Unschooling Discussion from October 1995

Unschooling Discussion from October, 1995

This used to be mailed out in two parts, as part of The Unschooling Barrage in the mid-to-late 1990s, to people who wanted unschooling information they could read when they were offline.

HmSchDodd : I don't use formal protocol for my workshops, so if you have something you want to add, you can jump.

BenzBunny : ?

HmSchDodd : If you just want me to back up or wait for you to type something, type a single-line question mark
HmSchDodd : like that!
HmSchDodd : ?
HmSchDodd : 🙂
HmSchDodd : Yes?
HmSchDodd : I meant to say "jump in" not just plain "JUMP" 🙂

BenzBunny : Would it be easier to think of a private room name now so we just go if needed?

HmSchDodd : Sure. Name one that's easy to type that nobody else will guess randomly.

BenzBunny : unschl?

HmSchDodd : (Sorry I said I wouldn't put anybody on the spot and I just did; didn't mean to....
HmSchDodd : Okay. Let's spell it out though so we don't have to memorize the abbreviation.

BenzBunny : ok;

HmSchDodd : If we get yucky harrassment just pull down "LOBBY"; and that will take you out of this room. Click on "rooms"
HmSchDodd : and then "private" and then type in homeschool.

***[THAT IS WHERE I REALLY MESSED UP--THOUGHT I WAS TYPING "UNSCHOOL]***

I want to put up some of the questions I was sent, without senders' names and discuss them, but...

[and then two more interruptions (in addition to the one I edited out earlier) came and we left that room, from which some went to the room I SAID and some went to the room I MEANT and eventually we were in one room. I'M SORRY for the confusion, folks--it was entirely my fault. From now on my private room is going to be HmSchDodd. That can be cut and pasted from the chat or the e-mail reminder of the class or whatever.]

HmSchDodd : I'm so sorry.

[more time passed while we IM'd one another and got together]

I think if people take a month or two to think, to decide what they want out of homeschooling, to try to figure out what they believe and need for their family, all the other stuff becomes much easier.

Nobody needs to confess anything here, nor volunteer any information. Stop me if you're confused.

I've heard these reasons and thoughts given when people were asked what they wanted for their kids:

• high paying job
  
• no regrets about missing school experience
  
• options to go into any field of their choice
  
• discipline
  
• doing God's will
  being independent thinkers
  
• keeping up with schooled kids

• I just want them to be happy and compassionate people.

*** I am having such a difficult time getting my own school experience out of my mind. ***

One participant sent this in advance--(all the quoted stuff upcoming is from e-mail sent before the class) Someone else referred to being 'on duty as teacher'--You will save yourself a lot of grief, frustration and sorrow, and a lot of fighting with your kids, if you release and forget as much "school stuff" as you possibly can.

Campermom : Now you tell me!!

HmSchDodd : This includes grades, grade-levels, tests, schedules, "school days," bells, recess, vacations...

HmSchDodd : (SORRY Campermom! 🙂 )

Campermom : ?

HmSchDodd : Yes?

Campermom : what about prep for college, no grades, etc?

HmSchDodd : I'll get to it.

HmSchDodd : I know it's scary. If anyone here is/was a certified teacher, please type * and that's all.

HmSchDodd : *

ForHIM3 : you mean state certified don't you

HmSchDodd : Right. "A real teacher"--trained and papered.

HmSchDodd : maybe just me!
HmSchDodd : Okay, quickly let me tell you what teachers learn in college. They do NOT learn that stuff you see them do in the classrooms. They learned that like we did--from having it done to them. That's just tradition. What they learn in college is child psychology, which anybody can read about in a few hours, they learn all about testing and statistics, designing valid tests, figuring out how to arrange things on and around a bell curve so they can pick out the best and worse students--they learn to make lesson plans with measurable goals, they learn (if they're lucky) some group management tricks, they learn a lot about politics, a little about the history of education, a lot about the theory of learning, language acquisition, etc.

MOST of that is not needed for homeschooling.

Some of that can get in the way of homeschooling. If you're worried about where your child falls on somebody else's bell curve, somebody else's chart, you are spending precious energy you could be spending loving that child. Each child will learn at his own pace no matter WHAT the surroundings are.

Moonstorm4 : I do not miss trying to fit my boys into the program of the local school

HmSchDodd : Moonstorm, I don't blame you.

BenzBunny : What about state mandated testing and having to 'live up to" that type of pressure or goal?

HmSchDodd : Benz, if you're in a state with annual testing required, that's the hardest situation of all. Most states don't require annual. Does yours?

BenzBunny : Yes - if you want to be '"legal", anyhow

Moonstorm4 : My boys need to be tested every 3 years and the school accomodates our schedule

HmSchDodd : How close are you to the border of the next state? 🙂 Seriously, if I lived where it was required, I would file conscientious objection papers of some kind--most people don't want to do that kind of research and documentation, and I don't blame you.

Each child's growth curve is different, in or out of of school. Some catch on fast, read early, and goof off for the next ten years. Some work hard, suffer confusion and pressure, and catch on when they're fourteen and learn everything in one year. I had a friend who was always slow and when he hit puberty he ZOOMED ahead of everyone. I'm so sad to think of those years of his embarrassment at not quite "getting it."

BenzBunny : conscientious objection???

ForHIM3 : You need to check the law literally, some allow evaluations instead of testing

BenzBunny : Can you let me know how to find the right addresses, etc. to research that later?

HmSchDodd : Conscientious objection: I actually believe test scores are very bad for people-- I've seen kids damaged emotionally (and sometimes physically--parents get all goofy) about low, or high, or even average test scores.

BenzBunny : I know I don't "test well"

HmSchDodd : My husband, who's plenty bright, tested at 95 in 5th grade and was treated like a future gas station attendant by many teachers and relatives. Meanwhile I was treated like the hope of the earth, the one who would cure cancer and settle the moon. It's awful. It's stupid. It's distracting.

ForHIM3 : check with your state home school support or HSLDA... I'm in FL and know it well but other states will have to know what statute to be looking for

Moonstorm4 : offer a portfolio instead of the test. cite Vermont as an example HmSchDodd : ForHIM's right-- even if the law mandates a test, you might be able to have it given one-on-one by a counselor, or even by the parents in the presence of a proctor. But that's a different subject and we can discuss that on the boards. Lots of people could help with that.

What I want to do is reassure you all that there are thousands of kids who have learned enough to be productive, happy adults without ever having been told to do a math exercise, without ever having been tested, or punished for not knowing 7x8... THOUSANDS.

There are hundreds (probably thousands) of kids who have been left alone to learn to read, and by the time they're eleven they're reading anything they want to, when at nine they might have been reading not a thing; nothing; nada.

This is a scary thing--it's like bungie jumping. You might understand the physics of the cord and see other people do it and still be too afraid to jump off that tower.

ForHIM3 : I understand what you are saying but how do you line it up with not going extreme with slothfullness and lack of stewardship and wanting good scholarship?

HmSchDodd : Back to the philosophical intro--if your goal in life is stewardship and industry, you need to put the child in charge of his record keeping. You need to define for yourself and your family what "scholarship" is. Literally, it is being a student. In our culture right now it has the connotation of being clean, sitting up straight, having neat handwriting, getting good grades...

ForHIM3 : trying to restore the scholarship that began this great nation... true self taught learning knowing how to learn

HmSchDodd : You can't teach someone how to learn. You can put interesting things in front of them. You can explain things in such a way that their interest is sparked and their mind starts to work.

ForHIM3 : how to research?

HmSchDodd : You can't implant knowledge or ideas or abilities in someone. They have to develop their own. They could pretend to research. You could do "research drills" like fire drills. That's what exercises are. It's "pretend you cared what this word meant" or "Pretend you wanted to know all about South Dakota."

You do you and your children a huge favor when you use their REAL interests instead of faking some up.

BenzBunny : I understand what you are saying

HmSchDodd : You can show them reference books and libraries and the Web, and show them the things they REALLY want to read.

BenzBunny : I know I don't hold knowledge in that isn't of true interest to me! In school I struggled with a project unless I could choose the topic myself

HmSchDodd: Aside from this little pep-rally gathering, did any of you go to school to learn to homeschool? I bet there's not anyone here who hasn't read magazines, research articles, essays, books on one person or another's pet theories about homeschooling...
That was REAL research.

BenzBunny : Okay, yes, I have researched home/unschooling!

HmSchDodd : If I asked you, just for fun, to go out and research the life of J.R.R. Tolkien's grandfather, you would be crazy to say "Okay," and go do it. Don't let me waste your time! And don't waste your kids' time!

Moonstorm4 : I worked at the Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential and they advocated hs

HmSchDodd : There are SO many former teachers, former school counselors homeschooling, that I think sometimes if a major magazine did an article spotlighting that fact that there could be mass panic.

HmSchDodd : I want to get to more of the specific questions in a bit. We have another hour.

But first I wanted to tell you guys that one thing I did learn and study in college before I went off to become a teacher, as I had wanted to do since I was very little, was that the only way people learn is if they are first safe, fed, have human affection, a place to live that's safe for them, and THEN they might learn something. This goes against any attempts to threaten or coerce children into "doing schoolwork."

Abraham Maslow was a researcher/psychologist who came up with that theory, and it was proven in lab studies all over the place. When people are afraid, or hungry, they cannot physically learn as well as when they feel secure and their needs have been taken care of. The theory is called "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs."

I was taught that the way education was going and HAD to go was child-initiated learning, "The Open Classroom" where materials are available, children are assisted and encouraged, and teachers are facilitators of the children's natural need (not desire, but NEED) to learn.

It sounded great! All I read was wonderful! Then they chucked me into the real world, public school classroom, no money, yucky desks, kids from abusive homes, 130 kids a day, shuffling through like K-Mart shoppers... It cannot work in that atmosphere.

The theory sounds true. They told me the the ancient traditions of threatening kids do not work. Then they gave me no alternatives. What's really great is that at home, with just a few kids, and kids you know intimately, and who trust you, it can work and it DOES.

Lots of people are afraid to try it, and if they don't try it they can't really believe it can work.

Some try for a week and say "It didn't work." It takes months to see results, but once the kids are weaned from you telling them what to do, and from doing little tricks for "good boy" rewards--for external praise instead of self- satisfaction--they just take off and you'd never WANT to slow them down long enough to "teach them" again.

Two years ago I would've been uneasy making this claim, but I've seen too many families right in front of me who proved my last remaining fears were baseless.

Just last night I was visiting with friends whose kids are in a half-day special school program. The parents are required to chart and document 15 hours worth of work at home. The public school calls it "half day homeschooling." We got to joking and razzing each other about our choices (they said they send their kids to my house to learn things 🙂) and their fear that their kids might turn 18 and not know everything was voiced. I made the radical suggestion that if they didn't know multiplication when they were 18 they could buy a calculator for $5.

I was joking, but I wasn't.

I have adult friends who missed some major lesson or another--punctuation, algebra, some SCHOOL THING--and they pick it up in twenty minutes the day they decide they need to have it.

BenzBunny : I guess that's why I never grasped geometry? 🙂

HmSchDodd : It's not too late to learn geometry!! It's easy! It's hard to learn it when you're 12 or 13 and in the throes of puberty and surrounded by weirdos 🙂

HmSchDodd : If you had a child who wanted to go to college and discovered he was lacking something, he could learn it then!

BenzBunny : So what you are saying, in part, is we need to decide what we feel is important for them to know... and if we decide penmanship or knowing multiplication tables by heart is important to US then WE will need to work with them to accomplish this... SMR BAER : Or, the child needs to decide what they need to know?

Moonstorm4 : a willingness and joy in learning and the desire to be problem solvers

BenzBunny : No, Sandra, really, I still have a problem with "where will I ever use this in my life?!" 🙂 My husband does all the geometry configurations... 🙂 I ask him, "how do you do that?!" but really, I know how... I just don't have an interest. Actually not as much interest is fear of failure... AGAIN!

Moonstorm4 : fear of failure is a learned concept, perhaps our children should not be taught this

BenzBunny : Boy, I'll say!
BenzBunny : My husband wants our son (10) to practice his penmanship when the kid DOES NOT care or want to. I hope [he'll read] this log and grasp the concept of unschooling...

Beck2830 : Possibly we determine what values we want our children to have & they guide us in terms of their interest & how we can best reach them thru that interest???

HmSchDodd : I agree! about that failure business. "Schooling" is traumatic. I wrote to some newbie the other day, "Bring the kids home; don't bring school home." I had never thought of it in those terms, but I'm going to keep that little gem in mind.

BenzBunny : I know for sure I'd have a different personality if I had been hsed

Campermom : Benz, that is a problem here too, geting the dad's to let go of school experiences:)

HmSchDodd : We have a dad in the room; go easy on dads 🙂

BJChan1 : Is it the dads who usually resist doing homeschooling the most?

HmSchDodd : Sometimes. 🙂

HmSchDodd : Let me put up some more of the specific concerns:

BenzBunny : I feel that like his reading readiness, it'll all come in time. Am I wrong? He's reading great now, by the way! 🙂

HmSchDodd : I think if things don't come in their own time, they wouldn't have come in school either. I believe that with all my heart. Lots of juvenile delinquents are just kids who were shamed for not being good students and it made them mean.

BenzBunny : I know my husband had lousy penmanship... we started writing and you should see how he improved through the years of "practice"! 🙂

HmSchDodd : ***What if a child doesn't have any interest in anything but sports? How do you create the interest?***

Campermom : how do you undo what the schools have done to this point?

HmSchDodd : Campermom--I'll get to that next.

BenzBunny : Buy them books (check them out) on the subjects they like most!

HmSchDodd : "Sports" is a HUGE field of interest!!

Moonstorm4 : sports scores are math, articles are writing, bios are history

HmSchDodd : Say soccer--they could get a map and mark where the games and teams are. Olympics--make a list of where the Olympics have been over the years, and predict where they might be in the future based on geography, politics, financial realities...

Don't TELL the kid you're not talking about sports.

BenzBunny : that's a GOOD point! :)

HmSchDodd : Baseball--history of baseball can lead to WWII and racism and manufacture of bats and balls, and it won't be apparent that you've "moved into other areas" unless you declare it. I think sometimes homeschooling parents ruin the fun by saying "This is math! Or by using a teachery voice and revealing to the child after some really cool project, "That was Science and math and history! Aren't you proud!?" If you want to review and brag about it, do it in private with consenting adults 🙂

Campermom asked about undoing school-harm, school habits. There's a term used sometimes: "Deschooling" It's like "dehorsing" with car salesmen, or "de-lousing" 🙂 You need to have a fire break between the school days and the beginning of your expectations that there will be happy and productive unschooling.

If you've never read Growing Without Schooling (it's a magazine) I recommend highly that you get some back issues (borrow or whatever) and read them. They're heavy with accounts by teenagers about how they finally got interested in things after coming home to homeschool. There are kids who come home and start glorious projects the next day. There are others who just want to sleep and cry and mope for six months. It seems, from reading their accounts years later, that it made no difference in their eventual grasp of what they needed to know.

Langer101 : Maybe you mentioned this while I was out but, the basics of grammar or math require certain core knowledge that requires quite a learning curve to get to--doesn't it?

HmSchDodd : Langer--I know why you believe that, and I know why it's scary to trust that kids can get those things without "the curve" we were told was so necessary to our very being, but too many people have done it for us to deny anymore that it can be done.

Langer101 : As a former English HS teacher I'm not sure they are all that necessary-

SMR BAER : What if the kid says he misses the "bullies" at school and wants to go back? Moonstorm4 : Smr mine did, now they feel better about themselves and get attention in other ways

HmSchDodd : ...going back to school... My niece went back and my sister's going nuts 🙂 Personally, I would let my kids try it, but I'd let them come home anytime they wanted, including some afternoon at 12:30 if they had had enough.

About the core learning required for math and English--it can be accomplished with games, and friendly explanations, and songs and real projects.

I just had a kid counting and charting M&M colors--do any of you remember which folder had the call to count M&M's and send the counts in? We have the M&M's and we have the chart! 🙂 HmSchDodd : ***Can kids really learn Language in daily life and if so HOW?!? *** (another advance question)

BenzBunny : that's me 🙂

SMR BAER : Is UNschooling child lead learning?

HmSchDodd : That's your M&M project or that was your question?

BenzBunny : It's my project

HmSchDodd : GREAT! 🙂

HmSchDodd : About this language thing.... I used to teach English and I understood "the subject of a sentence" the first time anyone ever explained it to me.

Moonstorm4 : we work on writing to make sense

KentKathy : How does an Unschooled child get a high school diploma?

PJADK : Must run, the kids wrote a play just now and want me to see it. Now that's unschooling!

HmSchDodd : ... Wait. I'm all mixed up. PJ the log is in your mail.

BenzBunny : I'd like to hear more about english...

HmSchDodd : Kathy--you're next.

HmSchDodd : The first time anybody said 'This is the subject of the sentence' I understood--not because the teacher was great, but because it was an easy concept for me. I can repeat a tune after hearing it once, usually. I cannot draw for beans, and I can't swim. Each person has his own skills and interests, and we can't put square pegs in round holes or real people in the mold of "model scholar."

IF you need a high school diploma, you can sign your kid up with Clonlara, which is an unschooling style school, and they give real diplomas. 🙂 If you just need a GED, you can have the child take the test when he's old enough to have legally dropped out of high school in your state, I think. If you just want a child to get into college, you probably don't need GED or a diploma--just apply to the school. My sister got into a college with nothing in 1972--nowadays it's much more common.

Depending on your state's laws (check with a local support group on it) you might be able to get a diploma or certificate or something through the group--just stating that you homeschooled and the child has completed the 12th year.

Moonstorm4 : Vt will write a letter stating a child has been enrolled in a hs progam

KentKathy : Thank-you.

Campermom : colleges seem more interested in SAT test scores than a diploma

HmSchDodd : Sorry the answer was "It depends," but y'know--most answers are! 🙂
HmSchDodd : That's ANOTHER thing that makes it hard when parents "play teacher." Both they and the child get frustrated in those areas in which there is not one simple, proveable answer. If you can get your child (and yourself) interested in pursuing topics just for the joy of finding out trivial fun stuff, of checking on how many different answers there are to single questions (like was the outcome of the Civil War good or bad?) the better both your lives are, and your grandchildren's lives too. I figure unschooling is an investment in my grandchildrens' happiness. 🙂

Campermom : science in the Magic Kingdom of Disney world

HmSchDodd : To get kids interested in any subject, use the fun books first, and the 'text books' later (if at all)

Some people say "If you finish this chapter you can watch a video about what you just studied." or "After we study the Middle Ages we'll read a historical novel about a little Viking boy!" START with the novel and the movie, and you might find you don't really need the textbook. A child who isn't feeling pressured to perform will ask many more questions that one who is afraid asking a question will earn him an assigned report or research project.

If you make a kid look up everything he asks about, you'll teach him to stop asking.

HmSchDodd : I was looking in a bread cookbook this morning at 3:30 a.m. (part of a long story) and I found science, geography, math, chemistry... There were explanations about which ingredients really needed the full amount of salt, and what high elevations would do to certain processes... There were histories of obscure grains, and tales of origins or particular breads like what country they were from, and when, and why. There are paintings, Renaissance portraits and still-lifes with loaves of bread in them--you could tie just about anything to anything.

KentKathy : How do you teach children to live a disclipined life? And how to do the hard things they don't want to do?

Moonstorm4 : by example

HmSchDodd : Kathy--are the things different than you'd be dealing with if the kids were in school? And are you expecting more of them than people their age can really do, maybe? I don't really want you to answer, just to consider the questions.

BenzBunny : How old are they?
BenzBunny : Our kids have responsibilities at home -
BenzBunny : taking care of their pets DAILY, etc.

KentKathy : 17 1/2, 13, 11, 9, 4 1/2, 3, 7mos.

BenzBunny : If they don't, what will happen? that kind of thing (the animal's life depends on them) HmSchDodd : If living a disciplined life is really your primary goal, you need to look at that before anything else.

KentKathy : We do that too. My oldest is not transitioning the way I think he should.

HmSchDodd : As far as unschooling, I just think it's preferable to structured "schooling" for getting kids to be lifelong learners, and to want to learn on their own.

BenzBunny : Transitioning?

HmSchDodd : With a curriculum the kids have no incentive to learn more than is on the list. They finish the book and they're FREE!

With unschooling, without a book, they don't know what the limits are and they often exceed them. Not year by year, but life by life.

This is another thing you need to dump to get rid of school-habits.

The idea that your nine-year-old needs to be where nine-year-olds are, etc. Instead of breaking a natural God-given life up into years and semesters and months, look at the child's life--what does a man need to know? What does a woman need to know?

Campermom: since we've home schooled we've never finished a text book. I felt quilty at first, but not anymore.

KentKathy : Sandra, I want my children to be able to motivate themselves to work in the real world and to excel. I fully agree with unschooling. I am just asking for tips on how to get them to do the things they don't want to do.

HmSchDodd : School is repetition and competition and you can avoid both of those to a great degree.
HmSchDodd : Kathy, give us a concrete example, please.

BenzBunny : things?

HmSchDodd : Campermom--are you glad or sad you haven't finished a textbook?

KentKathy : I used my son's only love—Baseball—to try to teach him to learn. Percentages, Biographys

HmSchDodd : I would think you could use them as reference books and skip what's not appealing.

KentKathy : etc. He never has developed any interests that can get him a job. They are all just expensive hobbies. I didn't require him enough.

HmSchDodd : Right here on my keyboard is a business card--"MAGIC MOMENTS"--Sports and science fiction collectibles and memorabilia." sports cards, kenner Starting line up, memorabilia...

BenzBunny : Where does he get money now, or does he?

HmSchDodd : (Does he watch Star Trek when he's not playing baseball? 🙂 )

KentKathy : no

BenzBunny : You would like him to get a job?

HmSchDodd : I'm just joking about that. Honestly, though, what in high school is preparing kids for particular jobs besides the high school diploma itself?

BenzBunny : NOT MUCH!!! 🙂
BenzBunny : (speaking from personal experience, of course. 🙂)

HmSchDodd : I think if you were to read some of what's in Growing Without Schooling you would feel ten times better about his burning interest.

Campermom : my son has worked all summer and bought a moped

KentKathy : Yes, I want him to get a job. He hasn't had a lot of drive. I'm haunted by thoughts that I've done something wrong because he's unmotivated. Do any of you ever feel that way?

HmSchDodd : I bet you're worried about him, but what if he didn't even have THAT interest? What if he just waited for you to tell him what to care about or know?
And don't forget how very different people's personalities are. I bet you have some very quiet but wise and responsible adult friends.

BenzBunny : Kathy, where does he get his money now?
BenzBunny : Oh, I can relate to that, Kathy!

HmSchDodd : You probably have some friends with a burning hobby--bicycling, skiing, card playing--something they just live to do. They're not bad people. I bet their parents were worried when they were kids, too.

KentKathy : We sent him to school and he got himself kicked out. Now he's home looking for a job. He has to look from 9:00 to 3:00, but he's not giving it a very good effort.

HmSchDodd : If our pressure on our kids makes things worse, it's an absolute effect on the situation. It's hard to know what to do, but I've never seen a situation where putting MORE pressure on a hurt or hurting kid was the answer.

BenzBunny : So he is looking for a job without luck thus far?

HmSchDodd : What if YOU just find him a job, Kathy?
HmSchDodd : Maybe he's just too young to know what to do or how.
HmSchDodd : He's probably really afraid, too, even if he's not showing it.

KentKathy : We did that before we sent him away to school. He got fired for stealing. Then he found a new job and did O.K., but got caught shoplifting at a record store. We sent him away to learn in a more disclipined atmosphere. My husband could hire him but is afraid because he has caused employers so much trouble so far. BenzBunny : He's only 16, right?

HmSchDodd : Our time's up, and I'm really sorry, but I'll send you all an e-mail with the Holt address, and if I left out any of your concerns I'll try to follow up. I'll re-read the e-mail and the log.

HmSchDodd : I'm willing to stay here, but for those who need to go I'll send something soon.

HmSchDodd : Anyone who wants to stay can stay, too.

Langer101 : Please send log Sandra, I had to be off line for a bit -- thanks - great help!

HmSchDodd : I will!

Campermom : Thanks Sandra. I hope that we can do this again real soon!!

SMR BAER : Thanks SO much!

BenzBunny : Where did you send him away to?

HmSchDodd : Kathy, what if you pay him to stay home. I'm serious.

BenzBunny : Or do you mean to school?

HmSchDodd : It's fruity-sounding, but you might come out cheaper in the longrun than to pay for counselors and lawyers and all that.

BJChan1 : I enjoyed the session. Bye!

HmSchDodd : Bye! Thanks for being here. Sorry for the confusion.