D Klement

sue.m.e@... wrote:
> I think the over institutionalization of the population along with the
> overly prolongued childhood is a lot to do with the current situation.
> It came as a real surprise to me that even 50 years ago most
> Americans finished high school and that even then quite a large
> percentage went on to college. What surprised me even more is
> that so many parents work so long and hard to pay to get their kids
> through college. By the time a person is in college thay should be
> making their own way in life, but here so many of them are
> supported by Mommy and Daddy well into their 20's driving brand
> new cars that were graduation gifts, carrying a credit card so they
> can spend Mommy and Daddy's hard earned money when they
> should be earning their own.
>
> Way too may times I've heard someone in their 20s refered to as
> "just a kid".... people tend to rise [or sink] to other's expectations.
>
>
>
> Sue

I agree with you Sue.
We've made a point of telling our kids that we will pay for HALF of
college or university.
They have to come up with the other half. They are the ones deciding
what they want to take so they should shoulder some of the
responsibility for the financial burden.

I pay good money to kids who do extra jobs to lighten my load ( I have
MS for those who don't know ).It beats paying a house cleaner to come in
once a week. This they either spend or put in the bank. They have ample
opportunity to make money for college without even leaving the house. If
they choose to spend what they earn that's their choice but we're still
only paying for half of college etc.

Outside work costs them time travelling and sometimes money for travel,
uniforms etc.
Safety is another reason I'd rather they work close to home or at home.
They also get paid crap wages for hard menial work at places like
McDonald's etc.

They all have chores to do because they are part of the family but other
larger jobs I pay a decent wage for.

Example ... Katie got paid $20 for doing some very heavy yard work
(dismantling a rock garden with very large rocks ... some the size of
three basketballs in length ).
Whe wasn't expecting to get paid but she put in such an all out effort I
felt she deserved fair compensation.
She also babysits and for awhile was a odd jobs girl for an elderly
neighbour until the neighbour moved.

When they make their own way in the world they learn how to be
responsible for their money and themselves.

Buzz .... I would never turn my kids away from our home. They know they
will always find food and a bed here if they need it. They'll also find
bathrooms to be cleaned....and yard work etc... to do to help compensate
for their room and board ;-)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Debra Caruso

I wholeheartedly agree.Our 4 sons have always had to help around the
house,and sometimes painting with dad.I pay my 18 year old who is a
senior to take digital pics for my business,and pay him for it.YOungest
helps me with my business and pay him too.
I have tried to raise my boys to be self sufficient also.So far so
good,We always told our sons if they wanted to go to college they would
either have to get scholarships,aid,or pay themselves,we don't have the
money for that.Son Daniel got a full ride for Engineering school in
College,Thank God,it really took stress off of us.We help him out with
money from time to time,but he has 2 jobs for the summer,and won't ask
us for a thing.I don't have MS ,I have Fibromyalgia,and there are lots
ofdays I feel like I can't move....So any help is welcome :)deb

D Klement wrote:
>
> sue.m.e@... wrote:
> > I think the over institutionalization of the population along with the
> > overly prolongued childhood is a lot to do with the current situation.
> > It came as a real surprise to me that even 50 years ago most
> > Americans finished high school and that even then quite a large
> > percentage went on to college. What surprised me even more is
> > that so many parents work so long and hard to pay to get their kids
> > through college. By the time a person is in college thay should be
> > making their own way in life, but here so many of them are
> > supported by Mommy and Daddy well into their 20's driving brand
> > new cars that were graduation gifts, carrying a credit card so they
> > can spend Mommy and Daddy's hard earned money when they
> > should be earning their own.
> >
> > Way too may times I've heard someone in their 20s refered to as
> > "just a kid".... people tend to rise [or sink] to other's expectations.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sue
>
> I agree with you Sue.
> We've made a point of telling our kids that we will pay for HALF of
> college or university.
> They have to come up with the other half. They are the ones deciding
> what they want to take so they should shoulder some of the
> responsibility for the financial burden.
>
> I pay good money to kids who do extra jobs to lighten my load ( I have
> MS for those who don't know ).It beats paying a house cleaner to come in
> once a week. This they either spend or put in the bank. They have ample
> opportunity to make money for college without even leaving the house. If
> they choose to spend what they earn that's their choice but we're still
> only paying for half of college etc.
>
> Outside work costs them time travelling and sometimes money for travel,
> uniforms etc.
> Safety is another reason I'd rather they work close to home or at home.
> They also get paid crap wages for hard menial work at places like
> McDonald's etc.
>
> They all have chores to do because they are part of the family but other
> larger jobs I pay a decent wage for.
>
> Example ... Katie got paid $20 for doing some very heavy yard work
> (dismantling a rock garden with very large rocks ... some the size of
> three basketballs in length ).
> Whe wasn't expecting to get paid but she put in such an all out effort I
> felt she deserved fair compensation.
> She also babysits and for awhile was a odd jobs girl for an elderly
> neighbour until the neighbour moved.
>
> When they make their own way in the world they learn how to be
> responsible for their money and themselves.
>
> Buzz .... I would never turn my kids away from our home. They know they
> will always find food and a bed here if they need it. They'll also find
> bathrooms to be cleaned....and yard work etc... to do to help compensate
> for their room and board ;-)
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
> Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
> Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
> Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
> e-mail- klement@...
> Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
> Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4633/14/_/448294/_/962028517/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]

D Klement

Debra Caruso wrote:
>
> I wholeheartedly agree.Our 4 sons have always had to help around the
> house,and sometimes painting with dad.I pay my 18 year old who is a
> senior to take digital pics for my business,and pay him for it.YOungest
> helps me with my business and pay him too.
> I have tried to raise my boys to be self sufficient also.So far so
> good,We always told our sons if they wanted to go to college they would
> either have to get scholarships,aid,or pay themselves,we don't have the
> money for that.Son Daniel got a full ride for Engineering school in
> College,Thank God,it really took stress off of us.We help him out with
> money from time to time,but he has 2 jobs for the summer,and won't ask
> us for a thing.I don't have MS ,I have Fibromyalgia,and there are lots
> ofdays I feel like I can't move....So any help is welcome :)deb
>

Gee, I'm begining to think I should start an e-mail loop for
homeschooling parents with auto immune/neurological disorders ;-)
I've come across about 10 parents with either fybro, lupus or MS.

Buzz (another Debbie)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dia Garland

Sue,

What a wonderful observation! I agree totally that we rise or sink to
other's expectations. One of my pet peeves is the whole teenage culture
here in America. My grandparents, actually even my parents, were supporting
themselves by the time they were 17. We give our kids such mixed messages
today! On the one hand we allow them to dress like adults, especially young
girls, let them engage in adult behaviors, yet shield them from the
consequences of their actions with "he/she is just a kid". No wonder they
are confused!

Dia

Debra Caruso

What a novel idea !!!Deb :)

D Klement wrote:
>
> Debra Caruso wrote:
> >
> > I wholeheartedly agree.Our 4 sons have always had to help around the
> > house,and sometimes painting with dad.I pay my 18 year old who is a
> > senior to take digital pics for my business,and pay him for it.YOungest
> > helps me with my business and pay him too.
> > I have tried to raise my boys to be self sufficient also.So far so
> > good,We always told our sons if they wanted to go to college they would
> > either have to get scholarships,aid,or pay themselves,we don't have the
> > money for that.Son Daniel got a full ride for Engineering school in
> > College,Thank God,it really took stress off of us.We help him out with
> > money from time to time,but he has 2 jobs for the summer,and won't ask
> > us for a thing.I don't have MS ,I have Fibromyalgia,and there are lots
> > ofdays I feel like I can't move....So any help is welcome :)deb
> >
>
> Gee, I'm begining to think I should start an e-mail loop for
> homeschooling parents with auto immune/neurological disorders ;-)
> I've come across about 10 parents with either fybro, lupus or MS.
>
> Buzz (another Debbie)
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
> Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
> Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
> Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
> e-mail- klement@...
> Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
> Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4633/14/_/448294/_/962030237/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]

Bonnie Painter

I have to respond to this. Sue, you are so right. We shelter our children
from so many things. I agree when they are young that they shouldn't be
exposed to many things. There does come a point in time, however, when
children are old enough to be responsible for themselves and it's not 18! I
think that most kids are more than capable of being responsible by 16 or
younger. I know that I basically have been responsible for myself (other
than food, shelter) pretty much since I was 14 years old. If I had a job,
then I bought my school clothes. I paid for college (haven't finished, but
will some day). I paid for my very used car and my gas. I couldn't agree
with you more (having a sister who is 24 and living at home, at least she
did mostly pay for college and her car).


>From: sue.m.e@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] institutionalization of children
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:25:32 +0000
>
>
> > This is an unschooling issue in my mind. Unschooling, "un-daycare-ing",
> > it's the same thing. It's all about the de-institutionalization of
> > children!
> >
> >
> > Sonia
>
>Sonia,
>
>This one little paragraph of yours summed it all up for me!
>
>This country, wonderful in so many ways has it's children
>institutionalized more than any non-communist country, it also has
>more of it's adults institutionalized [imprisoned] than any other
>country in the world. Is this a co-incidence? I don't think so.
>
>I think the over institutionalization of the population along with the
>overly prolongued childhood is a lot to do with the current situation.
> It came as a real surprise to me that even 50 years ago most
>Americans finished high school and that even then quite a large
>percentage went on to college. What surprised me even more is
>that so many parents work so long and hard to pay to get their kids
>through college. By the time a person is in college thay should be
>making their own way in life, but here so many of them are
>supported by Mommy and Daddy well into their 20's driving brand
>new cars that were graduation gifts, carrying a credit card so they
>can spend Mommy and Daddy's hard earned money when they
>should be earning their own.
>
>Way too may times I've heard someone in their 20s refered to as
>"just a kid".... people tend to rise [or sink] to other's expectations.
>
>
>
> Sue
>
>The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
>My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
>Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
>Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm
>
>"To believe in something, and not to live it,
> is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[email protected]

I had to reply to this. I too have been responsible for my self and others
since I was 14. Actually younger but that was not on a constant basis. I
told my 17yo today (after a heated discussion of something she feels that I
am responsible for providing) that she has some choices to make.

She is a wonderful child. Did not grow up with everything in the beginning
but when I was able I tried to make up for past time. BIG MISTAKE!!! She
works two jobs and saves money well however, her money is her money. She is
willing to give you a loan but of course you pay it back. Now that I stay at
home and unschool her two younger brothers (she did not homeschol) she feels
I am being unfair to her. She does nothing around the house unless tied in
chains to do so on the idea that she works. I can't give them everything
they want anymore and do not want to do so. I have realized my mistakes and
I know it will take some time to undo the harm.

My kids have good morals however, have become very materialistic. VERY MUCH
WORKING ON THIS!! After Hurricane Andrew my daughter went to every house in
the neighborhood that had old people and helped them clean up the mess, paint
thier house and anything else that had to be done for free. She was the
saint of the neighborhood. What happened to that little girl? Me that is
what happened.

I have just started this quest of rehabilitation (as I grew up with
absolutely nothing and made my own way) and have realized it is not going to
be easy. BUT it is necessary for their own sake. Any ideas and prayers are
welcome.

Thank you for listening,

Lorrie

Debra Caruso

HI Amy :) I am always having to explain to people why,sometimes I can't
go here,or do this or that.I get tired so easily,I have trouble getting
to sleep at night.I know there are lots women who are dealing with
things like this ,deb :)





Amy wrote:
>
> I think this is a great idea. I have fibromyalgia and I often have days
> (like today) when the fatigue and pain become so overwhelming, i don't think
> i'll be able to get off the couch much less hs my kids. the support from a
> list like this would be great.
> amy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: D Klement <klement@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 7:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] institutionalization of children
>
> > Debra Caruso wrote:
> > >
> > > I wholeheartedly agree.Our 4 sons have always had to help around the
> > > house,and sometimes painting with dad.I pay my 18 year old who is a
> > > senior to take digital pics for my business,and pay him for it.YOungest
> > > helps me with my business and pay him too.
> > > I have tried to raise my boys to be self sufficient also.So far so
> > > good,We always told our sons if they wanted to go to college they would
> > > either have to get scholarships,aid,or pay themselves,we don't have the
> > > money for that.Son Daniel got a full ride for Engineering school in
> > > College,Thank God,it really took stress off of us.We help him out with
> > > money from time to time,but he has 2 jobs for the summer,and won't ask
> > > us for a thing.I don't have MS ,I have Fibromyalgia,and there are lots
> > > ofdays I feel like I can't move....So any help is welcome :)deb
> > >
> >
> > Gee, I'm begining to think I should start an e-mail loop for
> > homeschooling parents with auto immune/neurological disorders ;-)
> > I've come across about 10 parents with either fybro, lupus or MS.
> >
> > Buzz (another Debbie)
> > --
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
> > Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
> > Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
> > Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
> > e-mail- klement@...
> > Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
> > Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
> > http://click.egroups.com/1/4633/14/_/448294/_/962030237/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4633/14/_/448294/_/962052056/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]

Bonnie Painter

Lorrie,

When you have it figured out, please let me know as I too have created to
little monsters. My parents worked so hard to give us what we had and I
really appreciated it. I remember one Xmas when they gave my sister and I
bikes (me a ten speed and her a banana seat) and when we walked on the porch
and saw them, my sister just shrugged her shoulders and walked away. I
thought my Dad was going to kill her!! I wouldn't have blamed him and I see
that happening with my kids.

Any ideas out there for us??

Bonnie


>From: Momandmore@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] institutionalization of children
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:56:50 EDT
>
>I had to reply to this. I too have been responsible for my self and others
>since I was 14. Actually younger but that was not on a constant basis. I
>told my 17yo today (after a heated discussion of something she feels that I
>am responsible for providing) that she has some choices to make.
>
>She is a wonderful child. Did not grow up with everything in the beginning
>but when I was able I tried to make up for past time. BIG MISTAKE!!! She
>works two jobs and saves money well however, her money is her money. She
>is
>willing to give you a loan but of course you pay it back. Now that I stay
>at
>home and unschool her two younger brothers (she did not homeschol) she
>feels
>I am being unfair to her. She does nothing around the house unless tied in
>chains to do so on the idea that she works. I can't give them everything
>they want anymore and do not want to do so. I have realized my mistakes
>and
>I know it will take some time to undo the harm.
>
>My kids have good morals however, have become very materialistic. VERY
>MUCH
>WORKING ON THIS!! After Hurricane Andrew my daughter went to every house
>in
>the neighborhood that had old people and helped them clean up the mess,
>paint
>thier house and anything else that had to be done for free. She was the
>saint of the neighborhood. What happened to that little girl? Me that is
>what happened.
>
>I have just started this quest of rehabilitation (as I grew up with
>absolutely nothing and made my own way) and have realized it is not going
>to
>be easy. BUT it is necessary for their own sake. Any ideas and prayers
>are
>welcome.
>
>Thank you for listening,
>
>Lorrie

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Amy

I think this is a great idea. I have fibromyalgia and I often have days
(like today) when the fatigue and pain become so overwhelming, i don't think
i'll be able to get off the couch much less hs my kids. the support from a
list like this would be great.
amy
----- Original Message -----
From: D Klement <klement@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] institutionalization of children


> Debra Caruso wrote:
> >
> > I wholeheartedly agree.Our 4 sons have always had to help around the
> > house,and sometimes painting with dad.I pay my 18 year old who is a
> > senior to take digital pics for my business,and pay him for it.YOungest
> > helps me with my business and pay him too.
> > I have tried to raise my boys to be self sufficient also.So far so
> > good,We always told our sons if they wanted to go to college they would
> > either have to get scholarships,aid,or pay themselves,we don't have the
> > money for that.Son Daniel got a full ride for Engineering school in
> > College,Thank God,it really took stress off of us.We help him out with
> > money from time to time,but he has 2 jobs for the summer,and won't ask
> > us for a thing.I don't have MS ,I have Fibromyalgia,and there are lots
> > ofdays I feel like I can't move....So any help is welcome :)deb
> >
>
> Gee, I'm begining to think I should start an e-mail loop for
> homeschooling parents with auto immune/neurological disorders ;-)
> I've come across about 10 parents with either fybro, lupus or MS.
>
> Buzz (another Debbie)
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
> Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
> Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
> Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
> e-mail- klement@...
> Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
> Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4633/14/_/448294/_/962030237/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To Unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected]
>
>