, friends, activities and that if it's not done, a kid will be
stupid and not have a good life. Never MIND that it's costing an arm and a
leg to keep him in the stupid fricking school too!
I want to pull him immediately, even though it's his choice to BE at that
school because that viewpoint is so whacked out I can hardly stand it. I
want to un-brainwash him! I want an intervention!!!
I want to honor his wishes to stay with his friends at the school, but I
also don't know how much of that desire is prompted by the idea that if
he's not 'taught', he won't learn anything, so he needs a 'teacher',
complete with homework.
Intending to bolster the argument about not needing homework and the joys
of unschooling, I asked Rachael to talk about how she's doing with the
unschooling thing and she said, "I don't agree with having homework, but
I'm learning jack-shit." Blew me out of the water. Here's a bright,
intelligent girl who can dye hair almost any color (usually a bright one),
can build webpages, work with digital images, handle more than 5 chat rooms
at a time, taught herself to knit, planned her own trip to Oregon on
Amtrak, including paying for it... and all she can say is that she doesn't
know geometry well enough. I ask her why she thinks she'll need geometry
and can't she brush up on it when she really needs it and she just
shrugs. Meanwhile her brother is sitting there just nodding his head,
saying, "see what I mean?"
ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally told them that they had
blown me out of the water and I needed a little while alone to write to you
guys and figure out what is going on (and maybe even get some suggestions
on how to handle it.) I also wasn't the coolest because I just went inside
to find Rae with one of her unschooling buddies (my honorary second
daughter) and I blew up, asking the buddy to explain to Rae how bright and
intelligent she is and how few other kids would be able to manage to get
themselves up to Oregon and back again successfully on their own, yadda,
yadda, yadda. I then proceeded to burst into tears.
Way to stay cool, mom.
So, any ideas?
Heidi-the-blown-away-and-seriously-mind-ficked...
Where is my Tahitian island when I need it?
Here's the situation.
I have two kids. One is 16, Rachael, awesome (of course), who was in a
'progressive' private school (her decision) until 8th grade, then a charter
high for a few months, and is now unschooling her high school years. The
second kid, Damian is 13, in seventh grade at the same 'progressive'
private school in 7th grade (it goes to 8th), is dyslexic so he writes
extremely slowly but loves the school for its Acivities (he's making
chainmail at the moment) and his friends there.
Damian was having a meltdown a few months back over homework he wasn't able
to get done in time - and he was exhausted, it was late, etc, etc. I wrote
on his homework that I was not going to require him to do homework during
family time and at Damian's request, wrote another note saying that this
idea was mine, not Damians. (He wanted the teacher to not get mad at
him.) I later confirmed with the teacher that life was okay with this
decision and she made some murmurings about it being alright and that
they'd find a way to get the work done in school or something.
I just found out how she's been getting her work done.
She's been keeping Damian in during lunch EVERY SINGLE DAY to get his 'LATE
WORK' done. He can't remember the last time he had a lunch free. Every
single day his friends from 7th and 8th grade have been gathering on the
steps to chat, reconnect, plan after-school activities and eat their
lunches... and Damian's been kept inside. I just had a
trying-to-be-nonchalant-but-not-very-effectively chat with the boy about it
and he seems to feel that he NEEDS to do the homework because otherwise
he's not going to learn anything and he wants to be successful with his life.
I'm about to scream with rage and frustration, not at the boy, but at the
teacher and the stupid ficking society that says homework is more important
than family, friends, activities and that if it's not done, a kid will be
stupid and not have a good life. Never MIND that it's costing an arm and a
leg to keep him in the stupid fricking school too!
I want to pull him immediately, even though it's his choice to BE at that
school because that viewpoint is so whacked out I can hardly stand it. I
want to un-brainwash him! I want an intervention!!!
I want to honor his wishes to stay with his friends at the school, but I
also don't know how much of that desire is prompted by the idea that if
he's not 'taught', he won't learn anything, so he needs a 'teacher',
complete with homework.
Intending to bolster the argument about not needing homework and the joys
of unschooling, I asked Rachael to talk about how she's doing with the
unschooling thing and she said, "I don't agree with having homework, but
I'm learning jack-shit." Blew me out of the water. Here's a bright,
intelligent girl who can dye hair almost any color (usually a bright one),
can build webpages, work with digital images, handle more than 5 chat rooms
at a time, taught herself to knit, planned her own trip to Oregon on
Amtrak, including paying for it... and all she can say is that she doesn't
know geometry well enough. I ask her why she thinks she'll need geometry
and can't she brush up on it when she really needs it and she just
shrugs. Meanwhile her brother is sitting there just nodding his head,
saying, "see what I mean?"
ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally told them that they had
blown me out of the water and I needed a little while alone to write to you
guys and figure out what is going on (and maybe even get some suggestions
on how to handle it.) I also wasn't the coolest because I just went inside
to find Rae with one of her unschooling buddies (my honorary second
daughter) and I blew up, asking the buddy to explain to Rae how bright and
intelligent she is and how few other kids would be able to manage to get
themselves up to Oregon and back again successfully on their own, yadda,
yadda, yadda. I then proceeded to burst into tears.
Way to stay cool, mom.
So, any ideas?
Heidi-the-blown-away-and-seriously-mind-ficked...
Where is my Tahitian island when I need it?
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/03 5:51:57 PM, heidi@... writes:
<< Never MIND that it's costing an arm and a
leg to keep him in the stupid fricking school too! >>
You can buy chain-mail kits, online, easily, and for cheaper than a month's
tuition, no doubt. He wouldn't have to make the same chain-mail stuff the
others are making..
Invite his lunch buddies over regularly, to do chain mail or play video games
or whatever they want to do.
This is a sad part, and might never come into play; it's just the realistic
worst-scenario play: If those kids don't want to bother to come over, then
they weren't really friends, they were just friendly inmates, like prison
roommates guys might miss if they're discharged.
But probably they WILL want to visit. Maybe you could do a movie-date once a
week and leave the boys there, since they're used to school, not used to
hanging around with moms.
Sandra
<< Never MIND that it's costing an arm and a
leg to keep him in the stupid fricking school too! >>
You can buy chain-mail kits, online, easily, and for cheaper than a month's
tuition, no doubt. He wouldn't have to make the same chain-mail stuff the
others are making..
Invite his lunch buddies over regularly, to do chain mail or play video games
or whatever they want to do.
This is a sad part, and might never come into play; it's just the realistic
worst-scenario play: If those kids don't want to bother to come over, then
they weren't really friends, they were just friendly inmates, like prison
roommates guys might miss if they're discharged.
But probably they WILL want to visit. Maybe you could do a movie-date once a
week and leave the boys there, since they're used to school, not used to
hanging around with moms.
Sandra
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
Yeah although the problem is that He Doesn't WANT TO LEAVE THE frickin'
SCHOOL!
How do we get past that?!! ...oh, or are you saying to do (the below)
while he stays in the school?
(we don't need a chainmail kit as he knows how to make his own rings using
12 gauge wire. YAY!!!) (I can, however, come up with a LOT of things we
could use that $1000/month for!)(But it's also not really about money, it's
about his not getting brainwashed or having to do stoopid irrelevent things
under the label of learning... sigh.)
Heidi
At 08:18 PM 1/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
SCHOOL!
How do we get past that?!! ...oh, or are you saying to do (the below)
while he stays in the school?
(we don't need a chainmail kit as he knows how to make his own rings using
12 gauge wire. YAY!!!) (I can, however, come up with a LOT of things we
could use that $1000/month for!)(But it's also not really about money, it's
about his not getting brainwashed or having to do stoopid irrelevent things
under the label of learning... sigh.)
Heidi
At 08:18 PM 1/14/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/14/03 5:51:57 PM, heidi@... writes:
>
><< Never MIND that it's costing an arm and a
>leg to keep him in the stupid fricking school too! >>
>
>You can buy chain-mail kits, online, easily, and for cheaper than a month's
>tuition, no doubt. He wouldn't have to make the same chain-mail stuff the
>others are making..
>
>Invite his lunch buddies over regularly, to do chain mail or play video games
>or whatever they want to do.
>
>This is a sad part, and might never come into play; it's just the realistic
>worst-scenario play: If those kids don't want to bother to come over, then
>they weren't really friends, they were just friendly inmates, like prison
>roommates guys might miss if they're discharged.
>
>But probably they WILL want to visit. Maybe you could do a movie-date once a
>week and leave the boys there, since they're used to school, not used to
>hanging around with moms.
>
>Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/03 7:13:00 PM, heidi@... writes:
<< Yeah although the problem is that He Doesn't WANT TO LEAVE THE frickin'
SCHOOL!
How do we get past that?!! ...oh, or are you saying to do (the below)
while he stays in the school? >>
The only two positives you listed were friends and chain mail. I was
pointing out neither needed the school.
You could do it with or without the continuance of school. If he's not
interested in doing chain mail at home or having his friends at home, then he
really DOES want the school.
Then I have no advice.
Sandra
<< Yeah although the problem is that He Doesn't WANT TO LEAVE THE frickin'
SCHOOL!
How do we get past that?!! ...oh, or are you saying to do (the below)
while he stays in the school? >>
The only two positives you listed were friends and chain mail. I was
pointing out neither needed the school.
You could do it with or without the continuance of school. If he's not
interested in doing chain mail at home or having his friends at home, then he
really DOES want the school.
Then I have no advice.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/2003 8:23:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Invite his lunch buddies over regularly, to do chain mail or play video games
figured that for THAT kind of money, we could GO to the Alamo, we could GO to
Alaska, we could GO to Spain. (None of that's happened yet, but for THAT
money, we *could*! <G>)
He's glad he went because he has two GREAT friends from there---friends he
wouldn't have met if he'd not gone. And they are regulars. True friends. He
lost a few others (and they even now make fun of him, so we hear...), but
they weren't real friends to begin with. One of the neat things about leaving
a private school is that all the kids aren't neighbors (they're from all over
the city)---and the parents are used to driving all over creation already! <G>
The other parents also realize that I'm willing to bend over backwards so
that Cameron can spend time with their boys, so usually they're over here
(and out of their hair!).
Both of the other boys have also left Heathwood. One is in a public high
school, and one just left a boarding school and is now back home with his mom
this semester (but she's moved 1.5 hours north of us. :-( ) and he's also now
in public school. The good thing is that they have less homework! <G>
These three are into skateboarding and filming and music (Cam got drums and
the other two got guitars for Christmas--another reason to be here--we have
the drums <g>). But who's the one with the time to write songs and
screenplays and make ramps and boards???? You betcha!! The other boys have NO
extra time for what THEY want to do. I bet your son would find the same thing
true! TIME!!!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Invite his lunch buddies over regularly, to do chain mail or play video games
> or whatever they want to do.Cameron was also at a "progressive", pricey private school. Same deal. I
>
> This is a sad part, and might never come into play; it's just the realistic
>
> worst-scenario play: If those kids don't want to bother to come over, then
>
> they weren't really friends, they were just friendly inmates, like prison
> roommates guys might miss if they're discharged.
>
> But probably they WILL want to visit. Maybe you could do a movie-date once
> a
> week and leave the boys there, since they're used to school, not used to
> hanging around with moms.
figured that for THAT kind of money, we could GO to the Alamo, we could GO to
Alaska, we could GO to Spain. (None of that's happened yet, but for THAT
money, we *could*! <G>)
He's glad he went because he has two GREAT friends from there---friends he
wouldn't have met if he'd not gone. And they are regulars. True friends. He
lost a few others (and they even now make fun of him, so we hear...), but
they weren't real friends to begin with. One of the neat things about leaving
a private school is that all the kids aren't neighbors (they're from all over
the city)---and the parents are used to driving all over creation already! <G>
The other parents also realize that I'm willing to bend over backwards so
that Cameron can spend time with their boys, so usually they're over here
(and out of their hair!).
Both of the other boys have also left Heathwood. One is in a public high
school, and one just left a boarding school and is now back home with his mom
this semester (but she's moved 1.5 hours north of us. :-( ) and he's also now
in public school. The good thing is that they have less homework! <G>
These three are into skateboarding and filming and music (Cam got drums and
the other two got guitars for Christmas--another reason to be here--we have
the drums <g>). But who's the one with the time to write songs and
screenplays and make ramps and boards???? You betcha!! The other boys have NO
extra time for what THEY want to do. I bet your son would find the same thing
true! TIME!!!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/2003 9:27:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Advice I've collected from you:
Make home life even MORE interesting that school life. Make school "optional"
every morning. Plan your week:
Beach on Monday. Take a picnic lunch. And some magnifying glasses.
Go to the Japanese exhibit on Tuesday. Eat at the Japanese restaurant. At the
bar, so you can ask questions. Be sure to eat Sushi and seaweed salad!
Look for and pick up Roadkill on Wednesday. Skin it and boil the meat off the
bones. Now you have a neat skull. Or two. If you have a microscope, even
better!
Rent Ferris Bueller's Day Off on Thursday---and maybe three-four others. Pop
popcorn and stay in PJ's all day---OR go to movies all day---different movie
every two hours----schedule it, maybe at a "Cine-10" or something.
On Friday, road-trip to a factory or a battle reinactment or art museum---in
another town/city. Go AWAY!
Post what YOUR plans are for the week and DO it. Whether the kids come or
not. (Older daughter probably will.) Son would have to decide which would be
more fun, school or what YOU have planned. Tell him he could take a friend if
the parent OK's it (He'd have to cut, too, but what you have planned might be
deemed "educational enough" by the other parent!).
YOU and unschooling need to look ---to BE--- irresistable! ANd he won't be
able to resist!
I learned all that from Sandra!
No advice---;-PPPPPP
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> You could do it with or without the continuance of school. If he's notYes, you DO!
> interested in doing chain mail at home or having his friends at home, then
> he
> really DOES want the school.
>
> Then I have no advice.
Advice I've collected from you:
Make home life even MORE interesting that school life. Make school "optional"
every morning. Plan your week:
Beach on Monday. Take a picnic lunch. And some magnifying glasses.
Go to the Japanese exhibit on Tuesday. Eat at the Japanese restaurant. At the
bar, so you can ask questions. Be sure to eat Sushi and seaweed salad!
Look for and pick up Roadkill on Wednesday. Skin it and boil the meat off the
bones. Now you have a neat skull. Or two. If you have a microscope, even
better!
Rent Ferris Bueller's Day Off on Thursday---and maybe three-four others. Pop
popcorn and stay in PJ's all day---OR go to movies all day---different movie
every two hours----schedule it, maybe at a "Cine-10" or something.
On Friday, road-trip to a factory or a battle reinactment or art museum---in
another town/city. Go AWAY!
Post what YOUR plans are for the week and DO it. Whether the kids come or
not. (Older daughter probably will.) Son would have to decide which would be
more fun, school or what YOU have planned. Tell him he could take a friend if
the parent OK's it (He'd have to cut, too, but what you have planned might be
deemed "educational enough" by the other parent!).
YOU and unschooling need to look ---to BE--- irresistable! ANd he won't be
able to resist!
I learned all that from Sandra!
No advice---;-PPPPPP
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**Intending to bolster the argument about not needing homework and the
joys
of unschooling, I asked Rachael to talk about how she's doing with the
unschooling thing and she said, "I don't agree with having homework, but
I'm learning jack-shit."**
Hi, Heidi --
This is really tough. I feel your pain!
Sounds like this is partially a self-esteem issue for your daughter. IF
she was in school and IF she was getting "A's" she could let that pump
up her ego. (As a temporary high. Blech.)
I like the section in Frank Smith's book, The Book of Learning and
Forgetting that talks about how the idea of the "learning curve" was
invented and points out that there is also a "forgetting curve" that
goes with it. "Learning" geometry now is no good way to be sure of
remembering it.
I worked hard and got pretty good grades in college, but I forgot nearly
everything very promptly. That really disillusioned me about the value
of "studying". I think the emperor is wearing no clothes. But
education researchers are a little reluctant to say so.
If you think your daughter *really wants* to spend time learning
geometry, I would recommend the Standard Deviants video (esp. if you can
get it from the library). (It's just an overview, but should bolster
confidence.) Or, she could use the Key to Geometry workbooks, which may
be purchasable in small sections. Also, I know there's one copy of
Harold Jacobs' geometry text available for just a dollar. (It was hard
for me not to buy it, but I already have a copy.) His approach to math
is very gentle and engaging.
Betsy
joys
of unschooling, I asked Rachael to talk about how she's doing with the
unschooling thing and she said, "I don't agree with having homework, but
I'm learning jack-shit."**
Hi, Heidi --
This is really tough. I feel your pain!
Sounds like this is partially a self-esteem issue for your daughter. IF
she was in school and IF she was getting "A's" she could let that pump
up her ego. (As a temporary high. Blech.)
I like the section in Frank Smith's book, The Book of Learning and
Forgetting that talks about how the idea of the "learning curve" was
invented and points out that there is also a "forgetting curve" that
goes with it. "Learning" geometry now is no good way to be sure of
remembering it.
I worked hard and got pretty good grades in college, but I forgot nearly
everything very promptly. That really disillusioned me about the value
of "studying". I think the emperor is wearing no clothes. But
education researchers are a little reluctant to say so.
If you think your daughter *really wants* to spend time learning
geometry, I would recommend the Standard Deviants video (esp. if you can
get it from the library). (It's just an overview, but should bolster
confidence.) Or, she could use the Key to Geometry workbooks, which may
be purchasable in small sections. Also, I know there's one copy of
Harold Jacobs' geometry text available for just a dollar. (It was hard
for me not to buy it, but I already have a copy.) His approach to math
is very gentle and engaging.
Betsy
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
Thanks Betsy!
I think you might be right on the self-esteem/bolstering part of the
equation. It resonates in some way. Taking geometry for example, she
actually already knows geometry (well, at least as well as your average
high schooler). She was interested last September so I popped out and got
a 'High School Advantage' set of CD's, one of which focused exclusively on
Geometry and non-chalantly put it in front of her. She disappeared with it
for about 2 weeks and emerged saying that she finished it and it was really
a lot like Algebra. I think maybe it's that she can't *see* that she's
learned it. She didn't get an A/B/C/D or a gold star for what she did. I
made appreciative comments, but I'm 'just mom' in many respects. I had an
unschooling local friend ask me if maybe I shouldn't make up some
certificates of accomplishment every now and then when she does something
like this. I'm torn on the matter because of the whole 'punishing by
rewards' mentality it re-inforces. On the otherhand, if it makes her happy
or feel better about what she's doing...
(grin) Maybe I should do a unit study on "Learning and Forgetting" with
her! After all, didn't Sandra write something in support of Unit
Studies? They must be good then! (little humor there) I'll go see if the
library has that book and start reading bits of it to her while she's doing
other things.
At 08:06 AM 1/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
I think you might be right on the self-esteem/bolstering part of the
equation. It resonates in some way. Taking geometry for example, she
actually already knows geometry (well, at least as well as your average
high schooler). She was interested last September so I popped out and got
a 'High School Advantage' set of CD's, one of which focused exclusively on
Geometry and non-chalantly put it in front of her. She disappeared with it
for about 2 weeks and emerged saying that she finished it and it was really
a lot like Algebra. I think maybe it's that she can't *see* that she's
learned it. She didn't get an A/B/C/D or a gold star for what she did. I
made appreciative comments, but I'm 'just mom' in many respects. I had an
unschooling local friend ask me if maybe I shouldn't make up some
certificates of accomplishment every now and then when she does something
like this. I'm torn on the matter because of the whole 'punishing by
rewards' mentality it re-inforces. On the otherhand, if it makes her happy
or feel better about what she's doing...
(grin) Maybe I should do a unit study on "Learning and Forgetting" with
her! After all, didn't Sandra write something in support of Unit
Studies? They must be good then! (little humor there) I'll go see if the
library has that book and start reading bits of it to her while she's doing
other things.
At 08:06 AM 1/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>Sounds like this is partially a self-esteem issue for your daughter. IF
>she was in school and IF she was getting "A's" she could let that pump
>up her ego. (As a temporary high. Blech.)
>
>I like the section in Frank Smith's book, The Book of Learning and
>Forgetting that talks about how the idea of the "learning curve" was
>invented and points out that there is also a "forgetting curve" that
>goes with it. "Learning" geometry now is no good way to be sure of
>remembering it.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/03 10:33:01 AM, heidi@... writes:
<< After all, didn't Sandra write something in support of Unit
Studies? They must be good then! >>
You're killing me.
I DREAMED about that little weinie piece of writing. I woke up thinking "I
just have to tell them I can't do it at all."
Sandra
<< After all, didn't Sandra write something in support of Unit
Studies? They must be good then! >>
You're killing me.
I DREAMED about that little weinie piece of writing. I woke up thinking "I
just have to tell them I can't do it at all."
Sandra
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
Now that's genius...
Subversion is underway! (and I'm going to be having a LOT more fun in the
next few months!)
Running errands and signing Rachael up for massage classes is today. Offer
to be her study partner or massage dummy (grin)
Beach with the dogs tomorrow, picnic lunch. Rent movies for the next day.
Movie and Jammies Day on Friday and we eat popcorn until we're sick of it -
invite homeschooling friends over too.
...all posted on the fridge, and a mention to the kids that they can play
with me if they want...etc.
Heidi
Subversion is underway! (and I'm going to be having a LOT more fun in the
next few months!)
Running errands and signing Rachael up for massage classes is today. Offer
to be her study partner or massage dummy (grin)
Beach with the dogs tomorrow, picnic lunch. Rent movies for the next day.
Movie and Jammies Day on Friday and we eat popcorn until we're sick of it -
invite homeschooling friends over too.
...all posted on the fridge, and a mention to the kids that they can play
with me if they want...etc.
Heidi
>Make home life even MORE interesting that school life. Make school "optional"
>every morning. Plan your week:
>
>Beach on Monday. Take a picnic lunch. And some magnifying glasses.
>
>Go to the Japanese exhibit on Tuesday. Eat at the Japanese restaurant. At the
>bar, so you can ask questions. Be sure to eat Sushi and seaweed salad!
>
>Look for and pick up Roadkill on Wednesday. Skin it and boil the meat off the
>bones. Now you have a neat skull. Or two. If you have a microscope, even
>better!
>
>Rent Ferris Bueller's Day Off on Thursday---and maybe three-four others. Pop
>popcorn and stay in PJ's all day---OR go to movies all day---different movie
>every two hours----schedule it, maybe at a "Cine-10" or something.
>
>On Friday, road-trip to a factory or a battle reinactment or art museum---in
>another town/city. Go AWAY!
>
>Post what YOUR plans are for the week and DO it. Whether the kids come or
>not. (Older daughter probably will.) Son would have to decide which would be
>more fun, school or what YOU have planned. Tell him he could take a friend if
>the parent OK's it (He'd have to cut, too, but what you have planned might be
>deemed "educational enough" by the other parent!).
>
>YOU and unschooling need to look ---to BE--- irresistable! ANd he won't be
>able to resist!
>
>I learned all that from Sandra!
>
>No advice---;-PPPPPP
>
>~Kelly
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/03 12:33:01 PM, heidi@... writes:
<< She didn't get an A/B/C/D or a gold star for what she did. I
made appreciative comments, but I'm 'just mom' in many respects. I had an
unschooling local friend ask me if maybe I shouldn't make up some
certificates of accomplishment every now and then when she does something
like this. I'm torn on the matter because of the whole 'punishing by
rewards' mentality it re-inforces. On the otherhand, if it makes her happy
or feel better about what she's doing... >>
Maybe you should ask her what type of reward she would like. Maybe some
shopping or a movie or a little party. Maybe she would like a certificate or
maybe a notebook where she can record her accomplishments. Maybe a nice
adult day planner, I always like something kinda cool to get me started if I
have a goal in mind. Writing down that I've accomplished something helps me
feel, well, more accomplished.
Leslie
<< She didn't get an A/B/C/D or a gold star for what she did. I
made appreciative comments, but I'm 'just mom' in many respects. I had an
unschooling local friend ask me if maybe I shouldn't make up some
certificates of accomplishment every now and then when she does something
like this. I'm torn on the matter because of the whole 'punishing by
rewards' mentality it re-inforces. On the otherhand, if it makes her happy
or feel better about what she's doing... >>
Maybe you should ask her what type of reward she would like. Maybe some
shopping or a movie or a little party. Maybe she would like a certificate or
maybe a notebook where she can record her accomplishments. Maybe a nice
adult day planner, I always like something kinda cool to get me started if I
have a goal in mind. Writing down that I've accomplished something helps me
feel, well, more accomplished.
Leslie
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
At 12:47 PM 1/15/2003 -0500, you wrote:
In regards to misery, I sent in a formally-nasty-but-in-a-nice-way note
saying that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is he to be kept in detention (my term)
to do her homework during any time when other students have free time...and
that if she has a problem with that, she can call me to discuss it. (I
told Damian that he could walk out of the classroom during lunch NO MATTER
what anyone else said and to call me if anyone tried to keep him
in.) Furthermore, if she has work she wishes done, she can send it home
with Damian and someone here will complete it for her.
I also came up with homework for her and said I would meet with her when
she had read the book (which I provided) The End of Homework, so she could
better understand where we were coming from. That got sent in today as well.
As an interesting note, no fewer than three adult neighbors (two are
unschoolers) have offered to do his homework for him. I told Damian this
and he grinned from ear to ear and started laughing. I told him that I'd
look at the homework and if I thought he'd learn anything by doing it, I'd
let him decide whether he wanted to do it or not, but if I thought it was
busywork or he already knew it I'd do it for him or get someone else
to. Of course, this means that I'll be doing ALL of the stupid homework...
The things we do because we love our kids...
Heidi
><< After all, didn't Sandra write something in support of UnitMisery loves company, eh? (rolling eyes)
>Studies? They must be good then! >>
>
>You're killing me.
In regards to misery, I sent in a formally-nasty-but-in-a-nice-way note
saying that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is he to be kept in detention (my term)
to do her homework during any time when other students have free time...and
that if she has a problem with that, she can call me to discuss it. (I
told Damian that he could walk out of the classroom during lunch NO MATTER
what anyone else said and to call me if anyone tried to keep him
in.) Furthermore, if she has work she wishes done, she can send it home
with Damian and someone here will complete it for her.
I also came up with homework for her and said I would meet with her when
she had read the book (which I provided) The End of Homework, so she could
better understand where we were coming from. That got sent in today as well.
As an interesting note, no fewer than three adult neighbors (two are
unschoolers) have offered to do his homework for him. I told Damian this
and he grinned from ear to ear and started laughing. I told him that I'd
look at the homework and if I thought he'd learn anything by doing it, I'd
let him decide whether he wanted to do it or not, but if I thought it was
busywork or he already knew it I'd do it for him or get someone else
to. Of course, this means that I'll be doing ALL of the stupid homework...
The things we do because we love our kids...
Heidi
Betsy
**She didn't get an A/B/C/D or a gold star for what she did. I
made appreciative comments, but I'm 'just mom' in many respects.**
Hi, Heidi --
I don't have teens yet, but I remember *being* a teen, even though it
was 30 years ago.
My poor mother used to try to convince me that it was okay to be curvy
and not to be stick thin. Her intentions were good, but my reaction was
always of the "what the hell do you know" variety. I just figured she
was strange, clueless, biased, and out of touch with reality.
Even if your teens don't dismiss *your* opinions all of those ways, they
still know that you ARE intensely BIASED because of your love for them.
And that makes your opinions almost as suspect as those of a
high-pressure salesman.
(Am I making you feel better? Mebbe not.)
Betsy
PS I think I recognize you from the HSC list.
made appreciative comments, but I'm 'just mom' in many respects.**
Hi, Heidi --
I don't have teens yet, but I remember *being* a teen, even though it
was 30 years ago.
My poor mother used to try to convince me that it was okay to be curvy
and not to be stick thin. Her intentions were good, but my reaction was
always of the "what the hell do you know" variety. I just figured she
was strange, clueless, biased, and out of touch with reality.
Even if your teens don't dismiss *your* opinions all of those ways, they
still know that you ARE intensely BIASED because of your love for them.
And that makes your opinions almost as suspect as those of a
high-pressure salesman.
(Am I making you feel better? Mebbe not.)
Betsy
PS I think I recognize you from the HSC list.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/03 11:53:32 AM, heidi@... writes:
<< I also came up with homework for her and said I would meet with her when
she had read the book (which I provided) The End of Homework, so she could
better understand where we were coming from. That got sent in today as well.
for two or three hours a night. I hope you make her do a report to prove she
read it.
The current issue of People magazine has an article on homework. Some
parents at a district in Utah got together to try to get them to make a
policy limiting the amount of homework. The comments of people they
interviewed went back and forth about the value. One educator said it was
proven that homework was a factor in future success or some such.
Correlation, correlation. Drives me crazy.
Yes, someone who would rather stay home and study than do other things will
probably rather stay in a dorm room and study.
They aren't testing people who did well in college despite partying wildly,
some of whom were there after partying through high school. Why do THEY get
good grades? Natural talent? They can't correlate it with homework, so they
aren't part of those statistics.
<< Of course, this means that I'll be doing ALL of the stupid homework...>>
WHY? Just to shush the teacher? Just to help him get his grades?
Sandra
<< I also came up with homework for her and said I would meet with her when
she had read the book (which I provided) The End of Homework, so she could
better understand where we were coming from. That got sent in today as well.
>>GOOD THINKING! I hope you gave her a deadline that would require her to read
for two or three hours a night. I hope you make her do a report to prove she
read it.
The current issue of People magazine has an article on homework. Some
parents at a district in Utah got together to try to get them to make a
policy limiting the amount of homework. The comments of people they
interviewed went back and forth about the value. One educator said it was
proven that homework was a factor in future success or some such.
Correlation, correlation. Drives me crazy.
Yes, someone who would rather stay home and study than do other things will
probably rather stay in a dorm room and study.
They aren't testing people who did well in college despite partying wildly,
some of whom were there after partying through high school. Why do THEY get
good grades? Natural talent? They can't correlate it with homework, so they
aren't part of those statistics.
<< Of course, this means that I'll be doing ALL of the stupid homework...>>
WHY? Just to shush the teacher? Just to help him get his grades?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/03 11:53:32 AM, heidi@... writes:
<< As an interesting note, no fewer than three adult neighbors (two are
unschoolers) have offered to do his homework for him. I told Damian this
and he grinned from ear to ear and started laughing. >>
You know what might actually not stink?
The neighbors and you come over, and make a kind of board game out of his
homework. Laugh and have fun with all of it. Speak the answers. Let him do
all the writing though. Then all the discussion and thought and "answers"
will flow through him and he will actually, truly learn some things that the
school would have liked for him to learn. And he'll learn all the extra
things the unschooling adults there can add as it's discussed.
Sandra
<< As an interesting note, no fewer than three adult neighbors (two are
unschoolers) have offered to do his homework for him. I told Damian this
and he grinned from ear to ear and started laughing. >>
You know what might actually not stink?
The neighbors and you come over, and make a kind of board game out of his
homework. Laugh and have fun with all of it. Speak the answers. Let him do
all the writing though. Then all the discussion and thought and "answers"
will flow through him and he will actually, truly learn some things that the
school would have liked for him to learn. And he'll learn all the extra
things the unschooling adults there can add as it's discussed.
Sandra
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
At 11:57 AM 1/15/2003 -0800, you wrote:
heads when they ask questions about what curriculum folks like for
math. ...it's really hard not flaming the newbies who want to 'paint by
number'. Don't you think?
Heidi
>Even if your teens don't dismiss *your* opinions all of those ways, theyAh, you've met my daughter then.
>still know that you ARE intensely BIASED because of your love for them.
>And that makes your opinions almost as suspect as those of a
>high-pressure salesman.
>PS I think I recognize you from the HSC list.Yeah, I'm one of the infiltrators who goes in and messes with people's
heads when they ask questions about what curriculum folks like for
math. ...it's really hard not flaming the newbies who want to 'paint by
number'. Don't you think?
Heidi
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
><< I also came up with homework for her(laughing) I considered requiring a report, but I actually wanted her to
>
>GOOD THINKING! I hope you gave her a deadline that would require her to read
>for two or three hours a night. I hope you make her do a report to prove she
>read it.
READ the book, not circular-file it. This is what I said (and I was really
pissed when I wrote it, but calmer by the 8th revision.)
********************************
It is my hope that the book, The End of Homework, will help explain my
beliefs on the importance of homework in a childs education and may help
you clarify and substantiate your beliefs for me so I can understand
them. You will notice that I began the book by highlighting passages that
resonated for me, but in the end, decided that you might reach more benefit
by reading it unaided more like a real homework assignment
perhaps. When you have finished the book, please let us know and we will
arrange a time to meet to discuss our mutual situation.
I should expect that with good motivation, it will take only a night to get
through the 102 pages (not including footnotes), two or three nights if you
wish to lessen the impact on your home or family life. Please feel free to
mark up the book, and keep if it you wish. We all know the intrusion of
homework can be disruptive to a persons home life and free time, and I was
concerned that you might likewise find it onerous. However, as we all hope
to move swiftly to reach a consensual decision, it is my hope that you
would welcome the momentary impact on your own home life that you ask
Damian to undergo weekly. (I do not suggest however, that you call your
mother over to read this fairly long book to you, nor have to wait until
she is available, nor stop what you are doing when she becomes available as
happens in our home in order to meet external deadlines.)
****************************
I'm especially proud of the 'good motivation', 'onerous' and her doing once
what Damian must do weekly bits. (and the reading part is because Damian
is 'dyslexic' and hates to read so extra paperwork is a real frustration
for him. If it's long and word-dense, he asks me to read it to him.)
>good grades? Natural talent? They can't correlate it with homework, so theyWhich reminds me, does anyone have any favorite 'homework is stupid and
>aren't part of those statistics.
ineffective' websites? (I'll google, so don't bother with that, just if
you have some you're fond of already, I'd like to hear of them.)
><< Of course, this means that I'll be doing ALL of the stupid homework...>>They don't give grades, so it's just to shush the teacher - and make her
>WHY? Just to shush the teacher? Just to help him get his grades?
think about what she's really asking for. She's asking ME to do the work
SHE thinks needs doing. I'm hoping she re-evaluates the validity of the
work she's asking for, as well as the amount. I've seen some of it. It's
mostly worksheets and 'find the answer in the paragraph' things. Blech.
Keep the ideas and comments coming! You're all really making me think!
Heidi
Betsy
**Yeah, I'm one of the infiltrators who goes in and messes with people's
heads when they ask questions about what curriculum folks like for
math. ...it's really hard not flaming the newbies who want to 'paint by
number'. Don't you think?**
Well, I enjoy your posts tremendously. But being (at least as a child)
timid and over-sensitive myself, I have a lot of sympathy for the poor
newbies, pulling away from the school system and not quite having
unravelled the whole mental trip that was played on them.
Maybe we could team up and play good cop and bad cop with them? That's
supposed to make 'em crack faster! <g>
Betsy
PS I thought this part of your letter to you son's teacher was outstanding!
**I should expect that with good motivation, it will take only a night
to get
through the 102 pages (not including footnotes), two or three nights if
you
wish to lessen the impact on your home or family life. Please feel free
to
mark up the book, and keep if it you wish. We all know the intrusion of
homework can be disruptive to a persons home life and free time, and I
was
concerned that you might likewise find it onerous. **
heads when they ask questions about what curriculum folks like for
math. ...it's really hard not flaming the newbies who want to 'paint by
number'. Don't you think?**
Well, I enjoy your posts tremendously. But being (at least as a child)
timid and over-sensitive myself, I have a lot of sympathy for the poor
newbies, pulling away from the school system and not quite having
unravelled the whole mental trip that was played on them.
Maybe we could team up and play good cop and bad cop with them? That's
supposed to make 'em crack faster! <g>
Betsy
PS I thought this part of your letter to you son's teacher was outstanding!
**I should expect that with good motivation, it will take only a night
to get
through the 102 pages (not including footnotes), two or three nights if
you
wish to lessen the impact on your home or family life. Please feel free
to
mark up the book, and keep if it you wish. We all know the intrusion of
homework can be disruptive to a persons home life and free time, and I
was
concerned that you might likewise find it onerous. **
Kate Green
>these are great ideas but there is also a big drive for kids to branch out
> YOU and unschooling need to look ---to BE--- irresistable! ANd he won't be
> able to resist!
and have friends and activities that don't include mom and family. And this
drive is really important and needs to be accomodated. So making
irresistable activities might only go so far. Perhaps in addition to these
ideas it might help to get him involved in activities with other kids
outside of school. that way he can get all the interaction he desires and
still do all the good unschooling stuff as well.
If he just gets to busy with band/sports/games/working as a volunteer ???
whatever his interests are, then he will have to give up the unimportant
things in life (like the school:) Plus as someone mentioned you could talk
about money issues and let him know what kinds of classes or activities he
could be doing with some of the money instead of paying school fees.
Kate
>
> I learned all that from Sandra!
>
> No advice---;-PPPPPP
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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