Robyn Coburn

A couple of weeks ago, in a discussion about rules and manners I made the
following statement:



<<<Firstly, we don't have rules, at least we don't ever express our requests
to Jayn in those terms. I guess we have a few "habitual behaviors" that we
pretty much always ask of Jayn, such as to wait for one of us to go down to
the pool with her, even if there is someone already swimming. Speaking to
other visitors to our home in terms of "our house rules" would feel
hypocritical to me, even though I am sure that other kids have a greater
understanding of what the word means than Jayn does. I usually say more like
"I prefer you to...." or "That could be dangerous/disturbing to someone..."
or "Those things are not available today" (for some toy that is put up).>>>



This is where I am now, in September. However I had a feeling that this
issue had been discussed before and I started searching my own archives.
Sure enough I found a post from March of this year, where I made the
following statement:



<<<<I am not above using the fact that other children are rule-bound and
brainwashed by saying something along the lines of "respecting the house
rules" - even though we don't actually have any! >>>>



A whole different state of mind, and way of communicating with others.



It is amazing to me that just six months of rigorous discussion and debate,
and the fine example of others before me, can make such a difference to my
attitude about an issue � and my courage in openly living Unschooling
principles. Finding courage in the face of the overwhelming disapproval from
others, even strangers, is a crucial journey for me.



I hope I always keep moving in the direction of more integrity, more
self-knowledge, and greater self-awareness in the peeling the onion kind of
way. I feel like my current attitude is modeling honesty for Jayn, rather
than expediency or manipulation. Once again the importance of changing our
words to change our thinking is reinforced.



Robyn L. Coburn










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Crystal

> It is amazing to me that just six months of rigorous discussion
and debate,
> and the fine example of others before me, can make such a
difference to my
> attitude about an issue – and my courage in openly living
Unschooling
> principles. Finding courage in the face of the overwhelming
disapproval from
> others, even strangers, is a crucial journey for me.
>
>
>
Robyn, I totally agree with this. Unschooling and these lists have
helped me immensely to become a better parent.

The other night we watched that Dr Phil family show that was on at
night. Now, I never liked Dr Phil, but we watched it because I
wanted to hear what he was going to say about different issues in
the family. I was on the polar opposite side of most of the things
he had to say, so that made great discussion for me and the kids.
For example, there was a woman with a 4-yo daughter. The woman
bought her daughter everything she saw and the daughter would throw
temper tantrums and even bite her if she didn't buy it. Dr Phil
told her to take 99% of the toys away from the little girl and throw
them away or give them away and let her know the other 1% could go
to if she didn't behave.

My kids and I discussed how that could make the little girl feel
scared and unsure about her life and how we thought the mom could
help the girl in a nicer way. Millions of people watched that show
and are thinking that if Dr Phil said it, then it must be true. My
15-yo son said to me, "Mom, you're so much better than him at
this." So I told him, that's what I do when I go to my message
boards every day. We discuss stuff like that and what to do about
it. That's how we come up with better ideas than Dr Phil.

Crystal

pam sorooshian

These two posts from Robyn and Crystal got me thinking about what I get
from reading the unschooling list and boards. I'm not getting courage
from the rigorous discussion and debate and fine example - I somehow
was born with that (I mean, that KIND of courage, to openly live how I
want - I don't seem to care too much about approval of others).

BUT - I get something else - several something else's. I get ideas,
mostly. Ideas I'd have never come up with on my own in a lifetime. And
I get challenged in my thinking, I get pushed and prodded to seriously
consider ideas that, at first, I tend to dismiss. Can't do that here.
Those ideas I dismiss are the ones that keep coming back up here and
banging me on the head - think about me, think about me <G>. And I get
encouragement - a LOT of that - by knowing that there are so many moms
(mostly) out there willing and really eager to think hard about
alternative ways of raising our kids, peaceful ways - it encourages me
to think that the world might not be going to hell in a handbasket,
after all. And, I get energized to make changes in my own life - I am
very very much a person who needs a group to "do things with," I don't
do well in doing anything at all on my own, without interaction. The
interaction here is immensely important to me, to feel part of this
"group" of thinking, brave, peace-loving parents is a big part of my
identity -- if you read Frank Smith, it is his idea of identity that
I'm talking about. Being part of this group has a big influence on my
own ability to learn - just like Frank Smith talks about kids
identifying with being a "math learner" or "reader," etc. (If you
haven't read Frank Smith's "The Book of Learning and Forgetting," I
highly recommend it.)

Another thing this list is for me is a gift from all of you - I simply
ENJOY hearing about your lives with your children. Call me a voyeur,
but I find it endlessly fascinating - FAR more interesting than any
sitcom or drama show on TV.

-pam
On Sep 25, 2004, at 5:46 AM, Crystal wrote:

>> It is amazing to me that just six months of rigorous discussion
> and debate,
>> and the fine example of others before me, can make such a
> difference to my
>> attitude about an issue – and my courage in openly living
> Unschooling
>> principles. Finding courage in the face of the overwhelming
> disapproval from
>> others, even strangers, is a crucial journey for me.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

24hrmom

<< It is amazing to me that just six months of rigorous discussion and
debate,
and the fine example of others before me, can make such a difference to my
attitude about an issue - and my courage in openly living Unschooling
principles. Finding courage in the face of the overwhelming disapproval from
others, even strangers, is a crucial journey for me. >>

I agree wholeheartedly! The last couple of years have been full of personal
thought and growth for me. I am always discussing and debating posts and
formulating replies in my head ... while in the shower, doing the vacuuming,
the dishes and so on ... even when I don't get a chance to post them.

A few weeks ago I even had the courage to send one of my articles to my SIL!
Of course I had to snail mail it, since she hates computers (and all the
time her husband and son spend on them), but I included my website address
just in case she found some courage and wanted to read some more. :-)
Haven't heard from her yet .... LOL!

Pam L
www.livingjoyfully.ca

[email protected]

<< I'm not getting courage from the rigorous discussion and debate and fine
example - I somehow was born with that (I mean, that KIND of courage, to
openly live how I

want - I don't seem to care too much about approval of others). >>

I do. I get courage in a round about way.

In a conversation in Peabody last month, I told someone if everyone I knew
changed their minds and stopped unschooling I would still keep doing what I'm
doing. But the courage I get is to be more openly radical and to *know* that
it is possible to help another family move closer to a really productive
unschooling life if they want the input.

Sometimes I look at this page (which is too full for more additions, and I
hate to split it up) http://sandradodd.com/list
and I remember the days I first read some of those, and I remember the times
I've met some of those moms and seen their kids. It's fairly well
indescribable.

"Productive" in "productive unschooling life" I think means (as I used it
above, anyway, as I was thinking it) that it produces confidence, a feeling of
togetherness, learning on top of learning, and it begins to sustain itself on
past successes. Once unschooling really gets going in a family, it's like a
siphon and the family no longer needs as much outside input as they might have
needed at first. It proves itself once it's flowing. The "How will I know
that. . ." and "How can I tell if. . ." questions start to fade away.

Sandra

pam sorooshian

On Sep 25, 2004, at 8:47 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> "Productive" in "productive unschooling life" I think means (as I used
> it
> above, anyway, as I was thinking it) that it produces confidence, a
> feeling of
> togetherness, learning on top of learning, and it begins to sustain
> itself on
> past successes. Once unschooling really gets going in a family, it's
> like a
> siphon and the family no longer needs as much outside input as they
> might have
> needed at first. It proves itself once it's flowing. The "How will
> I know
> that. . ." and "How can I tell if. . ." questions start to fade away.

YES. And, imagination plays a part in this, too. There are those people
who can imagine what unschooling could possibly be like and their
confidence comes from inside themselves, even before they've see the
"proof" in their own or others' kids. But, even then, I'm sure, it
takes a bit of courage to go for something that only they can really
imagine <G>.

For me, I came to believe that unschooling was the way for us to go
because the people promoting it were the people I admired and respected
and wanted to be more like. So, for me, it was largely about the
unschooling parents, themselves, at the beginning - and then, as I met
them in person, it was about the kids and the families and the whole
atmosphere of focus and energy and trust and joy that they carried with
them everywhere they went. I just always figured that they looked like
they were making the most out of life - and that's what I wanted.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Nisha

What about when the kids have food sensativities? How do you handle
that without feeling like a food cop?
Both of my kids have behaviorial reactions to high fructose corn
syrup,(uncontrolable rages, absolutely drunk acting happy,*SCREAMING*
for either happy or angry reasons. Just out of control behavior. And
when they don't have those foods, they don't act that way, so I don't
buy them.) my son also has digestive issues with straight dairy.
(bowel cramps, explosive diarhea, etc)
The foods that don't have those in them, I'm usually okay with, but
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head completely around the let
them eat whatever they want, whenever they want when we have to deal
with the results of them having major behavior problems or digestive
problems because of those choices. That just doesn't make sense to
me. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has a child with sensativities
to certain foods. I didn't see that addressed in the article I read.
I'd love to hear some insight on that particular part of that issue.
Nisha

enchanted dreams

I couldn't watch Dr. Phil for this reason. I seem to do everything exactly
opposite of the way he says to do it. He might be a really smart guy, but I
don't think he's very smart about how to raise kids.
The kicker was watching him tell the mom of a 9month-old that she had better
find a babysitter to leave her daughter with, because she needs to go away
for the weekend with her husband,and to teach her daughter to get along
without her. 9 months!!! Made the mother look like an idiot for wanting to
stay with her baby. I can't watch him anymore.

Cheryl

>>>The other night we watched that Dr Phil family show that was on at
night. Now, I never liked Dr Phil, but we watched it because I
wanted to hear what he was going to say about different issues in
the family. I was on the polar opposite side of most of the things
he had to say, ...

Crystal

Danielle Conger

Nisha wrote:

What about when the kids have food sensativities? How do you handle
that without feeling like a food cop?
Both of my kids have behaviorial reactions to high fructose corn
syrup,(uncontrolable rages, absolutely drunk acting happy,*SCREAMING*
for either happy or angry reasons. Just out of control behavior.
===============

My Sam (4) has a very similar reaction to HFCS, CS, dextrose--pretty much any form. While we were doing the elimination diet trying to figure all this out, we talked a lot about allergies and paying attention to our body and the signals it sends us.

At home, I've pretty much just eliminated all foods that contain CS. For the past several months, we've been sampling and finding substitute foods that taste good and satisfy. We've found really good brands of most everything we eat: cheddar crackers, crackers, graham crackers, popscicles, sorbet, yogurt, ice cream cones, etc. I just buy Breyer's Ice Cream instead of other brands, ghirardelli chocolate, organic vanilla extract (yup, it's in that too!), that kind of thing. We make lots of chocolate chip cookies, chocolate chip pancakes. For us, it's a matter of having all the same kid kind of things in the house that don't have CS. Sam never misses anything while he's at home and has free choice of foods in much the same way that other unschooled kids do--his choices just don't have CS in them.

The hard part is when we're out because absolutely everything has CS in it. Pretty much we just deal with it. If we're going someplace where I can bring food, we do--like the park or someplace where everyone's picnicing. When we visit my in-laws, I'll bring stuff with us, which at least cuts down some on the amount of CS he ingests. But, when we're on vacation and eating out a lot, there's very little we can do. The up side of that is that it reinforces for Sam how crappy it makes him feel.

So, I don't limit, per se, it's more of an even exchange. When we're out he's free to make the decision for himself in the same way that I'll decide I'm going to eat that hot chili sauce despite the gastro-intestinal response and insomnia that inevitably follow.

Hope that helps!


--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html



Nisha wrote:

>
> The foods that don't have those in them, I'm usually okay with, but
>I'm having a hard time wrapping my head completely around the let
>them eat whatever they want, whenever they want when we have to deal
>with the results of them having major behavior problems or digestive
>problems because of those choices. That just doesn't make sense to
>me. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has a child with sensativities
>to certain foods. I didn't see that addressed in the article I read.
>I'd love to hear some insight on that particular part of that issue.
>Nisha
>
>
>
>
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/25/2004 1:45:53 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
nishamartin@... writes:
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head completely around the let
them eat whatever they want, whenever they want when we have to deal
===========

The advice is more against not making arbitrary rules than about providing
them all the food on the planet.

There are problems with forcing food and with limiting it.
There are problems with "paying" kids to eat (bu giving them more and happier
food after they eat vegetables and meat).

The ultimate extension of the idea that kids should decide whether they're
still hungry and eat when they're hungry is that ideally they can have free
choice and make good choices.

When this grows out of on-demand breastfeeding, and giving solids when a
child reaches for them, basically, it's easy to get there gradually. I know it's
hard for people to move from a more controlling and scheduled food-life to
something involving choices, and it's not a necessary part of unschooling either.

If a kid's allergic to something though, that just not going to be one of the
choices he has, right? And some people grow out of allergies, so in some
cases it's worth checking sometimes to see if it's still a problem.

Here's something about the parenting considerations:

http://sandradodd.com/chore/option

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nisha

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
If a kid's allergic to something though, that just not going to be
one of the choices he has, right? And some people grow out of
allergies, so in some cases it's worth checking sometimes to see if
it's still a problem.
>

Thanks for the response. And it seems like I am already doing most
of the stuff suggested. It's just sometimes I feel like a food cop
with the high fructose corn syrup. It's in so many things and we
have to read all the labels. We try to find alternatives that the
kids enjoy for the things they can't have. (things that are kosher
for passover don't have the HFCS, and neither does anything that is
organic, or stuff that we make ourselves.) I grew up with huge
control issues, and of course food was part of that. I don't want to
do that with my kids. But because of the sensativities, we have to be
really careful. I'm honest with the kids, they know why we avoid the
stuff. At the store, they are each allowed to pick out one thing that
they want to get. the only restrictions on that item is, it can't
have HFCS or straight dairy in it. They surprise me with the
choices they make. Some days it's stuff I'd expect, cookies or junk,
but others it's bananas or strawberries or a new kind of bread or
something else that actually would be something that I'd encourage
them to eat more of.
Thanks
Nisha

Elizabeth Hill

** It's just sometimes I feel like a food cop
with the high fructose corn syrup. It's in so many things and we
have to read all the labels. We try to find alternatives that the
kids enjoy for the things they can't have. (things that are kosher
for passover don't have the HFCS, and neither does anything that is
organic, or stuff that we make ourselves.)**


According to the latest issue of Utne Reader, regulations in labeling
organic food have been relaxed recently to the point that there IS such
a thing as "organic high-fructose corn syrup", even though high-fructose
corn syrup is artificially created. Now, well known health food
manufacturers are probably not going to start putting it in their
products, but I don't think you can reliably rely on the word "organic"
to mean that a product does not contain the high fructose syrup. Sorry.

Betsy

PS I've read some stuff in my local newspaper theorizing that high
fructose corn syrup may be the major contributing factor to rising rates
of diabetes in populations that eat the "American" diet. So avoiding it
as much as you can may have double the health benefits that you
expect. Anyway, I love paranoid theories, and this one makes a lot of
sense to me even though it hasn't been empirically proved.

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/25/2004 6:13:33 PM Central Standard Time,
danielle.conger@... writes:

At home, I've pretty much just eliminated all foods that contain CS.


~~~

Don't you pretty much have to avoid the entire center section of the grocery
store? :)

When my husband was on the Atkins Diet (lost 50 pounds last year and it's
still off), my weekly shopping consisted of the produce, dairy and meat
sections, and that was it. I began to realize that I could live without ever going
into the center sections of the store, just shopping the walls.

Light bulb moment, there. ;)

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

Tuck wrote: Don't you pretty much have to avoid the entire center section of the grocery
store? :)
=======

*rofl* Yeah, at the regular store. That whole wall of cereal is off limits. CS is in everything, and I mean everything.

Whole Foods has tons of stuff without it, though, which is great. The first couple of months were incredibly painful because I had to read *every* label. We've found lots of bad substitutes and, after a lot of trial, a couple really good substitutes. Now, we can have everything in the house we used to have but without the CS and without all the major meltdowns, which makes for a much more peaceful and joyful home for everyone because we're not all walking on eggshells waiting for something to set him off.

<>--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

Nisha

--- In [email protected], Danielle Conger
<danielle.conger@c...> wrote:
We've found really good brands of most everything we eat: cheddar
crackers, crackers, graham crackers, popscicles, sorbet, yogurt, ice
cream cones, etc.

What brand of graham crackers?? I've been looking everywhere.... and
I use mexican vanilla. It doesn't have it in it. I've learned that
things made outside the US are less likely to have the CS and HFCS in
them than the foods made in the US. In Europe it's not considered fit
for human consumption.


> So, I don't limit, per se, it's more of an even exchange. When
we're out he's free to make the decision for himself in the same way
that I'll decide I'm going to eat that hot chili sauce despite the
gastro-intestinal response and insomnia that inevitably follow.


Thanks Danielle it does help.
nisha
>
>
> --Danielle

Nisha

--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
, but I don't think you can reliably rely on the word "organic" to
mean that a product does not contain the high fructose syrup. Sorry.
>
> Betsy


Oh I read the label of everything we buy. And if we go out somewhere
I check the website for where we are going and try to find choices he
can have.(he can have McNuggets with honey we bring from home, and
apple juice to drink at mcDonalds on those rare occasions he goes to
McDs for example. He can have the yogurt parfait, but not the ice
cream sundaes or cones. He knows that and is okay with it almost all
of the time. I have a couple of food allergies, true allergies that
will send me to the hospital, so we have had several talks about that)

Anyway, I love paranoid theories, and this one makes a lot of
> sense to me even though it hasn't been empirically proved.

I like hearing different theories too, and it's not like the
different agencies in our government have never lied to us about
anything. LOL
nisha

Robyn Coburn

Trader Joe's is a good market chain for foods without the bad stuff. They
even have a brand of Chocolate Choc. Chip pancake mix without any corn
syrup.

Robyn L. Coburn


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Lanie Carlson-Lim

i love trader Joes! The one in DE is about 30 mins away though...so i make
it there about once a month

Lanie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: The food issues...


> Trader Joe's is a good market chain for foods without the bad stuff. They
> even have a brand of Chocolate Choc. Chip pancake mix without any corn
> syrup.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 9/22/2004
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/25/2004 5:02:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
enchanteddreams@... writes:

>>>The other night we watched that Dr Phil family show that was on at
night. Now, I never liked Dr Phil, but we watched it because I
wanted to hear what he was going to say about different issues in
the family. I was on the polar opposite side of most of the things
he had to say, ...

Crystal<<
*******************
My mom likes Dr. Phil and told me to watch the show, but I couldn't find it.
I guess I didn't miss much!

Nancy B.







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