[email protected]

http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles.html

That's a site full of criticism of Waldorf education.

But compared to natural learning using the whole real world, Waldorf
philosophy is against electronic media, against plastic toys, against wooden toys if
they're too realistic or have facial expressions, children aren't to color or
paint with a full range of colors, just one at a time (and in the right order).
They should play with cloths, but there are right ways, and there are right
and wrong kinds of cloths, and colors of cloths. Music MUST be learned, but
only certain kinds of music, and in the right order.

As with all schools, the school itself becomes the most important organism,
not the children. And there's a culture to it, with a lot of pressure. One of
the testimonials from a former parent had these two simple paragraphs which
are telling:

"Your life gets intertwined with the school and it can make it very hard to
leave. I do miss the festivals and the comradery but was able to look at what
was happening to my child.

"I believe parents enjoy their life at the school so much that they stop
listening to their child. "

The schools not only control the children and what they can play with and do,
they intend to control the families as well.

Here's some pro-Waldorf parental testimony:

"Our daughter is currently in
four攀挀琀 琀攀愀挀栀攀爀 昀漀爀 栀攀爀Ⰰ 愀 眀漀洀愀渀 眀栀漀 挀漀洀戀椀渀攀猀 琀栀漀甀最栀琀昀甀氀 挀爀攀愀琀椀瘀攀 琀攀愀挀栀椀渀最 眀椀琀栀 最爀攀愀琀 
攀渀樀漀礀洀攀渀琀 椀渀 挀愀爀爀礀椀渀最 琀栀爀漀甀最栀 瘀愀爀椀漀甀猀 愀挀琀椀瘀椀琀椀攀猀⸀ 䤀渀
 猀漀洀攀 眀愀礀猀Ⰰ 猀栀攀 欀渀漀眀猀 洀礀 搀愀甀最栀琀攀爀 戀攀琀琀攀爀 琀栀愀渀 䤀 搀漀Ⰰ 
愀渀搀 猀栀攀 椀猀 愀挀甀琀攀氀礀 愀眀愀爀攀 漀昀 眀栀攀爀攀 猀栀攀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 漀琀栀攀爀 
挀栀椀氀搀爀攀渀 愀爀攀 椀渀 搀椀昀昀攀爀攀渀琀 愀爀攀愀猀 漀昀 搀攀瘀攀氀漀瀀洀攀渀琀⸀ 吀栀攀 
最攀渀甀椀渀攀 氀漀瘀攀 戀攀琀眀攀攀渀 栀攀爀猀攀氀昀 愀渀搀 琀栀攀 挀栀椀氀搀爀攀渀 椀猀 眀漀渀
搀攀爀昀甀氀⸀ 吀椀洀攀猀 眀栀攀爀攀 䤀 栀愀瘀攀 戀攀攀渀 漀瘀攀爀ⴀ猀琀爀攀猀猀攀搀 愀琀 眀漀爀
欀Ⰰ 愀渀搀 氀愀琀攀爀 眀栀攀渀 䤀 栀愀搀 挀愀渀挀攀牫-related surgery, I was assured
in the stability and care that she received from her teacher.

"I am fascinated by Steiner’s approach to education. It seems to unfold in a
magical, beautiful and natural way that I couldn’t have imagined possible. I
appreciate the way all subjects are taught in an interconnected fashion. As
delivered by the sensitive teacher, the curriculum meets the child right where
that child is. I appreciate the marvelous specialty classes: two languages,
strings, handwork, and Eurythmy. They bring depth and breadth to the child’s’s
education. My husband and I wish that we could return as grade school students!"

I think it's better than many other kinds of schooling, but it's still very
prescribed and narrow.
And the good parts described above can all happen with unschooling. But the
narrowness of Waldorf-World is specific to their philosophies, and aren't
"natural" outside of their whole gnome and magic thing.

Here are some testimonials NOT about Waldorf, about this list and unschoolin
g.com:

http://sandradodd.com/list



Sandra

[email protected]

I was looking for some policies online that tell parents how to arrange their
homes and schedules to suit the school, and haven't found an example yet, but
did find this:



AUSTIN WALDORF SCHOOL SUMMER PROGRAMS


CAMP ROADRUNNER POLICIES AND RULES


The Austin Waldorf School strives to be a healthy, loving environment for
every child.  To assist in making this camp successful the following rules will
be applied:


CLOTHING

Campers should attend the camp in shorts, t-shirts and sneakers to be
prepared for most camp activities. Swim gear and specific clothes may be needed on
specific days and will be presented in Camp Details (to come out a few weeks
before camp).
Preferred: Solid colors (not neon), stripes, calico, gingham, repeating
prints, and plaids. Moderation is encouraged in style and length of dresses. Shoes
should either by lace up athletic shoes or sandals with back straps (during
most activities lace up athletic shoes will be required).
Acceptable: Clothes with nature scenes.
Unacceptable: Thongs, flip-flops, T-shirts with prominent advertising (not
including small manufacturer’s labels), writing, pictures of musical groups or
cartoon like characters, sports jerseys, neon colors (even if solid),
camouflage, bare midriffs, sport-cut tank tops, low-cut necklines, electro-magnetic
wirings (e.g. lights and/or sounds) or mechanical devices on any clothing,
including shoes is unacceptable.
Note: Unacceptably attired children may not be allowed to participate in all
camp activities.

FOOD

Lunch is to be brought in a small cooler.   Please do not send lunch coolers
decorated with media/commercial characters.  Please send wholesome, nutritious
lunches. Junk food, candy or gum, and caffienated beverages are not to be
brought to the camp. 

MEDIA


The AWS Summer Program seeks to provide your child with a real experience of
nature, the arts and physical activity separate and apart from current media
images. Therefore, we ask that you limit your child’s media exposure during the
camp in order to create the place for this experience for your child.
Electronic communication and entertainment devices are not permitted at summer camp. 
Media is not to be discussed or promoted at the summer camp and camp
counselors will ask campers to refrain from discussing it while at the camp.



http://www.austinwaldorf.org/summercamp/GradesPOLICIESANDRULES.htm

[email protected]

Waldorf and TV, long article, one paragraph:

-=-Rudolf Steiner, the founder of Waldorf Education, never experienced
television, but he did know about the silent movies popular in the early part of the
twentieth century. Steiner recognized the medium's potential as a new art
form and realized that technologically based entertainment would develop and
spread. But he was aware of the negative effects and had serious reservations
about such entertainment. In a conversation with a stage designer of the time,
Steiner cautioned that film corrupts people's relation to time and space and
spoils their ability to have a real imagination. For these reasons, he was
concerned about adults who watch too many films. -=-

http://www.awsna.org/renmediamon.html

The Cape Cod Waldorf school has no mention of this on their website, but
there is a $55 non-refundable fee just to apply to attend the school. And so it
the family applies but then doesn't agree with the no-TV policy, they've just
lost $55. The school has just gained $55 without a warning (going by the
website) that this will be a stipulation.

And if a family has more than one child, turning 13 won't give a child access
to TV or computer either, if there are younger children to shelter per the
school's requirements.

Sandra

[email protected]

One paragraph glitched in an earlier post.

I hope it doesn't again. It's the fifth paragraph on this page, in case it
messes up again:

http://www.fortnet.org/rsws/parentview/jeanmart.html


Our daughter is currently in fourth grade at River Song Waldorf School. She
has the perfect teacher for her, a woman who combines thoughtful creative
teaching with great enjoyment in carrying through various activities. In some ways,
she knows my daughter better than I do, and she is acutely aware of where she
and the other children are in different areas of development. The genuine
love between herself and the children is wonderful. Times where I have been
over-stressed at work, and later when I had cancer-related surgery, I was assured
in the stability and care that she received from her teacher.

Elizabeth Roberts

Thanks. I'll look through those. Like I said I hadn't
seen too much of it, but what I'd seen had "seemed" to
be pretty nice and open and relaxed and caring. If
there is only one "correct" way to play with
something, or draw or paint then that is definitely
not something I'd want my kids to be a part of!

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Roberts

Funny you mention the Cape Cod school...that's the one
we had looked at and nearly enrolled Sarah in.

Elizabeth

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:

> Waldorf and TV, long article, one paragraph:
>
> -=-Rudolf Steiner, the founder of Waldorf Education,
> never experienced
> television, but he did know about the silent movies
> popular in the early part of the
> twentieth century. Steiner recognized the medium's
> potential as a new art
> form and realized that technologically based
> entertainment would develop and
> spread. But he was aware of the negative effects and
> had serious reservations
> about such entertainment. In a conversation with a
> stage designer of the time,
> Steiner cautioned that film corrupts people's
> relation to time and space and
> spoils their ability to have a real imagination. For
> these reasons, he was
> concerned about adults who watch too many films. -=-
>
> http://www.awsna.org/renmediamon.html
>
> The Cape Cod Waldorf school has no mention of this
> on their website, but
> there is a $55 non-refundable fee just to apply to
> attend the school. And so it
> the family applies but then doesn't agree with the
> no-TV policy, they've just
> lost $55. The school has just gained $55 without a
> warning (going by the
> website) that this will be a stipulation.
>
> And if a family has more than one child, turning 13
> won't give a child access
> to TV or computer either, if there are younger
> children to shelter per the
> school's requirements.
>
> Sandra
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Dana Matt

I have always loved the "crafty" areas of
Waldorf--since it's big on fiber arts, knitting with
wool, weaving, etc. These are things that my kids and
I both enjoy, so we hung out in Waldorf chatrooms and
on Waldorf sites to get fiber arts ideas. I can tell
you, like everything else, a little Waldorf can go a
long way ;) SURE, it's fun to play the recorder...but
is it fun to play only the notes that you are "old"
enough for? Sure, it's fun to paint, but is it fun to
only paint in the color you're "ready" for?
Eventually I got sick of struggling through, and we
get our fiber arts info elsewhere now ;)

Dana
in MOntana
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:

> http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles.html
>
> That's a site full of criticism of Waldorf
> education.
>
> But compared to natural learning using the whole
> real world, Waldorf
> philosophy is against electronic media, against
> plastic toys, against wooden toys if
> they're too realistic or have facial expressions,
> children aren't to color or
> paint with a full range of colors, just one at a
> time (and in the right order).
> They should play with cloths, but there are right
> ways, and there are right
> and wrong kinds of cloths, and colors of cloths.
> Music MUST be learned, but
> only certain kinds of music, and in the right order.
>
>
> As with all schools, the school itself becomes the
> most important organism,
> not the children. And there's a culture to it, with
> a lot of pressure. One of
> the testimonials from a former parent had these two
> simple paragraphs which
> are telling:
>
> "Your life gets intertwined with the school and it
> can make it very hard to
> leave. I do miss the festivals and the comradery but
> was able to look at what
> was happening to my child.
>
> "I believe parents enjoy their life at the school so
> much that they stop
> listening to their child. "
>
> The schools not only control the children and what
> they can play with and do,
> they intend to control the families as well.
>
> Here's some pro-Waldorf parental testimony:
>
> "Our daughter is currently in
>
four������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
>
������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
>
������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
>
������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
>
������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
>
������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
>
������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������
>
������������������������������������������������������������������������������������������-related
> surgery, I was assured
> in the stability and care that she received from her
> teacher.
>
> "I am fascinated by Steiner���s approach to
> education. It seems to unfold in a
> magical, beautiful and natural way that I couldn���t
> have imagined possible. I
> appreciate the way all subjects are taught in an
> interconnected fashion. As
> delivered by the sensitive teacher, the curriculum
> meets the child right where
> that child is. I appreciate the marvelous specialty
> classes: two languages,
> strings, handwork, and Eurythmy. They bring depth
> and breadth to the child���s���s
> education. My husband and I wish that we could
> return as grade school students!"
>
> I think it's better than many other kinds of
> schooling, but it's still very
> prescribed and narrow.
> And the good parts described above can all happen
> with unschooling. But the
> narrowness of Waldorf-World is specific to their
> philosophies, and aren't
> "natural" outside of their whole gnome and magic
> thing.
>
> Here are some testimonials NOT about Waldorf, about
> this list and unschoolin
> g.com:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/list
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/0xXolB/TM
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files
> area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
>
> [email protected]
>
>
>
>




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Cally Brown

>
>
>I have always loved the "crafty" areas of
>Waldorf--since it's big on fiber arts, knitting with
>wool, weaving, etc.
>
Many years ago my friend and her son went along to look at the local
waldorf preschool. She is the most amazing, talented arty / crafty
person and it really appealed. After a while, though, she noticed
something and asked about science / technology activities. She was told
that children aren't interested at this age. She said yes, her son was,
but was contradicted. If he was interested, it was because she had
influenced him that way. No, she said, it was the reverse - she kept
trying to get him interested in the arty / crafty stuff. They just
didn't believe her, basically called her a liar.

She kept him home. She filled his environment with arty / crafty stuff,
AND science / technology stuff - and at 19yo he is still immersed in
science and technology. He did screen print a t-shirt once, with a
drawing of a gecko he found in the garden.

Any philosophy which denies the individuality of children is not a
healthy one, IMO.

But yes, I, and SOME of my children have also enjoyed many of the crafty
ideas from waldorf, and thinking about some of their philosophy helped
me organise my own philosophy about learning a bit more clearly - even,
or maybe especially, the bits I disagreed with.

Cally

Holly Furgason

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I was looking for some policies online that tell parents how to
arrange their
> homes...

I don't remember seeing anything that relates to *arranging* a home
but I do know that homes in the Waldorf community, Hearthstone, were
all made of natural materials and had an almost elf-like quality.
Think Craftsman meets the Forest Children.

Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts and more!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

Laura Bourdo

I've been having a hard time not laughing a little during this discussion --
particularly on the basic question of Waldorf being controlling. I laugh
because Sandra has really been being so restrained.

But I'm also laughing because of the coincidence of a parallel discussion
about ecological concerns. Interestingly, Rudolf Steiner, the founder of
the Waldorf method in Germany during the pre-WW2 years, had some very strong
feelings about ecology and a mystical reverence for the natural world that
are expressed in his educational philosophiesand are still taught today, but
have also been linked by some to the modern skinhead movement and a new,
rising interest in Germany in what is being called 'eco-fascism.' That's an
interesting little connection for you, and a fascinating argument. (For
more, and I DARE you to read the whole thing and give it some honest
thought, see an admittedly left-wing perspective at
http://www.spunk.org/library/places/germany/sp001630/janet.html.)

At any rate, back to the basic question...Waldorf...not controlling? This
school of thought came out of the mind of a nationalistic, racist, religious
fanatic German philosopher whose works were eventually adopted by some of
the major figures in Hitler's regime, Rudolf Hess among them. By the very
nature of the Teutonic/Aryan beast that grew during the Weimar Republic and
exploded upon the world scene during the years of the Third Reich, the word
'controlling' is as integral a part of the equation as is 'anti-Semitic.'

Keyword search Anthroposophy as well as the obvious search words, and see
for yourself. It makes for interesting reading.

Of COURSE Waldorf is controlling. It came from Germany in the early part
of the 20th Century. Come ON!! <BEG>

There may be good things that can come from the movement, but I would tread
VERY carefully.

Laura B.

P.S. Oh, and Cally, I agree with you wholeheartedly, btw. That's what drew
me so powerfully to unschooling -- it's demand that we see each child as a
unique individual.

***********************

Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 07:59:16 +1200
> From: Cally Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
> Subject: Re: How is Waldorf education controlling?
>
>
> Any philosophy which denies the individuality of children is not a
> healthy one, IMO.
>
> But yes, I, and SOME of my children have also enjoyed many of the crafty
> ideas from waldorf, and thinking about some of their philosophy helped
> me organise my own philosophy about learning a bit more clearly - even,
> or maybe especially, the bits I disagreed with.
>
> Cally
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/9/2004 2:34:35 AM Central Standard Time,
LauraBourdo@... writes:

At any rate, back to the basic question...Waldorf...not controlling? This
school of thought came out of the mind of a nationalistic, racist, religious
fanatic German philosopher whose works were eventually adopted by some of
the major figures in Hitler's regime, Rudolf Hess among them. By the very
nature of the Teutonic/Aryan beast that grew during the Weimar Republic and
exploded upon the world scene during the years of the Third Reich, the word
'controlling' is as integral a part of the equation as is 'anti-Semitic


~~~

Yeah, but that's like saying my New Beetle is a Hitler car (which people
have said to me at the gas pump). The families I know who are Waldorf are so
far removed from skinhead neo-facists as to be on two different planets.

I wonder what methods Steiner used to get to his conclusions about child
development, especially in an era experiments were done on people thought to be
sub-human. Yet, I find some truth in some of the ideas, like the 9-year
change. Still...lots of the things I know about child development anyone can
observe if they know lots of children, so I'm inclined not to believe there's
some great revelation to be found in Steiner's work. The Waldorf families I
know believe in it, but they're not neo-facists.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Holly Furgason

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:

> Yeah, but that's like saying my New Beetle is a Hitler car (which
people
> have said to me at the gas pump).

In a way I agree with this. It's like people telling me they don't
believe in unschooling because they think Holt was a socialist. It
doesn't matter to me whether he was or not, I know a good thing when
I see it. Having some bad ideas doesn't negate the good ones. It's
a moot point.

However, using a machine that was built to the standards of Hitler is
not the same as sending a child to a school where his philosopies are
taught, even subtly. Would drive a beetle if there was tape of pro-
Nazi proganda playing the whole time you were in it for your children
to hear?

What you have with families using Waldorf in the home is a school
more or less built to the standards of Steiner without the
propaganda. I did it to a limited extent and I loved it. It's when
I became involved with the schools and the propaganda that I could
see that it wasn't about wool dolls and watercolor.

The families I know who are Waldorf are so
> far removed from skinhead neo-facists as to be on two different
planets.

Then they're probably far removed from the schools and anthropo-
whatever. I had a single mom friend whose son had brown eyes. She
was told the brown hid the evil that was in her son and they (a group
of Steiner followers) offered to send the boy out west to live on a
farm with people who could handle that. Rasist, cultist and
controlling- all in contempary American.

> I wonder what methods Steiner used to get to his conclusions about
child
> development, especially in an era experiments were done on people
thought to be
> sub-human.

I think info on the web sites that have been posted explain exactly
where he got his ideas.

Holly
2 COOL 4 SHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts and more!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/8/04 7:33:04 PM, angels_heart82@... writes:

<< I am trying to figure out how anyone could decide what
color a child is ready for and when he would be ready
for it. Do they have some kind of method for knowing
this. >>

Cally wrote:
-=-
Any philosophy which denies the individuality of children is not a
healthy one, IMO.-=-

They don't decide when a child is ready for a color.
It is pre-declared at what age ALL children are ready for the same color.
It's not an individual development decision.

Sandra

[email protected]

-=-I don't remember seeing anything that relates to *arranging* a home

but I do know that homes in the Waldorf community, Hearthstone, were

all made of natural materials and had an almost elf-like quality.

Think Craftsman meets the Forest Children. >>

Well that sounds really fun to me.

By "arrange" I meant what toys to have or not have, what schedules and
ceremonials to observe, what music or musical instruments... to make it a Waldorf
approved student environment, if the kid was going to school at their school and
they didn't want him tainted (which would surely rub off on the other kids).

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/9/2004 8:16:59 AM Central Standard Time,
unschooler@... writes:

However, using a machine that was built to the standards of Hitler is
not the same as sending a child to a school where his philosopies are
taught, even subtly. Would drive a beetle if there was tape of pro-
Nazi proganda playing the whole time you were in it for your children
to hear?



~~~

No. But the machine I drive today is not built on the standards of Hitler.
That was then. This is now.

I've never encountered racism in the Waldorf families I know. At least one
of them is mixed race couple. Again, I said they were isolated from Waldorf
communities, because of their location in the South. Those families you
speak of wouldn't want to be around our brown eyes, I guess, even if we are lily
white.

I'm not really defending the Waldorf philosophy. There's truth in it. I
think the Waldorf families I know take the best parts and leave the rest.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/9/04 1:34:34 AM, LauraBourdo@... writes:

<< I laugh
because Sandra has really been being so restrained. >>

I guess you didn't get to the "pulled it out of his ass" part yet.
But I did restrain myself from saying he pulled it out of his mystically
racist ass.

Sandra

Holly Furgason

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> Think Craftsman meets the Forest Children.
>
> Well that sounds really fun to me.

They were cute and woodsy. I could live in one.

> By "arrange" I meant what toys to have or not have, what schedules
and
> ceremonials to observe, what music or musical instruments...

LOL! I was thinking Austrian feng shui.

Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts and more!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

Holly Furgason

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:

> I'm not really defending the Waldorf philosophy. There's truth in
it. I
> think the Waldorf families I know take the best parts and leave
the rest.

I totally agree with you. Like I said, I still do some Waldorf
things. The difference though is that once the kids are in the
school, the things you've left out are given to them everyday whether
you like it or not because the teachers are so indoctrinated.

Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts and more!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

Kristina Kahney

Holly Furgason <unschooler@...> wrote:

What you have with families using Waldorf in the home is a school
more or less built to the standards of Steiner without the
propaganda. I did it to a limited extent and I loved it. It's when
I became involved with the schools and the propaganda that I could
see that it wasn't about wool dolls and watercolor.
**************************************************************

Holly,
This is exactly my experience too. I know Waldorf critics love to pull out all of the Hitler references and such...but like I said before there is good in Steiner's work. He lectured on so many subjects from agriculture, occult sciences, religion, education, social issues, and so on. People that I know that study Anthroposophy tend to focus on one or two areas that they gravitate towards.

To me, it's like I said before, take what you like and leave the rest.

Also, those who consider themselves Waldorf unschoolers don't tell their kids which colors to use, which order to learn letters, etc. This is just a school thing, from my experience. Those who unschool with Waldorf, the ADULTS live their lives guided by some of Steiner's principles and to a large extent just let their children be. BUT, like our earlier conversation, the kids are limited to what the parents have exposed them to (this is where I'm finding myself now).

Kristina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/9/2004 12:00:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

I guess you didn't get to the "pulled it out of his ass" part yet.
But I did restrain myself from saying he pulled it out of his mystically
racist ass.<<<<

Thank you, Cicero! <g>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vijay Berry Owens

> that's like saying my New Beetle is a Hitler car (which people 
> have said to me at the gas pump). 

Are you sure they didn't say "hippie car"?

;-)

-Vijay Berry Owens
SAHM to Charlotte, 14 months




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]