Bad Advice

good advice and bad advice

Without the least intention of apologizing for using "good" and "bad," I want to remind people of the purpose of this list. Those who are sure of it already, remind yourself. Those who aren't sure, read here: /alwayslearning

There are some new list members, which is a constant, and which is good. There are some new list members posting here without regard to the fact that it's an unschooling discussion list. That is not good. Long posts about school are not good for the list.

Repetitive posts explaining posts that were repetitive in the first place are not good for the list.

ALL POSTS should be questions or stories about unschooling or responses based on unschooling principles.

When I ask for people to give enough information that answers are useful, that's not the same as asking for all the details in the world. Leaving something out like that the child is still in school, or 12 and adopted, or the parents are in the process of separating--- BIG things like that---that can be a waste of the time of the people who are offering advice.

These things are quoted from a post that was returned:

-=-It isn't fair for one person to be "Cinderella," and the others to be the stepsisters" who expect the "maid" to take care of their every whim.-=-

-=-By the time he's out on his own, these things will happen automatically for him.-=-

Sandra

What kind of democratic list can one have, if one censors everything. Just because it's not what you personally believe.

I have noticed, that you make a lot of referals to links that YOU created, like you're the only opinion that matters, and you want people to believe that you're the "expert" on the subject.

What I said about Cinderella, is true, a mom on the other list felt the same way too.

And, He WILL be self sufficient. How can you predict that he won't be.

How can anyone speak freely on this list if you're going to personally censor everything you don't agree with.

I'm surprised you didn't bash the lady with the 4 year old and say something like, the other people did, you can't let him make choices, who cares about pajamas, let him sleep wherever, don't give him milk in bed, it'll rot his teeth, etc and so on

None of these replies would have been helpful to her.

So I'm going where the open minded, and non judgemental people are.

A lady said she was lurking on a list such as yours, and left because of the slamming of people.

No one gets slammed on your list, except from you. You simply don't let anyone interact with the people on the list, unless you personally agree with what they're saying or asking. So you can refer them to your personal web links.

You need to read about democracy.

I let the response through because it was kind of awful. I think I'll let the original post onto the list, too, in case anyone here is wondering why a post would be returned.

-=-What kind of democratic list can one have, if one censors everything. Just because it's not what you personally believe. -=-

I personally believe that advice that's not at ALL from an unschooling point of view, from someone who's been on the list for less than a week, is not in keeping with the purpose of the list.

And where did it say this was "a democratic list"? It's my list.

-=-I have noticed, that you make a lot of referals to links that YOU created, like you're the only opinion that matters, and you want people to believe that you're the "expert" on the subject.-=-

Anyone who's followed those links will know that there are very few written just by me, and many written completely by people other than me.

The reason I keep the site, and Joyce keeps her unschooling site, is that the same questions are asked over and over and OVER and over over the years. Even though Joyce and I also do several hours of work each week keeping lists available for people to continue to ponder and analyze and discuss these same, same questions, we also collect the best parts so people can find them without joining a list (and people do find them) and so that people on the lists can read LOTS of good advice and ideas about their current question, if it has come up before.

-=-What I said about Cinderella, is true, a mom on the other list felt the same way too.-=-

OH!~ A mom felt that way!? MILLIONS OF MOMS feel that way, and it's not making them happy. It will not create the relationship with their child that they need for unschooling to thrive.

-=-No one gets slammed on your list, except from you. You simply don't let anyone interact with the people on the list, unless you personally agree with what they're saying or asking. So you can refer them to your personal web links.-=-

"Simply"? I "simply" don't let anyone interact!???

This list was created November 24, 2001. There are 45,421 messages in the archives (there will be more by the time this one is posted). How is that evidence that I don't let people communicate!?

The post I returned had some very harsh recommendations. I'll put it on the list with a disclaimer, and without the name of the original poster because if she's not ashamed now, she might be ashamed of it someday. I had intended to spare her.

Sandra

Below is my note returning the post quoted below. I'm letting it through to the list. This has taken half an hour of my day, corresponding with someone who hadn't been on the list for a week. What I didn't include below was the 1285 words of appended posts (any macintosh will count words with one click, so don't think I counted them myself ).

I didn't even mention how dangerous, abusive and possibly illegal the recommendation to lock a child in his room with the light off is.

From here down is the cover, and then the post I had returned.

Sandra

------------------------------------------------------------

There are several reasons this is returned. You've appended two long posts. Please don't do that. If you must quote from another post, post only enough to help readers remember the part to which you're responding.

-=- My son has a behavioral disorder, I won't go into it because when I did, the post wasn't let through.-=-

Complaining about the list isn't the purpose of the list. You can read more about the list, if you wish to, here: /alwayslearning

And you've only been on a few days. Responses should be from an unschooling point of view. The list is about unschooling principles and natural learning, not about traditional solutions or locking children in their rooms.

It's fine for you to read without posting, until you understand more about unschooling. If unschooling won't work at your house, that's fine. Posts with mainstream advice aren't the purpose of the AlwaysLearning list.

Sandra

From: [now anonymous]
Date: May 21, 2009 10:30:30 AM MDT
To:
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: input regarding sleep issues with 4 year old

I note on this sleep issues subject.

My son was never able to be put to bed in the traditional fashion, I.e. Do the nightly routine, of pajamas, teeth, stories and be tucked in, and go to sleep.

That has never happened. My son has a behavioral disorder, I won't go into it because when I did, the post wasn't let through.

Anyway, he's in constant motion.

Even today, at almost 9 years old, he won't seek his bed until his his body controls his will, by basically shutting down on it's own.

I gave up "putting him to bed" years ago, because it was impossible.

I do however, mandate a family quiet time at a certain hour, generally when it gets dark outside.

My son was an explosive child too, at the age of yours.

I basically cleared out his room of all stuff that could be dangerous to him dressers, hard plastic toys, lamps and any other thing with a cord, and covered all the outlets with locking covers.

So he had a few softcover books in there, a huge pile of stuffed animals and a mattress on the floor. It was not on a bedframe, because he liked to jump on his bed, and could get seriuosly hurt falling off a raised one.

All the stuff was taken out of his room, to make a safe environment for an extreme child.

Like your son, he would throw stuff when he was mad. If there were no hard items in his room, than no one would get hurt/nothing would get broken, and he wouldn't get the satisfaction of hearing something crash.

Anyway, his clothes and clothes dresser were taken out, so he couldn't make a mess with them by strewing them about when he got angry.

And most importantly, a lock on his door. He couldn't be made to take a time out in a corner or chair like on nanny 911, so his near empty room was his time out area, and still is.

Anyway, back to the sleep issue, I would just make him understand that it was quiet time, and give him choices, he could stay up and do whatever, read books, play a game, etc. But in one hour he'll have to go to his own room for the night. If he made a fuss about going, then he'd have to go there immediately.

In the beginning, like on Nanny 911, when the parents give ultimatums, things are hard on the kids, I would put him in there, and he'd kick the door and scream. Then I'd say, "if you want to do that, then I'll have to take the light bulb out."

Like most kids, he doesn't like being in the dark, but it was a sort of dicipline that could be used, that wouldn't hurt him, and he chose it, by not choosing to accept that it was quiet time.

After a few light bulbs being taken out (these were the over head celing bulbs, so there was no danger of fingers in open sockets) for a couple of minutes, he knew I was serious about what I said. If he didn't like sitting in the dark, he would be quiet in the evenings, after it was dark outside.

He would also have to stay in his room during quiet time. The door could stay unlocked, if he stayed in his room quietly. If he couldn't stay in his room himself, then it would be locked. This was also dictated by his actions

Now during quiet time in his room, he can do any manner of things kids do in their rooms, his choices of this were limited by only being able to play with the non hard objects in his room, so his choices were play with the stuffed animals or read books. He's an avid reader and loves inventing Animal Town scenerios for his stuffed animals.

I even would offer a new book he hadn't read, for complying with the quiet time for several days. He LOVES new books, so this was a good incentive.

Then, while in his room, as the night went on, he would just fall asleep at some point. I would go in there before I went to bed, and put him in his bed if he wasn't in it, and cover and tuck him in.

He would then have to be locked in for his own safety at night. He was prone to getting into things, and doing things if left unsupervised ( if he awakened, while I was asleep).

I also forgot to say, that his room is the the master bedroom, because it has a bathroom off the bedroom, so he can go any time he needs to, with out disrupting any one else in the house hold. This bathroom is also empty of stuff. So I don't find the walls painted with toothpaste in the morning.

I would simply try the "choices" method of doing things, it is the only disipline" that works with my son.

Just state what you'd like him to do, then another slightly unpleasent/unliked choice as the other choice, as I did, with the door being locked or not, the lightbulb coming out, or not, and the go to your room, or not.

Now, you could even give the choice of: "you CAN choose a book, and put your pajamas on now, OR you CAN go to your room right now," which would you like?

Most would choose the book, pajamas and the accompanying attention, vs. No attention by themselves.

If you make just about everything (except education style), these types of choices, soon when he chooses the obvious choice repeatedly, a routine will develop, and the problem will vanish.

Incentives and rewards help reinforce good choices as well. A reward could simply be a hug and a kiss, words of praise, that sort of thing, vs. Being set apart" alone with no interaction/time out. Most kids would not choose that choice.

I do this with my son with "family culture" type stuff, such as putting dishes in the sink, dirty clothes in the hamper,etc.

It's a way for him to realize that every person in a family, has the same responsibilities when it comes to general home/self maintenance.

It isn't fair for one person to be "Cinderella," and the others to be the stepsisters" who expect the "maid" to take care of their every whim.

By the time he's out on his own, these things will happen automatically for him.

Good luck. :)