Subject: Re: Unschooling and University for academically rigorous disciplines
Robyn
I appreciate your writing. I said I would not post again, but your analogy made me see that what I was trying to achieve did not come across.
| Robyn Coburn's analogy, referenced in this post, was: Analogy/fairy tale time: A person comes to the scuba diving list, and says he wants to learn to scuba dive, and which are the best boats to take him to the Marianas Trench? Everyone offers a whole lot of suggestions about dive shops, certification, scuba gear, masks, keeping safe and healthy, their experiences diving recreationally in the Caribbean, Fiji, Bali, and the Great Barrier Reef. Others can tell about their uncle who is a police or rescue diver, or their cousin in the Navy. Some people go off on cool tangents about snorkeling, cruising, NASA, reef biology and cool movies that feature scuba diving real and nonsensical. The original poster says that, yeah he's heard of all this "stuff", but what about getting to the Marianas Trench? A couple of people, including someone who has been to the Marianas Trench in a submarine, suggest that maybe that is a pretty big thing to be aiming for directly, that there are a lot of things that might need to be addressed long before going there, but you know that information is readily available from boating sources and travel agents. "You so-and-so's won't answer my question. I want the best boat to the Marianas Trench!!!!!"
Reply: Oh we thought you wanted to learn to scuba dive. |
My analogy goes like this:
A person comes to the scuba diving list. He says he has been snorkelling for a short while, but he thinks that scuba is a much better way to see the reef. However, he has heard that people who scuba dive cannot get easily from one reef to another, because they cannot fly in an airplane soon after scuba diving. He has not been able to find much information about that, so he wonders if anyone here has any experience with being allowed to fly right after scuba diving.
Everyone offers a whole lot of suggestions about dive shops, certification, scuba gear, masks, keeping safe and healthy, their experiences diving recreationally in the Caribbean, Fiji, Bali, and the Great Barrier Reef. Others can tell about their uncle who is a police or rescue diver, or their cousin in the Navy. Some people go off on cool tangents about snorkeling, cruising, NASA, reef biology and cool movies that feature scuba diving real and nonsensical. Some give very helpful answers, which he gratefully receives.
The original poster says that he needs to know about the question he asked, because he is not willing to risk not being able to fly. For him that would make scuba a non-starter, no matter what the other benefits that might accrue. He explains that he is very interested in scuba, in fact he has become a proto-protagonist of scuba diving. However, for him, the flying issue is extremely important.
Sandra's note in 2022:Then the questions should have been asked in a flying forum. The person in the analogy was asking the wrong people. If one's priority is anything other than unschooling, unschooling will not take hold. If she wasn't interested in, or able to understand, nor sincerely wanting to learn about unschooling, her question wasn't important, even to her. |
Some people reply. The first thing they say is that no one has looked at the flying question, but if he sticks around he can get information that will answer other questions that are more important. If he was more experienced as a scuba diver, he would not ask such stupid questions. He needs to ask the right questions, for example, what is the correct decompression level and time after a dive to 50 feet for 15 minutes. Some tell him that flying is not important. He should not think of these things, he is just wasting time that he could be spending learning about scuba diving.
Confused, he tries again. Perhaps he did not explain himself well. This upsets some, particularly those who travel in big shiny diving boats, and have rebreathing scuba sets. This whipper snipper knows nothing about scuba diving, and now he wants to ask questions about flying! Any Real Scuba Diver knows that you first learn to scuba dive, and then you won't need to ask about flying. In fact, lots of people never ever want to fly again, once they learn how to scuba dive.
The discussion becomes more heated. Authoritarianism raises its head. Some tell him what he meant when he said something, even when he tries to correct their impression. Some even accuse him of being a liar.
"You don't understand my question. I want to know about flying after scuba diving!!"
Reply: Oh, we know you don't want to know that, you want to learn to scuba dive.
He is sad. He thought he could have his question answered so that he could relax about flying, and concentrate on being the best scuba diver he can be. But the evangelical zeal of some of the divers makes him uncomfortable. Why would any good scuba diver be so threatened when asked about flying? Why do they get irritated and believe that he knows more than all of them? He knows what he believes, yet the scuba divers with the rebreathing sets will have none of it. They claim to know what he thinks. He leaves, shaking his head. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps scuba diving isn't the best thing he has heard about when it comes to swimming. Perhaps it is just a cult that requires following of certain mantras. Yet, there are some there who answered him gently and did give him good ideas. He is confused, and rather lonely.
For now, he decides, he will stick to snorkelling. Perhaps he will find other scuba divers who are more trusting of his motives.
😟
Early on this mom had written "When it comes to unschooling, I am a coward."
Members of the discussion who were brave tried to help her look in other directions, than at her stated fear about her daughter getting into a university program.
The mom with the question (the one single question) assumed that research had been done on unschoolers entering universities. It had not. No one would want to pay for that. But we had many examples of successes to share with her, and she wrote:
I understand the "real information" you are alluding to, but well-researched information is also real, and would be helpful in this context.If it didn't exist, in 2006, then it wasn't real. 🙂
My collection of accounts of kids attending college classes WAS real.
Later she wrote:
And anecdotal evidence can be useful too, especially if it is specific. I was kinda hoping someone would pop up and say: "I'm a vet, and I was unschooled, and this is what I experienced". Or somesuch."There wasn't one at the time, but now I know a veterinarian who was unschooled. In 2006, she was in her late teens or early 20s. Still, then or now she would have been under NO obligation to report on her life because ONE mother of a young child had ONE question.
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This is about Sadie, who was a close local friend of our family (and of my sister's family, when she was younger). My son was one of her "bridesmaids" when she was married. Some of her attendants were properly female, but two of her attendants were male unschoolers, and were designated "Made of Muscle" (Brett H.) and "Made of Manliness," I think it was (Marty).
She studied in Wisconsin, moved to Colorado where her husband's family is, worked in an emergency clinic for a few years, and recently switched to less stressful veterinary work. We didn't need a specific area of study to be represented, in 2006, or even in 1996, but the mom who had come to our group insisted on telling us what she needed to know, and that it was ALL that she needed to know. |
Also from that discussion, the mom wrote:
my style is to research things to death BEFORE they are neededI responded:
What's needed most with a ten year old is for you to be with her now, doing things she's interested in now. If you research for the next six years, you'll miss her being ten, and miss her being eleven, and miss her being twelve... If you're here with her now in this moment, fully present, discovering things about her interests and thoughts that no teacher ever could have discovered, that most parents never take time to discover, that will help her get into college and make her a better person than anything else you could do. Other good things will follow from it if you focus on the relationship with her now. Sandra
Getting It
Learning to See Differently
Clarity
