Re: One follow up comment - OHIO...
Ali Kat
Julie,
I don't know where you are located at, but we are from the Medina area. I took my daughter to Columbus to have her evaluated by an Unschooling friendly evaluator, and I HIGHLY recommend him. If you are interested, let me know.
Also, in Ohio the regs read that the child should progress according to his/her ability - NOT grade level. Be wary of using any forms the super sends you, as they generally ask for some type of info that is NOT required by state law. The form my super sent requests "grade level", which is not required. Also, they sent a letter informing me they need my "application" - which I found funny since I don't need to "apply" (which makes it sound like I need their permission) but only to "notify" of my intent to homeschool according to state code.
As far as writing goes, you may have to back WAY off on it. I can't imagine why he can't type... If he was in school and labeled as "learning disabled" they could/would make an IEP that would say he didn't have to write... So, if it's not essential for a child who has problems with learning, etc... why is it so important for one who doesn't? Even if your son did, why can't he learn additional/different methods of coping? Is the true skill that you want your child to learn WRITING or COMMUNICATING? Ever read a doctor's writing?? LOL <bg>
Alicia
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:20:25 -0000
From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@...>
Subject: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
--- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
<kellitraas@y...> wrote:
Hi Kelli.
me and others in making suggestions.
Ohio. We meet with a certified teacher who looks over our work for the
year and then
certifies that we've met our goals for the year and that the child has
"progressed" one
grade level. My evaluator is very relaxed and supportive, but she does
still have to have
something to say about math and writing. :)
from the library once and it did not go over well. I think to them it
was still premeditated.
Ya know, not just living our lives, we weren't just playing a game
cuz it looks fun. We
were playing Family "Math".
Yeah, same for us with him. Yu-Gi-Oh worked well for a long time but he
lost interest and
when we played Monopoly the other night, it was like all that knowledge
of adding,
subtracting he had gained was gone.
to take pictures? Would he want to make a picture book of the birds he
sees? That way
the interest would be documented.
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: kids making decisions for themselves
From: "mamaaj2000"
2. Re: Introduction/bleach question
From: "Jill Leggett"
3. older ways
From: SandraDodd@...
4. Introduction/kerosene/parenting
From: SandraDodd@...
5. Re: Re: kids making decisions for themselves
From: Michelle
6. on quoting in posts
From: SandraDodd@...
7. My ten year old
From: "Julie Bogart"
8. One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Julie Bogart"
9. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: tuckervill2@...
10. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Kelli Traaseth
11. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Elizabeth Hill
12. Re: My ten year old
From: SandraDodd@...
13. Re: Re: Introduction/bleach question
From: TreeGoddess
14. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Julie Bogart"
15. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Julie Bogart"
16. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "nellebelle"
17. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: TreeGoddess
18. Re: Re: dad shunned
From: Aimee
19. Re: My ten year old
From: "J. Stauffer"
20. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Aimee
21. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Aimee
22. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Deb Lewis
23. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: SandraDodd@...
24. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Penn Acres"
25. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Sara"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:57:37 -0000
From: "mamaaj2000"
Subject: Re: kids making decisions for themselves
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
wrote:
other day, I got him to laugh and then to play with ds, who was
trying so hard to get Papa to play. I leaned over and said to
dh "Pretend that his enthusiasm is infectious!"
--aj
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:29:48 -0000
From: "Jill Leggett"
Subject: Re: Introduction/bleach question
Thanks for the advice. My son is not interested enough right now to
do the research on his own. He just likes the idea of mixing
chemicals and creating explosions. I'll try to find some experiments
for him to do safely. I would like to find a demonstration like you
described.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:47:07 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: older ways
Warning that I'm going to veer away from the original topic.
<< Looking back I wonder why I had to do all that but I guess it's the
way men were taught to view their children then. "Do as I say." >>
It's still happening.
That's why it's so hard, I think, for families who are trying to be different
to just live their lives without so much side commentary about "just hit
them" kind of stuff.
-=-Sometimes I
wonder if we are making any head way....but we are; it's just
frustrating to deal with outdated, old fashioned emotional garbage. -=-
I think our kids will not fall into stuff like that. They can't "fall into
it." They didn't grow up with it! Things are changing, but it does seem
slow.
Yesterday I got an e-mail. Probably lots of other people who are listed
somewhere or other as contacts did too:
-----
Subj: Free homeschooling, child-training magzine
Date: 6, July Tuesday, 2004 2:32:50 PM
From: ngj@...
To: SandraDodd@...
Dear Sandra,
We would like to send you our free, full-color, sample /No Greater Joy/
magazine, to be given to each of person in your homeschool support
group. Hit the "Reply" button and give us the mailing address or
addresses, and the number of magazines you would like, and we will ship
them out in a few days. Our website can be viewed at www.nogreaterjoy.org.
Partners in building families,
Michael and Debi Pearl
No Greater Joy Ministries
1000 Pearl Road
Pleasantville, TN 37033
www.nogreaterjoy.org
-------
My response was:
In a message dated 7/6/04 2:32:50 PM, ngj@... writes:
<< We would like to send you our free, full-color, sample /No Greater Joy/
magazine, to be given to each of person in your homeschmagazines you would
like, and we will ship
them out in a few days. Our website can be viewed at www.nogreaterjoy.org. >>
No thank you.
I'm not running a Christian homeschooling group, nor a child abuse group.
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
--------------
It's sad that a WHOLE bunch of homeschoolers are about to get an infusion of
spanking instructions, free!!
Sandra
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:04:50 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Introduction/kerosene/parenting
-=-I have a question. My son's friend told him about an experiment
using bleach and kerosene. I told him it was too dangerous.
-=-Is this unschooling?-=-
Is telling him it's too dangerous unschooling?
It's parenting.
Is it the best parenting you could do?
I don't think so.
Neither do I think buying him some kerosene and handing him the bleach would
be good parenting.
<< Thanks for the advice. My son is not interested enough right now to
do the research on his own. >>
I don't think that's a good solution either.
If it were me, I'd ask the boy who gave him the advice what happens. If it's
a dangerous explosion or toxic gas, or if the answer is "I don't know" I
would tell him not to ever tell anyone else to mix those chemicals again, ever.
If he seemed receptive, I'd leave it at that. If he were defiant, I'd talk to
his mom.
But as to finding out what happens, I bet a quick google search would turn up
some interesting information, which you could share with your son, and all
would be happy and positive.
Making him look it up is punitive and doesn't teach joy in research.
Telling him "It's too dangerous" doesn't teach him anything except "maybe
mom's right, maybe mom's wrong." You don't want him mixing the chemicals later
to see, do you?
"Because I told you so" wouldn't be on my top-200 messages for unschooling
parents.
Now that google makes research so easy, I feel about this the same way I feel
about making a kid look a word up instead of just telling him how to spell
it, or telling him "it's in the encyclopedia" if he asks something about history
or geography.
It's here,
http://SandraDodd.com/aradicalthought
but it's short [quote to the end]:
Never tell a child "Go look it up." Parents, teachers, friends and
countrymen, how would you like it?
When a child wants to know why flowers have a scent, they want someone to say
"To attract bees" not "GO LOOK IT UP."
"Go look it up" tends to mean "I don't know" or "I know but I'm not going to
tell you." What's the advantage of that?
Either a child will opt NOT to look it up (and the trust in the parent will
erode a little) or he will, under duress, perform this task which might be
difficult for him, or might take so long that he doesn't care anymore (and the
trust in the parent will erode a little).
I'm NOT saying to discourage kids from looking things up. I never said not to
show kids how to look things up. I mean don't treat it like something parents
won't do, parents don't have to do, but that kids do, or that kids have to
do, because they are powerless kids.
Encyclopedias should be alluring, not forbidding. Dictionaries should be a
playland, not a dark, scary place you dart into for one thing and slam shut
behind you. If you believe they ARE fun, you should look things up in front of
your children, often, and with enthusiasm. That will teach them how to use
reference materials, and will make them want to do so, because they will see it as
something useful and enjoyable that adults do. If you believe dictionaries and
encyclopedias ARE dark, scary and forbidding, why on EARTH would you send your
children there?
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:59:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michelle
Subject: Re: Re: kids making decisions for themselves
I also see an innocence and willingness to "be immature" in a sweet
way. Not immature, but playful. Amazed. Not jaded. They're not on
a continuum, where they grasp the new thing and reject the old to
prove they're "old enough." It's like being a different species.
Yesterday my 6yo son and his 7yo schooled cousin were in the bathroom washing their hands. We had learned that if you sing Twinkle Little Star, and wash you hands thru the entire song, that you wash long enough to kill all the germs, and my son like to sing anyway, so he loves to do this. His cousin looked at him and told him that it was a baby song. I felt so sad for him. My son still loves to sing the same songs I sang to him as an small child when he gets into bed at night. He does not choose to do it as often as he use to, but I as still so very happy to sing to him whenever he chooses. It is so sad that school has completely driven that joy out of this child.
Michelle
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:30:02 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: on quoting in posts
Please put some kind of quotation marks on posts when you're quoting from
another post. Some people's e-mail shows bold face or different colors, but some
doesn't. Even if your quotes are in color, do something. ---- like that
maybe -----
or
+++++ front and back +++++++++
or the time-honored "real quotation marks"
I know some mailer programs dont like <> because it turns to a command
line, but find something you like, please, to make sorting who said what
easier. Thanks.
Sandra
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:09:35 -0000
From: "Julie Bogart"
Subject: My ten year old
I used to think unschooling meant unit studies and following a child's interests,
supplemented with the basics. But now that we've lived it, I've realized unschooling had
more to do with honoring the child. Certainly interests were a part of that, but if I focus on
interests, I sometimes find myself evaluating their choices instead of looking at my child -
to learn something new, important, true about him or her.
I've learned that knowing my child as he is, is more important than shaping him into
someone I think he ought to be.
And yet, I'm still nervous about things like times tables, basic math operations, and
handwriting for one of my children (10 years old). He still doesn't show interest in basic
math (even though we've done games and tricks to make it more tantalizing) and his
handwriting has deteriorated (he doesn't remember which way 'd's and 'b's go or 9s and 6s
etc.) The basics that most school teachers look for aren't there. He does read, though.
Otoh, he's memorized four poems by Robert Browning just because he likes them, he's
played hundreds of hours of Star Craft (both on his own and online), loves to be read to,
plays lacrosse, now enjoys his first dog and is an avid bird watcher. He's also much more
helpful around the house since we let go of the schedule to make it happen. And I'm
continually surprised by what he does know just from listening to our family
conversations, movie watching and gaming.
He's truly a great kid. I don't doubt he's learning. But the truth is, I do worry that he may
not learn some of these essentials. And I don't know how to represent his learning to our
year end evaluator given that he has nothing written to show for this year.
Any thoughts to help me?
Julie B
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________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:16:46 -0000
From: "Julie Bogart"
Subject: One follow up comment on my ten year old
In rereading my message, I just wanted to say that I haven't made artifical attempts to
teach him (like setting up times and using curricula). I've used Family Math for math
games and have invited whoever wants to play to come. Usually my other two who are
home with me are rarin' to go. My ten year old usually listens while on the computer.
Occasionally he will join us, but he then gets frustrated or bored and leaves.
And with writing, he has a bird list he wants to keep but the chore of writing prevents him
from keeping it up. Yet he has no interest in working on forming the letters or working on
it as a skill.
This is the same child who at five told me one day, "Mom, I will not be taught." And that's
been basically true. He also said he would never learn to read since he would never need
to. On his own, one year, he figure it out (he was 7). So I know he has the power to learn
when he wants to in his own time.
I'm now just concerned about showing that he is learning in a way that satisfies the state.
And, he is sometimes inclined to make self-deprecating comments that indicate to me
that he doesn't think of himself as smart of able to learn what other kids learn.
This might be too complicated for the list, but if you have any insight, I'd appreciate it.
Julie B
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:10:41 EDT
From: tuckervill2@...
Subject: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
In a message dated 7/7/2004 9:42:36 AM Central Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
And with writing, he has a bird list he wants to keep but the chore of
writing prevents him
from keeping it up. Yet he has no interest in working on forming the letters
or working on
it as a skill.
~~~
He can use the computer to write his bird lists. I like that better for
lists, anyway. Any computer at least has notepad, or, if he knows someone who
would be interested in his list, he could email them the list. It's nice to
have an intended audience when writing. Computers are better for lists
because you can reorder the list alphabetically or if you use a spreadsheet or
table, according to the date the birds were first seen or by quantity.
We use the bird guide with post-its to keep up with the birds we've seen in
the yard. He could draw a sketch of each bird he sees and put it in a file.
There are lots of way to keep up with stuff like that.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kelli Traaseth
Subject: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
Julie Bogart wrote:
***I'm now just concerned about showing that he is learning in a way that satisfies the state.***
Julie,
What state are you in and what kind of requirements do you have? That info might help me and others in making suggestions.
***Usually my other two who are
home with me are rarin' to go. My ten year old usually listens while on the computer.
Occasionally he will join us, but he then gets frustrated or bored and leaves.***
My 11 ds is the same way. Even if you aren't making artificial ways to teach, it seems like the Family Math thing strikes out with some kids. I brought that home from the library once and it did not go over well. I think to them it was still premeditated. Ya know, not just living our lives, we weren't just playing a game cuz it looks fun. We were playing Family "Math". I don't know, maybe I wasn't a good enough salelperson on that, but I do know that the kids are learning tons of math, numbers, and logical reasoning from doing what they/we like. Our conversations alone have gone over algebraic equations, adding exponential notations and fractions! And those are just off the top of my head. From what I've read it sounds like your family is a lot the same. :)
***And with writing, he has a bird list he wants to keep but the chore of writing prevents him
from keeping it up. Yet he has no interest in working on forming the letters or working on
it as a skill.***
How about working on the computer? Does he like to type? He could find the birds he likes online and print them out?
How about you writing it for him so he can at least have a start on the list. Does he like to take pictures? Would he want to make a picture book of the birds he sees? That way the interest would be documented.
Earlier you said he has memorized some poems, is he interested in writing them down? I know my son is the same way with writing. If I had to prove he was actually writing,,,,,
Maybe if you get enough other stuff documented, all the things that he is doing, the writing part won't be an issue?
***And, he is sometimes inclined to make self-deprecating comments that indicate to me
that he doesn't think of himself as smart of able to learn what other kids learn.***
As we were getting and are still getting our school thinking out our brains, my kids will sometimes make similar comments. We've discussed that people all learn in different ways and we all have different kinds of smarts. This seems to really help. My own father is the same type of learner as my son and has the same kind-of intelligence. Highly mechanical and logical and it doesn't look like they learn anything, by book standard. But they know sooooo much. Its all up there.
We sometimes have to have these kind-of pep talks after they've spent time with kids who are in school. One good thing though is that the talks are coming less and less. They are starting to come and tell me how they are dealing with the questions and doubts of others. :)
=== message truncated ===
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't know where you are located at, but we are from the Medina area. I took my daughter to Columbus to have her evaluated by an Unschooling friendly evaluator, and I HIGHLY recommend him. If you are interested, let me know.
Also, in Ohio the regs read that the child should progress according to his/her ability - NOT grade level. Be wary of using any forms the super sends you, as they generally ask for some type of info that is NOT required by state law. The form my super sent requests "grade level", which is not required. Also, they sent a letter informing me they need my "application" - which I found funny since I don't need to "apply" (which makes it sound like I need their permission) but only to "notify" of my intent to homeschool according to state code.
As far as writing goes, you may have to back WAY off on it. I can't imagine why he can't type... If he was in school and labeled as "learning disabled" they could/would make an IEP that would say he didn't have to write... So, if it's not essential for a child who has problems with learning, etc... why is it so important for one who doesn't? Even if your son did, why can't he learn additional/different methods of coping? Is the true skill that you want your child to learn WRITING or COMMUNICATING? Ever read a doctor's writing?? LOL <bg>
Alicia
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:20:25 -0000
From: "Julie Bogart" <julie@...>
Subject: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
--- In [email protected], Kelli Traaseth
<kellitraas@y...> wrote:
Hi Kelli.
>That info might help
> What state are you in and what kind of requirements do you have?
me and others in making suggestions.
Ohio. We meet with a certified teacher who looks over our work for the
year and then
certifies that we've met our goals for the year and that the child has
"progressed" one
grade level. My evaluator is very relaxed and supportive, but she does
still have to have
something to say about math and writing. :)
>> it seems like the Family Math thing strikes out with some kids. Ibrought that home
from the library once and it did not go over well. I think to them it
was still premeditated.
Ya know, not just living our lives, we weren't just playing a game
cuz it looks fun. We
were playing Family "Math".
Yeah, same for us with him. Yu-Gi-Oh worked well for a long time but he
lost interest and
when we played Monopoly the other night, it was like all that knowledge
of adding,
subtracting he had gained was gone.
>the list. Does he like
> How about you writing it for him so he can at least have a start on
to take pictures? Would he want to make a picture book of the birds he
sees? That way
the interest would be documented.
There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: kids making decisions for themselves
From: "mamaaj2000"
2. Re: Introduction/bleach question
From: "Jill Leggett"
3. older ways
From: SandraDodd@...
4. Introduction/kerosene/parenting
From: SandraDodd@...
5. Re: Re: kids making decisions for themselves
From: Michelle
6. on quoting in posts
From: SandraDodd@...
7. My ten year old
From: "Julie Bogart"
8. One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Julie Bogart"
9. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: tuckervill2@...
10. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Kelli Traaseth
11. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Elizabeth Hill
12. Re: My ten year old
From: SandraDodd@...
13. Re: Re: Introduction/bleach question
From: TreeGoddess
14. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Julie Bogart"
15. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Julie Bogart"
16. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "nellebelle"
17. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: TreeGoddess
18. Re: Re: dad shunned
From: Aimee
19. Re: My ten year old
From: "J. Stauffer"
20. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Aimee
21. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Aimee
22. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: Deb Lewis
23. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: SandraDodd@...
24. Re: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Penn Acres"
25. Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
From: "Sara"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:57:37 -0000
From: "mamaaj2000"
Subject: Re: kids making decisions for themselves
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
wrote:
> ** I don't know how you could "force" a husband to be more fully alike
> father. **
>
> My grandma used to tell her husband "Honey, Virginia would really
> to go with you on your errand to the hardware store."That tends to make my dh defensive--like he's being cornered. The
other day, I got him to laugh and then to play with ds, who was
trying so hard to get Papa to play. I leaned over and said to
dh "Pretend that his enthusiasm is infectious!"
--aj
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:29:48 -0000
From: "Jill Leggett"
Subject: Re: Introduction/bleach question
Thanks for the advice. My son is not interested enough right now to
do the research on his own. He just likes the idea of mixing
chemicals and creating explosions. I'll try to find some experiments
for him to do safely. I would like to find a demonstration like you
described.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:47:07 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: older ways
Warning that I'm going to veer away from the original topic.
<< Looking back I wonder why I had to do all that but I guess it's the
way men were taught to view their children then. "Do as I say." >>
It's still happening.
That's why it's so hard, I think, for families who are trying to be different
to just live their lives without so much side commentary about "just hit
them" kind of stuff.
-=-Sometimes I
wonder if we are making any head way....but we are; it's just
frustrating to deal with outdated, old fashioned emotional garbage. -=-
I think our kids will not fall into stuff like that. They can't "fall into
it." They didn't grow up with it! Things are changing, but it does seem
slow.
Yesterday I got an e-mail. Probably lots of other people who are listed
somewhere or other as contacts did too:
-----
Subj: Free homeschooling, child-training magzine
Date: 6, July Tuesday, 2004 2:32:50 PM
From: ngj@...
To: SandraDodd@...
Dear Sandra,
We would like to send you our free, full-color, sample /No Greater Joy/
magazine, to be given to each of person in your homeschool support
group. Hit the "Reply" button and give us the mailing address or
addresses, and the number of magazines you would like, and we will ship
them out in a few days. Our website can be viewed at www.nogreaterjoy.org.
Partners in building families,
Michael and Debi Pearl
No Greater Joy Ministries
1000 Pearl Road
Pleasantville, TN 37033
www.nogreaterjoy.org
-------
My response was:
In a message dated 7/6/04 2:32:50 PM, ngj@... writes:
<< We would like to send you our free, full-color, sample /No Greater Joy/
magazine, to be given to each of person in your homeschmagazines you would
like, and we will ship
them out in a few days. Our website can be viewed at www.nogreaterjoy.org. >>
No thank you.
I'm not running a Christian homeschooling group, nor a child abuse group.
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
--------------
It's sad that a WHOLE bunch of homeschoolers are about to get an infusion of
spanking instructions, free!!
Sandra
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:04:50 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Introduction/kerosene/parenting
-=-I have a question. My son's friend told him about an experiment
using bleach and kerosene. I told him it was too dangerous.
-=-Is this unschooling?-=-
Is telling him it's too dangerous unschooling?
It's parenting.
Is it the best parenting you could do?
I don't think so.
Neither do I think buying him some kerosene and handing him the bleach would
be good parenting.
<< Thanks for the advice. My son is not interested enough right now to
do the research on his own. >>
I don't think that's a good solution either.
If it were me, I'd ask the boy who gave him the advice what happens. If it's
a dangerous explosion or toxic gas, or if the answer is "I don't know" I
would tell him not to ever tell anyone else to mix those chemicals again, ever.
If he seemed receptive, I'd leave it at that. If he were defiant, I'd talk to
his mom.
But as to finding out what happens, I bet a quick google search would turn up
some interesting information, which you could share with your son, and all
would be happy and positive.
Making him look it up is punitive and doesn't teach joy in research.
Telling him "It's too dangerous" doesn't teach him anything except "maybe
mom's right, maybe mom's wrong." You don't want him mixing the chemicals later
to see, do you?
"Because I told you so" wouldn't be on my top-200 messages for unschooling
parents.
Now that google makes research so easy, I feel about this the same way I feel
about making a kid look a word up instead of just telling him how to spell
it, or telling him "it's in the encyclopedia" if he asks something about history
or geography.
It's here,
http://SandraDodd.com/aradicalthought
but it's short [quote to the end]:
Never tell a child "Go look it up." Parents, teachers, friends and
countrymen, how would you like it?
When a child wants to know why flowers have a scent, they want someone to say
"To attract bees" not "GO LOOK IT UP."
"Go look it up" tends to mean "I don't know" or "I know but I'm not going to
tell you." What's the advantage of that?
Either a child will opt NOT to look it up (and the trust in the parent will
erode a little) or he will, under duress, perform this task which might be
difficult for him, or might take so long that he doesn't care anymore (and the
trust in the parent will erode a little).
I'm NOT saying to discourage kids from looking things up. I never said not to
show kids how to look things up. I mean don't treat it like something parents
won't do, parents don't have to do, but that kids do, or that kids have to
do, because they are powerless kids.
Encyclopedias should be alluring, not forbidding. Dictionaries should be a
playland, not a dark, scary place you dart into for one thing and slam shut
behind you. If you believe they ARE fun, you should look things up in front of
your children, often, and with enthusiasm. That will teach them how to use
reference materials, and will make them want to do so, because they will see it as
something useful and enjoyable that adults do. If you believe dictionaries and
encyclopedias ARE dark, scary and forbidding, why on EARTH would you send your
children there?
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:59:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michelle
Subject: Re: Re: kids making decisions for themselves
I also see an innocence and willingness to "be immature" in a sweet
way. Not immature, but playful. Amazed. Not jaded. They're not on
a continuum, where they grasp the new thing and reject the old to
prove they're "old enough." It's like being a different species.
Yesterday my 6yo son and his 7yo schooled cousin were in the bathroom washing their hands. We had learned that if you sing Twinkle Little Star, and wash you hands thru the entire song, that you wash long enough to kill all the germs, and my son like to sing anyway, so he loves to do this. His cousin looked at him and told him that it was a baby song. I felt so sad for him. My son still loves to sing the same songs I sang to him as an small child when he gets into bed at night. He does not choose to do it as often as he use to, but I as still so very happy to sing to him whenever he chooses. It is so sad that school has completely driven that joy out of this child.
Michelle
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:30:02 EDT
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: on quoting in posts
Please put some kind of quotation marks on posts when you're quoting from
another post. Some people's e-mail shows bold face or different colors, but some
doesn't. Even if your quotes are in color, do something. ---- like that
maybe -----
or
+++++ front and back +++++++++
or the time-honored "real quotation marks"
I know some mailer programs dont like <> because it turns to a command
line, but find something you like, please, to make sorting who said what
easier. Thanks.
Sandra
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:09:35 -0000
From: "Julie Bogart"
Subject: My ten year old
I used to think unschooling meant unit studies and following a child's interests,
supplemented with the basics. But now that we've lived it, I've realized unschooling had
more to do with honoring the child. Certainly interests were a part of that, but if I focus on
interests, I sometimes find myself evaluating their choices instead of looking at my child -
to learn something new, important, true about him or her.
I've learned that knowing my child as he is, is more important than shaping him into
someone I think he ought to be.
And yet, I'm still nervous about things like times tables, basic math operations, and
handwriting for one of my children (10 years old). He still doesn't show interest in basic
math (even though we've done games and tricks to make it more tantalizing) and his
handwriting has deteriorated (he doesn't remember which way 'd's and 'b's go or 9s and 6s
etc.) The basics that most school teachers look for aren't there. He does read, though.
Otoh, he's memorized four poems by Robert Browning just because he likes them, he's
played hundreds of hours of Star Craft (both on his own and online), loves to be read to,
plays lacrosse, now enjoys his first dog and is an avid bird watcher. He's also much more
helpful around the house since we let go of the schedule to make it happen. And I'm
continually surprised by what he does know just from listening to our family
conversations, movie watching and gaming.
He's truly a great kid. I don't doubt he's learning. But the truth is, I do worry that he may
not learn some of these essentials. And I don't know how to represent his learning to our
year end evaluator given that he has nothing written to show for this year.
Any thoughts to help me?
Julie B
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:16:46 -0000
From: "Julie Bogart"
Subject: One follow up comment on my ten year old
In rereading my message, I just wanted to say that I haven't made artifical attempts to
teach him (like setting up times and using curricula). I've used Family Math for math
games and have invited whoever wants to play to come. Usually my other two who are
home with me are rarin' to go. My ten year old usually listens while on the computer.
Occasionally he will join us, but he then gets frustrated or bored and leaves.
And with writing, he has a bird list he wants to keep but the chore of writing prevents him
from keeping it up. Yet he has no interest in working on forming the letters or working on
it as a skill.
This is the same child who at five told me one day, "Mom, I will not be taught." And that's
been basically true. He also said he would never learn to read since he would never need
to. On his own, one year, he figure it out (he was 7). So I know he has the power to learn
when he wants to in his own time.
I'm now just concerned about showing that he is learning in a way that satisfies the state.
And, he is sometimes inclined to make self-deprecating comments that indicate to me
that he doesn't think of himself as smart of able to learn what other kids learn.
This might be too complicated for the list, but if you have any insight, I'd appreciate it.
Julie B
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:10:41 EDT
From: tuckervill2@...
Subject: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
In a message dated 7/7/2004 9:42:36 AM Central Standard Time,
julie@... writes:
And with writing, he has a bird list he wants to keep but the chore of
writing prevents him
from keeping it up. Yet he has no interest in working on forming the letters
or working on
it as a skill.
~~~
He can use the computer to write his bird lists. I like that better for
lists, anyway. Any computer at least has notepad, or, if he knows someone who
would be interested in his list, he could email them the list. It's nice to
have an intended audience when writing. Computers are better for lists
because you can reorder the list alphabetically or if you use a spreadsheet or
table, according to the date the birds were first seen or by quantity.
We use the bird guide with post-its to keep up with the birds we've seen in
the yard. He could draw a sketch of each bird he sees and put it in a file.
There are lots of way to keep up with stuff like that.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kelli Traaseth
Subject: Re: One follow up comment on my ten year old
Julie Bogart wrote:
***I'm now just concerned about showing that he is learning in a way that satisfies the state.***
Julie,
What state are you in and what kind of requirements do you have? That info might help me and others in making suggestions.
***Usually my other two who are
home with me are rarin' to go. My ten year old usually listens while on the computer.
Occasionally he will join us, but he then gets frustrated or bored and leaves.***
My 11 ds is the same way. Even if you aren't making artificial ways to teach, it seems like the Family Math thing strikes out with some kids. I brought that home from the library once and it did not go over well. I think to them it was still premeditated. Ya know, not just living our lives, we weren't just playing a game cuz it looks fun. We were playing Family "Math". I don't know, maybe I wasn't a good enough salelperson on that, but I do know that the kids are learning tons of math, numbers, and logical reasoning from doing what they/we like. Our conversations alone have gone over algebraic equations, adding exponential notations and fractions! And those are just off the top of my head. From what I've read it sounds like your family is a lot the same. :)
***And with writing, he has a bird list he wants to keep but the chore of writing prevents him
from keeping it up. Yet he has no interest in working on forming the letters or working on
it as a skill.***
How about working on the computer? Does he like to type? He could find the birds he likes online and print them out?
How about you writing it for him so he can at least have a start on the list. Does he like to take pictures? Would he want to make a picture book of the birds he sees? That way the interest would be documented.
Earlier you said he has memorized some poems, is he interested in writing them down? I know my son is the same way with writing. If I had to prove he was actually writing,,,,,
Maybe if you get enough other stuff documented, all the things that he is doing, the writing part won't be an issue?
***And, he is sometimes inclined to make self-deprecating comments that indicate to me
that he doesn't think of himself as smart of able to learn what other kids learn.***
As we were getting and are still getting our school thinking out our brains, my kids will sometimes make similar comments. We've discussed that people all learn in different ways and we all have different kinds of smarts. This seems to really help. My own father is the same type of learner as my son and has the same kind-of intelligence. Highly mechanical and logical and it doesn't look like they learn anything, by book standard. But they know sooooo much. Its all up there.
We sometimes have to have these kind-of pep talks after they've spent time with kids who are in school. One good thing though is that the talks are coming less and less. They are starting to come and tell me how they are dealing with the questions and doubts of others. :)
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Jill Leggett
Hi, Ali Kat, I'm in Ohio, too--Cutler, near Marietta.
I was also upset with the wording of the "application" from my
superintendent, so I contacted the Home School Legal Defense
Association. They sent a letter to the super, informing him that the
word "approval" implies a "discretionary" function of government
while Ohio law only permits a "ministerial" function. I felt much
better knowing I had someone to help me with this problem. If you are
a member of HSLDA, I suggest you contact them about the wording of
the letter from your super. We have to keep the supers in check, or
they'll run over us. I hate to feel intimidated.
I'm also interested in who you use to evaluate your son. I could
drive to Columbus to have my son evaluated, too. Right now I give
him the Iowa Test of Basic Skills because the teacher I took him to
be evaluated by the last time said I did not have enough work to show
his progress (some of his math is done on 2 X 4's while we construct
our home). I'm looking for an evaluator who is sympathetic to
unschooling, because I am uncomfortable testing him. It makes him
feel inferior if there are problems on the test he doesn't know how
to solve.
I was also upset with the wording of the "application" from my
superintendent, so I contacted the Home School Legal Defense
Association. They sent a letter to the super, informing him that the
word "approval" implies a "discretionary" function of government
while Ohio law only permits a "ministerial" function. I felt much
better knowing I had someone to help me with this problem. If you are
a member of HSLDA, I suggest you contact them about the wording of
the letter from your super. We have to keep the supers in check, or
they'll run over us. I hate to feel intimidated.
I'm also interested in who you use to evaluate your son. I could
drive to Columbus to have my son evaluated, too. Right now I give
him the Iowa Test of Basic Skills because the teacher I took him to
be evaluated by the last time said I did not have enough work to show
his progress (some of his math is done on 2 X 4's while we construct
our home). I'm looking for an evaluator who is sympathetic to
unschooling, because I am uncomfortable testing him. It makes him
feel inferior if there are problems on the test he doesn't know how
to solve.
Robyn Coburn
<<<<I contacted the Home School Legal Defense
Association. They sent a letter to the super, informing him that the
word "approval" implies a "discretionary" function of government
while Ohio law only permits a "ministerial" function. I felt much
better knowing I had someone to help me with this problem. >>>
Alternatively, if you want legal help from a group whose agenda is entirely
about homeschooling, and do not promote pro-spanking sites through links to
their website you could contact
http://www.nheld.com/
National Home Education Legal Defense.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Association. They sent a letter to the super, informing him that the
word "approval" implies a "discretionary" function of government
while Ohio law only permits a "ministerial" function. I felt much
better knowing I had someone to help me with this problem. >>>
Alternatively, if you want legal help from a group whose agenda is entirely
about homeschooling, and do not promote pro-spanking sites through links to
their website you could contact
http://www.nheld.com/
National Home Education Legal Defense.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 7/2/2004