Dyslexia-long-help?
Penn Acres
The post below mine about dyslexia was received on another list. I have removed identifying info.
Our Kara demonstrates most of these characteristics. She is 9
We unschool. We homeschooled from age 5 and half to 6 and half.
She spends a great deal of time on NeoPets. PlayStation-Harvest Moon. Videos. Most of her reading "skills" come through these . We used "How to Read in 100 Lessons and Bob books when we homeschooled.)
She resisted all of this in a huge way. She seldom is interested in reading much else although she does occasionally read early level books,usually if we are in the car and not much else there.
She resists anything and everything to do with "math" or numbers even in ordinary life. we never present things as "math". she simply has no interest. At all.
I am on most of the unschooling lists. I am hugely interested and motivated. I have read and thought about the dyslexia discussions as they arise on the lists, former Message board.
I have read books on the subject. My approach has been to let her develop at her own speed, facilitate her learning by making things available to her to support the ways she seems to absorb information.
Indeed , I don,t see how else she could really "learn" if it wasnt available in the way she does "learn".
But still, the list of identifying characteristics fits her so well that I need to see if I am missing something in all of this.
Is there acceptable "help" out there that is necessary for her to work this through or can it be done this way -"in her own way".
We are in a small isolated area so outside of the public school where they have "remedial" classes there are no other resources.
I have seen various "excercises" in some books on dyslexia. Are there unschoolers who have worked thru this without outside resources. I doubt she would want to participate and she has not ever brought the subject up.
However, she says her friends call her "Dory" ( Finding Nemo ) because she can't remember things. so she is not oblivious to it all.
Would appreciate feedback from anyone who actually is or has experienced some of this.
Grace
On another cold and drizzly mountain morning.
............................................................................
Dyslexia is always a possibility though because extreme fatigue
while working with written words is definitely a symptom.
Basically, children with dyslexia have a big discrepancy between
their language and non language I.Q. The biggest problem seems to
be that they use the right side of the brain when reading. The left
side was meant for language (reading, writing etc) so using the
right side isn't effective and very tiring for them. It's like
being right handed but writing for an extended period of time with
the left hand. It's tiring.
My suggestion is to rule out any problems with the eyes first. If
they don't find anything wrong, you could take them in for an
evaluation with a edu-psychologist to pinpoint the problem for your
own personal use. If they do have dyslexia, there are techniques
and programs to retrain the brain to use the left side while reading
but the younger you get them, the better long term results you'll
get. It makes a huge difference and after awhile, they don't get as
tired. Dyslexia is inherited so if you have a parent, grandparent,
brother, sister etc who still has difficulty reading and spelling,
the risk is there. If not, that's great.
Does My Child Have Dyslexia?
Individuals with dyslexia usually have some of the following
characteristics:
Difficulty with oral language Late in learning to talk
Difficulty pronouncing words
Difficulty acquiring vocabulary or using age-appropriate grammar
Difficulty following directions
Confusion with before/after, right/left, and so on
Difficulty learning the alphabet, nursery rhymes, or songs
Difficulty understanding concepts and relationships
-
Difficulty with reading Difficulty learning to read
Difficulty identifying or generating rhyming words or counting
syllables in words (Phonological Awareness)
Difficulty with hearing and manipulating sounds in words (Phonemic
Awareness)
Difficulty distinguishing different sounds in words (Auditory
Discrimination)
Difficulty in learning the sounds of letters
Difficulty remembering names and/or the order of letters when
reading
Reverses letters or the order of letters when reading
Misreads or omits common little words
"Stumbles" through longer words
Poor reading comprehension during oral or silent reading
Slow, laborious oral reading
-
Difficulty with written language
Trouble putting ideas on paper
Many spelling mistakes
May do well on weekly spelling tests, but there are many spelling
mistakes in daily work
Difficulty in proofreading
-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Our Kara demonstrates most of these characteristics. She is 9
We unschool. We homeschooled from age 5 and half to 6 and half.
She spends a great deal of time on NeoPets. PlayStation-Harvest Moon. Videos. Most of her reading "skills" come through these . We used "How to Read in 100 Lessons and Bob books when we homeschooled.)
She resisted all of this in a huge way. She seldom is interested in reading much else although she does occasionally read early level books,usually if we are in the car and not much else there.
She resists anything and everything to do with "math" or numbers even in ordinary life. we never present things as "math". she simply has no interest. At all.
I am on most of the unschooling lists. I am hugely interested and motivated. I have read and thought about the dyslexia discussions as they arise on the lists, former Message board.
I have read books on the subject. My approach has been to let her develop at her own speed, facilitate her learning by making things available to her to support the ways she seems to absorb information.
Indeed , I don,t see how else she could really "learn" if it wasnt available in the way she does "learn".
But still, the list of identifying characteristics fits her so well that I need to see if I am missing something in all of this.
Is there acceptable "help" out there that is necessary for her to work this through or can it be done this way -"in her own way".
We are in a small isolated area so outside of the public school where they have "remedial" classes there are no other resources.
I have seen various "excercises" in some books on dyslexia. Are there unschoolers who have worked thru this without outside resources. I doubt she would want to participate and she has not ever brought the subject up.
However, she says her friends call her "Dory" ( Finding Nemo ) because she can't remember things. so she is not oblivious to it all.
Would appreciate feedback from anyone who actually is or has experienced some of this.
Grace
On another cold and drizzly mountain morning.
............................................................................
Dyslexia is always a possibility though because extreme fatigue
while working with written words is definitely a symptom.
Basically, children with dyslexia have a big discrepancy between
their language and non language I.Q. The biggest problem seems to
be that they use the right side of the brain when reading. The left
side was meant for language (reading, writing etc) so using the
right side isn't effective and very tiring for them. It's like
being right handed but writing for an extended period of time with
the left hand. It's tiring.
My suggestion is to rule out any problems with the eyes first. If
they don't find anything wrong, you could take them in for an
evaluation with a edu-psychologist to pinpoint the problem for your
own personal use. If they do have dyslexia, there are techniques
and programs to retrain the brain to use the left side while reading
but the younger you get them, the better long term results you'll
get. It makes a huge difference and after awhile, they don't get as
tired. Dyslexia is inherited so if you have a parent, grandparent,
brother, sister etc who still has difficulty reading and spelling,
the risk is there. If not, that's great.
Does My Child Have Dyslexia?
Individuals with dyslexia usually have some of the following
characteristics:
Difficulty with oral language Late in learning to talk
Difficulty pronouncing words
Difficulty acquiring vocabulary or using age-appropriate grammar
Difficulty following directions
Confusion with before/after, right/left, and so on
Difficulty learning the alphabet, nursery rhymes, or songs
Difficulty understanding concepts and relationships
-
Difficulty with reading Difficulty learning to read
Difficulty identifying or generating rhyming words or counting
syllables in words (Phonological Awareness)
Difficulty with hearing and manipulating sounds in words (Phonemic
Awareness)
Difficulty distinguishing different sounds in words (Auditory
Discrimination)
Difficulty in learning the sounds of letters
Difficulty remembering names and/or the order of letters when
reading
Reverses letters or the order of letters when reading
Misreads or omits common little words
"Stumbles" through longer words
Poor reading comprehension during oral or silent reading
Slow, laborious oral reading
-
Difficulty with written language
Trouble putting ideas on paper
Many spelling mistakes
May do well on weekly spelling tests, but there are many spelling
mistakes in daily work
Difficulty in proofreading
-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AnneO
Hi Grace.
My Jake has always had dyslexic traits (he is almost 14 ~ always
unschooled). It hasn't interfered with his life, much, though.
When he was younger, he wanted so much to draw Pokemon, but what came
out of his hand didn't match what was in his head. He spent much of
his days very frustrated over this fact.
I remembered reading in *The Gift of Dyslexia* about working with
clay ~ the book said that if kids could *feel* the way letters are
*supposed to* be written, that would help them when writing them.
Even though the situation was different, I bought him some Sculpey.
He absolutely loved it and was so good at working with it. He made
every single Pokemon (that was when there were only 150!) and we had
them displayed all over our home.
A year or two later, he picked up a pencil again to draw, and found
that, at that time, what came out of his hand DID match what was in
his head.
It may have been the time difference, but I do believe working with
the clay helped his mind and his hand to find common ground!
Also ~ a few years ago he began drawing a comic strip. It's adorable
and really funny ~ about his brother's pet guinea pig. If his
writing was completely illegible on the comic strip, I'd tell him
that it looks great, but I can't read it! He'd either fix it and
write more carefully, making absolute sure to make the letters
correct, or he'd ask me to write it for him. So, because of his
desire to have people read his wonderful comic strip, his handwriting
became more legible, and his letters would come out looking right
(for that moment, anyway!).
Is your daughter highly sensitive or non-typical in other ways
besides displaying dyslexic traits?
If so, you may be interested in looking into my group, Unschooling
Non-Typical Children:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling/
***She seldom is interested in reading much else although she does
occasionally read early level books,usually if we are in the car and
not much else there.***
Do you read to her? We listen to audio books all the time ~ where we
live, everything is far away (grocery store is 1/2 hour away), so we
have a lot of time in the car and we always have a book going.
Also ~ because Jake loves literature, his dyslexic traits didn't stop
him from reading ~ just reading out loud. He said it was a challenge
for him when the words had to go from the book to his brain and out
his mouth, but he had no trouble when he just read to himself.
As for writing besides the comic strip, I've always been his scribe.
He would receive e-mails and I would type the replies for him. He
wrote stories by dictating them to me, as he found he *wrote* best by
pacing back and forth while he was thinking. He even won a writing
contest at the library by dictating the story to me, checking to make
sure I was spelling things correctly, and making sure I added enough
exclamation points!
So *writing* is much more than the physical act ~ it's in your head
and your heart and however it gets down on paper or in the computer
doesn't really matter much.
Now Jake types at the computer himself a LOT. He's the fastest one-
finger typist I know! He's on a lot of message boards for things he
loves ~ Pokemon, Neopets, etc. He types e-mails. And he still draws
beautifully ~ and makes his comic when he's inspired, also.
He still makes letters and numbers backwards, but, as I said, it
hasn't interfered with his life much ~ in fact, his creative,
wonderful life wouldn't be what it was today if I had tried to *fix*
his unique traits, including his dyslexic tendencies. It's part of
Who He Is and part of what's in his heart and his mind...and that's
always been honored and celebrated, just the way it is.
Be Well ~
Anne
My Jake has always had dyslexic traits (he is almost 14 ~ always
unschooled). It hasn't interfered with his life, much, though.
When he was younger, he wanted so much to draw Pokemon, but what came
out of his hand didn't match what was in his head. He spent much of
his days very frustrated over this fact.
I remembered reading in *The Gift of Dyslexia* about working with
clay ~ the book said that if kids could *feel* the way letters are
*supposed to* be written, that would help them when writing them.
Even though the situation was different, I bought him some Sculpey.
He absolutely loved it and was so good at working with it. He made
every single Pokemon (that was when there were only 150!) and we had
them displayed all over our home.
A year or two later, he picked up a pencil again to draw, and found
that, at that time, what came out of his hand DID match what was in
his head.
It may have been the time difference, but I do believe working with
the clay helped his mind and his hand to find common ground!
Also ~ a few years ago he began drawing a comic strip. It's adorable
and really funny ~ about his brother's pet guinea pig. If his
writing was completely illegible on the comic strip, I'd tell him
that it looks great, but I can't read it! He'd either fix it and
write more carefully, making absolute sure to make the letters
correct, or he'd ask me to write it for him. So, because of his
desire to have people read his wonderful comic strip, his handwriting
became more legible, and his letters would come out looking right
(for that moment, anyway!).
Is your daughter highly sensitive or non-typical in other ways
besides displaying dyslexic traits?
If so, you may be interested in looking into my group, Unschooling
Non-Typical Children:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling/
***She seldom is interested in reading much else although she does
occasionally read early level books,usually if we are in the car and
not much else there.***
Do you read to her? We listen to audio books all the time ~ where we
live, everything is far away (grocery store is 1/2 hour away), so we
have a lot of time in the car and we always have a book going.
Also ~ because Jake loves literature, his dyslexic traits didn't stop
him from reading ~ just reading out loud. He said it was a challenge
for him when the words had to go from the book to his brain and out
his mouth, but he had no trouble when he just read to himself.
As for writing besides the comic strip, I've always been his scribe.
He would receive e-mails and I would type the replies for him. He
wrote stories by dictating them to me, as he found he *wrote* best by
pacing back and forth while he was thinking. He even won a writing
contest at the library by dictating the story to me, checking to make
sure I was spelling things correctly, and making sure I added enough
exclamation points!
So *writing* is much more than the physical act ~ it's in your head
and your heart and however it gets down on paper or in the computer
doesn't really matter much.
Now Jake types at the computer himself a LOT. He's the fastest one-
finger typist I know! He's on a lot of message boards for things he
loves ~ Pokemon, Neopets, etc. He types e-mails. And he still draws
beautifully ~ and makes his comic when he's inspired, also.
He still makes letters and numbers backwards, but, as I said, it
hasn't interfered with his life much ~ in fact, his creative,
wonderful life wouldn't be what it was today if I had tried to *fix*
his unique traits, including his dyslexic tendencies. It's part of
Who He Is and part of what's in his heart and his mind...and that's
always been honored and celebrated, just the way it is.
Be Well ~
Anne
Barbara Chase
>I doubt she would want to participate and she has not ever brought theI think you have answered your own question here. If she isn't interested,
>subject up.
then wait. Not that this wouldn't be true for all kids, but I do say that
waiting is really important if she is dyslexic.
I am dyslexic. It's my own opinion... but I think that getting testing to
find out is really only helpful if you want to help your child pretend they
are "normal". I believe it's much more helpful to be open to new odd ways
of learning, and then allowing your child to develop those new odd ways.
As a dyslexic, I make the oddest connections between things -- and
ultimately, this is my most joyous gift!
>However, she says her friends call her "Dory" ( Finding Nemo ) because sheOK, so she hears these comments from other kids. But, how does she feel
>can't remember things. so she is not oblivious to it all.
about it? Does it effect her self-esteem? IMHO, helping her maintain a
really good feeling about herself is WAY more important than helping her
learn tricks so that she can pretend to learn the way others do.
Granted, I don't have a child with dyslexia. Well, for that matter I
might... I just don't think I'd notice it ;-) Even so I can feel for your
concern about wanting to do everything you can to help your daughter become
the wonderful adult that she will become.
>>If they do have dyslexia, there are techniques and programs to retrainWell, I know that this is only one issue wrt to dyslexia. For some,
>>the brain to use the left side while reading but the younger you get
>>them, the better long term results you'll get. It makes a huge
>>difference and after awhile, they don't get as tired
dyslexia is about how their visual system works, not which side of the
brain is being used. I won't go into it here. But again, IMHO, dyslexia
is a label for kids who learn differently. And I say -- what's wrong with
that?
Also, in my own experience, I don't believe that you need to train the
brain at the earliest age possible. Yes, this is true if you're in the
school system and you don't want to be behind everyone else. But, the
brain is very flexible even at an old age.
>>Does My Child Have Dyslexia?Oh I'm sorry, but this list is so schooly! I didn't find a single thing on
>>Individuals with dyslexia usually have some of the following
>>characteristics:
this list that is a problem for a child, unless you happen to be in school
and aren't measuring up to everyone else. The only thing on this list that
has been a problem for me as an adult is the issue of getting left/right
confused. This can be a problem if I'm the navigator. I just use my body
and point, before I use my words. My body never gets it wrong!
Everything else on this list I found my own unique way of solving.
So my advice is to let your daughter find her unique abilities, and to
allow those to flourish. You will be amazed what will come of them!
Oh, I have another thought. If you did do some schooling wrt reading, it
may take her quite awhile to deschool from this experience. As you said,
she resisted it in a big way. It took me years and years to finally learn
the way that reading worked for me, and I'm certain that the reason it took
me so long was because I had been told it was suppose to happen another
way. Using Bob books and the "How to Read..." book were not the way for
your daughter, as she showed you. And now, perhaps that's the only way she
thinks of wrt reading. Someday, she will want to read something, and
someday it will click for her and she will figure out how it works for her.
If you can trust her, and be patient, it will be the best gift you can give
her.
--bc--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** She resists anything and everything to do with "math" or numbers even
in ordinary life. we never present things as "math". she simply has no
interest.**
OK, but stuff was presented to her as "math" during the year that you
homeschooled, before switching to unschooling?
I tend to be a "worrier", too. But, I think some kids pick up on our
worrying and aren't going to show interest in academic stuff until we
really let it go. (Gut feeling, I probably can't offer supporting
evidence.)
If you feel like reading another book on the topic of learning
difficulties, I think there is some good content in Mel Levine's book,
_The Myth of Laziness_. He does a good job profiling different children
and really showing appreciation for their positive qualities. I think
this a pleasant antidote to the way schools sometimes just focus on
"deficiencies" as if everything else about a kid was invisible or
irrelevant.
Betsy
in ordinary life. we never present things as "math". she simply has no
interest.**
OK, but stuff was presented to her as "math" during the year that you
homeschooled, before switching to unschooling?
I tend to be a "worrier", too. But, I think some kids pick up on our
worrying and aren't going to show interest in academic stuff until we
really let it go. (Gut feeling, I probably can't offer supporting
evidence.)
If you feel like reading another book on the topic of learning
difficulties, I think there is some good content in Mel Levine's book,
_The Myth of Laziness_. He does a good job profiling different children
and really showing appreciation for their positive qualities. I think
this a pleasant antidote to the way schools sometimes just focus on
"deficiencies" as if everything else about a kid was invisible or
irrelevant.
Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
** Now Jake types at the computer himself a LOT. He's the fastest one-
finger typist I know! **
I've seen commercials for a kind of cell phone with letter keys on the
left and right sides of the center for keying in text messages. It
would be a different type of typing than an old style keyboard. It
looks kind of cool, but I don't know the technical name. Has anyone
used one?
Betsy
finger typist I know! **
I've seen commercials for a kind of cell phone with letter keys on the
left and right sides of the center for keying in text messages. It
would be a different type of typing than an old style keyboard. It
looks kind of cool, but I don't know the technical name. Has anyone
used one?
Betsy
Deb Lewis
***Individuals with dyslexia usually have some of the following
characteristics: ***
I was trying to formulate a response to the list of characteristics that
would be diplomatic but that's nearly impossible for me so I'm just going
to say what I think. I think it's a load of poopy.
I think there *are* probably some people in the world who's brains are
organized in a way that makes written language more difficult for them.
But I would consider other possibilities before I'd consider Dyslexia.
***Dyslexia is always a possibility though because extreme fatigue
while working with written words is definitely a symptom. ***
Well then I have it because it was all I could do to get through that!
I have extreme fatigue while reading *anything* religious, anything from
my brother David and anything from my mother in law. But I can fly
through a Martha Grimes novel or a Dean Koontz and I can read poetry for
hours.
I have a really strong feeling a kid who isn't yet ready to read would
have extreme fatigue if someone was making her try to read.
The whole list of possible signs of Dyslexia are also all the signs of
someone pushed to do something before they're ready.
I think nine is very young and she has a lot of time.
***However, she says her friends call her "Dory" ( Finding Nemo ) because
she can't remember things.***
I can remember some things irritatingly well and others leave me almost
instantly. I can never find my keys, shoes, measuring spoons or car in
any parking lot. I sometimes get all the way to the post office before
I realize I didn't bring the mail with me. I read when I was four
years old and I can still recite "The Raven" which I memorized in third
grade. I know how many strips of fabric are in every rug I ever made.
Not everyone fits neatly in the zone most of society would like us to
believe is "normal." My feeling is "normal" is much bigger than most
people ever consider and if we could relax everyone would be better off.
If her friends are hurting her feelings with their comments maybe she
can think about the things she does well and maybe you could tell them to
zip it.
Deb L
characteristics: ***
I was trying to formulate a response to the list of characteristics that
would be diplomatic but that's nearly impossible for me so I'm just going
to say what I think. I think it's a load of poopy.
I think there *are* probably some people in the world who's brains are
organized in a way that makes written language more difficult for them.
But I would consider other possibilities before I'd consider Dyslexia.
***Dyslexia is always a possibility though because extreme fatigue
while working with written words is definitely a symptom. ***
Well then I have it because it was all I could do to get through that!
I have extreme fatigue while reading *anything* religious, anything from
my brother David and anything from my mother in law. But I can fly
through a Martha Grimes novel or a Dean Koontz and I can read poetry for
hours.
I have a really strong feeling a kid who isn't yet ready to read would
have extreme fatigue if someone was making her try to read.
The whole list of possible signs of Dyslexia are also all the signs of
someone pushed to do something before they're ready.
I think nine is very young and she has a lot of time.
***However, she says her friends call her "Dory" ( Finding Nemo ) because
she can't remember things.***
I can remember some things irritatingly well and others leave me almost
instantly. I can never find my keys, shoes, measuring spoons or car in
any parking lot. I sometimes get all the way to the post office before
I realize I didn't bring the mail with me. I read when I was four
years old and I can still recite "The Raven" which I memorized in third
grade. I know how many strips of fabric are in every rug I ever made.
Not everyone fits neatly in the zone most of society would like us to
believe is "normal." My feeling is "normal" is much bigger than most
people ever consider and if we could relax everyone would be better off.
If her friends are hurting her feelings with their comments maybe she
can think about the things she does well and maybe you could tell them to
zip it.
Deb L
AnneO
Oh, My! I didn't even read the list below the message!
I agree with Deb ~ it's a load of poopy! :-)
My information that I shared about Jake was based on the fact that he
always reversed letters and numbers ~ and when he read out loud, he
would skip a lot of words. I talked to other people about it when he
was about 7 or 8 (friends and acquaintances ~ and one who uses the
*dyslexic* label for her son a little too often and as an excuse for
his rude behavior at times), and they said it usually *fixes itself*
at about age 9 or 10...but it didn't and it still hasn't and I'm
still not worried about it!
~ Anne
*** Does My Child Have Dyslexia?
I agree with Deb ~ it's a load of poopy! :-)
My information that I shared about Jake was based on the fact that he
always reversed letters and numbers ~ and when he read out loud, he
would skip a lot of words. I talked to other people about it when he
was about 7 or 8 (friends and acquaintances ~ and one who uses the
*dyslexic* label for her son a little too often and as an excuse for
his rude behavior at times), and they said it usually *fixes itself*
at about age 9 or 10...but it didn't and it still hasn't and I'm
still not worried about it!
~ Anne
*** Does My Child Have Dyslexia?
> Individuals with dyslexia usually have some of the following
> characteristics:
>
> Difficulty with oral language Late in learning to talk
> Difficulty pronouncing words
> Difficulty acquiring vocabulary or using age-appropriate grammar
> Difficulty following directions
> Confusion with before/after, right/left, and so on
> Difficulty learning the alphabet, nursery rhymes, or songs
> Difficulty understanding concepts and relationships
> Difficulty with reading Difficulty learning to read
> Difficulty identifying or generating rhyming words or counting
> syllables in words (Phonological Awareness)
> Difficulty with hearing and manipulating sounds in words (Phonemic
> Awareness)
> Difficulty distinguishing different sounds in words (Auditory
> Discrimination)
> Difficulty in learning the sounds of letters
> Difficulty remembering names and/or the order of letters when
> reading
> Reverses letters or the order of letters when reading
> Misreads or omits common little words
> "Stumbles" through longer words
> Poor reading comprehension during oral or silent reading
> Slow, laborious oral reading
> Difficulty with written language
> Trouble putting ideas on paper
> Many spelling mistakes
> May do well on weekly spelling tests, but there are many spelling
> mistakes in daily work
> Difficulty in proofreading ***
Sara
That was a long list! Very very poopy.
My stepfather is very dyslexic and has had some great management
jobs, a few of which have really stressed him out. When he didn't
have a secretary my mother would help him with the written work. Now
that they use email he can get alot done without calling her. His
desk is an absolute mess and he gets mad at himself for that but he
says..."it ain't gonna change". He has memorized many small words
backwards and has to sound out long words. He's used to us helping
with those words and we read out loud to him also. He's fifty. Once
he understood that we admired his tenacity he was no longer
embarrassed when we filled words in for him. So long ago we accepted
his greatness and his ability to adapt, in return we got a really
smart guy. His parents, of course, thought he was stupid. I remember
disliking them strongly...they were the dim bulbs. Thank Goodness we
have come a long way.
My stepfather is very dyslexic and has had some great management
jobs, a few of which have really stressed him out. When he didn't
have a secretary my mother would help him with the written work. Now
that they use email he can get alot done without calling her. His
desk is an absolute mess and he gets mad at himself for that but he
says..."it ain't gonna change". He has memorized many small words
backwards and has to sound out long words. He's used to us helping
with those words and we read out loud to him also. He's fifty. Once
he understood that we admired his tenacity he was no longer
embarrassed when we filled words in for him. So long ago we accepted
his greatness and his ability to adapt, in return we got a really
smart guy. His parents, of course, thought he was stupid. I remember
disliking them strongly...they were the dim bulbs. Thank Goodness we
have come a long way.
velvet jiang
>>>>My feeling is "normal" is much bigger than mostpeople ever consider and if we could relax everyone would be better off.<<<<
first definition in the oxford dictionary is: conforming to a standard,
regular, usual, typical.
i decided a long time ago that i didn't want to be normal, i want to be me.
i don't think many on this list are striving to be normal. we have a great
time knowing we aren't normal and it is such a positive thing to our dd that
she doesn't (usually) feel bad when she doesn't fit someone elses mold. i
have however seen her decline to play with others who consistantly insult
her because she has no need for the negative energy.
velvet
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/04 4:20:31 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< I think there *are* probably some people in the world who's brains are
organized in a way that makes written language more difficult for them.
But I would consider other possibilities before I'd consider Dyslexia. >>
There are lots whose brains are this way or that. And every single one of
them learns to read only after his brain is ready and his interest is there, and
only then if someone hasn't made reading torturous and something they've
decided to avoid.
If a large set of people read late, then there it is. They will eventually
read. There are many stories of late reading (and some of the advantages
which I learned with Holly) here:
http://sandradodd.com/reading
Nobody can "cure" dyslexia.
Only school-involvement makes dyslexia a huge big problem.
Unschoolers don't need to do anything about it except learn to be patient and
trusting and not to screw the poor kid up with labels and pressures.
Sandra
<< I think there *are* probably some people in the world who's brains are
organized in a way that makes written language more difficult for them.
But I would consider other possibilities before I'd consider Dyslexia. >>
There are lots whose brains are this way or that. And every single one of
them learns to read only after his brain is ready and his interest is there, and
only then if someone hasn't made reading torturous and something they've
decided to avoid.
If a large set of people read late, then there it is. They will eventually
read. There are many stories of late reading (and some of the advantages
which I learned with Holly) here:
http://sandradodd.com/reading
Nobody can "cure" dyslexia.
Only school-involvement makes dyslexia a huge big problem.
Unschoolers don't need to do anything about it except learn to be patient and
trusting and not to screw the poor kid up with labels and pressures.
Sandra
Penn Acres
I very much appreciate the time and thought people have taken to reply on this subject.
I am on my way out of town until Sat night and wanted to just acknowlege this.
Of course your responses are not just for " me and my post".
When I address a subject I tend to "overpost" and then work from an overview to the specific.Sorry , it drives my husband nuts as well.
To be a bit more specific. I was wondering if there are really helpful approaches or " exercises' that might help her process the spoken, written word (if she ever indicates that this is something she might want) and if there is an optimum time to do that.Or are there people on this list who have tried them for their dyslexic children.
This is not to say I want to label, change, treat, or school her. I want to understand her different responses to the spoken, written word and the process of writing and know when and if I can help her and in what specific ways or if indeed there are any specific ways.
I know that much of what is commonly understood as being "necessary skills" is a requirement for public school.
Oh, yes as for the "math" thing? what is "different" with her is that if someone talks about "how many , or how much or how long-while others might count or subtract or wonder or figure-she just watches or lets them do it. she has only recently really understood that the act of counting is actually adding one more to a number.Verbally. or when counting. Handling objects she does, easily. Counting backwards-ie subtracting one from the number she actually "doesnt get it".verbally, out loud, handling objects she does. I dont think it is that unusual and it is not something we ever comment on but I just observe it as she plays. We dont do anything called math or use the word in everyday life. We did try Math-U-See-just the first couple of exercises in a fun way when they were 5-6 and it was totally meaningless and confusing to her.
I dont plan on changing our unschooling-it works great for us in all ways.
Oh, yes Anneo she is "sensativity issues" but not so much now as her twin sister. the clothing, food, texture things are becoming easier for her as she gets older.
I did join Shinewith unschooling as soon as it started , it was great at first but I unsubbed when it got a bit off track while you were gone. I plan on rejoining when I get back to having more time .
It really generated a lot of interesting posts.
Wish I could directly reply to each but I,m off to Vernon.
Grace
in the mountains of bc
where the girls are watching the old Swiss family Robinson video again and eating banana splits.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am on my way out of town until Sat night and wanted to just acknowlege this.
Of course your responses are not just for " me and my post".
When I address a subject I tend to "overpost" and then work from an overview to the specific.Sorry , it drives my husband nuts as well.
To be a bit more specific. I was wondering if there are really helpful approaches or " exercises' that might help her process the spoken, written word (if she ever indicates that this is something she might want) and if there is an optimum time to do that.Or are there people on this list who have tried them for their dyslexic children.
This is not to say I want to label, change, treat, or school her. I want to understand her different responses to the spoken, written word and the process of writing and know when and if I can help her and in what specific ways or if indeed there are any specific ways.
I know that much of what is commonly understood as being "necessary skills" is a requirement for public school.
Oh, yes as for the "math" thing? what is "different" with her is that if someone talks about "how many , or how much or how long-while others might count or subtract or wonder or figure-she just watches or lets them do it. she has only recently really understood that the act of counting is actually adding one more to a number.Verbally. or when counting. Handling objects she does, easily. Counting backwards-ie subtracting one from the number she actually "doesnt get it".verbally, out loud, handling objects she does. I dont think it is that unusual and it is not something we ever comment on but I just observe it as she plays. We dont do anything called math or use the word in everyday life. We did try Math-U-See-just the first couple of exercises in a fun way when they were 5-6 and it was totally meaningless and confusing to her.
I dont plan on changing our unschooling-it works great for us in all ways.
Oh, yes Anneo she is "sensativity issues" but not so much now as her twin sister. the clothing, food, texture things are becoming easier for her as she gets older.
I did join Shinewith unschooling as soon as it started , it was great at first but I unsubbed when it got a bit off track while you were gone. I plan on rejoining when I get back to having more time .
It really generated a lot of interesting posts.
Wish I could directly reply to each but I,m off to Vernon.
Grace
in the mountains of bc
where the girls are watching the old Swiss family Robinson video again and eating banana splits.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AnneO
***"Penn Acres" wrote:
I was wondering if there are really helpful approaches or "
exercises' that might help her process the spoken, written word (if
she ever indicates that this is something she might want) and if
there is an optimum time to do that.Or are there people on this list
who have tried them for their dyslexic children.
word and the process of writing and know when and if I can help her
and in what specific ways or if indeed there are any specific
ways.***
You wrote in your previous message:
***My approach has been to let her develop at
her own speed, facilitate her learning by making things available to
her to
support the ways she seems to absorb information.
Indeed , I don,t see how else she could really "learn" if it wasnt
available
in the way she does "learn".
But still, the list of identifying characteristics fits her so well
that I need
to see if I am missing something in all of this.
Is there acceptable "help" out there that is necessary for her to
work this
through or can it be done this way -"in her own way".***
From these words, it seems evident that it's not your daughter who is
finding challenges in her life...it's you, looking at a list of
characteristics, seeing your daughter in them, and thinking you
should do something to *help* her.
But she isn't asking for help...is she?
I would forget that list of dyslexic traits that came up on the other
list. Look at the heart of your daughter. Look at her passions.
She's living an unschooling life...doing what she loves. Is she
content and able to get from what world what she needs/desires in
life?
The only thing I could see in your above words that may need a shift
is the fact that you seem to be focusing on your child's *learning*
instead of her *life.* Your *approach*, as stated above ("let her
develop at her own speed, facilitate her learning by making things
available to her to support the ways she seems to absorb
information") just seems to be lacking the very foundation of
unschooling, to me: Joy. The Joy that comes from the child being
free to follow her heart, her passions...
I think a shift in your focus AWAY from all things *learning* to all
things *joyful* for your child would help you to see that All is
Well...that your child Shines just as she is ~ no list of traits
necessary!
***what is "different" with her is that if someone talks about "how
many , or how much or how long-while others might count or subtract
or wonder or figure-she just watches or lets them do it.***
Why isn't that OK? She's doing what she needs to do, processing it
in her mind the way she needs to process it.
All of the things that she exhibits are her own way of processing
information. If we didn't have lists of traits and labels and
standards that schools expect from our children, then we would more
clearly be able to see that each child is different, each mind is
precious and unique, and there are no standard time-frames for
specific *learning*.
So along with shifting the focus of your days from *learning* to
*life*, it's also important to live that life as if school doesn't
exist. Allow your child to be Free, and in the course of her Free
life she encounters challenges, you will be able to overcome those
challenges at that time together.
But don't *make* challenges in her life when, from her view of the
world, there aren't any.
***Oh, yes Anneo she is "sensativity issues" but not so much now as
her twin sister. the clothing, food, texture things are becoming
easier for her as she gets older.
I did join Shinewith unschooling as soon as it started , it was
great at first but I unsubbed when it got a bit off track while
you were gone. I plan on rejoining when I get back to having more
time .***
I'm sorry the *tone* of the list early on while it was establishing
itself turned you off ~ but I completely understand! Things are once
again Joyful on the list!
Be Well ~
Anne
I was wondering if there are really helpful approaches or "
exercises' that might help her process the spoken, written word (if
she ever indicates that this is something she might want) and if
there is an optimum time to do that.Or are there people on this list
who have tried them for their dyslexic children.
> This is not to say I want to label, change, treat, or school her.I want to understand her different responses to the spoken, written
word and the process of writing and know when and if I can help her
and in what specific ways or if indeed there are any specific
ways.***
You wrote in your previous message:
***My approach has been to let her develop at
her own speed, facilitate her learning by making things available to
her to
support the ways she seems to absorb information.
Indeed , I don,t see how else she could really "learn" if it wasnt
available
in the way she does "learn".
But still, the list of identifying characteristics fits her so well
that I need
to see if I am missing something in all of this.
Is there acceptable "help" out there that is necessary for her to
work this
through or can it be done this way -"in her own way".***
From these words, it seems evident that it's not your daughter who is
finding challenges in her life...it's you, looking at a list of
characteristics, seeing your daughter in them, and thinking you
should do something to *help* her.
But she isn't asking for help...is she?
I would forget that list of dyslexic traits that came up on the other
list. Look at the heart of your daughter. Look at her passions.
She's living an unschooling life...doing what she loves. Is she
content and able to get from what world what she needs/desires in
life?
The only thing I could see in your above words that may need a shift
is the fact that you seem to be focusing on your child's *learning*
instead of her *life.* Your *approach*, as stated above ("let her
develop at her own speed, facilitate her learning by making things
available to her to support the ways she seems to absorb
information") just seems to be lacking the very foundation of
unschooling, to me: Joy. The Joy that comes from the child being
free to follow her heart, her passions...
I think a shift in your focus AWAY from all things *learning* to all
things *joyful* for your child would help you to see that All is
Well...that your child Shines just as she is ~ no list of traits
necessary!
***what is "different" with her is that if someone talks about "how
many , or how much or how long-while others might count or subtract
or wonder or figure-she just watches or lets them do it.***
Why isn't that OK? She's doing what she needs to do, processing it
in her mind the way she needs to process it.
All of the things that she exhibits are her own way of processing
information. If we didn't have lists of traits and labels and
standards that schools expect from our children, then we would more
clearly be able to see that each child is different, each mind is
precious and unique, and there are no standard time-frames for
specific *learning*.
So along with shifting the focus of your days from *learning* to
*life*, it's also important to live that life as if school doesn't
exist. Allow your child to be Free, and in the course of her Free
life she encounters challenges, you will be able to overcome those
challenges at that time together.
But don't *make* challenges in her life when, from her view of the
world, there aren't any.
***Oh, yes Anneo she is "sensativity issues" but not so much now as
her twin sister. the clothing, food, texture things are becoming
easier for her as she gets older.
I did join Shinewith unschooling as soon as it started , it was
great at first but I unsubbed when it got a bit off track while
you were gone. I plan on rejoining when I get back to having more
time .***
I'm sorry the *tone* of the list early on while it was establishing
itself turned you off ~ but I completely understand! Things are once
again Joyful on the list!
Be Well ~
Anne
Barbara Chase
>To be a bit more specific. I was wondering if there are really helpfulYes, I expect there would be some helpful approaches. But, she hasn't yet
>approaches or " exercises' that might help her process the spoken,
>written word (if she ever indicates that this is something she might
>want)
indicated that this is something she wants. Wait until she asks, or wait
until the moment arrises when you are working on a project together.
Right now you are projecting your concerns into the future, which makes it
really hard to live in the moment and to appreciate the joy. I think the
best exercise for you would be to watch her live life, notice how she
tackles things as you have fun together, ask her questions about her
interests so you can really get to know her as she is right now. Then, if
she does ask you for help to do something with reading, say, you will be
ever more present and have so many ideas about what might work for her then.
> and if there is an optimum time to do that.That would be when she is ready and has asked for help.
>I want to understand her different responses to the spoken, written wordI don't think there is one specific way that will help you understand her,
>and the process of writing and know when and if I can help her and in
>what specific ways or if indeed there are any specific ways.
other than to watch her, have conversations with her, participate with her,
and encourage her to be who she is in every moment.
I expect we can all relate to your intent, however. It may seem a bit
ordinary as an example, but it seems to me to be the same thing. I want to
get my daughter a new computer game... but it's really hard to know what
she will like. I don't really know how she is relating to the games that
she currently plays. So, I'm asking her questions, I'm playing the games
with her, I'm watching what she does, and I'm starting to learn. So far I
have learned that she is very keen on watching and playing with the
expressions of the characters - she will do something odd with the game to
make them do silly things. It still doesn't help me know what new game to
get, but it's a start.
--bc--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/04 10:48:37 PM, pennacres@... writes:
<< This is not to say I want to label, change, treat, or school her. I want
to understand her different responses to the spoken, written word and the
process of writing and know when and if I can help her and in what specific
ways or if indeed there are any specific ways. >>
Marty would have been labelled dyslexic had he been in school. He's one of
those good-at-math, athletic, spatial-reasoning, left-handed guys. So is my
husband. So was my father.
Marty had to figure out on his own way (and I never needed to know what that
way was) how to tell one end of a word from the other, but he did.
I think telling someone how they "need" to read is more damaging than just
surrounding them with words and stories and pictures and trusting that they will
ask questions when they have them.
Sandra
<< This is not to say I want to label, change, treat, or school her. I want
to understand her different responses to the spoken, written word and the
process of writing and know when and if I can help her and in what specific
ways or if indeed there are any specific ways. >>
Marty would have been labelled dyslexic had he been in school. He's one of
those good-at-math, athletic, spatial-reasoning, left-handed guys. So is my
husband. So was my father.
Marty had to figure out on his own way (and I never needed to know what that
way was) how to tell one end of a word from the other, but he did.
I think telling someone how they "need" to read is more damaging than just
surrounding them with words and stories and pictures and trusting that they will
ask questions when they have them.
Sandra
Tracey Inman
I have been watching this thread with much interest. I too have a daughter
who exhibits symptoms of being dyslexic. When she was in 1st grade in
public school she was put through a battery of tests. I requested it
because I was sure she was dyslexic after doing much research. They would
only tell me she had a learning disability and wanted to put her in
resource! I threw a fit and wouldn't allow the resource thing. She
struggled so with reading and would fail the reading tests. But if I read
the test to her she would ace it without hearing the multiple-choice
options. (She could just tell you the answer.) I pulled her out of public
school when she was 7. Her memory of things she watches on TV. or sees at
the museums,etc. is incredible. But let me tell her that her towel is the
one on the left she will put her hands on her head and say "Oh! I am getting
confused!" She doesn't have much concept of time frames. Asking her to do
more than one thing at a time just isn't going to happen. I have learned to
ask one thing at a time and to break other things in life down to bite size
pieces. Our local library has a ton of books on tape. She loves Juni B.
Jones and she enjoys putting the CD in and following along in the book. But
some of the books seem to go too fast for her to keep up so we use those for
when we are in the car.
I must admit I have moments of wanting to worry. But then I remind myself
that she will find ways of putting things together in her own way (and
time). But I do have one question for the group...... Will the lack of
concentration hinder her ability to learn all she can? During all the
battery of tests I forgot to mention she WAS diagnosed as a severe ADD
child. We tried the medication but to be honest I just couldn't feel good
about giving her a controlled narcotic. My dh and I made the decision to
just let her go at her on pace and ignore the "well-meaning" comments from
grand-parents.
~Tracey I.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Albert Einstein
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/17/2004
who exhibits symptoms of being dyslexic. When she was in 1st grade in
public school she was put through a battery of tests. I requested it
because I was sure she was dyslexic after doing much research. They would
only tell me she had a learning disability and wanted to put her in
resource! I threw a fit and wouldn't allow the resource thing. She
struggled so with reading and would fail the reading tests. But if I read
the test to her she would ace it without hearing the multiple-choice
options. (She could just tell you the answer.) I pulled her out of public
school when she was 7. Her memory of things she watches on TV. or sees at
the museums,etc. is incredible. But let me tell her that her towel is the
one on the left she will put her hands on her head and say "Oh! I am getting
confused!" She doesn't have much concept of time frames. Asking her to do
more than one thing at a time just isn't going to happen. I have learned to
ask one thing at a time and to break other things in life down to bite size
pieces. Our local library has a ton of books on tape. She loves Juni B.
Jones and she enjoys putting the CD in and following along in the book. But
some of the books seem to go too fast for her to keep up so we use those for
when we are in the car.
I must admit I have moments of wanting to worry. But then I remind myself
that she will find ways of putting things together in her own way (and
time). But I do have one question for the group...... Will the lack of
concentration hinder her ability to learn all she can? During all the
battery of tests I forgot to mention she WAS diagnosed as a severe ADD
child. We tried the medication but to be honest I just couldn't feel good
about giving her a controlled narcotic. My dh and I made the decision to
just let her go at her on pace and ignore the "well-meaning" comments from
grand-parents.
~Tracey I.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
minds." Albert Einstein
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 9/17/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/2004 11:15:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Marty had to figure out on his own way (and I never needed to know what that
way was) how to tell one end of a word from the other, but he did.
I think telling someone how they "need" to read is more damaging than just
surrounding them with words and stories and pictures and trusting that they
will
ask questions when they have them.<<<
I just finished reading Martha Beck's _Expecting Adam_. A very sweet and
funny book about nine months of preparing for the birth of a Down syndrome baby.
She briefly talks about what she's learned from him in the years since his
birth (most of it is what she learned while pregnant with him). Here's an
exerpt:
...one day John [husband] was holding up a plastic letter and making its
sound, which happend to be "EEEEEE," when Adam suddenly perked up and said,
"Wizbef!" This is the way he pronounces his sister Elizabeth's name. Naturally,
John and I took this as ample cause to stay home from work and celebrate.
During that day, we discovered that Adam's learning capacity went way beyond
anything we expected----as long as everything he learned related directly to
someone he cared about. He had absolutely no interest in, for example, "E is for
egg." But E for Elizabeth----now THAT was crucial information.
In the end we all learned the alphabet this way. The symbols we had been
trying to link to abstract sounds ended up as a parade of personalities: Adam
first, of course, then Billy, Caleb, Diane. Elizabeth, Francine, Grandpa,.... As
we figured out how he learned, the landscape of our son's mind began to
reveal itself to us. Instead of rationally constructed structure of empirical
observations, logical conclusions, and arbitrary symbols, Adam's mental world
seems more like a huge family reunion. It's a gathering of people, all linked
by Adam's affection into a complex universe of relationships and
characteristics. In this universe, Adam learns as fast as anyone I know.
Long before he could read or write even the most basic words (or so I
thought), Adam came home to tell me, in his garbled tongue, about the new boy who
had just moved into his class, and who had become Adam's friend. When I
couldn't understand his pronunciation of the boy's name, Adam grabbed a pencil in
his stubby, grubby little-boy fingers, and wrote, "Miguel Fernando de la Hoya"
on a piece of paper---a piece of paper, needless to say, which I intend to
frame. <<<<
If we will allow them to make the connections, they WILL----just maybe not
in the same way we do.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Marty had to figure out on his own way (and I never needed to know what that
way was) how to tell one end of a word from the other, but he did.
I think telling someone how they "need" to read is more damaging than just
surrounding them with words and stories and pictures and trusting that they
will
ask questions when they have them.<<<
I just finished reading Martha Beck's _Expecting Adam_. A very sweet and
funny book about nine months of preparing for the birth of a Down syndrome baby.
She briefly talks about what she's learned from him in the years since his
birth (most of it is what she learned while pregnant with him). Here's an
exerpt:
>>>>>By the time he was six, I was ready to give up [on his learning how torecognize letters on his own].
...one day John [husband] was holding up a plastic letter and making its
sound, which happend to be "EEEEEE," when Adam suddenly perked up and said,
"Wizbef!" This is the way he pronounces his sister Elizabeth's name. Naturally,
John and I took this as ample cause to stay home from work and celebrate.
During that day, we discovered that Adam's learning capacity went way beyond
anything we expected----as long as everything he learned related directly to
someone he cared about. He had absolutely no interest in, for example, "E is for
egg." But E for Elizabeth----now THAT was crucial information.
In the end we all learned the alphabet this way. The symbols we had been
trying to link to abstract sounds ended up as a parade of personalities: Adam
first, of course, then Billy, Caleb, Diane. Elizabeth, Francine, Grandpa,.... As
we figured out how he learned, the landscape of our son's mind began to
reveal itself to us. Instead of rationally constructed structure of empirical
observations, logical conclusions, and arbitrary symbols, Adam's mental world
seems more like a huge family reunion. It's a gathering of people, all linked
by Adam's affection into a complex universe of relationships and
characteristics. In this universe, Adam learns as fast as anyone I know.
Long before he could read or write even the most basic words (or so I
thought), Adam came home to tell me, in his garbled tongue, about the new boy who
had just moved into his class, and who had become Adam's friend. When I
couldn't understand his pronunciation of the boy's name, Adam grabbed a pencil in
his stubby, grubby little-boy fingers, and wrote, "Miguel Fernando de la Hoya"
on a piece of paper---a piece of paper, needless to say, which I intend to
frame. <<<<
If we will allow them to make the connections, they WILL----just maybe not
in the same way we do.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AnneO
***Will the lack of concentration hinder her ability to learn all she
can?***
and Kelly's: ***He had absolutely no interest in, for example, "E is
for egg." But E for Elizabeth----now THAT was crucial information.***
Real learning is making connections that are necessary/desired in our
children's real lives, their real work, or their enjoyment of their
lives.
There is no *learning disability* when the passion and the desire is
there...when children learn from the real world, and make connections
from the world to their minds, hearts and their lives.
~ Anne
can?***
and Kelly's: ***He had absolutely no interest in, for example, "E is
for egg." But E for Elizabeth----now THAT was crucial information.***
Real learning is making connections that are necessary/desired in our
children's real lives, their real work, or their enjoyment of their
lives.
There is no *learning disability* when the passion and the desire is
there...when children learn from the real world, and make connections
from the world to their minds, hearts and their lives.
~ Anne
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/2004 3:40:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ohman@... writes:
Real learning is making connections that are necessary/desired in our
children's real lives, their real work, or their enjoyment of their
lives.
There is no *learning disability* when the passion and the desire is
there...when children learn from the real world, and make connections
from the world to their minds, hearts and their lives. <<<
Anne, you would love this book! Look it up next time you're at the library!
_Expecting Adam_ by Martha Beck
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ohman@... writes:
Real learning is making connections that are necessary/desired in our
children's real lives, their real work, or their enjoyment of their
lives.
There is no *learning disability* when the passion and the desire is
there...when children learn from the real world, and make connections
from the world to their minds, hearts and their lives. <<<
Anne, you would love this book! Look it up next time you're at the library!
_Expecting Adam_ by Martha Beck
~Kelly
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