Definitions

11/13/95 “Unschooling Chat" (Edited)

Welcome to the Homeschool Chat. Our topic today is Unschooling... no protocol, join right in!

So, Sandra, how about a definition of "unschooling"?

Shaking off the trappings of school.

How do you do that if your children have never been to school?

R homesch :

How do you do that?

LJDBush :

Which trappings?

SandraDodd :

Grades.
"taking roll"
"reading levels"

R homesch :

My children have been in public school and we are struggling right now.

DACunefare :

The ones from your own brain that say... A kid should know xxx by yyy.

SandraDodd :

knowing (caring) "what grade" your children are in--tell yourself they are not IN a grade, they are safe in their own homes. 🙂

ChosenOnes :

Good point. Our "school year" does NOT correspond to the local schools.

SandraDodd :

Tests, "homework" (I 'bout died when I first heard a homeschooling family refer to "homework")

DACunefare :

The ones that say... "schoolwork" is written and always has a right or wrong answer.

ChosenOnes :

It's all done at home!


SandraDodd :I believe that a family in which children are at any given moment "Doing Math" or "Having English" can be said NOT to be unschooling. 🙂

ChosenOnes :

How about grades for high school? Or are credits more important?

DACunefare :

Neither is strictly necessary.


SandraDodd :When learning is integral to living, rather than separated from it, a person (not child, not adult) can learn anything anytime.

ChosenOnes :

For college entrance, DAC?


SandraDodd :If people feel that they have to "be in a class" to learn, or "be studying" to get ahead, they are losing, with every use of that concept, the ability to learn on their own whenever they need to.

DACunefare :

What is important for a kid going to college is doing well on SAT's and being able to write a good essay. Good references from people in the community. Etc.

ChosenOnes :

I'm seriously considering using a portfolio.

TamTho : I'm here to find out what "unschooling" is. I home school but would love to learn new ways!

ChosenOnes :

Actually, my oldest wants to try to do college at home, also.

R homesch : My concern is that I don't feel that my children have learned much of anything in school... can I unschool and still catch them up to what they need to know?

DACunefare :

ChosenOnes... that would be a good way to document for college. Grades are arbitrary anyway, so why?

SandraDodd :I agree with DACunefare--

Yes, it would be better, I think, for a college to see his work.

SandraDodd : Grades (whether the yearly separations or the scores) are used to compare school children to one another. Our kids are NOT "school children."

Our state requires some kind of assessment at the end of the year. How does unschooling deal with that?

SandraDodd : Everyone learns in spurts. NOBODY learns, grows, lives, thinks, on a smooth continuum without regard to outside factors. If you allow your child to grow at his own rate and allow yourself to ACCEPT that people learn and grow differently, you will lose a lot of stress and frustration and fear that fills some homeschooling families.

LJDBush : How much guiding and directing do unschooling parents do?

DACunefare : What are your choices, Chosen?

Which influences test scores in various areas.
Portfolio, standardized achievement test, or assessment by a certified teacher, DAC.

R homesch : I'm scared that they aren't learning enough or what they need to learn.

GardenFev : That's why I'm here!

Teachkid : what do you mean GardenFev?

DACunefare : Chosen... you could choose a portfolio that the child decides on, or find an unschool friendly assesor.

TamTho : R homesch I feel the same. I follow a curr. but would like to venture into more fun!<

We have a lady in our support group who does assessments. Not sure how she views unschooling.

DACunefare : R homesch, it is hard to let go of the fear. The parents need to deschoold first.

R homesch : Yes, Tam. I've tried curr. but get frustrated, try fun but worry. R homesch : Deschool? GardenFev : I am very interested in unschooling.What is the difference between assessment and portfolio? ChosenOnes : Me, too. The thought of doing unit studies scares me. DACunefare : Chosen, you have time to ask around, find someone who is loose.
SandraDodd : I was trying to write that it depends on the district or state requirements. TamTho : *o assess?*
SandraDodd : TAM! It did it to you too!

[NOTE TO READERS: AOL was having a weird glitch and some posts ended up looking like the above, with stars around a fragment. I took most of them out, so this chat is not as smooth as it might have been. --Sandra]

DAC, you might be interested to know that our local school board just decided to form a committee on homeschooling to insure accountability.

Weird...
SandraDodd : Chosen, is the use of unit studies less structure than what you're doing now?

Sounds ominous to me--the board says most of us are doing OK, but they want to R homesch : What is deschool? 🙂 ChosenOnes : check up on the "few" that aren't really teaching.

Chosen.. then you must simply be creative while following the law.

Yes, Sandra. TamTho : I want to know my kids are learning the basics to get into college or a job how do you all
SandraDodd : Tam, they don't need to learn everything at once. ChosenOnes : So far, the Stanford. Both boys are above grade level in everything. TamTho : I am trying to type "without assessments"!
SandraDodd : They don't need to learn things in the order the schools present them.

Chosen, if your children are already being tested, and it doesn't bother you or them, it might be just as easy to continue that for awhile. ChosenOnes : Sandra, one person on here said that if the school system "requires" a certain number of hours, we should fulfill it down to the last minute. TamTho : I realize that but how do you know what they do need or should learn at a given time
SandraDodd : There is an "unschooling school" 🙂 --Clonlara. If you get brave and interested in your children striking out on their own, but afraid of "proving" what they've done, Clonlara will cover for you. GardenFev : What do you look for in a teacher who does assessments? Will they use tests,conversation?

That was kind of my thought, DAC. Neither boy seems to mind it much.

Rhomesch... deschooling (to me) is letting go of the idea that tests and lessons are useful things. And that learning only happens by teaching. R homesch : But what if after assessment you discover that a 14 yr. old can't read, write, or do math? DACunefare : R homesch... don't you think you would already know that? You live with them.

In a way, though, tests are helpful because the child reviews what was just studied and thus gets it more firmly fixed in mind.
SandraDodd : You guys are fast, and I had a kid get (slightly) hurt... I'll catch up in a minute.

I guess what it boils down to is to just be sure that some time your kids learn how to read, do math, etc. and also develop their own special interests. R homesch : The school had her in ld learning disabilities classes and told me she was doing fine... GardenFev : R homesch, be careful of "What ifs" Have you met a 14 yr. that can't do those things? LJDBush : So, Sandra, I should stop worrying about whether my 6 y.o. is up to speed in math, right?
SandraDodd : LJDBush, I don't think there IS a "speed" for a 6yo, except being able to tell you he's six, to count, and maybe to multiply and divide. What I mean is, the range can be HUGE and we should just try to relax about the whole thing, rather than pushing, threatening, begging, paying, praising... just let kids learn for fun, and they will. They will. TamTho : but isn't there a need for our children to know that not everything in life is fun but we need to work at it anyway. Life is not all games and playtime.There needs to be self discipline also.

Tam... learning is sometimes hard work yes. But when it is chosen learning, the child will remember and yes enjoy it more. R homesch : When I decided to hs I had her test independently and to my surprise was told the school...was wrong!! LJDBush : Even math, Sandra? 🙂

Have you ever seen your child sitting for hours trying to do something they chose to do?
SandraDodd : Tam, they will figure out that not everything is fun. There's no sense making false sorrow for them to practice on.

They will, but what is forced will go in one ear and out the other. GardenFev : TamTho, As adults we do "unfun" things because we hope to achieve a goal at the end, same for our children.
SandraDodd : Even math.
Kids will count money, do math tricks, puzzles, play computer games that need math, learn to make stars with protractors and compasses... I would hate math too if someone forced me to work problems.

R homesch... if the child is with you, you won't be fooled again. GardenFev : So what do you look for in an assessment teacher? TamTho : how do you know where to "direct" your childrens learning?

Garden... I'd ask around for someone who will look over portfolios and talk to the child.

My 8 yo says he hates math.
SandraDodd : He hates math exercises, I bet. I bet he doesn't know what math is good for, except to do it because he has to. DACunefare : Are you required to do assessment? ChosenOnes : Actually, I think he would just rather be programming on the computer.
SandraDodd : That's a school thing, not a learning thing. R homesch : Very true!!! I will never be fooled again, I've since began hsing all my children LJDBush : My daughter had no trouble dividing 10 cookies by four family members in the car yesterday. GardenFev : The last Spider mag. had a fun adding game and the kids make funny bodies to do it.
SandraDodd : Chosen, I'm trying not to yell!!! Computer programming IS math. It IS.

Tam, I read things I like. When they get excited, we go find more. LJDBush : I have to remember they will learn what matters to them.
SandraDodd : Even when it's using words instead of figures, the concepts are mathematical.

Sure it is. I TOLD HIM SO.
SandraDodd : Well stop telling him! 🙂
Then he'll hate programming! GardenFev : We are lucky. We can have portifolios, tests or I think assessments.
SandraDodd :

Kids in school will decide "I HATE ENGLISH"

ChosenOnes :

My only concern is that he will know what he needs to know in order to program. 🙂
SandraDodd : The more teachers will say, "Well books are "English" and notes to your boyfriend are "English" the more they hate English (and teachers). 🙂
Okay--let's don't recite old teacher-stuff, let's shake off the phrases we're repeating because we heard them from our moms or teachers.

ChosenOnes :

I was wondering if unit studies using the computer might be helpful and interesting to him.

DACunefare :

Chosen... if he tries and finds he needs to know more, he'll work hard at it. TamTho : so, if my son hates to write on paper, teach him to type? is that the idea?
SandraDodd : YES Tam. The medium isn't as important (especially for kids born these days).

DACunefare :

Sure Tam! What is sacred about pencil and paper? It's the thoughts you're after.

ChosenOnes :

He hates a lot of things that take work, but you might be right, DAC.
SandraDodd : Chosen--What kind of math are you afraid he won't learn? Give us a concrete example, please. GardenFev : Chosen, if he can program, then I would suppose he knows how to do it. If he gets a problem he can't solve or takes more time, he is certainly learning. ChosenOnes : Well . . . he hates multiplication and division.
SandraDodd : When I was in school we were forbidden to use pencils after about fifth grade. Ballpoint pen.
SandraDodd : My grandmother was REQUIRED to use dip pens and ink.

ChosenOnes :

So, should I make him learn the multiplication table? SandraDodd : How old again? DACunefare : Chosen... he may not undrstand WHAT he is doing in mult. and div. And doing rows of problems is tedious ChosenOnes : 8.
SandraDodd : No.
What's 7x8? ChosenOnes : Would you recommend unit studies (56) for him, then? GardenFev : I am intriqued that mult. can be explained as an addition shortcut.
SandraDodd : I don't recommend unit studies for anybody.

ChosenOnes :

Many homeschoolers are very high on unit studies. TamTho : you still need to teach addition before subtraction,etc.. how do you know where to begin?
SandraDodd : I assume most of the ten of you have a calculator at hand, a ten-key on your keyboard...🙂 GardenFev : Unit studies certainly seems to be the "going rage"

DACunefare :

Easiest is in real life. There are 6 of us, and Oma is here for dinner. How many plates do you need? MayWine79 : Sandra-why don't you rec. unit studies? We are enthralled and feeling free!
SandraDodd : It's a step away from school-style curriculum.
Because I'm the one step past that... GardenFev : Sandra, got the point.

ChosenOnes :

Do you use books at all, Sandra?
SandraDodd : What do you mean "use books"? ChosenOnes : As in curriculum, textbooks, etc.
SandraDodd : I use books like crazy--we need to look at what you mean by "use." DACunefare : We use lots of books... just not very many textbooks.

ChosenOnes :

Make lesson plans, for example.
SandraDodd : A lot of the problem with discussing all this is philosophical--the definitions of "learn" and "know" and things like that.
If we talk about what we "do" and "use" and "are" instead of what's happening in and with our children we dance around the "thing" without seeing the "thing" (and the next philosophical problem is: what is this "thing"?)

ChosenOnes :

So how do I "unschool" and meet the requirements for high school graduation? GardenFev : The one thing I really like about hs is seeing what my kid can and can't do. Yes it is hard on me to stop the wishful thinking as to what and how he should learn. TamTho : there is so much in textbooks that I wouldn't know about that is really important DACunefare : Chosen, are you looking at a diploma from somewhere?

ChosenOnes :

Not yet. I have considered several options, and need to study on it more, DAC.
SandraDodd : Tam, is it possible that you can use textbooks as resources without "using textbooks" in a schoolish way? I mean to just run through and see what the kids already understand and skip that entirely, and just concentrate on what they don't have?
Or using the textbook for a resource for the mom and not the kid. TamTho : I do use as many games and extras as I can,I never thought of using them as just a resource GardenFev : Tam, stop worrying about what you don't know. You will Never learn it all. You Can learn

DACunefare :

Chosen, there is a book called College Admissions for Homeschoolers, that talks about documenting unconvential learning paths. by Judy Gelner. GardenFev : what you need to know. ChosenOnes : Where do I get it? TamTho : I'm so afraid of missing something. My boys do understand and know alot of what I teach
SandraDodd : anyone here--if I'm sweet and slow and demure for an hour I won't get any ideas out you can use. I'm not trying to pick on anybody, honest. TamTho : I think you are doing great!

ChosenOnes :

Don't worry, Sandra, I'm not afraid to argue with you. 🙂 Mom23kids : Hope nobody minds if I just listen in?? 🙂
SandraDodd : Tam, if I gave you $20 would you not use the word "teach" for the next five years?

DACunefare :

I think HEM carries it. And your library can probably get it through interlibrary loan. LJDBush : I don't think sweet would jar loose the powerful grip of school, Sandra. MayWine79 : This is interesting Sandra - you must have read a lot of John Holt

ChosenOnes :

I like that idea--interlibrary loan! TamTho : So, take a text, omit what we know and have fun with the rest?
SandraDodd : I went to college to become a teacher in the days when the hot research was "open classroom" and was a Psych minor involved in the same sorts of cognition studies the education folk were all jazzed up about--

ChosenOnes :

I guess I'm worrying too much about doing high school "right" for my almost 14 yo. TamTho : do you have a teaching degree?
SandraDodd : Those premises were proven over and over to be valid theories, reproduceable, and the education crowd was proving it over and over and the psychology crowd was too... But the schools cannot do what the researchers knew by the 1960's to be true.

DACunefare :

I could not live without interlibrary loan! GardenFev : Just about any library is willing to find any book. It is great.

ChosenOnes :

I get as many books as I can that way, too. Especially conservative books. DACunefare : Just for reference... I don't have a degree... but I am still comfortable with this.
SandraDodd : I went to college in the early 70's. I had a teaching certificate until it expired. I taught Jr. High English for six years, but I use more of what I learned DID NOT work than what did. TamTho : We use the library a lot but I am so busy trying to cover "text" we don't get to the books 😕
SandraDodd : I find it easy to reject schoolish things because I "been there, done that" and I KNOW in the core of my being that much of what schools require is NOT for the benefit of students but for the convenience of teachers, for the ease of reporting to the government, for the sake of control for control's sake.

DACunefare :

You have the opportunity to do what the schools would do if they didn't have to worry about crowd control and nervous parents. GardenFev : Tam, never neglect the books!! LJDBush : *p*

ChosenOnes :

Good point, Sandra. I have a friend who is considering sending her daughter back to school.

DACunefare :

Tam... ESPECIALLY in elementary... the texts are deadly dull! Use real books, and real things.

ChosenOnes :

She thinks after this year she won't be able to teach her.
SandraDodd : YES! Whad DAC said. You can do what teachers WANT to do but can't because they are in schools. LJDBush : I have to worry about nervous parents--me! 😕
SandraDodd : STOP with the teaching. We do not HAVE to teach our children.
SandraDodd : (Pause for shock to settle in 😕 ) GardenFev : That is IT. Crowd control.
SandraDodd : We have to help our children learn.

ChosenOnes :

And brainwashing, Garden.
SandraDodd : We need to get out of their way, put interesting things in their paths, and answer their questions. DACunefare : Yup. We can learn with them, and enjoy it.

ChosenOnes :

I already am.
SandraDodd : We need to show them by personal example that learning is GOOD and fun and amusing and pleasant. R homesch : How do we do that for lazy kids? LJDBush : What level of guidance does it take to "help them learn"? (young children, elem. age) TamTho : I need to relax and enjoy

DACunefare :

Deb's theory of education... fill the house with neat stuff, read good books, throw interesting things their way... and stand back.😕

ChosenOnes :

My husband and 2 sons are studying a Visual Basic Starter Kit together. Learning together. GardenFev : Chosen, I do not think they really have the time, or the means to do it effectivly.
SandraDodd : "Lazy" meaning what? (Back to definitions) R homesch : She just doesn't want or care to learn anything.

ChosenOnes :

Teach, or brainwash? GardenFev : Chosen, both!
SandraDodd : How old, R homesch? And how long has this been going on? ChosenOnes : Oh, I think they're doing at least some brainwashing.
SandraDodd : So are some parents. R homesch : Since we pulled her from public school
SandraDodd : R homesch : She is 14 and has been home for 10 mo. GardenFev : OK, to become placid, dull and unquestioning. ChosenOnes : Some parents are what, Sandra?
SandraDodd : Some parents are involved in brainwashing too.
SandraDodd : R homesch--I wouldn't worry about your daughter taking that long to "deschool"--to get past the frustration and irritation of 8 or 9 years of institutionalized stuff. TamTho : R homesch kids learn really early in school that learning is boring and dumb GardenFev : Some parents don't want to learn anything either.

DACunefare :

That is tough. R, I would throw the Teenage Liberation Handbook her way to start.
SandraDodd : Are you trying to get her to follow a curriculum? DACunefare : R homesch... how does she spend her days now?
SandraDodd : I would remove all school-like activity from the situation. GardenFev : I think GWS articles suggest that it takes about a year to "deschool" TamTho : my kids love to learn but were taken out before malaise set in. R homesch : I tried that already and she wouldn't read it. She would rather play computer games.

ChosenOnes :

What kind of games do you have? TamTho : R homesch does she like to bake or sew or do crafts?
SandraDodd : Read it to her. Wait for her to care. R homesch : Multimedia stuff that came with my computer and Einstein programs.

SandraDodd :

Just don't, please, keep looking at the clock and looking at the calendar and marking her "lazy" every day. It's hard for us, as products of the public schools, to shake off what we were told was vital to our lives. R homesch : She likes to cook and has 3 newspaper routes.

ChosenOnes :

And she's lazy??????!

DACunefare :

3 newspaper routes? That she does herself? Not lazy... turned off to "school". GardenFev : My 7 yr. can seem maddeningly "lazy" but I think it can be his only way to signal to me to back off. In as polite a manner as he can.
SandraDodd : We were told that without teachers we would be nothing, nobody, ignorant, illiterate...

ChosenOnes :

We're still being told that.
SandraDodd : Unschooling, to me, is sneaking in all that kids need to learn under the guise of making things, doing things, watching movies, reading books, going to the store, playing games... R homesch : So, am I just worrying too much about what she is or isn't absorbing? LJDBush : Sandra, are you *consciously* sneaking stuff in or does it just happen? MayWine79 : I was saying my son is a whiz at fractions in the kitchen hasn't learned them on paper yet
SandraDodd : Both.

DACunefare :

For right now yes, R. Give it time with no expectations.

ChosenOnes :

Say, R, does she handle everything regarding the paper routes herself? GardenFev : Sandra, Yes, yes. Life is interesting, do-able and fun to learn about.
SandraDodd : If you look at what isn't instead of what is, you fill the hard disk of your mind up with junk 😕 DACunefare : But it is legitimate for you to say "I'm worried. Please read this with me."
SandraDodd : DAC, is that as sneaky as you can be!? DACunefare : Sandra... with a 14 yo yes. LJDBush : So unschooling doesn't mean never introducing new stuff, never handing out challenges? TamTho : MayWine 79 my son is 7 and can do more math in his head than I can but has a hard time putting it on paper R homesch : That is so hard. Yes she does handle the paper routes all by herself and her bank acct. too

ChosenOnes :

Then she's learning math, responsibility, etc.
SandraDodd : LJDBush, it's a myth fostered by the enemy that unschoolers are lying around watching old B&W movies all day. I'm just joking... I'm just a professional sneak. I'm so sneaky my kids assume that everything I do is sneaky, so it cancels everything out. TamTho : My nephew graduated from H.S. and couldn't handle a bank acct. his mom did it! GardenFev : LJD, unschooling isn't avoiding challenges. They have to set them. LJDBush : I know that--I'm trying to sort out what the parents' role is.

DACunefare :

So, Tam, he understands math, it is the algorithm that he has trouble with.
SandraDodd : When Kirby was little he said, "Are you teaching us everything you know so when we grow up we will be smart mans?" I just said, "YES." R homesch : Ok, ok I will let go a little, well maybe alot. LJDBush : DAC--who has to set them (challenges)?
SandraDodd : I use checklists but I don't show the kids. TamTho : yes he understands very well he just hates to write anything down! too much work for him

DACunefare :

R... I took my son out at 11. I could have continued to fight him, but I hated ME when i did. He will never be as happy with learning as my unschooled kids... but he did find a path for himself.
SandraDodd : If I look at a list (once or twice a year, not weekly, not monthly) and I notice my kids haven't heard a word about biology for a long time, I just slyly pull out a book about bugs or animals or human reproduction or whatever, and I look in it by myself until I find something interesting and I say, "HEY! look." Or I offer to read it to ONE kid, and the others get jealous, and pretty soon they're fighting about who gets to sit closest. I don't kill the moment by saying, "CLASS..." (remember Sister Mary Elephant? ) "Today we are going to learn about biology." LJDBush : How do you figure out what goes on the checklists? R homesch : When will this deschooling be completed?

DACunefare :

R, I'd give it 6 months with no pressure... and offers of cool movies!
SandraDodd : I don't tell them ANYTHING except "Look how an octopus lays eggs!!" TamTho : mine do that too Sandra especially if I am reading to my youngest.
SandraDodd :

Tam, I offer to read to the middle one, so the others perk right up. 🙂

DACunefare :

She's only 14... when she DOES get motivated, you'll have plenty of time.

DACunefare :

Truly.
SandraDodd : The checklist question... I have a list from the state that teachers are supposed to use. I have a K-3 from the local district (expected competencies). I look in the E.D. Hirsh books for ideas. GardenFev : Sandra, I have an expected comp. list to and some things seem sooo elementary. EarLisaC : this may have already been asked, but do you use any curriculum at all? R homesch : E.D. Hirsh?

DACunefare :

What your 1st grader needs to know... etc. MayWine79 : Sandra-what if one of yours always chooses to watch t.v.?
SandraDodd : MayWine, if I tell you the truth it might scare you (about TV 🙂) LJDBush : So unschooling is directed, it's just slyly directed? MayWine79 : I bet you don't own one. . .right?
SandraDodd : Sometimes I use the TV for punishment. I don't make it "candy" or dessert.

DACunefare :

Sandra... I want to know, can your kids watch anything they want? GardenFev : E.D. Hirsh? An author? GardenFev : Is this the Core Series thing?(E.D.Hirsh)?

ChosenOnes :

Cultural Literacy, etc. MayWine79 : I don't get it- guess my teacher never taught me that, huh? 🙂
SandraDodd : I'm confused, you guys... MayWine, teacher didn't teach what? YES--GardenFev, the "What your whatever-grader needs to know." Some people don't like them, some love them, I just take them as interesting lists. Sometimes I read from them for bedtime reading. GardenFev : LOL Sandra, did they put you to sleep? R homesch : Where can you get these books? (Core Series)

ChosenOnes :

Many bookstores.

DACunefare :

Libraries have them too. 🙂 (LOVE my library!)
SandraDodd : Because at our house we never have separated "school stuff" or "educational stuff" from anything else (consciously did that) then the kids don't care WHAT I read to them. One night I read one of the music chapters to a four-year-old and was singing the examples, and he actually sat up, woke up enough that he took the book away from me and went and told his dad about pitch and rhythm. Big backfire on THAT one! Darlinhrt : I don't know a thing about unschooling, I do homeschool, but use bob jones their books TamTho : me too Darlinhrt MayWine79 : Sandra-how to use the tv. as punishment
SandraDodd : If my kids are fighting I MAKE one of them sit and watch TV sometimes. DACunefare : Sneaky.
SandraDodd :"JUST SIT." And after while they WANT to get up and stop, but I say "not until this show's over." No kidding. Usually a video. R homesch : Do you choose the show? GardenFev : TV seems to be a drug for both myself and my son. Darlinhrt : Tam, do you use Bob jones?
SandraDodd : We don't watch dramas at night, or any cop shows, and the kids like musicals and cartoons and movies.

DACunefare :

If you have a kid like that, then TV might not make a good punishment. 🙂 TamTho : yes Darlinhrt and some abeka Darlinhrt : Tam, so do I , i use abeka for math
SandraDodd : If you had a kid who liked ice cream and you force fed him daily... Pretty soon you could say "have all the ice cream you want" and not go broke 🙂. I worked at Dunkin' Donuts. They said I could have all the donuts I wanted. Within a couple of days it was zero, and for a few months after I QUIT it was zero. 🙂 GardenFev : He is very active so he does less than others. He has a problem (i do) about being bored. TamTho : do you like the structure Darlinhrt?
SandraDodd : I want to share something I wrote to a friend just this morning. Darlinhrt : Tam, yes i do, but people are telling me unschooling is better, but I don't know what it is GardenFev : I try not to become his savior. Any suggestions? He thrives on friends, racing in circles, digging. TamTho : me either that is why i

DACunefare :

Give him a garden, Garden. EarLisaC : Sandra, do your kids ever ASK to watch T.V., or do they really not like it because it is pun(ishment)
SandraDodd : Lisa--they will watch it, but they'll turn it off just as quickly. They watch what they want, and go long hours with it off. ChosenOnes : Tam and Darlin, I also use Bob Jones and Abeka.
SandraDodd :I'm going to cut and paste from an e-mail; sorry for choppiness... MadBallew : Hi folks, Wow I love talking to unschoolers, any interesting holiday ideas(multicultural) SandraDodd : But I got "Blue Hawaii" instead. Cultural education. History. TamTho : Darlin, Sandra is the expert on unschool, we are learning from her!

DACunefare :

DarlinHrt... we are about ready to end here. I will send you the log, we talked a lot about HOW. 🙂 MadBallew : Sandra, thanks for all the stuff you sent me. Darlinhrt : DAC, would love the log, thank you
SandraDodd : AOL is going to make me cry--
SandraDodd : You're welcome...

SandraDodd :

Hey, I'll just type it. It's about an Elvis movie we rented. GardenFev : Watch out for experts! 🙂 Darlinhrt : Sandra, can you mail me anything about unschooling that you have? MadBallew : Does anybody here do the unschooling list mentioned in Cybernews? Darlinhrt : Mad, where is that "cybernews" ? GardenFev : Darlin, find some back issues of Growing Without Schooling. They are also on CompuServe.

DACunefare :

Yes Mad, it is a good list. Get the digest.
SandraDodd : GardenFev... DAC said "expert," not me. 🙂

DACunefare :

No... not me!
SandraDodd :Darlinhrt, there is a whole folder of stuff in the library at keyword HOMESCHOOL--the unschooling folder, and in HEM "radical unschooling..." MadBallew : Darl #5 CN page 7
SandraDodd : If you don't know how to log so you can read offline later, let me know and I'll send you a back issue of Cyber-News that talks about logging. GardenFev : DAC, what list , give details MadBallew : Radical Homeschooling ? What does that mean? R homesch : I would like to see the #5 CN also, how do I get it?

DACunefare :

GardenFev, it is in CyberNews 5. MadBallew : Ask sandra TamTho : going to go now and retrieve my chat log. Thanks everyone 🙂
SandraDodd : She just did! GardenFev : That is a funny folder. Can get hot, as in Flames. MadBallew : You are so quick Sandra my dear!!! 🙂

DACunefare :

Radical Unschool? Flames? Nah....
SandraDodd : Unschooling? I didn't think so at all. Point Counterpoing was.. LJDBush : Thank you Sandra and DAC--very helpful. Gotta run.
SandraDodd : (ooh... I like "counterpoing")

DACunefare :

Poing... GardenFev : DA , I must have missed that.
SandraDodd : I'll send you guys what I was trying to enter by e-mail. MadBallew : sounds kinky Darlinhrt : DAC, did you send me chat log yet?
SandraDodd : Thanks for being here! LJDBush : Counterpoing is nearly onomatopoeic. Darlinhrt : where is Hem???
SandraDodd : It is! Like bouncing ideas back and forth!

DACunefare :

Nope, Darlin... As soon as I get off. Try keyword HEM. Darlinhrt : ok, DAC,, thank you 🙂
SandraDodd : Darlinhrt (I can't type anymore!) you can go to keyword HOMESCHOOL and then HEM and PHS are icons to the right there. One stop shopping at HOMESCHOOL

DACunefare :

Ladies, I invite you all to the Wed. chat, 5 - 7 eastern, homefront hall. We can talk unschool... or whatever. 🙂
SandraDodd : being irritating to you. Darlinhrt : thank you all for this,, I am gathering all this info and trying to figure out, take care GardenFev : Is it possible to read those folders off line? I stopped because of it. Is that the logging?
SandraDodd : I never got to the part where I was going to say Unit Studies could be pretty cool. R homesch : Okay, now I'm hungry for more info. Bye for now.

DACunefare :

Yes Garden. MadBallew : Can we post in the folders yet? GardenFev : Sandra, not at all. At least it was over my head if it was.

DACunefare :

Bye R. 🙂
SandraDodd : Yes. You can just open a log and then any folder you open goes into your log and you sign off and read away!

DACunefare :

Mad... Post in Catch All folder if the folder you want is full.
SandraDodd : Okay.... I was just afraid I was being too pushy for you. Sorry if so. GardenFev : I'll try logging. I know downloading didn't work. I'm still green around the ears.
SandraDodd : An hour's not long 🙂.

Brooke E W : hello


SandraDodd : Deborah, thanks.

DACunefare :

Nope... we may need to extend this one. 🙂


SandraDodd : It was two hours in one!

DACunefare :

Hi Brooke. We're just ending the Unschool chat.

DACunefare :

Anytime Sandra!

MadBallew : Hi Brooke, are you an unschooler?


SandraDodd : Metta... you're late!

Mettaphor :

Hi everyone!


SandraDodd : My hands are tired!

Mettaphor :

Sorry! Do I have to go sit in the corner or something??

GardenFev : Tendonitis?

DACunefare :

Ladies... Thanks for coming to our Unschool chat. Bye now! 🙂

GardenFev : Bye DA

DACunefare :

No... Just we're all done already... 😕

Mettaphor :

oh, bummer

GardenFev : Oh, so we have to go home?

DACunefare :

You are welcome to stay and use the room, but I have to leave, and I think Sandra may too.


SandraDodd : I'm willing to stay a while.

GardenFev : I have been recommending a book on hs and got to a very unflatering section on J Holt.

MadBallew : What book?

Mettaphor :

What book, Garden?

GardenFev : Home Schooling:Political, Historical, Pedagogical Perspectives.

MadBallew : where did you get it

GardenFev : The wonderful library. I am just about to buy it. I have to order direct from the publ.


SandraDodd : What's the criticism of Holt? Is it just a book supporting a particular style of homeschooling?

Mettaphor :

so...what did it say about Holt?

DACunefare :

So you're fine... 🙂 Gotta run. Bye again.

Mettaphor :

bye DA

MadBallew : bye A

GardenFev : No support either way. I wanted to see the historical, political. The author thought Holt was contradictory. But the author also was wrong on his description of Holts' unschooling. Confused him and the Isreal Kubuz


SandraDodd : Holt's writings encompass several years. He started out a school reformer, and ended up believing the schools could not be reformed.

MadBallew : What was the authors slant? was he against HS or just (? ourt ) to write on a "hot Topic"
(slight garble; sorry)
GardenFev : He felt Holt was an isolationist.


SandraDodd : OH BROTHER


SandraDodd : If the author made a mistake like that, I would be afraid to confuse the political and historical part too.

GardenFev : This book is a compilation of authors. This one was way off.


SandraDodd : I feel weird about being asked to explain unschooling so much. It's fun, but I feel kind of like a missionary, and I don't think it's a religion, and I feel like a salesman, yet I stand to gain nothing... I just feel uncomfortable in a way.

Mettaphor : It's a different way of thinking about life. Some people just can't get it.

MadBallew : I am tired of people asking why "those kids are not in school when we are out in public

Mettaphor :

LOL

SandraDodd :

I just say, "They don't go to school."

Mettaphor :

Here schools go all year round. Kids are out of school at different time. No one's ever asked us.

SandraDodd : We're at the end of a chat, WO1

---

A later collection of definitions of unschooling



... and more! Friendly and concise!



More of the AOL "Unschooling Barrage"