Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] being calm
Heather Hall
I hear you! and the voice in my head too ;)
I have recently consciously made the effort to just let go sometimes. Even
if my kids are completely emptying the bookshelves or arguing or whatever, I
just tell them they are going to have to figure it out for themselves. I
can't always fix everything or be a constant moderator. Sometimes they are
hitting each other, but I tell them if they don't like it, the 2 of them are
going to have to figure out a better way to play together or decide to play
apart. Mommy needs some time to herself! I'd rather have 2 hours to myself
totally absorbed in a magazine or whatever and have to reassemble their room
later, than to fight for 2 hours and keep it tidy. So far no one has bled
or broken anything. They have gotten very loud and frustrated sometimes,
but I choose not to take the bait and tell them to figure it out. It felt
so mean the first few times but they can actually figure it out now after
hearing me say over and over 'what do you want to be different? Ok, so tell
him that!' etc. I did give direction I guess, but I refused to get up from
my spot. Now they have figured out how to play either together, side by
side, or that they also can choose to get up and go find something else to
do on their own. And then of course sometimes they don't ;) I think the
biggest thing that helped was figuring out what was the time of day I needed
the break most. From 2-4 pm, I hit a wall. I am tired, cranky, short
tempered and mean. So, I interact much more with my kids at other times and
save that time for 'leave me alone' time.
The other thing is - I *know* they are capable of getting along and enjoying
each other. They do it very well when I am not around, like when I swap
date night with a friend or something. I return to wonderful compliments
about how kind and gentle they are etc. I no longer try to participate in
getting them ready for bed and to sleep because if I do, they fight and
argue and stay awake forever. With my dh, they read some books, brush
teeth, turn out the lights, sing a few songs, and fall asleep 10 minutes
later or less. Mommy is the 'safe' zone where they can let it all out and
test etc.
Now what I *haven't* figured out is how to get them to cooperate with me
when I need to get in & out of a store or whatever. Charles can take them
all day on errands and they get along great. For me, they fight argue, beg,
whine. Sigh.
Heather, mom to
Harriet 12.15.99
Crispin 01.25.02
heatherette@...
I have recently consciously made the effort to just let go sometimes. Even
if my kids are completely emptying the bookshelves or arguing or whatever, I
just tell them they are going to have to figure it out for themselves. I
can't always fix everything or be a constant moderator. Sometimes they are
hitting each other, but I tell them if they don't like it, the 2 of them are
going to have to figure out a better way to play together or decide to play
apart. Mommy needs some time to herself! I'd rather have 2 hours to myself
totally absorbed in a magazine or whatever and have to reassemble their room
later, than to fight for 2 hours and keep it tidy. So far no one has bled
or broken anything. They have gotten very loud and frustrated sometimes,
but I choose not to take the bait and tell them to figure it out. It felt
so mean the first few times but they can actually figure it out now after
hearing me say over and over 'what do you want to be different? Ok, so tell
him that!' etc. I did give direction I guess, but I refused to get up from
my spot. Now they have figured out how to play either together, side by
side, or that they also can choose to get up and go find something else to
do on their own. And then of course sometimes they don't ;) I think the
biggest thing that helped was figuring out what was the time of day I needed
the break most. From 2-4 pm, I hit a wall. I am tired, cranky, short
tempered and mean. So, I interact much more with my kids at other times and
save that time for 'leave me alone' time.
The other thing is - I *know* they are capable of getting along and enjoying
each other. They do it very well when I am not around, like when I swap
date night with a friend or something. I return to wonderful compliments
about how kind and gentle they are etc. I no longer try to participate in
getting them ready for bed and to sleep because if I do, they fight and
argue and stay awake forever. With my dh, they read some books, brush
teeth, turn out the lights, sing a few songs, and fall asleep 10 minutes
later or less. Mommy is the 'safe' zone where they can let it all out and
test etc.
Now what I *haven't* figured out is how to get them to cooperate with me
when I need to get in & out of a store or whatever. Charles can take them
all day on errands and they get along great. For me, they fight argue, beg,
whine. Sigh.
> If I sit down--
> with a cup of tea after playing with them or serving lunch and cleaning the
> kitchen, I can't even finish it without getting up several times to deal
> with something. I don't suppose that this is unsual for a mother with 3
> young children, and I guess that's the crux of it. I'm thinking that unless
> I can come up with some money for an occasional sitter or mother's helper,
> then this is it for awhile. I can't tell you how much I wish I could truly
> relax for a WHOLE day! LOL
>
> Anyway, sorry to overwhelm everyone with my long and intense post. I'm kind
> of embarrassed now. Oh well, I'm embarrassed even when I'm all alone with
> myself. I hear this voice in my head, "What's wrong with you? Breathe.
> How can this be so hard?"
Heather, mom to
Harriet 12.15.99
Crispin 01.25.02
heatherette@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/30/2004 12:09:57 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
Heatherette@... writes:
Even
if my kids are completely emptying the bookshelves or arguing or whatever, I
just tell them they are going to have to figure it out for themselves.
-----------------
Poor kids, though. If an adult can't figure it out, how can little kids?
My parents raised two cousins along with me and my sister. The ages went
like this (and so forth along) 10, 9, 7, 6. My sister and I were 9 and 6 in that
lineup.
The second cousin (7) was abusive to the rest of us. Mean, sneaky, she hit.
There was no "figuring it out." We needed to be defended from her and
protected from her. So because of my experience with that, I bristle when mother
blythely announced that they will let their kids work out their differences.
Each child should have peace and safety in her own home.
I just wrote this earlier today somewhere else. <g>
-=-So far no one has bled
or broken anything. They have gotten very loud and frustrated sometimes,
but I choose not to take the bait and tell them to figure it out. -=-
There are hurts that don't bleed.
"Take the bait"? You think their argument is about you?
-=-I think the
biggest thing that helped was figuring out what was the time of day I needed
the break most. From 2-4 pm, I hit a wall. I am tired, cranky, short
tempered and mean. -=-
Maybe you're hungry. Maybe food would help at 1:45. Protein, maybe.
-=- but they can actually figure it out now after
hearing me say over and over 'what do you want to be different? Ok, so tell
him that!' etc. I did give direction I guess, but I refused to get up from
my spot.-=-
I recommend not saying ANY thing over and over. Say it a new way every time.
And maybe you could get up from "your spot" and give them some food, a drink
of juice, a hug.
-=- Mommy is the 'safe' zone where they can let it all out and
test etc.
-=-
Are you less guarded and formal with your husband than with strangers?
I know I am.
But just because he's the safest person in my life doesn't mean I'm testing
him when I let thing out. I doubt your kids are "testing you."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heatherette@... writes:
Even
if my kids are completely emptying the bookshelves or arguing or whatever, I
just tell them they are going to have to figure it out for themselves.
-----------------
Poor kids, though. If an adult can't figure it out, how can little kids?
My parents raised two cousins along with me and my sister. The ages went
like this (and so forth along) 10, 9, 7, 6. My sister and I were 9 and 6 in that
lineup.
The second cousin (7) was abusive to the rest of us. Mean, sneaky, she hit.
There was no "figuring it out." We needed to be defended from her and
protected from her. So because of my experience with that, I bristle when mother
blythely announced that they will let their kids work out their differences.
Each child should have peace and safety in her own home.
I just wrote this earlier today somewhere else. <g>
-=-So far no one has bled
or broken anything. They have gotten very loud and frustrated sometimes,
but I choose not to take the bait and tell them to figure it out. -=-
There are hurts that don't bleed.
"Take the bait"? You think their argument is about you?
-=-I think the
biggest thing that helped was figuring out what was the time of day I needed
the break most. From 2-4 pm, I hit a wall. I am tired, cranky, short
tempered and mean. -=-
Maybe you're hungry. Maybe food would help at 1:45. Protein, maybe.
-=- but they can actually figure it out now after
hearing me say over and over 'what do you want to be different? Ok, so tell
him that!' etc. I did give direction I guess, but I refused to get up from
my spot.-=-
I recommend not saying ANY thing over and over. Say it a new way every time.
And maybe you could get up from "your spot" and give them some food, a drink
of juice, a hug.
-=- Mommy is the 'safe' zone where they can let it all out and
test etc.
-=-
Are you less guarded and formal with your husband than with strangers?
I know I am.
But just because he's the safest person in my life doesn't mean I'm testing
him when I let thing out. I doubt your kids are "testing you."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
--- In [email protected], Heather Hall
<Heatherette@c...> wrote:
really young. I think too young to expect them to work things out on
their own or left unsupervised for long periods of time. I would
think at this age they really need you right there helping them work
out disagreements, helping brainstorm solutions that they both like,
engaging them in play. My son is almost 8, and his niece just turned
9, and i still have to help them work things out sometimes.
there has to be a better solution, when one child is hitting another,
to say "if you don't like it leave the room"...i think first and
foremost i would want to immediately stop the hitting behavior.
Sandra has made some good comments in the past about siblings hitting
each other. Its really important to create a safe zone where this
stuff is taken seriously (esp if its usually one doing most of the
hitting)and talked about, and stopped. That being said, i have 7
brothers and sisters and i know that kids can get rough with each
other. But i just think toddler and preschool age kids need a great
deal of supervision.
think your expectations are too high. It seems you are saying (and i
admittedly havent read the entire thread)that you want to be able to
be totally uninterrupted for two hours, to be able to focus on you
during that time. I dont think you'll get the kind of mommy time you
want until your kids are older. I've also found that my son and his
niece have much better behavior and get along more effectively when i
am there with them, helping them figure stuff out, rather than when
they are in a room by themselves left to their own devices.
instinct and really look at *why* it felt mean. The above statement
reminds me of the justification for letting a baby cry himself to
sleep "it felt mean to let him cry but after several nights of him
knowing we werent picking him up, he stopped crying and went to sleep
on his own. It worked!" But did it really? I think that you can give
the same kind of info you were giving them ("Tell him what you want
to be different")but present it in a more positive way. I encourage
my niece and my son to work things out themselves, but i also try to
model some good communication strategies ("Anna, you seem to saying
you feel its not fair that seamus is taking more turns at the game
than you, and now you want to stop playing? Seamus, you seem to be
saying that the reason you took more turns is because anna said it
was ok, and now you feel she is punishing you for that. How can we
work this out? What do you think would be fair to both of you?")
just as long as they don't bug you while you are getting your
downtime. I can see how, with a mom who is stressed with very young
kids, who feels she needs this time to stay sane, it might be a
better strategy than, say, spanking them into submission, or putting
them in time out, or locking them out of the house. But it doesnt
seem ideal. Can maybe you take them somewhere every day, like the
park, and read while they play on the equiptment? When my son was a
bit younger, and i wanted some time to read, or just zone out a
little, i would take him to Chuck E Cheese, or McDonalds Playplace,
and let him play while i focused on my magazine or whatever. Your
kids might be less likely to fight if they are in a new, interesting,
neutral location like that.
That being said, i really do feel for you. I can only imagine how
exhausting it can be to have more than one. By the end of each week,
i am ready to send my niece back to her home, so we can have piece
and quiet again.
Katherine
<Heatherette@c...> wrote:
> I have recently consciously made the effort to just let goI noticed in your sig line your kids are ages 2 and 4? Thats really
>sometimes. Even if my kids are completely emptying the bookshelves
>or arguing or whatever, I just tell them they are going to have to
>figure it out for themselves.
really young. I think too young to expect them to work things out on
their own or left unsupervised for long periods of time. I would
think at this age they really need you right there helping them work
out disagreements, helping brainstorm solutions that they both like,
engaging them in play. My son is almost 8, and his niece just turned
9, and i still have to help them work things out sometimes.
>Sometimes they are hitting each other, but I tell them if they don'tI only have the one child, so i might be way off base, but i think
>like it, the 2 of them are going to have to figure out a better way
>to play together or decide to play apart. Mommy needs some time to
>herself!
there has to be a better solution, when one child is hitting another,
to say "if you don't like it leave the room"...i think first and
foremost i would want to immediately stop the hitting behavior.
Sandra has made some good comments in the past about siblings hitting
each other. Its really important to create a safe zone where this
stuff is taken seriously (esp if its usually one doing most of the
hitting)and talked about, and stopped. That being said, i have 7
brothers and sisters and i know that kids can get rough with each
other. But i just think toddler and preschool age kids need a great
deal of supervision.
>I'd rather have 2 hours to myself totally absorbed in a magazine orAgain, i don't have 2 preschoolers so maybe i am wrong here, but i
>whatever and have to reassemble their room later, than to fight for
>2 hours and keep it tidy.
think your expectations are too high. It seems you are saying (and i
admittedly havent read the entire thread)that you want to be able to
be totally uninterrupted for two hours, to be able to focus on you
during that time. I dont think you'll get the kind of mommy time you
want until your kids are older. I've also found that my son and his
niece have much better behavior and get along more effectively when i
am there with them, helping them figure stuff out, rather than when
they are in a room by themselves left to their own devices.
>itfelt so mean the first few times but they can actually figure itI think if something "felt mean" to you, you should listen to that
>ut now after hearing me say over and over 'what do you want to be
>ifferent? Ok, so tell him that!' etc.
instinct and really look at *why* it felt mean. The above statement
reminds me of the justification for letting a baby cry himself to
sleep "it felt mean to let him cry but after several nights of him
knowing we werent picking him up, he stopped crying and went to sleep
on his own. It worked!" But did it really? I think that you can give
the same kind of info you were giving them ("Tell him what you want
to be different")but present it in a more positive way. I encourage
my niece and my son to work things out themselves, but i also try to
model some good communication strategies ("Anna, you seem to saying
you feel its not fair that seamus is taking more turns at the game
than you, and now you want to stop playing? Seamus, you seem to be
saying that the reason you took more turns is because anna said it
was ok, and now you feel she is punishing you for that. How can we
work this out? What do you think would be fair to both of you?")
> did give direction I guess, but I refused to get up from my spot.You seem to be saying that you don't care how they work things out
just as long as they don't bug you while you are getting your
downtime. I can see how, with a mom who is stressed with very young
kids, who feels she needs this time to stay sane, it might be a
better strategy than, say, spanking them into submission, or putting
them in time out, or locking them out of the house. But it doesnt
seem ideal. Can maybe you take them somewhere every day, like the
park, and read while they play on the equiptment? When my son was a
bit younger, and i wanted some time to read, or just zone out a
little, i would take him to Chuck E Cheese, or McDonalds Playplace,
and let him play while i focused on my magazine or whatever. Your
kids might be less likely to fight if they are in a new, interesting,
neutral location like that.
That being said, i really do feel for you. I can only imagine how
exhausting it can be to have more than one. By the end of each week,
i am ready to send my niece back to her home, so we can have piece
and quiet again.
Katherine
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/30/2004 4:08:40 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
queenjane555@... writes:
My son is almost 8, and his niece just turned
9, and i still have to help them work things out sometimes.
----------
I agree.
Mine are 12, 15 and (as of yesterday) 18 and I'm willing to help them work
things out everytime, because they don't need to be harrassed by someone they
didn't choose to live with.
-=- Can maybe you take them somewhere every day, like the
park, and read while they play on the equiptment? When my son was a
bit younger, and i wanted some time to read, or just zone out a
little, i would take him to Chuck E Cheese, or McDonalds Playplace,
and let him play while i focused on my magazine or whatever. Your
kids might be less likely to fight if they are in a new, interesting,
neutral location like that.
-=-
Good idea!
Then they don't have the space and ownership problems they have at home.
We used to meet other families at parks sometimes just so we didn't have to
negotiate which family's rules or stuff or sharing traditions or whatever to go
by. Neutral space, neutral rules, and LOTS of room to wander away to avoid
something or get over frustration.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555@... writes:
My son is almost 8, and his niece just turned
9, and i still have to help them work things out sometimes.
----------
I agree.
Mine are 12, 15 and (as of yesterday) 18 and I'm willing to help them work
things out everytime, because they don't need to be harrassed by someone they
didn't choose to live with.
-=- Can maybe you take them somewhere every day, like the
park, and read while they play on the equiptment? When my son was a
bit younger, and i wanted some time to read, or just zone out a
little, i would take him to Chuck E Cheese, or McDonalds Playplace,
and let him play while i focused on my magazine or whatever. Your
kids might be less likely to fight if they are in a new, interesting,
neutral location like that.
-=-
Good idea!
Then they don't have the space and ownership problems they have at home.
We used to meet other families at parks sometimes just so we didn't have to
negotiate which family's rules or stuff or sharing traditions or whatever to go
by. Neutral space, neutral rules, and LOTS of room to wander away to avoid
something or get over frustration.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dawn Adams
>Sometimes they are hitting each other, but I tell them if they don'tMy time to myself shouldn't come at my kids expense. hitting is completely unacceptable and I have to step in as the enforcer in those situations. I do let them work things out at times but it's usually when there's a minor spat going on. About half the time they work it out, if it escalates to yelling I step in and help them come up with solutions. If there's hitting, everything stops. The one hit gets hugs while the one that hits goes to their room to calm done and the toy that was used (so often the case) gets put up for the day. Kids can't sort these things out by themselves if you haven't first shown them where the boundaries are and the only way to do that is to step in. They've only got a few years practice at living and usually not the experience to negotiate sometimes complicated situations. Have you thought that you're also telling them that when they are in situations where they are extremely angry, scared, etc., not to come to you? that you don't want them sharing their problems and you're time is more important?
>like it, the 2 of them are going to have to figure out a better way
>to play together or decide to play apart. Mommy needs some time to
>herself!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I do fight for me time sometimes and unless I can get right out of the house it rarely works. If I'm there, they need me and that's just how it works. The funny thing, when I give up the fight and surrender...It gets sooo much better. We have fun and I can just be myself with them.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather Hall
If you have any *specific* suggestions I am glad to hear them. Like I said,
when they figure it out on their own it seems to work better. When I try to
get involved, they fight more, I get so frustrated the next thing ya know
I'm screaming my head off and grabbing and slamming doors. The points
mentioned here about kids reflecting their parents stress level is exactly
what is going on here. In my heart and mind I feel very strongly about
natural learning and keeping them out of a dumbing down environment. I
haven't had any good role models growing up to emulate and so I am trying to
absorb as much as I can from my friends and reading etc. I ended up with on
unattainable ideal initially and I still haven't figured out how to believe
I can be a good mom. On one hand, I desperately want to enjoy my children
and interacting with them, and on the other, I do spend a large amount of
time trying to figure out how to escape them because mothering is
overwhelming for me. I can handle snuggling really well, but they just
don't want to snuggle all day. I can read 15 books in a row, I can turn on
the hose, I can get Barbie's clothes on & off. I think I fake it pretty
well. In reality I still am just not comfortable with my role. I had the
idea and strong picture of being a perfect parent and I didn't realize until
my babies were here that it had nothing to do with actual children. Now
they are here, they are amazing and I love them intensely, but so often I
wish I could watch them through a window so I wouldn't have to interact with
them. How do I fix that?
Heather, mom to
Harriet 12.15.99
Crispin 01.25.02
heatherette@...
when they figure it out on their own it seems to work better. When I try to
get involved, they fight more, I get so frustrated the next thing ya know
I'm screaming my head off and grabbing and slamming doors. The points
mentioned here about kids reflecting their parents stress level is exactly
what is going on here. In my heart and mind I feel very strongly about
natural learning and keeping them out of a dumbing down environment. I
haven't had any good role models growing up to emulate and so I am trying to
absorb as much as I can from my friends and reading etc. I ended up with on
unattainable ideal initially and I still haven't figured out how to believe
I can be a good mom. On one hand, I desperately want to enjoy my children
and interacting with them, and on the other, I do spend a large amount of
time trying to figure out how to escape them because mothering is
overwhelming for me. I can handle snuggling really well, but they just
don't want to snuggle all day. I can read 15 books in a row, I can turn on
the hose, I can get Barbie's clothes on & off. I think I fake it pretty
well. In reality I still am just not comfortable with my role. I had the
idea and strong picture of being a perfect parent and I didn't realize until
my babies were here that it had nothing to do with actual children. Now
they are here, they are amazing and I love them intensely, but so often I
wish I could watch them through a window so I wouldn't have to interact with
them. How do I fix that?
>> Sometimes they are hitting each other, but I tell them if they don't--
>> like it, the 2 of them are going to have to figure out a better way
>> to play together or decide to play apart. Mommy needs some time to
>> herself!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> My time to myself shouldn't come at my kids expense. hitting is completely
> unacceptable and I have to step in as the enforcer in those situations. I do
> let them work things out at times but it's usually when there's a minor spat
> going on. About half the time they work it out, if it escalates to yelling I
> step in and help them come up with solutions. If there's hitting, everything
> stops. The one hit gets hugs while the one that hits goes to their room to
> calm done and the toy that was used (so often the case) gets put up for the
> day. Kids can't sort these things out by themselves if you haven't first shown
> them where the boundaries are and the only way to do that is to step in.
> They've only got a few years practice at living and usually not the experience
> to negotiate sometimes complicated situations. Have you thought that you're
> also telling them that when they are in situations where they are extremely
> angry, scared, etc., not to come to you? that you don't want them sharing
> their problems and you're time is more important?
>
> I do fight for me time sometimes and unless I can get right out of the house
> it rarely works. If I'm there, they need me and that's just how it works. The
> funny thing, when I give up the fight and surrender...It gets sooo much
> better. We have fun and I can just be myself with them.
>
> Dawn (in NS)
>
Heather, mom to
Harriet 12.15.99
Crispin 01.25.02
heatherette@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/1/04 7:58:49 AM, Heatherette@... writes:
<< If you have any *specific* suggestions I am glad to hear them. >>
You don't like general suggestions about changing your thinking?
You don't like discussion of thinking patterns and priorities?
-=-The points
mentioned here about kids reflecting their parents stress level is exactly
what is going on here. In my heart and mind I feel very strongly about
natural learning and keeping them out of a dumbing down environment. I
haven't had any good role models growing up to emulate and so I am trying to
absorb as much as I can from my friends and reading etc. -=-
You might make better progress if you don't try to predict or dictate what
exact sort of advice you think you need.
-=-On one hand, I desperately want to enjoy my children
and interacting with them, and on the other, I do spend a large amount of
time trying to figure out how to escape them because mothering is
overwhelming for me. -=-
We're trying to help you. The specific suggestions people are making is to
change your perceptions. We know it's doable, because we've all done it.
Here are more things to read if you want. http://sandradodd.com/life
I should really just transcribe that talk on Peaceful Parenting. I'll have
some copies of the cassette tape at the conference in Boston.
-=-If you have any *specific* suggestions I am glad to hear them. -=-
I thought I had put this link here. You can't get much more specific than
this total play-by-play of something that works for more than just the single
incident, but helps people for the next times:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
Sandra
Sandra
<< If you have any *specific* suggestions I am glad to hear them. >>
You don't like general suggestions about changing your thinking?
You don't like discussion of thinking patterns and priorities?
-=-The points
mentioned here about kids reflecting their parents stress level is exactly
what is going on here. In my heart and mind I feel very strongly about
natural learning and keeping them out of a dumbing down environment. I
haven't had any good role models growing up to emulate and so I am trying to
absorb as much as I can from my friends and reading etc. -=-
You might make better progress if you don't try to predict or dictate what
exact sort of advice you think you need.
-=-On one hand, I desperately want to enjoy my children
and interacting with them, and on the other, I do spend a large amount of
time trying to figure out how to escape them because mothering is
overwhelming for me. -=-
We're trying to help you. The specific suggestions people are making is to
change your perceptions. We know it's doable, because we've all done it.
Here are more things to read if you want. http://sandradodd.com/life
I should really just transcribe that talk on Peaceful Parenting. I'll have
some copies of the cassette tape at the conference in Boston.
-=-If you have any *specific* suggestions I am glad to hear them. -=-
I thought I had put this link here. You can't get much more specific than
this total play-by-play of something that works for more than just the single
incident, but helps people for the next times:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
Sandra
Sandra