Heather Hall

> You don't like general suggestions about changing your thinking?
>
> You don't like discussion of thinking patterns and priorities?
It's not so much that I don't like generalities, more like I am going in
circles and I can't figure out how to get off the merry go round.
Generalities seem to make the merry go round go faster. I have been reading
here and nodding and absorbing and thinking, I can do that! Then one thing
goes wrong and the next thing you know I'm hiding under the basements stairs
until I can be calm enough to be in the same room with my kids and feel
safe. A lot of this is trying not to repeat patterns. So I am going to try
to figure out more specifically what it is I am looking for.

Ok, so I went and read a bunch of the links you sent. Right now I feel like
having a great big pity party all by myself. I want to run and hide. I
feel like the biggest failure in the world. Now that I have that behind me,
I need to figure out what to do instead. Since I had my second child my
parenting goals have been very simple. My very basic goal was to not hit my
kids. The others all seem like easy to me like providing organic food, only
using non toxic stuff in my house, read to them, make sure they get to call
their grandmas often enough to have a clue who they are.
That just isn't enough anymore. It seems like one of the biggest obstacles
for me is play.

Seems like so many people say to me, just get down and play with them.
Follow their lead. It sounds so easy, and often they are looking me in the
eye like, why is that so hard? To me, it's like instant panic. I want to
pull up a corner of the carpet and get under it and hide! Obviously I am
working with some serious leftovers that are effecting my parenting. I am
working really hard on it. However, I still have these awesome kids that I
love and desperately want to give a better start. What do I do in the
meantime to cope? I don't want to give up. Like I said before, the
afternoon is the hardest, so I make my plans accordingly - no changes during
those times to stress me more. Ideally we can either be home then, or
somewhere where we can stay put that is low key or contained enough that I
am not worried about chasing Crispin down every 5 seconds.

I feel like I am whining. I don't want to be whining, but I am just
drowning. I am surrounded by awesome attachment parenting mamas who make it
look easy. And they spend all day with their kids! My husband has mine a
lot of the time. I feel so hopeless about being able to keep them home. I'm
not willing to give up but I am just aching and sinking. I am treating my
kids very much like I was treated minus the hitting. It is killing me. I
just don't know how to interact with them like I think I am supposed to, or
at least want to. I was a barely seen *never* heard kid without siblings or
neighborhood kids that were 'acceptable' playmates. My kids have tons of
friends to play with but we have to drive to them - which we do regularly.
It's the play with mommy part - sigh. I just never interacted with anyone
that way. It's almost like I get scared right away at the thought. I
literally sink in my chair and pull my shirt over my head sometimes. Has
anyone else remotely felt like this? I feel so guilty like my kids are just
going to hate me for screwing them up. I wanted to be a cool mom that my
kids really like. My kids *do* like me, but the nasty little voice in my
head says it's just because they don't know any different. Eventually they
will figure out what they are missing like I did.

This doesn't have to be so hard!!! I've got books, websites, people. The
answer isn't there, it's in me. I keep asking anyway because I hope that
something will turn on a light bulb.
--
Heather, mom to
Harriet 12.15.99
Crispin 01.25.02
heatherette@...

eriksmama2001

A key thing to me that Jan Fortune Wood said at the Rethinking
Education Conference in her talk on parenting was: YOU DON'T HAVE TO
BE A PERFECT PARENT!

There is this voice in my head that says "you should..OR ELSE." many,
many times. However, I have embraced that I am "trying my best and
that is the best I can do". When I don't do something I want I don't
beat myself down mentally. I regroup and realize I can do it
differently without the FEAR that I am failing. This constant FEAR is
a result of the painful consequences in my childhood that I was
unable to escape then. These consequences are gone now, choose your
priorities. For some, the best that they can do is not to hit their
children. For others, the children can thrive on so much more when a
parent isn't trying to overcome so much themselves. Be gentle with
yourself.

How can one play when one is on the verge of failing, IN HER OWN
MIND? You can not do it all perfectly. I believe you said that you
can do it all, but not very well. That is one choice. Another is to
share the load. Take care of yourself too, while your children are
concurrently being engaged by someone else. You will come back with
so much more to offer. You all will gain more. It is not failure to
ask for help. It is sure failure to refuse to seek it when you so
desperately are drowning.

Counseling has helped me to untangle my self-talk to create new
messages for myself.

Pat


--- In [email protected], Heather Hall
<Heatherette@c...> wrote:
> > You don't like general suggestions about changing your thinking?
> >
> > You don't like discussion of thinking patterns and priorities?
> It's not so much that I don't like generalities, more like I am
going in
> circles and I can't figure out how to get off the merry go round.
> Generalities seem to make the merry go round go faster. I have
been reading
> here and nodding and absorbing and thinking, I can do that! Then
one thing
> goes wrong and the next thing you know I'm hiding under the
basements stairs
> until I can be calm enough to be in the same room with my kids and
feel
> safe. A lot of this is trying not to repeat patterns. So I am
going to try
> to figure out more specifically what it is I am looking for.
>
> Ok, so I went and read a bunch of the links you sent. Right now I
feel like
> having a great big pity party all by myself. I want to run and
hide. I
> feel like the biggest failure in the world. Now that I have that
behind me,
> I need to figure out what to do instead. Since I had my second
child my
> parenting goals have been very simple. My very basic goal was to
not hit my
> kids. The others all seem like easy to me like providing organic
food, only
> using non toxic stuff in my house, read to them, make sure they get
to call
> their grandmas often enough to have a clue who they are.
> That just isn't enough anymore. It seems like one of the biggest
obstacles
> for me is play.
>
> Seems like so many people say to me, just get down and play with
them.
> Follow their lead. It sounds so easy, and often they are looking
me in the
> eye like, why is that so hard? To me, it's like instant panic. I
want to
> pull up a corner of the carpet and get under it and hide!
Obviously I am
> working with some serious leftovers that are effecting my
parenting. I am
> working really hard on it. However, I still have these awesome
kids that I
> love and desperately want to give a better start. What do I do in
the
> meantime to cope? I don't want to give up. Like I said before, the
> afternoon is the hardest, so I make my plans accordingly - no
changes during
> those times to stress me more. Ideally we can either be home then,
or
> somewhere where we can stay put that is low key or contained enough
that I
> am not worried about chasing Crispin down every 5 seconds.
>
> I feel like I am whining. I don't want to be whining, but I am just
> drowning. I am surrounded by awesome attachment parenting mamas
who make it
> look easy. And they spend all day with their kids! My husband has
mine a
> lot of the time. I feel so hopeless about being able to keep them
home. I'm
> not willing to give up but I am just aching and sinking. I am
treating my
> kids very much like I was treated minus the hitting. It is killing
me. I
> just don't know how to interact with them like I think I am
supposed to, or
> at least want to. I was a barely seen *never* heard kid without
siblings or
> neighborhood kids that were 'acceptable' playmates. My kids have
tons of
> friends to play with but we have to drive to them - which we do
regularly.
> It's the play with mommy part - sigh. I just never interacted with
anyone
> that way. It's almost like I get scared right away at the
thought. I
> literally sink in my chair and pull my shirt over my head
sometimes. Has
> anyone else remotely felt like this? I feel so guilty like my kids
are just
> going to hate me for screwing them up. I wanted to be a cool mom
that my
> kids really like. My kids *do* like me, but the nasty little voice
in my
> head says it's just because they don't know any different.
Eventually they
> will figure out what they are missing like I did.
>
> This doesn't have to be so hard!!! I've got books, websites,
people. The
> answer isn't there, it's in me. I keep asking anyway because I
hope that
> something will turn on a light bulb.
> --
> Heather, mom to
> Harriet 12.15.99
> Crispin 01.25.02
> heatherette@c...

catherine aceto

Take it minute by minute. Don't worry about what you are going to do in tomorrow, this evening or two hours from now. Think about how to make this minute a better minute. If you don't like the way the minute went, don't think you've blown it for all of life or the year or week or hour or day, try to make the next minute better.

Don't think about what you are feeling -- think about what you are doing. In other words, fake it 'till you make it.

Think about whether there are some things that are more fun than others -- dolls, waterplay, art, making cookies, playing in a tent, running in the yard, dancing to silly songs. You can suggest things that you'd rather play and see if you children like them. Your kids are what -- 5 and 2? IMO experience it is a very forgiving age - they seem to like almost anything as long as you are doing it with them.

Have you thought about counseling? It sounds like you may have some pretty deep issues to work through.

-Cat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

>>>>Obviously I am
> working with some serious leftovers that are effecting my parenting. >>>>>

Heather,

What if you had your kids "teach" you how to play? When my kids were the
ages of your kids, they loved for me to basically be a big doll that they
could use as a prop. It took little input from me. I simply did what they
told me to do.

One of the funnest games we used to play with my grandfather was beauty
shop. While he was taking his nap on the couch, he let my cousin and I comb
and "fix" his hair. Afterward, we would take a picture and laugh and laugh.
He did nothing but lay there with his eyes closed.

What about activity related play? Give yourself some structure around which
to let play build. Make a craft, bake some cookies.

If it is a real problem for you, you might consider consulting a play
therapist and having that person work with all three of you together in a
few sessions. Just a thought, since I don't really know your background.

From you posts, it seems as though you have convinced yourself you are going
to fail so you are too scared to try. Perhaps you are screwing your kids
up. How can playing, even in some "wrong" way, screw them up worse? What
have you got to lose?

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Hall" <Heatherette@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4817


> > You don't like general suggestions about changing your thinking?
> >
> > You don't like discussion of thinking patterns and priorities?
> It's not so much that I don't like generalities, more like I am going in
> circles and I can't figure out how to get off the merry go round.
> Generalities seem to make the merry go round go faster. I have been
reading
> here and nodding and absorbing and thinking, I can do that! Then one
thing
> goes wrong and the next thing you know I'm hiding under the basements
stairs
> until I can be calm enough to be in the same room with my kids and feel
> safe. A lot of this is trying not to repeat patterns. So I am going to
try
> to figure out more specifically what it is I am looking for.
>
> Ok, so I went and read a bunch of the links you sent. Right now I feel
like
> having a great big pity party all by myself. I want to run and hide. I
> feel like the biggest failure in the world. Now that I have that behind
me,
> I need to figure out what to do instead. Since I had my second child my
> parenting goals have been very simple. My very basic goal was to not hit
my
> kids. The others all seem like easy to me like providing organic food,
only
> using non toxic stuff in my house, read to them, make sure they get to
call
> their grandmas often enough to have a clue who they are.
> That just isn't enough anymore. It seems like one of the biggest
obstacles
> for me is play.
>
> Seems like so many people say to me, just get down and play with them.
> Follow their lead. It sounds so easy, and often they are looking me in
the
> eye like, why is that so hard? To me, it's like instant panic. I want to
> pull up a corner of the carpet and get under it and hide! Obviously I am
> working with some serious leftovers that are effecting my parenting. I am
> working really hard on it. However, I still have these awesome kids that
I
> love and desperately want to give a better start. What do I do in the
> meantime to cope? I don't want to give up. Like I said before, the
> afternoon is the hardest, so I make my plans accordingly - no changes
during
> those times to stress me more. Ideally we can either be home then, or
> somewhere where we can stay put that is low key or contained enough that I
> am not worried about chasing Crispin down every 5 seconds.
>
> I feel like I am whining. I don't want to be whining, but I am just
> drowning. I am surrounded by awesome attachment parenting mamas who make
it
> look easy. And they spend all day with their kids! My husband has mine a
> lot of the time. I feel so hopeless about being able to keep them home.
I'm
> not willing to give up but I am just aching and sinking. I am treating my
> kids very much like I was treated minus the hitting. It is killing me. I
> just don't know how to interact with them like I think I am supposed to,
or
> at least want to. I was a barely seen *never* heard kid without siblings
or
> neighborhood kids that were 'acceptable' playmates. My kids have tons of
> friends to play with but we have to drive to them - which we do regularly.
> It's the play with mommy part - sigh. I just never interacted with anyone
> that way. It's almost like I get scared right away at the thought. I
> literally sink in my chair and pull my shirt over my head sometimes. Has
> anyone else remotely felt like this? I feel so guilty like my kids are
just
> going to hate me for screwing them up. I wanted to be a cool mom that my
> kids really like. My kids *do* like me, but the nasty little voice in my
> head says it's just because they don't know any different. Eventually
they
> will figure out what they are missing like I did.
>
> This doesn't have to be so hard!!! I've got books, websites, people. The
> answer isn't there, it's in me. I keep asking anyway because I hope that
> something will turn on a light bulb.
> --
> Heather, mom to
> Harriet 12.15.99
> Crispin 01.25.02
> heatherette@...
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sylvia Toyama

There is this voice in my head that says "you should..OR ELSE." many, many times.

*****

Pat, did you happen to catch a workshop by Taber Shadburne at the RE conference? One was all about shoulds, and how by their nature they differ from both wants and needs. That they are voices running counter to our wants and seldom have to do with real needs either. They're the voices of our parents, society, etc that try to make us do things we don't want to do.

One exercise he had us do that was felt kind of silly was to get with a partner and trade shoulds. Even tho it felt silly, I had a huge revelation in it! I'll try to explain it...

You face the partner and say to them all the things you think your kids (or you) should do. Yanno, stuff like 'they should clean their rooms' 'they should be nicer to each other' 'they should do the dishes for me' and so on.

Your partner refutes each should by saying 'NO' -- that's it.

Then your partner parrots all of your shoulds back to you -- your kids should be nicer; your kids should clean their rooms, etc. And it's your turn to just say NO.

By this time it was feeling kinda silly. Then I heard the voice in my head!

As my partner is saying 'your kids should help with housework' I'm saying NO aloud, but in my head a voice is saying, 'but they should want to....' Wait a minute! Now I'm wanting them to want to do what I want them to do to ease my work? to make my life more pleasant or easier?

Then it hit me -- that's why people load us up with shoulds! To make their lives easier -- sometimes physically easier (make kids stay quiet and well-behaved) but often it's to make their lives easier emotionally. If we just accept their shoulds without question and do things their way, they don't need to question their choices! This is probably especially true of parents who need to feel they did a 'good job' of raising their children to adulthood. Anything we do differently casts suspicion on how they parented. I've come to see this is a big part of why my Mom sometimes seems so defensive about her methods that I've rejected.

Anyway I don't really know where I was going with this, but for me it was a huge moment in my parenting.

Syl

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn Adams

Heather writes:
It seems like one of the biggest obstacles
for me is play.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm not one for playing with my kids in some ways either (not that I'm at your degree but it's something more moms then you'd guess struggle with I be).. It can just drive me up the wall to sit down for 10 minutes of Barbies or a game of trouble. So...sometimes I just grit my teeth and do it...but that's rare. Sometimes I sit down and let my daughter absolutely direct what I do in the play so there's not much effort for me but she still has a ball. Mostly though I sit down with some thread and old socks and sew up Barbie or My Little Pony clothes while she plays. We talk, we're close, she's happy. Sometimes when they want you to play with them you can actually do something beside them and they're happy. While they're colouring, read but pay attention to what they're doing. You can play on your terms too. I'm doing a jigsaw right now and invite Catherine to help me and we talk as we put it together.
And what about switching your day around? If the morning is easier, play with them then. Use the afternoon for their baths or a long movie where you make them snacks and a 'bed' on the floor and you can doze off on the sofa and rest up while they watch TV. I used to think that last tactic was irresponsible but it got me off their back at the worst part of the day for me and I got rested up so I was a more cheerful mom for the rest of the day. Plus it gets them the protein people have been suggested and a bit of a rest.

Dawn (in NS)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<It's the play with mommy part - sigh. I just never interacted with
anyone
that way. It's almost like I get scared right away at the thought. >>>

Your fears that are coming up are tough issues, from your childhood. It is
pretty difficult to talk yourself out of these feelings alone. Don't be
reluctant to get some professional counseling or group therapy to deal with
that, outside of the good examples of the good parents around you.

One practical play suggestion:

I notice you have a 4yo girl. Does she play Barbies? Isn't it the most
stultifyingly dull activity in the world? What I do when Jayn wants me to
play Barbies with her is suggest that I will comb their hair. It keeps my
hands busy, Jayn feels like I am interacting with her, but I am saved from a
lot of the little voice role playing part. Jayn does that herself with me
near her combing and curling.

Another play suggestion that works with Jayn is that she will draw pictures
and tell me the story of them, which I write down on a second piece of
paper.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/1/04 9:54:05 PM, sylgt04@... writes:

<< Pat, did you happen to catch a workshop by Taber Shadburne at the RE
conference? One was all about shoulds, and how by their nature they differ from
both wants and needs. That they are voices running counter to our wants and
seldom have to do with real needs either. They're the voices of our parents,
society, etc that try to make us do things we don't want to do. >>

To describe it that way without considering the good it does is problematical.

The terms for these things are superego (the voices, which are in some part
your conscience and your history, and so shouldn't totally be dismantled), the
ego (your wholest self-awareness self) and the id (the lizard-brain selfish
gimmes).

It's kind of a cartoonish summary, but to demote the super-ego to something
we should just yell NO at isn't any more helpful than following it blindly.

I can see the value of the exercise insofar as it stirred up your quick, real
feelings, but if you're dismissing parental need to feel comfortable I think
you're making a mistake. There needs to be a balance. Otherwise you seem to
be saying "It would have been better if I had had my way at my mother's
expense, and to make up for that, I will let my kids have their way at my expense."

-=- To make their lives easier -- sometimes physically easier (make kids stay
quiet and well-behaved) but often it's to make their lives easier
emotionally. If we just accept their shoulds without question and do things their way,
they don't need to question their choices! This is probably especially true of
parents who need to feel they did a 'good job' of raising their children to
adulthood. -=-

Maybe by "good job" you mean mainstream high school-to-college and nothing
else is "a good job." But all humans do better if they feel they're ratcheting
toward "good" than if they feel they've just given up and good isn't
accessible to them. If it takes adjusting the definition of "good," that's fine. But
rejecting it isn't healthy.

My unschooling is largely based around an easier life, emotionally and
physically--not just for my kids, but for me too. Having accepting, loving,
attentive, patient, humorous interactions does make up for some lacks in my
childhood, but if my childhood had a lack and my children don't have that lack, that
makes my life better emotionally.

If I feel better and they feel better, I'm for it.

Sandra

eriksmama2001

No, but my husband was at this workshop and shared the exercise with
me. He found it to be very empowering and eye-opening. I did see
Taber Shadburne's 'Authentic Parenting' session and it too was
powerfully enlightening. It helped me to see the choices I had
reguarding my relationship with my father relative to being honest
with myself and my son about that relationship.

Taber was so present one-on-one with every individual that it was an
amazingly connection to just meet the man. A very different
interpersonal interaction than I had really ever experienced with a
stranger. Fascinating man, practical messages.

I asked if he had a book available, he is working on one.

Pat


--- In [email protected], Sylvia Toyama
<sylgt04@y...> wrote:
> There is this voice in my head that says "you should..OR ELSE."
many, many times.
>
> *****
>
> Pat, did you happen to catch a workshop by Taber Shadburne at the
RE conference? One was all about shoulds, and how by their nature
they differ from both wants and needs. That they are voices running
counter to our wants and seldom have to do with real needs either.
They're the voices of our parents, society, etc that try to make us
do things we don't want to do.
>
> One exercise he had us do that was felt kind of silly was to get
with a partner and trade shoulds. Even tho it felt silly, I had a
huge revelation in it! I'll try to explain it...
>
> You face the partner and say to them all the things you think your
kids (or you) should do. Yanno, stuff like 'they should clean their
rooms' 'they should be nicer to each other' 'they should do the
dishes for me' and so on.
>
> Your partner refutes each should by saying 'NO' -- that's it.
>
> Then your partner parrots all of your shoulds back to you -- your
kids should be nicer; your kids should clean their rooms, etc. And
it's your turn to just say NO.
>
> By this time it was feeling kinda silly. Then I heard the voice in
my head!
>
> As my partner is saying 'your kids should help with housework' I'm
saying NO aloud, but in my head a voice is saying, 'but they should
want to....' Wait a minute! Now I'm wanting them to want to do what
I want them to do to ease my work? to make my life more pleasant or
easier?
>
> Then it hit me -- that's why people load us up with shoulds! To
make their lives easier -- sometimes physically easier (make kids
stay quiet and well-behaved) but often it's to make their lives
easier emotionally. If we just accept their shoulds without question
and do things their way, they don't need to question their choices!
This is probably especially true of parents who need to feel they did
a 'good job' of raising their children to adulthood. Anything we do
differently casts suspicion on how they parented. I've come to see
this is a big part of why my Mom sometimes seems so defensive about
her methods that I've rejected.
>
> Anyway I don't really know where I was going with this, but for me
it was a huge moment in my parenting.
>
> Syl
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

**

I notice you have a 4yo girl. Does she play Barbies? Isn't it the most
stultifyingly dull activity in the world? What I do when Jayn wants me to
play Barbies with her is suggest that I will comb their hair. It keeps my
hands busy, Jayn feels like I am interacting with her, but I am saved from a
lot of the little voice role playing part. **

Good suggestion.

I have a boy, and when he was 4 the hardest play for me was when he wanted to play cars, with the cars talking to each other. Making track and rolling cars down it I can understand. But a herd of small cars chattering to each other? I was soooo stumped as to what to say.

Betsy

Sylvia Toyama

Otherwise you seem to be saying "It would have been better if I had had my way at my mother's expense, and to make up for that, I will let my kids have their way at my expense."

****

I hadn't really thought about it that way, but I can see that now. I don't really feel it would have been better if I'd had my way at her expense, but I find that I still carry resentment for being given what I consider too many household chores and being treated like a live-in babysitter. I guess it would have been nice if I'd occasionally been allowed to just be a kid, even if it came at her expense.

I'll admit that in my early parenting I probably asked too little for myself, let the pendulum swing too far to the kid-indulgent side. I was determined to show her how badly I'd been treated by rejecting all her ways. And I'm not really good at making time to take care of my needs. That maybe because my needs didn't matter as a child for a very long time, so I never learned to put myself first where it counts. Anytime I demand more from me, I feel like I'm doing just what was done to me.

***
Maybe by "good job" you mean mainstream high school-to-college and nothing else is "a good job." But all humans do better if they feel they're ratcheting toward "good" than if they feel they've just given up and good isn't accessible to them. If it takes adjusting the definition of "good," that's fine. But
rejecting it isn't healthy.

****

I didn't mean to say it's a good idea to reject the idea of doing a 'good job' or to lose hope of doing a good job. Just that it's helpful to figure out what your standards and expectations for a 'good job' are. Traditionally, 'good job' has meant raising children who go straight from high school to college, marry, have a family and never embarrass or disappoint their parents; who manage to anticipate and avoid every possible mistake so that no one has to explain how that happened and where the parents 'failed.'

I consider a good job to be helping my kids learn to be kind, respectful, loving, helpful, how to express thanks and compassion, be honest and live a life with integrity and self-respect. I'm sure there's more, but the point is I don't care if my kids never go to college, or work at a job others consider beneath them. It won't embarrass me if they drop out of college (even repeatedly) or divorce, or never marry or make choices no one else understands, so long as they aren't leaving human devastation in their wake. I will never tell them that they're too smart to make mistakes. That was my Mom's mantra with me as a child -- drove me nuts!

What I didn't say, is that I've reframed things so that I removed shoulds from my own thought. I'm just not able to use that word, it's loaded for me. Instead I define things -- being kind, responsible, thoughtful, etc -- as things I need to do, or even want to do to make life more pleasant for everyone (myself included), rather than things I 'should' do. And I'm trying to watch out for how I frame things I think the boys 'should' do or want to do. I've found that when I hear myself thinking should, it's never about something I really feel is important or necessary, but about things others expect of me that I'd never presume to expect of them, or that I'm confident they already know and don't need me nagging them about.

Actually, the kids still at home are much more helpful around the house, quicker to say thanks or I'm sorry, and the like, than my oldest was in the days when we 'required' more of him. Gary has commented several times how often the boys say thank you or please, with no prompting from us. His Mom is the self-appointed expert on when thank you is necessary and just how effusive it must be. He grew up hearing lots of shoulds.

I need to pay more attention to the unspoken messages I'm hearing as shoulds. I continue to feel like I'm somehow a disappointment to my parents (and my inlaws), in that they don't understand my choices and they think I'm making mistakes I'll come to regret. My Mom especially seems to feel a need to protect me from myself by offering unsolicited advice -- advice that always makes me feel like she thinks I just don't yet see that I'm wrong, but will someday. Yanno, that I'm too smart for this. <g> One the one hand I'd like to please them -- on the other, I take some secret pleasure in being contrary.

Reading this I see that her moving back has me more out of sorts than I realized. Probably explains where my head has been the last week or so.

Syl










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In a message dated 8/2/2004 11:04:42 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
I was determined to show her how badly I'd been treated by rejecting all her
ways.
==========

I know that feeling.

When Kirby was just walking, I used to have a little conversation in my head.
He would want to try or do something, I would hear my mom's mean "no" or
'you're too little' and I would say the opposite to him. It was me consciously
healing my own inner child.

There were thousands of times my mom could have said yes, but said no out of
laziness or jealousy or spite or something harsh I has never felt and still
can't imagine.

And then there were times when she'd be drunk and not really paying attention
to us at all.


-=-That maybe because my needs didn't matter as a child for a very long time,
so I never learned to put myself first where it counts. Anytime I demand
more from me, I feel like I'm doing just what was done to me. -=-

Well that's a problem I had never considered.

Can you look at it more as sharing or turn-taking than "myself first"?

Sandra


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Sylvia Toyama

Anytime I demand
more from me, I feel like I'm doing just what was done to me.

*****

That should have read 'demand more from them for me.' I'm just not good at asking the kids to do more around the house. I'm just not good at letting others do for me or take care of me. I do find myself overwhelmed at times.

I like the idea of taking turns. I'll have to try that. It's not that the boys don't like to help, it's finding the patience in myself to let them help.

A big step for me -- one I didn't figure out until my oldest was too old to really correct myself easily -- was learning to let them do a job like a child (incomplete at first). I wasn't very good at showing him how to do a job, or at having the patience to work thru the learning process. It was just easier to pick up the toys, than to wait for him to complete the job. I was single and working full-time, it seemed there was just never enough time to wait while he struggled to tie his shoes. Over time, my resentment would build that I was doing too much.

I know I created the problem by not allowing time for him to learn and just doing it myself. As he got older, I got better at allowing him the time to master things. Now when Dan wants to load the washer and add the soap, or use the broom, I lift him and help him do it. When Andy wants to make his own frozen pizza or mop the kitchen floor, I say sure and tell him to ask for help if he needs it. Then, I was more likely to brush aside all attempts to help as being too time-consuming. Then, it seemed all I ever said was 'it's easier to just do it myself.'

Now is really so much better.

Syl


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In a message dated 8/2/04 6:48:36 PM, sylgt04@... writes:

<< It was just easier to pick up the toys, than to wait for him to complete
the job. >>

Doing it together has always been our best solution. Then nobody failed to do
it, we all succeeded in getting it done.

-=- When Andy wants to make his own frozen pizza or mop the kitchen floor, I
say sure and tell him to ask for help if he needs it. -=-

I still say to Holly, "Do you want me to help you?" Sometimes she just wants
me there, or for me to spot her and see what she's forgetting. Last night
late, she wanted to make macaroni and cheese with tuna. Boxed macaroni. I
reminded her to put salt in the water, I opened and drained the tuna, got her a
big bowl for melting the butter in (she mixed the warmed butter, milk and cheese
sauce together in advance) and I put a colander in the sink.

That's the same kind of help I would have given any other cook. I did prep
and stayed out of her way. We did it together, only really she did it. But
she didn't feel like I had left her all alone.

Sandra

Kelly Muzyczka

>That's the same kind of help I would have given any other cook.


And isn't that the point? -smile- I can't tell you how much internal
mileage I've gotten over asking myself the question: "Would I ask hubby
that way?" I even caught myself talking to hubby in an amazingly
irritating way the other day. Thought to myself, "Hey, I would appoligize
to the kids if I spoke to them like that!" So, of course, I did.

Kelly