Marjorie Kirk

Below are several quotes from Sandra in response to a poster who was
concerned about her son. With my son I tried all of the things suggested by
her and others on the list; not stressing out, letting him develop at his
own pace, not pushing things he couldn't do well and helping him pursue
things he's interested in. I thought things would just fall into place as
he got older, but they haven't. He's almost 12 and is struggling socially
(can't seem to read and interpret non-verbal cues), physically (won't even
attempt most physically challenging activities because he fears failure),
emotionally (all the frustration he feels from trying so hard and not seeing
the results he hopes for causes him to explode or lash out at times) and
academically (this one isn't as bad as the others because we unschool and he
doesn't HAVE to do things he doesn't want to, but it still frustrates him
because he can barely write).



I would really appreciate some words of wisdom on the following points:
****************************************************************************
***************
Find him things to do that don't require that right now. Make his
sandwiches for him. Let him pick a new pair of scissors if maybe the ones
he has are too big, or too cheap, or something.
****************************************************************************
***************
What do you do when he's nearly a teenager, still struggling with these
things, and embarrassed when he's with friends and you can't help him?




****************************************************************************
***********
Don't ask him to write. He's not ready.
****************************************************************************
***********
Again, what if he's still not ready? My son is really excited about going
to Camp Invention, but worried about the small amount of writing required
during the projects.




****************************************************************************
*********
Remind him (in private) of things he does well that his brother doesn't.
Remind his brother in private NOT to razz him or brag, but to just be
patient and his older brother will be able to do it too.
****************************************************************************
********
My son's sibling know this, I just can't seem to get the message across to
the rest of the world! And what if you are patient, but they still aren't
"able to do it too"?




****************************************************************************
**********************
He's on his own track. You just need to maintain that track, and give him
lots of things to see, hear, taste, think about...
****************************************************************************
***********************
What if that track involves a lot of pain that could be lessened by
understanding and helping?



****************************************************************************
************************
You think he's got some serious lacks and flaws. You're taking him to a
professional to confirm your concerns.
****************************************************************************
*************************
You can look at that another way. Maybe she's not seeing lacks and flaws,
maybe it's roadblocks that could be removed with the proper help.



I'm not a proponent of testing and labeling kids, but I am in favor of doing
whatever I can to help my kids. If understanding how my son's brain may
work differently than mine can help him I'm willing to do it.

Marjorie

Marjorie Kirk

-----Original Message-----
From: Marjorie Kirk [mailto:mkirk@...]
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 9:46 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] dyslexic?

Below are several quotes from Sandra in response to a poster who was
concerned about her son. With my son I tried all of the things suggested by
her and others on the list; not stressing out, letting him develop at his
own pace, not pushing things he couldn't do well and helping him pursue
things he's interested in. I thought things would just fall into place as
he got older, but they haven't. He's almost 12 and is struggling socially
(can't seem to read and interpret non-verbal cues), physically (won't even
attempt most physically challenging activities because he fears failure),
emotionally (all the frustration he feels from trying so hard and not seeing
the results he hopes for causes him to explode or lash out at times) and
academically (this one isn't as bad as the others because we unschool and he
doesn't HAVE to do things he doesn't want to, but it still frustrates him
because he can barely write).



I would really appreciate some words of wisdom on the following points:
****************************************************************************
***************
Find him things to do that don't require that right now. Make his
sandwiches for him. Let him pick a new pair of scissors if maybe the ones
he has are too big, or too cheap, or something.
****************************************************************************
***************
What do you do when he's nearly a teenager, still struggling with these
things, and embarrassed when he's with friends and you can't help him?




****************************************************************************
***********
Don't ask him to write. He's not ready.
****************************************************************************
***********
Again, what if he's still not ready? My son is really excited about going
to Camp Invention, but worried about the small amount of writing required
during the projects.




****************************************************************************
*********
Remind him (in private) of things he does well that his brother doesn't.
Remind his brother in private NOT to razz him or brag, but to just be
patient and his older brother will be able to do it too.
****************************************************************************
********
My son's sibling know this, I just can't seem to get the message across to
the rest of the world! And what if you are patient, but they still aren't
"able to do it too"?




****************************************************************************
**********************
He's on his own track. You just need to maintain that track, and give him
lots of things to see, hear, taste, think about...
****************************************************************************
***********************
What if that track involves a lot of pain that could be lessened by
understanding and helping?



****************************************************************************
************************
You think he's got some serious lacks and flaws. You're taking him to a
professional to confirm your concerns.
****************************************************************************
*************************
You can look at that another way. Maybe she's not seeing lacks and flaws,
maybe it's roadblocks that could be removed with the proper help.



I'm not a proponent of testing and labeling kids, but I am in favor of doing
whatever I can to help my kids. If understanding how my son's brain may
work differently than mine can help him I'm willing to do it.

Marjorie

Marjorie Kirk

Sorry to send that post twice. I think my computer has the hiccups!

Marjorie

Cally Brown

Marjorie Kirk wrote:

> I thought things would just fall into place as
>he got older, but they haven't. He's almost 12 and is struggling socially
>(can't seem to read and interpret non-verbal cues), physically (won't even
>attempt most physically challenging activities because he fears failure),
>emotionally (all the frustration he feels from trying so hard and not seeing
>the results he hopes for causes him to explode or lash out at times) and
>academically (this one isn't as bad as the others because we unschool and he
>doesn't HAVE to do things he doesn't want to, but it still frustrates him
>because he can barely write).
>
Three of my four sons were late readers. I have never had them
assessed, as I don't like assessment unless there is something that can
be done (e.g.. is this arm broken or dislocated). My #3 son definitely
had visual problems (e.g.. couldn't put his finger on a red word written
on white paper), and other signs that some degree of 'dyslexia' was
involved.

Over the summer when he was 12 1/2yo he learned to read. I don't know
exactly when, haven't a clue how, but his main reading was National
Geographic. This is significant for two reasons. First, I had always
assumed he would read fiction like the rest of us. He doesn't. He is 17
now and has never read a whole fiction book. Secondly, Lots of bits in
Nat. Geo. are written over coloured pictures. As he began to use the
computer more, he would show me things he had written in Word. I would
have to change the colours before I could read - he used colour schemes
like navy blue writing on dark brown background. His spelling was
awful. It wasn't even phonetic, it was pretty damn random, and where
words were recognisable they were full of reversals etc.

As I said, he's 17 now, and can read anything HE wants to. He can write
in black and white. His spelling has improved hugely - largely through
chatting on-line using MSM and message boards.

He is a socially oriented kid. He's articulate and funny and nice.

He has nearly finished (just 4 weeks to go) a computer course about 2
years 'ahead' of where he would be if he was in school - and helped the
tutor with some of the teaching in areas the tutor wasn't confident in.

He is a great artist.

He has never been overly physically confident, and was too scared to go
on a ferris wheel when he was 14 - but in January of this year bungy
jumped off The Ledge in Queenstown. (if you don't know what bungy
jumping is, check out http://www.ajhackett.com )

He's 17. In many ways he's not the same person as he was when he was
12, but looking back I can see that, in fact, it was all there waiting
to develop.

He's been driving me crazy lately - the combination of a sleep-deprived,
hot-flushing menopausal country living mother and a 17yo socially active
teenage boy is not always easy. Thank you for reminding me what a great
kid he is - and how wonderfully he has grown since he was a quiet
non-reading, non-writing, physically nervous12yo kid.

Breathe and remember, 'older' is just a point of view. I have 4 boys
aged 23, 20, 17 and 14. Twelve is just a babe to me! And I can assure
you that there is a lot of growing, developing, and learning done while
living between 12 and 23 - and beyond.

Cally

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/22/2004 11:11:44 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:
the combination of a sleep-deprived,
hot-flushing menopausal country living mother and a 17yo socially active
teenage boy is not always easy
==================

Amen.
(though I don't live in the country, quite; the suburbs of the big city of
Albuquerque)


If people's kids have real problems and they can find professionals who will
do more than just say "put him in school," wonderful. For every family that
does that, there will be dozens who are convinced to go to experts when there
weren't problems.

For people whose older kids are not doing well socially or with handwriting
or reading, before being too cranky at the ideas of unschoolers' free advice,
please consider whether the kids would have been better off had they gone to
school. If so, they could've gone; might still can. Schools are full of
remedial classes and special ed experts. If not, what were your best options?

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/22/04 7:25:47 PM, mkirk@... writes:

<< What do you do when he's nearly a teenager, still struggling with these
things, and embarrassed when he's with friends and you can't help him? >>

Eleven isn't nearly a teenager. It's as close to nine as thirteen.

-=-With my son I tried all of the things suggested by
her and others on the list; not stressing out, letting him develop at his
own pace, not pushing things he couldn't do well and helping him pursue
things he's interested in. I thought things would just fall into place as
he got older, but they haven't. He's almost 12 and is struggling socially
(can't seem to read and interpret non-verbal cues), physically (won't even
attempt most physically challenging activities because he fears failure),
emotionally (all the frustration he feels from trying so hard and not seeing
the results he hopes for causes him to explode or lash out at times) and
academically (this one isn't as bad as the others because we unschool and he
doesn't HAVE to do things he doesn't want to, but it still frustrates him
because he can barely write).-=-


-=-He's almost 12 and is struggling socially
(can't seem to read and interpret non-verbal cues), -=-

I think half the world is that way. School wouldn't have helped. There is
no "schooling" (in the school-at-home way) for that. There's only talking
with him, advising him on how to get along better in particular situations, etc.

If it's so far as something like Aspergers syndrome you could find websites
or discussion lists of families involved with that and see if they have good,
useful tools. If it's not that serious, helping him gain tools he can use in
social situations is something people on this list could help with. Even kids
with social facility need help and suggestions when situations get tricky.
I've advised Kirby to tone down his social ease sometimes to give others a
chance to shine.


-=-letting him develop at his own pace-=-

How is that bad advice?
Can anyone make someone develop at another pace?
They can try, but it often results in shut-down or side damage.

-=-What do you do when he's nearly a teenager, still struggling with these
things, and embarrassed when he's with friends and you can't help him?-=-

What are our options? Advising school? Live-in mental therapy?
Some families use punishments. I doubt that's the advice you want.

-=Again, what if he's still not ready? My son is really excited about going
to Camp Invention, but worried about the small amount of writing required
during the projects.-=-

When Holly was in a summer dance program, I told the teacher she couldn't
read so please not to ask her to read aloud in front of other kids. I asked her
to tell us what book they were going to use (they were making a stage
presentation of a book) so we could get a copy and Holly could learn it. We did that.
When the presentation came at the end of the week, Holly knew all the parts
and some kids didn't even know their own four-line verse.

You could tell the counsellors he's having a hard time with writing and ask
them to help him, not to embarrass him.

Kirby stalled off taking driver's ed for a few months in part because he was
afraid he wouldn't be able to take notes well enough. He got a 98 in the
class when he finally took it. Those who COULD write fast had no idea what was
important to write down, or writing it down didn't help them, or they just
didn't bother or something.

-=-My son's sibling know this, I just can't seem to get the message across to
the rest of the world! And what if you are patient, but they still aren't
"able to do it too"?-=-

If you're patient and you're being encouraging and being as helpful as you
can be and that's not helping and you're not willing to wait anymore, is school
one of your options? School will always take kids. I'm not recommending it.
I'm trying to poke to see what you want in the way of feedback.

-=- He's on his own track. You just need to maintain that track, and give
him
lots of things to see, hear, taste, think about...
****************************************************************************
***********************
What if that track involves a lot of pain that could be lessened by
understanding and helping?-=-
---------------------------------------

Where did "maintain that track" ever not include understanding and helping?
When and where have people on this list ever advised NOT understanding and
helping (and stayed on the list? I do remember one saying that suggesting
things for your kids to do was interfering, but she didn't stay) ?


-=-You think he's got some serious lacks and flaws. You're taking him to a
professional to confirm your concerns.
****************************************************************************
*************************
You can look at that another way. Maybe she's not seeing lacks and flaws,
maybe it's roadblocks that could be removed with the proper help.-=-

That's a possibility, but it's not a probability.
If we treat people's concerns with panic and advice to run away from unsc
hooling because it's a huge dangerous risk and the thing to do is to run your kid
by and through half a dozen tests and measures to see if he's going to stay on
track, or whatever, then why would this discussion even exist? If
unschooling isn't worth examining or doing, we can all put our kids in school.

Unschooling isn't going to "work" well or the same for everyone, but that
doesn't mean nobody can or should pursue it.

Sandra

the_clevengers

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> -=-He's almost 12 and is struggling socially
> (can't seem to read and interpret non-verbal cues), -=-
>
> I think half the world is that way. School wouldn't have helped.
There is
> no "schooling" (in the school-at-home way) for that. There's only
talking
> with him, advising him on how to get along better in particular
situations, etc.
>
> If it's so far as something like Aspergers syndrome you could find
websites
> or discussion lists of families involved with that and see if they
have good,
> useful tools.

I know one mom whose son has been DX'd with Aspergers who sits down
and watches soap operas with her son, with the sound low or off.
Because soap operas have very exaggerated facial and physical
emotional reactions, the mom and son discuss what each person in the
soap opera might be feeling based on their non-verbal clues. This
struck me as a pretty ingenious and fun way to work on this issue
together, and help her son through something that comes more
naturally to most people.

Also, some parents I know have given Stanley Greenspan's book "The
Child With Special Needs: Encouraging Intellectual and Emotional
Growth" really good reviews. Greenspan has gone against a large
portion of the medical and therapeutical establishment in maintaining
that parents can provide a huge role in helping kids. As far as I can
tell (i haven't read this book), he emphasizes getting down with your
kids, following their lead, and building on their own interests. He
calls this method "Floortime" and it is the subject of huge debate in
the medical/psychological establishment. I have no idea how
schoolish/not schoolish his ideas are in general, but his book might
provide some helpful things that a parent could try with their child
who wants to change their social interactions.


Blue Skies,
-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/23/04 1:46:42 PM, tri_mom@... writes:

<< As far as I can

tell (i haven't read this book), he emphasizes getting down with your

kids, following their lead, and building on their own interests. >>

Sounds like unschooling.
Sounds like exactly the kind of advice that was being critized the past two
days.

Sandra

Marjorie Kirk

The post below is a lot of back and forth about the dyslexic? thread that I
don't have the time and energy to counter point by point. I think there is
a basic point here that we agree on but seem to be arguing about. I believe
that unschooling is the best thing for my son, I have NO plans to consider
putting him in school. I'm not saying "There's a problem, so I better put
him in school"! What I was saying is that although I am letting him develop
at his own pace and trying to help him with things he finds difficult, I
think sometimes it's helpful to get outside help. I want to understand
what's going on so that I can help him, not to label him for school.

One thing Sandra said was: If it's so far as something like Aspersers
syndrome you could find websites or discussion lists of families involved
with that and see if they have good, useful tools. That's what I suggested
to the original poster, some websites to check out to see if they would be
helpful. But many people just said "Wait, and he'll be fine". That may or
may not be. But what if you see problems, but aren't really sure exactly
what they are? That's where I think an expert opinion could be useful.



-=-You think he's got some serious lacks and flaws. You're taking him to a
professional to confirm your concerns.
****************************************************************************
*************************
You can look at that another way. Maybe she's not seeing lacks and flaws,
maybe it's roadblocks that could be removed with the proper help.-=-


That's a possibility, but it's not a probability.
If we treat people's concerns with panic and advice to run away from
unschooling because it's a huge dangerous risk and the thing to do is to run
your kid by and through half a dozen tests and measures to see if he's going
to stay on
track, or whatever, then why would this discussion even exist? If
unschooling isn't worth examining or doing, we can all put our kids in
school.


No one has said ANYTHING about panicking, or running away from unschooling.
I said that testing or evaluations COULD help to identify the roadblocks
that the child and parent could, together, work on removing.

Marjorie














In a message dated 5/22/04 7:25:47 PM, mkirk@... writes:

<< What do you do when he's nearly a teenager, still struggling with these
things, and embarrassed when he's with friends and you can't help him? >>

Eleven isn't nearly a teenager. It's as close to nine as thirteen.

-=-With my son I tried all of the things suggested by her and others on the
list; not stressing out, letting him develop at his own pace, not pushing
things he couldn't do well and helping him pursue things he's interested in.
I thought things would just fall into place as he got older, but they
haven't. He's almost 12 and is struggling socially (can't seem to read and
interpret non-verbal cues), physically (won't even attempt most physically
challenging activities because he fears failure), emotionally (all the
frustration he feels from trying so hard and not seeing the results he hopes
for causes him to explode or lash out at times) and academically (this one
isn't as bad as the others because we unschool and he doesn't HAVE to do
things he doesn't want to, but it still frustrates him because he can barely
write).-=-


-=-He's almost 12 and is struggling socially (can't seem to read and
interpret non-verbal cues), -=-

I think half the world is that way. School wouldn't have helped. There is
no "schooling" (in the school-at-home way) for that. There's only talking
with him, advising him on how to get along better in particular situations,
etc.

If it's so far as something like Aspergers syndrome you could find websites
or discussion lists of families involved with that and see if they have
good, useful tools. If it's not that serious, helping him gain tools he can
use in social situations is something people on this list could help with.
Even kids with social facility need help and suggestions when situations get
tricky.
I've advised Kirby to tone down his social ease sometimes to give others a
chance to shine.


-=-letting him develop at his own pace-=-

How is that bad advice?
Can anyone make someone develop at another pace?
They can try, but it often results in shut-down or side damage.

-=-What do you do when he's nearly a teenager, still struggling with these
things, and embarrassed when he's with friends and you can't help him?-=-

What are our options? Advising school? Live-in mental therapy?
Some families use punishments. I doubt that's the advice you want.

-=Again, what if he's still not ready? My son is really excited about going
to Camp Invention, but worried about the small amount of writing required
during the projects.-=-

When Holly was in a summer dance program, I told the teacher she couldn't
read so please not to ask her to read aloud in front of other kids. I asked
her to tell us what book they were going to use (they were making a stage
presentation of a book) so we could get a copy and Holly could learn it. We
did that.
When the presentation came at the end of the week, Holly knew all the parts
and some kids didn't even know their own four-line verse.

You could tell the counsellors he's having a hard time with writing and ask
them to help him, not to embarrass him.

Kirby stalled off taking driver's ed for a few months in part because he was
afraid he wouldn't be able to take notes well enough. He got a 98 in the
class when he finally took it. Those who COULD write fast had no idea what
was important to write down, or writing it down didn't help them, or they
just didn't bother or something.

-=-My son's sibling know this, I just can't seem to get the message across
to the rest of the world! And what if you are patient, but they still
aren't "able to do it too"?-=-

If you're patient and you're being encouraging and being as helpful as you
can be and that's not helping and you're not willing to wait anymore, is
school one of your options? School will always take kids. I'm not
recommending it.
I'm trying to poke to see what you want in the way of feedback.

-=- He's on his own track. You just need to maintain that track, and give
him lots of things to see, hear, taste, think about...
****************************************************************************
***********************
What if that track involves a lot of pain that could be lessened by
understanding and helping?-=-
---------------------------------------

Where did "maintain that track" ever not include understanding and helping?
When and where have people on this list ever advised NOT understanding and
helping (and stayed on the list? I do remember one saying that suggesting
things for your kids to do was interfering, but she didn't stay) ?


-=-You think he's got some serious lacks and flaws. You're taking him to a
professional to confirm your concerns.
****************************************************************************
*************************
You can look at that another way. Maybe she's not seeing lacks and flaws,
maybe it's roadblocks that could be removed with the proper help.-=-

That's a possibility, but it's not a probability.
If we treat people's concerns with panic and advice to run away from unsc
hooling because it's a huge dangerous risk and the thing to do is to run
your kid by and through half a dozen tests and measures to see if he's going
to stay on
track, or whatever, then why would this discussion even exist? If
unschooling isn't worth examining or doing, we can all put our kids in
school.

Unschooling isn't going to "work" well or the same for everyone, but that
doesn't mean nobody can or should pursue it.

Sandra



"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

the_clevengers

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/23/04 1:46:42 PM, tri_mom@c... writes:
>
> << As far as I can
>
> tell (i haven't read this book), he emphasizes getting down with
your
>
> kids, following their lead, and building on their own interests. >>
>
> Sounds like unschooling.

Yes and no. AFAIK, He emphasizes doing this in a specific way to
counteract the characteristics of Asperger's and other syndromes. I
certainly think it's more unschooler-friendly than many of the more
Pavlovian-based interventions out there, but I'm not sure if it would
meet many people's definitions of unschooling.

> Sounds like exactly the kind of advice that was being critized the
past two
> days.

Hmmmm... I don't see that at all. The only advice that was criticized
as far as I know was the advice to cancel an appointment to a vision
specialist for a child that had blurry and doubled vision and
headaches from using his eyes. I haven't seen anyone say not to get
down and work with your kid on whatever issues they have. Assuming
that the original poster does end up going to the vision specialist,
she'll get a lot of these exercises to do at home with her kid as
well, along with some specialized equipment to use in doing so.

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

Marjorie Kirk

There's a really interesting book out called The Boy who Loved Windows(I
think) about a mom who worked with Greenspan to help her autistic son. If I
remember it right she spent about 8 hours a day doing "floortime" with him
as an infant to stimulate him to "overcome" autism. It's a very interesting
book.

Marjorie



Also, some parents I know have given Stanley Greenspan's book "The Child
With Special Needs: Encouraging Intellectual and Emotional Growth" really
good reviews. Greenspan has gone against a large portion of the medical and
therapeutical establishment in maintaining that parents can provide a huge
role in helping kids. As far as I can tell (i haven't read this book), he
emphasizes getting down with your kids, following their lead, and building
on their own interests. He calls this method "Floortime" and it is the
subject of huge debate in the medical/psychological establishment. I have no
idea how schoolish/not schoolish his ideas are in general, but his book
might provide some helpful things that a parent could try with their child
who wants to change their social interactions.


Blue Skies,
-Robin-



-

Kimberly Fry

A good book on dyslexia is "Overcoming Dyslexia" by Sally Shaywitz, M.D. Mostly common sense stuff, but somethings that might not occur to you. Some examples: large print books, increasing text size on computer monitors, audio books, movies ("Troy" instead of reading "The Illiad"), etc. Ignore the school bent and take what fits.

Also, somewhere in there are stories about authors (and others) who still struggle and yet are successful in their chosen field. Stephen J. Cannell is one who still struggles and yet has written for several TV shows and has also written many novels.

Lots of time emailing, chats, im, online gaming, etc. can make vast improvements both in spelling and reading. Typing can compensate for handwriting difficulties and the word processor will correct some spelling and grammar errors.

Kim






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