NOTES TO SANDRA (from Sandra): FIRST, put in smiles and fix ampersands. 🙂 🙂 Then put in spaces? See if this mentions the questions and answers that are at the moment unformatted at the bottom of the /reassurance file. That's not a good place for them. They might need to be on their own page, as a "barrage Q&A" or something. Apologies to people who wanted to read it easily right now; it needs work. 🙂 |
[NOTE TO READERS: AOL was having a weird glitch and some posts ended up looking like the above, with stars around a fragment. I took most of them out, so this chat is not as smooth as it might have been. --Sandra]ChosenOnes : DAC, you might be interested to know that our local school board just decided to form a committee on homeschooling to insure accountability. DACunefare : Weird... SandraDodd : Chosen, is the use of unit studies less structure than what you're doing now? ChosenOnes : Sounds ominous to me--the board says most of us are doing OK, but they want to R homesch : What is deschool? 🙂 ChosenOnes : check up on the "few" that aren't really teaching. DACunefare : Chosen.. then you must simply be creative while following the law. ChosenOnes : Yes, Sandra. TamTho : I want to know my kids are learning the basics to get into college or a job how do you all SandraDodd : Tam, they don't need to learn everything at once. ChosenOnes : So far, the Stanford. Both boys are above grade level in everything. TamTho : I am trying to type "without assessments"! SandraDodd : They don't need to learn things in the order the schools present them. DACunefare : Chosen, if your children are already being tested, and it doesn't bother you or them, it might be just as easy to continue that for awhile. ChosenOnes : Sandra, one person on here said that if the school system "requires" a certain number of hours, we should fulfill it down to the last minute. TamTho : I realize that but how do you know what they do need or should learn at a given time SandraDodd : There is an "unschooling school" 🙂 --Clonlara. If you get brave and interested in your children striking out on their own, but afraid of "proving" what they've done, Clonlara will cover for you. GardenFev : What do you look for in a teacher who does assessments? Will they use tests,conversation? ChosenOnes : That was kind of my thought, DAC. Neither boy seems to mind it much. DACunefare : Rhomesch... deschooling (to me) is letting go of the idea that tests and lessons are useful things. And that learning only happens by teaching. R homesch : But what if after assessment you discover that a 14 yr. old can't read, write, or do math? DACunefare : R homesch... don't you think you would already know that? You live with them. ChosenOnes : In a way, though, tests are helpful because the child reviews what was just studied and thus gets it more firmly fixed in mind. SandraDodd : You guys are fast, and I had a kid get (slightly) hurt... I'll catch up in a minute. ChosenOnes : I guess what it boils down to is to just be sure that some time your kids learn how to read, do math, etc. and also develop their own special interests. R homesch : The school had her in ld learning disabilities classes and told me she was doing fine... GardenFev : R homesch, be careful of "What ifs" Have you met a 14 yr. that can't do those things? LJDBush : So, Sandra, I should stop worrying about whether my 6 y.o. is up to speed in math, right? SandraDodd : LJDBush, I don't think there IS a "speed" for a 6yo, except being able to tell you he's six, to count, and maybe to multiply and divide. What I mean is, the range can be HUGE and we should just try to relax about the whole thing, rather than pushing, threatening, begging, paying, praising... just let kids learn for fun, and they will. They will. TamTho : but isn't there a need for our children to know that not everything in life is fun but we need to work at it anyway. Life is not all games and playtime.There needs to be self discipline also. DACunefare : Tam... learning is sometimes hard work yes. But when it is chosen learning, the child will remember and yes enjoy it more. R homesch : When I decided to hs I had her test independently and to my surprise was told the school...was wrong!! LJDBush : Even math, Sandra? 🙂 DACunefare : Have you ever seen your child sitting for hours trying to do something they chose to do? SandraDodd : Tam, they will figure out that not everything is fun. There's no sense making false sorrow for them to practice on. DACunefare : They will, but what is forced will go in one ear and out the other. GardenFev : TamTho, As adults we do "unfun" things because we hope to achieve a goal at the end, same for our children. SandraDodd : Even math. SandraDodd : Kids will count money, do math tricks, puzzles, play computer games that need math, learn to make stars with protractors and compasses... I would hate math too if someone forced me to work problems. DACunefare : R homesch... if the child is with you, you won't be fooled again. GardenFev : So what do you look for in an assessment teacher? TamTho : how do you know where to "direct" your childrens learning? DACunefare : Garden... I'd ask around for someone who will look over portfolios and talk to the child. ChosenOnes : My 8 yo says he hates math. SandraDodd : He hates math exercises, I bet. I bet he doesn't know what math is good for, except to do it because he has to. DACunefare : Are you required to do assessment? ChosenOnes : Actually, I think he would just rather be programming on the computer. SandraDodd : That's a school thing, not a learning thing. R homesch : Very true!!! I will never be fooled again, I've since began hsing all my children LJDBush : My daughter had no trouble dividing 10 cookies by four family members in the car yesterday. GardenFev : The last Spider mag. had a fun adding game and the kids make funny bodies to do it. SandraDodd : Chosen, I'm trying not to yell!!! Computer programming IS math. It IS. DACunefare : Tam, I read things I like. When they get excited, we go find more. LJDBush : I have to remember they will learn what matters to them. SandraDodd : Even when it's using words instead of figures, the concepts are mathematical. ChosenOnes : Sure it is. I TOLD HIM SO. SandraDodd : Well stop telling him! 🙂 Then he'll hate programming! GardenFev : We are lucky. We can have portifolios, tests or I think assessments. SandraDodd : Kids in school will decide "I HATE ENGLISH" ChosenOnes : My only concern is that he will know what he needs to know in order to program. :) SandraDodd : The more teachers will say, "Well books are "English" and notes to your boyfriend are "English" the more they hate English (and teachers). 🙂 Okay--let's don't recite old teacher-stuff, let's shake off the phrases we're repeating because we heard them from our moms or teachers. ChosenOnes : I was wondering if unit studies using the computer might be helpful and interesting to him. DACunefare : Chosen... if he tries and finds he needs to know more, he'll work hard at it. TamTho : so, if my son hates to write on paper, teach him to type? is that the idea? SandraDodd : YES Tam. The medium isn't as important (especially for kids born these days). DACunefare : Sure Tam! What is sacred about pencil and paper? It's the thoughts you're after. ChosenOnes : He hates a lot of things that take work, but you might be right, DAC. SandraDodd : Chosen--What kind of math are you afraid he won't learn? Give us a concrete example, please. GardenFev : Chosen, if he can program, then I would suppose he knows how to do it. If he gets a problem he can't solve or takes more time, he is certainly learning. ChosenOnes : Well . . . he hates multiplication and division. SandraDodd : When I was in school we were forbidden to use pencils after about fifth grade. Ballpoint pen. SandraDodd : My grandmother was REQUIRED to use dip pens and ink. ChosenOnes : So, should I make him learn the multiplication table? SandraDodd : How old again? DACunefare : Chosen... he may not undrstand WHAT he is doing in mult. and div. And doing rows of problems is tedious ChosenOnes : 8. SandraDodd : No. SandraDodd : What's 7x8? ChosenOnes : Would you recommend unit studies (56) for him, then? GardenFev : I am intriqued that mult. can be explained as an addition shortcut. SandraDodd : I don't recommend unit studies for anybody. ChosenOnes : Many homeschoolers are very high on unit studies. TamTho : you still need to teach addition before subtraction,etc.. how do you know where to begin? SandraDodd : I assume most of the ten of you have a calculator at hand, a ten-key on your keyboard...🙂 GardenFev : Unit studies certainly seems to be the "going rage" DACunefare : Easiest is in real life. There are 6 of us, and Oma is here for dinner. How many plates do you need? MayWine79 : Sandra-why don't you rec. unit studies? We are enthralled and feeling free! SandraDodd : It's a step away from school-style curriculum. GardenFev : Sandra, got the point. SandraDodd : Because I'm the one step past that... ChosenOnes : Do you use books at all, Sandra? SandraDodd : What do you mean "use books"? ChosenOnes : As in curriculum, textbooks, etc. SandraDodd : I use books like crazy--we need to look at what you mean by "use." DACunefare : We use lots of books... just not very many textbooks. ChosenOnes : Make lesson plans, for example. SandraDodd : A lot of the problem with discussing all this is philosophical--the definitions of "learn" and "know" and things like that. SandraDodd : If we talk about what we "do" and "use" and "are" instead of what's happening in and with our children we dance around the "thing" without seeing the "thing" (and the next philosophical problem is: what is this "thing"?) ChosenOnes : So how do I "unschool" and meet the requirements for high school graduation? GardenFev : The one thing I really like about hs is seeing what my kid can and can't do. Yes it is hard on me to stop the wishful thinking as to what and how he should learn. TamTho : there is so much in textbooks that I wouldn't know about that is really important DACunefare : Chosen, are you looking at a diploma from somewhere? ChosenOnes : Not yet. I have considered several options, and need to study on it more, DAC. SandraDodd : Tam, is it possible that you can use textbooks as resources without "using textbooks" in a schoolish way? I mean to just run through and see what the kids already understand and skip that entirely, and just concentrate on what they don't have? TamTho : I do use as many games and extras as I can,I never thought of using them as just a resource GardenFev : Tam, stop worrying about what you don't know. You will Never learn it all. You Can learn SandraDodd : Or using the textbook for a resource for the mom and not the kid. DACunefare : Chosen, there is a book called College Admissions for Homeschoolers, that talks about documenting unconvential learning paths. by Judy Gelner. GardenFev : what you need to know. ChosenOnes : Where do I get it? TamTho : I'm so afraid of missing something. My boys do understand and know alot of what I teach SandraDodd : I wanted to apologize if I'm playing too rough for anyone here--if I'm sweet and slow and demure for an hour I won't get any ideas out you can use. I'm not trying to pick on anybody, honest. TamTho : I think you are doing great! ChosenOnes : Don't worry, Sandra, I'm not afraid to argue with you. :) Mom23kids : Hope nobody minds if I just listen in?? 🙂 SandraDodd : Tam, if I gave you $20 would you not use the word "teach" for the next five years? DACunefare : I think HEM carries it. And your library can probably get it through interlibrary loan. LJDBush : I don't think sweet would jar loose the powerful grip of school, Sandra. MayWine79 : This is interesting Sandra - you must have read a lot of John Holt ChosenOnes : I like that idea--interlibrary loan! TamTho : So, take a text, omit what we know and have fun with the rest? SandraDodd : I went to college to become a teacher in the days when the hot research was "open classroom" and was a Psych minor involved in the same sorts of cognition studies the education folk were all jazzed up about-- ChosenOnes : I guess I'm worrying too much about doing high school "right" for my almost 14 yo. TamTho : do you have a teaching degree? SandraDodd : Those premises were proven over and over to be valid theories, reproduceable, and the education crowd was proving it over and over and the psychology crowd was too... But the schools cannot do what the researchers knew by the 1960's to be true. DACunefare : I could not live without interlibrary loan! GardenFev : Just about any library is willing to find any book. It is great. ChosenOnes : I get as many books as I can that way, too. Especially conservative books. DACunefare : Just for reference... I don't have a degree... but I am still comfortable with this. SandraDodd : I went to college in the early 70's. I had a teaching certificate until it expired. I taught Jr. High English for six years, but I use more of what I learned DID NOT work than what did. TamTho : We use the library a lot but I am so busy trying to cover "text" we don't get to the books 😕 SandraDodd : I find it easy to reject schoolish things because I "been there, done that" and I KNOW in the core of my being that much of what schools require is NOT for the benefit of students but for the convenience of teachers, for the ease of reporting to the government, for the sake of control for control's sake. DACunefare : You have the opportunity to do what the schools would do if they didn't have to worry about crowd control and nervous parents. GardenFev : Tam, never neglect the books!! LJDBush : *p* ChosenOnes : Good point, Sandra. I have a friend who is considering sending her daughter back to school. DACunefare : Tam... ESPECIALLY in elementary... the texts are deadly dull! Use real books, and real things. ChosenOnes : She thinks after this year she won't be able to teach her. SandraDodd : YES! Whad DAC said. You can do what teachers WANT to do but can't because they are in schools. LJDBush : I have to worry about nervous parents--me! 😕 SandraDodd : STOP with the teaching. We do not HAVE to teach our children. SandraDodd : (Pause for shock to settle in 😕 ) GardenFev : That is IT. Crowd control. SandraDodd : We have to help our children learn. ChosenOnes : And brainwashing, Garden. SandraDodd : We need to get out of their way, put interesting things in their paths, and answer their questions. DACunefare : Yup. We can learn with them, and enjoy it. ChosenOnes : I already am. SandraDodd : We need to show them by personal example that learning is GOOD and fun and amusing and pleasant. R homesch : How do we do that for lazy kids? LJDBush : What level of guidance does it take to "help them learn"? (young children, elem. age) TamTho : I need to relax and enjoy DACunefare : Deb's theory of education... fill the house with neat stuff, read good books, throw interesting things their way... and stand back.😕 ChosenOnes : My husband and 2 sons are studying a Visual Basic Starter Kit together. Learning together. GardenFev : Chosen, I do not think they really have the time, or the means to do it effectivly. SandraDodd : "Lazy" meaning what? (Back to definitions) R homesch : She just doesn't want or care to learn anything. ChosenOnes : Teach, or brainwash? GardenFev : Chosen, both! SandraDodd : How old, R homesch? And how long has this been going on? ChosenOnes : Oh, I think they're doing at least some brainwashing. SandraDodd : So are some parents. R homesch : Since we pulled her from public school SandraDodd : How long ago? R homesch : She is 14 and has been home for 10 mo. GardenFev : OK, to become placid, dull and unquestioning. ChosenOnes : Some parents are what, Sandra? SandraDodd : Some parents are involved in brainwashing too. SandraDodd : R homesch--I wouldn't worry about your daughter taking that long to "deschool"--to get past the frustration and irritation of 8 or 9 years of institutionalized stuff. TamTho : R homesch kids learn really early in school that learning is boring and dumb GardenFev : Some parents don't want to learn anything either. DACunefare : That is tough. R, I would throw the Teenage Liberation Handbook her way to start. SandraDodd : Are you trying to get her to follow a curriculum? DACunefare : R homesch... how does she spend her days now? SandraDodd : I would remove all school-like activity from the situation. GardenFev : I think GWS articles suggest that it takes about a year to "deschool" TamTho : my kids love to learn but were taken out before malaise set in. R homesch : I tried that already and she wouldn't read it. She would rather play computer games. ChosenOnes : What kind of games do you have? TamTho : R homesch does she like to bake or sew or do crafts? SandraDodd : Read it to her. SandraDodd : Wait for her to care. R homesch : Multimedia stuff that came with my computer and Einstien programs. SandraDodd : Just don't, please, keep looking at the clock and looking at the calendar and marking her "lazy" every day. It's hard for us, as products of the public schools, to shake off what we were told was vital to our lives. R homesch : She likes to cook and has 3 newspaper routes. ChosenOnes : And she's lazy??????! DACunefare : 3 newspaper routes? That she does herself? Not lazy... turned off to "school". GardenFev : My 7 yr. can seem maddeningly "lazy" but I think it can be his only way to signal to me to back off. In as polite a manner as he can. SandraDodd : We were told that without teachers we would be nothing, nobody, ignorant, illiterate... ChosenOnes : We're still being told that. DODD: Unschooling, to me, is sneaking in all that kids need to learn under the guise of making things, doing things, watching movies, reading books, going to the store, playing games... R homesch : So, am I just worrying too much about what she is or isn't absorbing? LJDBush : Sandra, are you *consciously* sneaking stuff in or does it just happen? MayWine79 : I was saying my son is a whiz at fractions in the kitchen hasn't learned them on paper yet SandraDodd : Both. DACunefare : For right now yes, R. Give it time with no expectations. ChosenOnes : Say, R, does she handle everything regarding the paper routes herself? GardenFev : Sandra, Yes, yes. Life is interesting, do-able and fun to learn about. SandraDodd : If you look at what isn't instead of what is, you fill the hard disk of your mind up with junk 😕 DACunefare : But, it is legitimate for you to say "I'm worried. Please read this with me." SandraDodd : DAC, is that as sneaky as you can be!? DACunefare : Sandra... with a 14 yo yes. LJDBush : So unschooling doesn't mean never introducing new stuff, never handing out challenges? TamTho : MayWine 79 my son is 7 and can do more math in his head than I can but has a hard time putting it on paper R homesch : That is so hard. Yes she does handle the paper routes all by herself and her bank acct. too ChosenOnes : Then she's learning math, responsibility, etc. SandraDodd : LJDBush, it's a myth fostered by the enemy that unschoolers are lying around watching old B&W movies all day. I'm just joking... I'm just a professional sneak. I'm so sneaky my kids assume that everything I do is sneaky, so it cancels everything out. TamTho : My nephew graduated from H.S. and couldn't handle a bank acct. his mom did it! GardenFev : LJD, unschooling isn't avoiding challenges. They have to set them. LJDBush : I know that--I'm trying to sort out what the parents' role is. DACunefare : So, Tam, he understands math, it is the algorithm that he has trouble with. SandraDodd : When Kirby was little he said, "Are you teaching us everything you know so when we grow up we will be smart mans?" I just said, "YES." R homesch : Ok, ok I will let go a little, well maybe alot. LJDBush : DAC--who has to set them (challenges)? SandraDodd : I use checklists but I don't show the kids. TamTho : yes he understands very well he just hates to write anything down! too much work for him DACunefare : R... I took my son out at 11. I could have continued to fight him, but I hated ME when i did. He will never be as happy with learning as my unschooled kids... but he did find a path for himself. SandraDodd : If I look at a list (once or twice a year, not weekly, not monthly) and I notice my kids haven't heard a word about biology for a long time, I just slyly pull out a book about bugs or animals or human reproduction or whatever, and I look in it by myself until I find something interesting and I say, "HEY! look." Or I offer to read it to ONE kid, and the others get jealous, and pretty soon they're fighting about who gets to sit closest. I don't kill the moment by saying, "CLASS..." (remember Sister Mary Elephant?