Re: talking to kids about school
Lynn Allen
I'll introduce myself now after a couple of months of
lurking, because I wanted to respond to this post.
I have one 9yo son, newly withdrawn from school and
unschooling. He's gone to school off and on for the
last few years, some his choice and some mine for a
variety of reasons I may or may not be up to
discussing later. I was a radical (rabid?) unschooler
before he went to school. This list has been
fantastically helpful to me in both helping me come
back to my "roots," so to speak, and also helping me
understand and live unschooling in a much deeper, more
meaningful way than I ever could before even when I
was writing articles about unschooling and haranguing
people on a regular basis about how great unschooling
is. I'd like to thank you all for your thoughtfulness
and mindfulness, and willingness to share it with
others.
Kristi's post about talking honestly with your kids
about school really resonated with me. There's a woman
in my area, a well known unschooler with grown kids
who's written books about unschooling. She constantly
tells the story of how, when her daughter wanted to go
to school, she would sit her down at the kitchen table
and, as one poster described, not let her get up to go
to the bathroom or get a drink, basically make school
seem as miserable as possible.
It always bothered me a lot, even when I was most
opposed to kids going to school. The analogy I've come
up with is, what if your kid started asking if she
could go see a movie? Would you say, "Oh, you think
you want to see a movie, huh? Well, just sit down
there and I'll show you what a movie is like." You
stick her in a plush seat, turn off all the lights,
make her sit still and be quiet for two hours, and . .
. DON'T show her the movie. Then you say with
satisfaction . . . "And she never asked to see a movie
again."
There are a lot of really good reasons for kids not to
go to school. Resorting to an essentially dishonest
argument, tricking kids into thinking that a minor
inconvenience (which may or may not even be real -- in
my son's classroom you could go get a drink of water
or go to the bathroom any time you wanted, or carry a
water bottle if you wanted) is the sum total of what
school is about, is really doing both you and your
kids a disservice. It's just as dishonest to stress
only the negative parts of school as it is to be like
Barney and make school seem like an earthly paradise.
Why not talk honestly with your kids about school?
Talk about your own school days, what you liked, what
you didn't? Talk about why you think what you do at
home is a lot more interesting and valuable -- and at
the same time acknowledge that you understand what
kids might feel like they're missing? Try to find out
what it's really like at the school in your
neighborhood -- the routine, the atmosphere -- and
discuss what the pros and cons of going to school
might be, without any scare tactics?
And if after a thorough, honest discussion your child
still feels she wants to go to school -- well, that
tells you something, doesn't it, about your child and
her needs and desires that you didn't know before. If
you really think it will be irremediably harmful to
her, you could still choose not to let her go, and try
to meet those needs in other ways. It would probably
be easier than before since with all your honest
discussions about school you know your child better.
Or you could let her try it out, and keep
communicating honestly and unjudgmentally with her
about her experiences there, what she likes, what she
doesn't. You could support her in her decision to let
her learn how she wants, while letting her know that
she can come home any time she wants -- for a day, a
week or forever -- and you will be thrilled to have
her. Keep home a really interesting, safe, loving
place. Take her side in any conflicts she has with the
school, while keeping in mind that she may have
important relationships with adults there that she
doesn't want damaged.
School has a lot less power to hurt kids when parents
aren't on its side, when kids know they can leave
anytime, they can pick and choose which parts of it
they want to do, they can have bad feelings about
parts of it and no one will shame them for them. Then
it becomes pretty much like just another
"extracurricular" experience -- you stay around as
long as it's still valuable to you, as long as the
benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and leave when that's
no longer true.
If the goal is just to have kids say, "You're right,
Mom, school is bad," then sure, go ahead and scare
them into it. If the goal is actually to find out
something about your kids and what they want, I think
you have to be more honest.
Lynn
kristi wrote:
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lurking, because I wanted to respond to this post.
I have one 9yo son, newly withdrawn from school and
unschooling. He's gone to school off and on for the
last few years, some his choice and some mine for a
variety of reasons I may or may not be up to
discussing later. I was a radical (rabid?) unschooler
before he went to school. This list has been
fantastically helpful to me in both helping me come
back to my "roots," so to speak, and also helping me
understand and live unschooling in a much deeper, more
meaningful way than I ever could before even when I
was writing articles about unschooling and haranguing
people on a regular basis about how great unschooling
is. I'd like to thank you all for your thoughtfulness
and mindfulness, and willingness to share it with
others.
Kristi's post about talking honestly with your kids
about school really resonated with me. There's a woman
in my area, a well known unschooler with grown kids
who's written books about unschooling. She constantly
tells the story of how, when her daughter wanted to go
to school, she would sit her down at the kitchen table
and, as one poster described, not let her get up to go
to the bathroom or get a drink, basically make school
seem as miserable as possible.
It always bothered me a lot, even when I was most
opposed to kids going to school. The analogy I've come
up with is, what if your kid started asking if she
could go see a movie? Would you say, "Oh, you think
you want to see a movie, huh? Well, just sit down
there and I'll show you what a movie is like." You
stick her in a plush seat, turn off all the lights,
make her sit still and be quiet for two hours, and . .
. DON'T show her the movie. Then you say with
satisfaction . . . "And she never asked to see a movie
again."
There are a lot of really good reasons for kids not to
go to school. Resorting to an essentially dishonest
argument, tricking kids into thinking that a minor
inconvenience (which may or may not even be real -- in
my son's classroom you could go get a drink of water
or go to the bathroom any time you wanted, or carry a
water bottle if you wanted) is the sum total of what
school is about, is really doing both you and your
kids a disservice. It's just as dishonest to stress
only the negative parts of school as it is to be like
Barney and make school seem like an earthly paradise.
Why not talk honestly with your kids about school?
Talk about your own school days, what you liked, what
you didn't? Talk about why you think what you do at
home is a lot more interesting and valuable -- and at
the same time acknowledge that you understand what
kids might feel like they're missing? Try to find out
what it's really like at the school in your
neighborhood -- the routine, the atmosphere -- and
discuss what the pros and cons of going to school
might be, without any scare tactics?
And if after a thorough, honest discussion your child
still feels she wants to go to school -- well, that
tells you something, doesn't it, about your child and
her needs and desires that you didn't know before. If
you really think it will be irremediably harmful to
her, you could still choose not to let her go, and try
to meet those needs in other ways. It would probably
be easier than before since with all your honest
discussions about school you know your child better.
Or you could let her try it out, and keep
communicating honestly and unjudgmentally with her
about her experiences there, what she likes, what she
doesn't. You could support her in her decision to let
her learn how she wants, while letting her know that
she can come home any time she wants -- for a day, a
week or forever -- and you will be thrilled to have
her. Keep home a really interesting, safe, loving
place. Take her side in any conflicts she has with the
school, while keeping in mind that she may have
important relationships with adults there that she
doesn't want damaged.
School has a lot less power to hurt kids when parents
aren't on its side, when kids know they can leave
anytime, they can pick and choose which parts of it
they want to do, they can have bad feelings about
parts of it and no one will shame them for them. Then
it becomes pretty much like just another
"extracurricular" experience -- you stay around as
long as it's still valuable to you, as long as the
benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and leave when that's
no longer true.
If the goal is just to have kids say, "You're right,
Mom, school is bad," then sure, go ahead and scare
them into it. If the goal is actually to find out
something about your kids and what they want, I think
you have to be more honest.
Lynn
kristi wrote:
> to sit her at theShe might like school enough that waiting
> table and say "This is what school is like ... oh
> you don't like it?
> OK" in order to get her to say no seems like lying,
> because in truth,
> she might find the negative things coupled with the
> positives not to
> matter as much.
> for the bathroomanother poster wrote:
> isn't so bad.
> if I'm brainwashing
> and manipulating her, IMO, I'm not doing her any
> better service than
> the schools I'm keeping her from.
> > When my third son wanted to go to school I told__________________________________
> him we'd "do school"
> at home
> > first to see if it was what he really wanted.
> > I got out some workbooks and had him sit at the
> table. He started to
> get up
> > and I asked what he was doing and he said he
> needed a drink. I told
> him he
> > would have to wait three more hours, until lunch.
> So he sat back
> down. Then he
> > started to get up again and I asked what he was
> doing. He said he
> had to go to
> > the bathroom. I told him he'd have to sit down and
> wait his turn,
> because there
> > was already one child in the bathroom. This lasted
> about 15 min. and
> no one
> > has ever asked to go to school again.
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In a message dated 6/9/04 9:43:17 AM, nnylnell@... writes:
<< It's just as dishonest to stress
only the negative parts of school as it is to be like
Barney and make school seem like an earthly paradise.
When Holly wanted to "do school" that long ago season, I would just say "If
you were in school you'd have to do this for 45 minutes, and wait until the
others finished if you finished early." She'd just laugh and say she was tired
of it now and take off. I'd certainly let her go, because I wanted to be a
teacher WAY less than she wanted to be a student! <bwg>
I can't say I'm not relieved, though, every time she decides not to go to
school. But she is more curious than the other kids, and partly I think because
she's a girl and has no sister and is the youngest and has the same curiosity
I had (have) about who's doing what and why and what they think about it.
She might yet end up in school at some point, and if so she'll probably do a
good job of it. She would probably also get harder and snappy (in a bad way)
and preoccupied with school stuff and impatient with my lack of
attention/dedication to schoolishness. That's my fear, anyway. One of them. <g>
Sandra
<< It's just as dishonest to stress
only the negative parts of school as it is to be like
Barney and make school seem like an earthly paradise.
>>Good point. I agree.
When Holly wanted to "do school" that long ago season, I would just say "If
you were in school you'd have to do this for 45 minutes, and wait until the
others finished if you finished early." She'd just laugh and say she was tired
of it now and take off. I'd certainly let her go, because I wanted to be a
teacher WAY less than she wanted to be a student! <bwg>
I can't say I'm not relieved, though, every time she decides not to go to
school. But she is more curious than the other kids, and partly I think because
she's a girl and has no sister and is the youngest and has the same curiosity
I had (have) about who's doing what and why and what they think about it.
She might yet end up in school at some point, and if so she'll probably do a
good job of it. She would probably also get harder and snappy (in a bad way)
and preoccupied with school stuff and impatient with my lack of
attention/dedication to schoolishness. That's my fear, anyway. One of them. <g>
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/9/2004 11:47:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
nnylnell@... writes:
intermittent attendance and then you become somewhat of a target for people
getting into your business. When you start off you may feel as though you're
doing a good thing by encouraging the child's choice. But if your child decided
to stop and then go or whatever, the school will try to get into your
business and go as far as involving Social Services, etc. I agree with the talking
it through honestly because scare tactics are hurtful, harmful, and highly
dishonest.
If a child really wants to take classes, I'd try for community center classes
that you can choose together.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nnylnell@... writes:
> You could support her in her decision to letUnfortunately a lot of school districts and schools won't allow this kind of
> her learn how she wants, while letting her know that
> she can come home any time she wants -- for a day, a
> week or forever
intermittent attendance and then you become somewhat of a target for people
getting into your business. When you start off you may feel as though you're
doing a good thing by encouraging the child's choice. But if your child decided
to stop and then go or whatever, the school will try to get into your
business and go as far as involving Social Services, etc. I agree with the talking
it through honestly because scare tactics are hurtful, harmful, and highly
dishonest.
If a child really wants to take classes, I'd try for community center classes
that you can choose together.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
Unfortunately a lot of school districts and schools won't allow this kind of intermittent attendance and then you become somewhat of a target for people getting into your business. When you start off you may feel as though you're doing a good thing by encouraging the child's choice. But if your child decided to stop and then go or whatever, the school will try to get into your business and go as far as involving Social Services, etc.
***
I can see this being a problem. Locally -- well, actually state-wide -- a big fuss is being made over school truancy. There are truancy police in the Malls, parents have been hauled into truancy court because a genuinely ill child missed too much school, and so on. Already, it's been suggested that people could call themselves homeschoolers just to cover up their negligence in allowing their kids to be truant. I'm concerned that if we were to start drifting in and out of the system, we'd been seen as negligent parents who simply want to 'excuse' the kid's truancy and lax attendance.
Besides that, if your kid's not there on the day they dole out money (day 40, is it?) the school district doesn't really want them showing up later. As if we don't pay the same taxes as all the parents whose kids are in school.
Syl
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***
I can see this being a problem. Locally -- well, actually state-wide -- a big fuss is being made over school truancy. There are truancy police in the Malls, parents have been hauled into truancy court because a genuinely ill child missed too much school, and so on. Already, it's been suggested that people could call themselves homeschoolers just to cover up their negligence in allowing their kids to be truant. I'm concerned that if we were to start drifting in and out of the system, we'd been seen as negligent parents who simply want to 'excuse' the kid's truancy and lax attendance.
Besides that, if your kid's not there on the day they dole out money (day 40, is it?) the school district doesn't really want them showing up later. As if we don't pay the same taxes as all the parents whose kids are in school.
Syl
---------------------------------
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In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:15:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
particpate in extracurricular activities and use the libraries, etc. Not that I
care to. But we still pay taxes. Some states allow full access to the
schools and have no problems with it. My son is choosing to stay in Kindergarten
right now until the end, on the 18th. He has it circled in RED so he knows
when it's coming, he has enjoyed it but we have talked about next year being
full-day and that he'll eat there and he knew right away that he didn't want to go
back. They have started training the K's for 1st grade and he doesn't like
it one bit. Which is a major relief to me. Anyway, his school is very strict
on attendence and being tardy is almost as bad. I know a friend of mine who
lives a few hours from us, her child (9) was playing outside and because he was
not on their property, he was considered truant and they have had to deal
with Social Services ever since and that was 18 months ago. I know when mine
started Kindergarten this year that I had made the worst mistake of my life but I
had chickened out on being responsible for his future, I got back on track
but by then he was choosing to stay so we have hung tough, but it is amazingly
hard. I felt so exposed when they sent home papers asking us our marital
status, social security numbers, birth records, incomes, etc., etc. All for their
taxes. YUCK!!!
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sylgt04@... writes:
> Besides that, if your kid's not there on the day they dole out money (dayThat's a big sore spot with us. We are in VA and the state says we cannot
> 40, is it?) the school district doesn't really want them showing up later. As
> if we don't pay the same taxes as all the parents whose kids are in school.
>
>
particpate in extracurricular activities and use the libraries, etc. Not that I
care to. But we still pay taxes. Some states allow full access to the
schools and have no problems with it. My son is choosing to stay in Kindergarten
right now until the end, on the 18th. He has it circled in RED so he knows
when it's coming, he has enjoyed it but we have talked about next year being
full-day and that he'll eat there and he knew right away that he didn't want to go
back. They have started training the K's for 1st grade and he doesn't like
it one bit. Which is a major relief to me. Anyway, his school is very strict
on attendence and being tardy is almost as bad. I know a friend of mine who
lives a few hours from us, her child (9) was playing outside and because he was
not on their property, he was considered truant and they have had to deal
with Social Services ever since and that was 18 months ago. I know when mine
started Kindergarten this year that I had made the worst mistake of my life but I
had chickened out on being responsible for his future, I got back on track
but by then he was choosing to stay so we have hung tough, but it is amazingly
hard. I felt so exposed when they sent home papers asking us our marital
status, social security numbers, birth records, incomes, etc., etc. All for their
taxes. YUCK!!!
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rebeca Zavaleta
From: Lynn Allen <nnylnell@...>
Subject: Re: talking to kids about school
Lynn wrote:
"You could support her in her decision to let
her learn how she wants, while letting her know that
she can come home any time she wants -- for a day, a
week or forever -- and you will be thrilled to have
her. Keep home a really interesting, safe, loving
place. Take her side in any conflicts she has with the
school, while keeping in mind that she may have
important relationships with adults there that she
doesn't want damaged.
That is such a loving, sweet take on public or private school.
Unfortunately, I feel it is a bit idyllic. A child cannot go home whenever
he or she wants. Even when my nephew was having asthama and wanted the
school to call his mom, the school 'assessed the situation and decided the
call was unwarranted."
When your children are in public school (2 of my kids have been), the parent
looses the ability to parent the child while the child is on the school
premises. Sometimes depending on the teacher there is collaboration, but
most often the rules, attendance requirements (a tardy officer from the
state may visit your home), discipline (you missed the work while you were
out yesterday, so no recess for you) are in motion whether you as a parent
are aware of it or not.
My view is that if you are uncoiling, then do it. That encompasses a
certain "lifestyle" in which you support your children in perusing their
goals. If your children are in public school, as a parent you must do the
same; make sure they are there on time, have money or a sack lunch ready,
help them have a place for homework (20 min. per grade, excluding spelling
practice and extra projects) and give them the support to finish projects on
time, etc... The child will suffer at public school if the parent is not
involved. For unschooling families, the involvement may be too intrusive.
My kids do NOT want to go back to public school. They experienced it. I do
agree with you that for children who want to experience school, the parent
should support the child's decision. But be aware: the decision has 'rules'
attached to it that may affect the parent's role.
Rebeca Z.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Subject: Re: talking to kids about school
Lynn wrote:
"You could support her in her decision to let
her learn how she wants, while letting her know that
she can come home any time she wants -- for a day, a
week or forever -- and you will be thrilled to have
her. Keep home a really interesting, safe, loving
place. Take her side in any conflicts she has with the
school, while keeping in mind that she may have
important relationships with adults there that she
doesn't want damaged.
That is such a loving, sweet take on public or private school.
Unfortunately, I feel it is a bit idyllic. A child cannot go home whenever
he or she wants. Even when my nephew was having asthama and wanted the
school to call his mom, the school 'assessed the situation and decided the
call was unwarranted."
When your children are in public school (2 of my kids have been), the parent
looses the ability to parent the child while the child is on the school
premises. Sometimes depending on the teacher there is collaboration, but
most often the rules, attendance requirements (a tardy officer from the
state may visit your home), discipline (you missed the work while you were
out yesterday, so no recess for you) are in motion whether you as a parent
are aware of it or not.
My view is that if you are uncoiling, then do it. That encompasses a
certain "lifestyle" in which you support your children in perusing their
goals. If your children are in public school, as a parent you must do the
same; make sure they are there on time, have money or a sack lunch ready,
help them have a place for homework (20 min. per grade, excluding spelling
practice and extra projects) and give them the support to finish projects on
time, etc... The child will suffer at public school if the parent is not
involved. For unschooling families, the involvement may be too intrusive.
My kids do NOT want to go back to public school. They experienced it. I do
agree with you that for children who want to experience school, the parent
should support the child's decision. But be aware: the decision has 'rules'
attached to it that may affect the parent's role.
Rebeca Z.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/9/04 11:35:26 AM, b229d655@... writes:
<< We are in VA and the state says we cannot
particpate in extracurricular activities and use the libraries, etc. Not
that I
care to. But we still pay taxes. >>
Even people without children pay taxes.
It's not who pays, it's how it's distributed that should be revamped to make
things more fair for everyone (and to give schools more funding even though
homeschoolers aren't there).
If schools got funding by the tax base or population base instead of by
enrollment, they would be GLAD to have fewer students and the same amount of money
as if they had lots. That would be the greatest boon to unschooling of all,
to give the schools ALL POSSIBLE FUNDS and let them have a smaller group to
spend them on. We'd still be out, but they wouldn't be wingeing about it.
Sandra
<< We are in VA and the state says we cannot
particpate in extracurricular activities and use the libraries, etc. Not
that I
care to. But we still pay taxes. >>
Even people without children pay taxes.
It's not who pays, it's how it's distributed that should be revamped to make
things more fair for everyone (and to give schools more funding even though
homeschoolers aren't there).
If schools got funding by the tax base or population base instead of by
enrollment, they would be GLAD to have fewer students and the same amount of money
as if they had lots. That would be the greatest boon to unschooling of all,
to give the schools ALL POSSIBLE FUNDS and let them have a smaller group to
spend them on. We'd still be out, but they wouldn't be wingeing about it.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/10/2004 11:10:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
etc.
I'm not real clear on the distribution of funds but I know that our schools
lose a major chunk on the food side. USDA funds are cut per kid that does not
register for school. I'm probably not explaining that right but a friend of
mine in the superintendents' office said that some districts get really sore
when they get more notices of intent because the budget is cut. If it's gonna
happen, they hope it will happen during the year and not before because then
they already have the funds.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Even people without children pay taxes.So true. We all pay taxes for stuff we may or may not use. Parks, schools,
etc.
I'm not real clear on the distribution of funds but I know that our schools
lose a major chunk on the food side. USDA funds are cut per kid that does not
register for school. I'm probably not explaining that right but a friend of
mine in the superintendents' office said that some districts get really sore
when they get more notices of intent because the budget is cut. If it's gonna
happen, they hope it will happen during the year and not before because then
they already have the funds.
Pamela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]