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-=-Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4582-=-

Please try to remember to transfer the name of the thread when you respond
from digest.


In a message dated 4/16/04 5:08:09 PM, kontessa_rose@... writes:

<< I have noticed that in any group people who are exteme do more damage
then good.
>>

In this group, unschooling is not the extreme, it's the topic.

If you've met unschooled kids and you think they're damaged, let's talk about
that.
If you have not met older always-unschooled kids, then maybe your general
statement will do more damage than good.

-=- As I read responces to ideas on transcripts I thought it stupid to not be
willing to make letter grades so that a child can enter school! -=-

STUPID?

You're calling integrity "stupid" in the same post in which you talked
about "more damage than good"?

My child could have entered school anytime since 1991.
My children could enter school tomorrow, and get some high school transcripts.

The same principles on which I've based my mothering thusfar will be
shattered if I start to lie about what I'm doing now.

Children CAN and DO and WILL get into college without a school-looking
transcript.
That being true (not maybe, but proven), then why would a parent model
dishonesty?

-=-My child is unschooling in an eclectic way. At 4 years old . . . .-=-

She's not legally bound to "be schooled" so why be schooling her in ANY way
at this point?
She's four. Why can't she just be living a happy "preschool" life?

-=-some jobs even demading their own testing before an interview-=--

Practicing could be accomplished with magazine surveys and trivia books.

-=-I want my child to have good testing skills. College will demand it just
as jobs she may wish to do might. I would not harm her by not helping her
devolop those needed skills. -=-

I have never known one parent to successfully ignore a test skill. Lots have
said they would. All have said "I couldn't help..." about knowing that their
child tested low, or average or high. They treat their children differently.

You could harm your child by encouraging testing if that testing involves
having her tested.

-=-
When the time comes her and I shall put together a transcript for her, we
shall grade her on topics she has covered honestly. -=-

You might want to be careful about using the word "shall" about what you
think you'll do twelve years from now.

-=-Tests shall be nothing more then a tool she can use to gage where she is
at in topics she is interested in.-=-

You can brag about what you think YOU "shall" do in advance, but you cannot
declare what tests shall be. They already are what they are.

-=-I do not think that is anti unschooling as I shall not be pushing her to
take them. I will show her the value of them.-=-

Before she can make an "informed consent" decision, she needs to know both
sides. Otherwise, if you just show her "the value," there's not much difference
between that and pushing her to take them.

-=-My job is to prepair her for life as an adult, and it does not matter if
we like it or not, tests are a part of it for now. -=-

For now, she's four years old. If you see your job as helping her be the
happiest four year old she could possibly be, the learning will just flow in.
If you spend her fourth year, and fifth, and sixth, preparing for college,
you're not using your time as well as you could.

-=-JMHO-=-

Humble opinions don't usually include telling the other people they're stupid
and doing more harm than good, do they? Maybe I misunderstand "humble
opinion."

Sandra

Kimberly

> Please try to remember to transfer the name of the thread when you
respond
> from digest.
Thank you for the reminder, I should have remembered that. Being in
Digest is something new to me but needed as this group is very
active.
>
> In a message dated 4/16/04 5:08:09 PM, kontessa_rose@y... writes:
>
> << I have noticed that in any group people who are exteme do more
damage
> then good.
> In this group, unschooling is not the extreme, it's the topic.

I am not sure if unschooling in itself is extreme. I think it is a
bad idea to not be willing to introduce knowledge to a child, as we
have been doing it for a very long time, far longer then we have had
schools. Parents would teach their children what they thought they
needed to know to be a useful. I do not know a culture that did not
ask that children do something to help the family such as chores,
watching the younger one. They needed to told how to do much of it I
think, or maybe showed closer to what I am trying to say.

I think it is a negative thing for a parent to not present a child
with what they think they should know. Like manners, and morals. At 4
years old I can and feel I should teach my daughter these things.
Along with how to clean her room, not to run in the road and why. I
take the time to teach her things I know. Sometimes she is
interested, sometimes not. I am not going to stop trying to teach her
why she should not touch the stove when I am cooking just because at
that moment she does not want to hear it!

>
> If you've met unschooled kids and you think they're damaged, let's
talk about
> that.

Ok, lets talk about it. I have a friend with three kids. I thought I
knew her well. I knew she homeschooled. I left my child with her to
baby sit. On my way to pick up my child I was pulling into the drive
way and almost hit her 18 month old. Alone, playing in the front
yard, no mother in sight, infact no one in sight. I go in to find the
tow older boys 5 and 7 I believe watching TV with friends. Where is
your mother I ask. Neither one know. Why is the baby out side I ask.
Again neither one know. They do not seem to care either. I search the
house. No mother, and my daughter can not be found either. I find
them out side in the back yard. back yard has a 6 foot high solid
wood fence. They are spray painting something. I run and hug my
child. The mother askes me what it wrong. I hand her, her baby. I
asked how long they have been out here. About 20 minutes she says. I
aks her who was watching her baby. She says the bay was in the high
chair and the boys where watching her. I tell her what I found. She
does not seem bothered. She says the kids will learn what is safe and
what is not.

I was not happy and tried to make a fast exit. She sees me upset and
takers her sons in a room to spank them for not watching thier
sister. She gives them lots of freedom but also spanks them for
things like talking back and not responding to a demand right away.
Confuses the heck out of me. (I am not one for spanking)

Then I learn she unschools. She tells me about it and I find that I
might like it as I do not think schools are healthy and I also do not
think a child should be pushed to learn math and reading so young, I
feel they have other things to be learning.

She takes things to the extreme, her sons know little other then
phrases from the bible that she does have them learn. And worse, they
do not feel like they have to be responcible for anything.

I am sure there are many more good then bad unschoolers. Again, I
just think extreme is bad. I do not think unschooling in itself is
bad. Just those that say it must be their way or no way. Thus many
have left this group to look for a more eclectic and free thinking
way of unschooling. They do unschool in the sence that they do not
push the classes of schooling and the bad things (Bad things
including those things found in the book dumbing us down and other
anti school books like it) and they still call them selves
unschoolers. And I think they are, but they are doing it in the way
that works best for them and their children.

> If you have not met older always-unschooled kids, then maybe your
general
> statement will do more damage than good.

I think you confused something. I never said unschooling is extreme,
just that in all groups there are extreme people who take things to
an extreme level.

>
> -=- As I read responces to ideas on transcripts I thought it stupid
to not be
> willing to make letter grades so that a child can enter school! -=-
>
> STUPID?
>
> You're calling integrity "stupid" in the same post in which you
talked
> about "more damage than good"?

Yes Stupid. I think any parent not willing to look at their childs
learning and grade them on it for the betterment of the education the
child wishes to have is being stupid. At 18 I think you and your
child would be ready to get real and take the tests needed. Do you
think you can stop them from having test in college? I do not think
so. And some colleges WILL NOT accept you without transcripts. Maybe
that will change by the time my baby is old enough to go. For now we
are dealing with it seeing both hubby and I are trying to get back to
school. It is easier for him as he is in the military, not so easy
for me as I have limited choices as to where I can go and how much I
can pay!

I do not think grading my child and creating a transcript would be
damaging to my integrity. I am a realist, and my daughter will know
that we are flexable about things we are not able to change. If they
want transcripts, we will make it happen for her, even if she needs
to be tested and go over all she has learned to grade herself fairly.


>
> My child could have entered school anytime since 1991.
> My children could enter school tomorrow, and get some high school
transcripts.
>
> The same principles on which I've based my mothering thusfar will
be
> shattered if I start to lie about what I'm doing now.
>
> Children CAN and DO and WILL get into college without a school-
looking
> transcript.
> That being true (not maybe, but proven), then why would a parent
model
> dishonesty?
>
> -=-My child is unschooling in an eclectic way. At 4 years
old . . . .-=-
>
> She's not legally bound to "be schooled" so why be schooling her in
ANY way
> at this point?

I do not think that teaching her life lessons that will help her at 4
years old as schooling.

> She's four. Why can't she just be living a happy "preschool" life?

Since when is life about being happy? Life is not about being happy,
not that I have ever learned. Life is about being useful, about being
a good person, about makeing life woth something. Happy comes with
being useful. My child is so happy to help, she does not see work as
something negative or as something she must do before she can have
fun. Work, learning, playing, are all part of her learning and to
her, all fun! That in itself helps me think we are doing something
right.
>
> -=-some jobs even demading their own testing before an interview-=--
>
> Practicing could be accomplished with magazine surveys and trivia
books.

Very very true! I had not thought about this. Thank you, I hope in
years to come I remember it.

>
> -=-I want my child to have good testing skills. College will demand
it just
> as jobs she may wish to do might. I would not harm her by not
helping her
> devolop those needed skills. -=-
>
> I have never known one parent to successfully ignore a test skill.
Lots have
> said they would. All have said "I couldn't help..." about knowing
that their
> child tested low, or average or high. They treat their children
differently.

I am not talking about testing a child, I am talking about testing a
young adult getting ready to go out into the world. Like age 16ish!

>
> You could harm your child by encouraging testing if that testing
involves
> having her tested.
>
> -=-
> When the time comes her and I shall put together a transcript for
her, we
> shall grade her on topics she has covered honestly. -=-
>
> You might want to be careful about using the word "shall" about
what you
> think you'll do twelve years from now.

I am one of those people that can say I shall do something and more
then likely I will do it. Even ten years latter. One of the rare
people who do what they say they shall do. Point: I was 10 years old
and learned about surrogacy, my step mother wanted to have a child
with my father. I told her and everyone some day I would have a baby
for another couple because I knew I could. And I did. twice, 10 years
latter. So I would get to know someone before saying what they can
and can not do. Certainly things change, I might not be alive then or
we might not even need to. But that will not keep me from planning!

>
> -=-Tests shall be nothing more then a tool she can use to gage
where she is
> at in topics she is interested in.-=-
>
> You can brag about what you think YOU "shall" do in advance, but
you cannot
> declare what tests shall be. They already are what they are.
>
> -=-I do not think that is anti unschooling as I shall not be
pushing her to
> take them. I will show her the value of them.-=-

>
> Before she can make an "informed consent" decision, she needs to
know both
> sides. Otherwise, if you just show her "the value," there's not
much difference
> between that and pushing her to take them.
>
> -=-My job is to prepair her for life as an adult, and it does not
matter if
> we like it or not, tests are a part of it for now. -=-
>
> For now, she's four years old. If you see your job as helping her
be the
> happiest four year old she could possibly be, the learning will
just flow in.
> If you spend her fourth year, and fifth, and sixth, preparing for
college,
> you're not using your time as well as you could.
>
> -=-JMHO-=-
>
> Humble opinions don't usually include telling the other people
they're stupid
> and doing more harm than good, do they? Maybe I
misunderstand "humble
> opinion."

Goodness, did I say they are stupid? I do not think so, I think the
desition to not help their child get into a college that demands
transcrips because it would be in thier eyes lieing, mine changing,
that it would be stupid. I think some advice should be taken here.
Picture my voice as your best friend and I am telling you I think
your not being smart about this! Picture me saying that I think it is
better to change when needed a little then to fight the system that
shall not change for you but could very well make your child very
happy.

Blessings,
Kimmy

>
> Sandra

Fetteroll

on 4/18/04 1:37 AM, Kimberly at kontessa_rose@... wrote:

> Parents would teach their children what they thought they
> needed to know to be a useful.

I think it would help for you to read a lot more about what unschoolers
actually do before reprimanding a list full of people for what you think
they may be doing.

It isn't fair for you to reprimand 1500 people for how your friend is living
her life, what she's doing with her kids and what she's calling herself.
Anyone can call herself an unschooler.

Unschooling children learn by doing, by living, by observation, by asking
questions, by being interested, by being with us and by us being with them.
It's the way adults learn on their own. It's the same way children learned
to speak. We didn't need to teach them. We made language available by
talking to them about what interested them and what might interest them and
answering their questions. They used English to get what they wanted and got
better as a side effect. That's how learning works.

The best place to start is John Holt. Then the message boards at
Unschooling.com (Http://www.unschooling.com) and Sandra's site
(http://sandradodd.com)

Unschooling is not unparenting. Unschooling is not neglect. We removed
school and replace it with something else. You need to read more about
unschooling to find out what we've replaced school with. It isn't easy for
many people to get. It takes a lot of reading, patience and respectful
questioning.

You will get more helpful answers if you ask how people are doing something
that concerns you rather than reprimanding them for what you think they're
doing or not doing.

> I do not know a culture that did not
> ask that children do something to help the family such as chores,
> watching the younger one. They needed to told how to do much of it I
> think, or maybe showed closer to what I am trying to say.

My daughter lives with me. She sees me doing things. I ask if she'd like to
help. She asks if she can help. I don't need to make her do chores for her
to learn. She knows how to do basic tasks around the house and some cooking.
I've replaced "making" with something else. Please do read, ask questions
and find out what that is.

> I think it is a negative thing for a parent to not present a child
> with what they think they should know. Like manners, and morals. At 4
> years old I can and feel I should teach my daughter these things.

Rather than assuming we aren't passing on social skills, please do ask how
unschoolers do it.

> I am not going to stop trying to teach her
> why she should not touch the stove when I am cooking just because at
> that moment she does not want to hear it!

And an unschooler would know that her child is learning all the time. I
didn't need to teach my daughter the stove was hot. At some point I probably
stopped her from getting burned or said "Careful, it's hot." I may have held
my hand near the stove to show her how to feel how hot it was. It only takes
a moment to learn a stove is hot!

After that it would be my responsibility to keep her safe because even
though she had the knowledge that the stove was hot and could burn her, she
might not have the body awareness of how close she was. I don't remember her
*not* being aware, but it would still be my responsibility to be aware for
her to move her if she got too close or remind her the stove was hot.

> Ok, lets talk about it. I have a friend with three kids.

It's more useful to talk unschooling as defined on this list. There are no
official membership cards that identify someone a certified unschooler. (Or
vegetarian. Or Episcopalian. Or environmentalist.) Anyone can call herself
an unschooler. That doesn't mean she knows what it is.

> I am sure there are many more good then bad unschoolers.

And there are many people who call themselves unschoolers who don't
understand the concept. It's more than not doing school. Not doing school is
the beginning point. It needs to be replaced with something else, not left
as a blank spot in kids lives.

> They do unschool in the sence that they do not
> push the classes of schooling and the bad things (Bad things
> including those things found in the book dumbing us down and other
> anti school books like it) and they still call them selves
> unschoolers. And I think they are, but they are doing it in the way
> that works best for them and their children.

You will learn more about unschooling by asking us questions about how we
unschool and how we define unschooling than by telling us what unschooling
is.

> I never said unschooling is extreme,
> just that in all groups there are extreme people who take things to
> an extreme level.

Some mothers smack their kids. Some mothers lock their kids in closets.

I presume you call yourself a mother.

Should the extremes who use a word define what a word means? Should they
even be included in the definition?

> Yes Stupid. I think any parent not willing to look at their childs
> learning and grade them on it for the betterment of the education the
> child wishes to have is being stupid.

*If* the only way to get into college were to create a list of courses with
letter grades, it would be foolish not to.

Most college understand about homeschooling. Many even understand about
unschooling.

What would be stupid, would be to assume I already know enough about getting
an unschooled child into a college from my knowledge of how schooled kids
get into college. If my daughter were getting close, I'd start reading
everything I could about how homeschoolers and unschoolers get into college.

You're calling people on this list who *have* read about how unschoolers get
into colleges, who *have8 kids who have gotten into college without standard
school transcripts stupid when apparently you are the one who hasn't read
anything beyond the standard information and don't know anything beyond what
you think you know.

> Do you
> think you can stop them from having test in college?

Have you read anything about how unschoolers have responded to college? Or
are you just guessing and then telling us your guesses to "enlighten" us?

> And some colleges WILL NOT accept you without transcripts.

Have you read about unschoolers who have gotten into colleges?

Have you read about people changing the system? Schools are really good at
teaching people to accept things the way they are. To sit down, shut up and
do what the authorities tell them is best.

If someone is determined to get into a college there are ways. You'll learn
more by asking people who've done it than by telling people what you think
is true.

> If they
> want transcripts, we will make it happen for her, even if she needs
> to be tested and go over all she has learned to grade herself fairly.

This list is about unschooling. If you want to know what unschoolers do, how
unschoolers get into college, then please ask.

There are plenty of places for people to find out how to do things the
standard way. There are plenty of places for people to trade ignorances and
make things up to soothe their fears.

But that's not what people signed onto *this* list for. They signed on to
find out how unschoolers approach life.

> Since when is life about being happy?

Life is what we choose to make it. Is there a law against life being about
being happy? Will you get arrested? Will you be fined?

So who is stopping you from making life about being happy?

> Life is not about being happy,
> not that I have ever learned.

People can learn new things their whole lives. It doesn't stop when school
stops. That would be one of the basic things an unschooling parent should
understand before starting unschooling.

> Life is about being useful, about being
> a good person, about makeing life woth something.

That's called a philosophy of life. It isn't everyone's philosophy.

> Happy comes with being useful.

That's one path to happiness.

There are many paths to happiness and we can take them all :-) Happiness can
come from doing something useful. It can come from helping people. It can
come from doing something you enjoy. It can come from learning something. It
can come from being in someone's company. We don't have to pick just one!

If you're choosing to make life about being useful, that's your choice. But
it doesn't make sense to tell people life can't be about being happy because
it can.

> My child is so happy to help, she does not see work as
> something negative or as something she must do before she can have
> fun. Work, learning, playing, are all part of her learning and to
> her, all fun! That in itself helps me think we are doing something
> right.

If you were to read the list (and the message board and Sandra's site) you'd
read similar things.

> I am not talking about testing a child, I am talking about testing a
> young adult getting ready to go out into the world. Like age 16ish!

Have you had a 16 yo ready to go out into the world? There are people on
this list who have had real 16 yos going out into the real world. You could
ask how they did it and how it turned out for them. You might find out
something you didn't know.

> I am one of those people that can say I shall do something and more
> then likely I will do it. Even ten years latter. One of the rare
> people who do what they say they shall do.

Someone promising to do something and doing it is admirable.

Having a dream and working towards it is admirable.

But being certain that you won't learn anything in the next 10 years that
could change your mind about something is foolish. It isn't a good thing for
life and especially not a good thing for unschooling!

> Goodness, did I say they are stupid?

Yes:

> I think any parent not willing to look at their childs
> learning and grade them on it for the betterment of the education the
> child wishes to have is being stupid.

> I think some advice should be taken here.

I think some reading on your part should be taken here. You're are speaking
to people who have done what you're saying can't be done and telling us we
need to listen to your convictions about what you believe is true.

Read. Ask questions. It's a lot more useful for learning than repeating what
you think you know.

Joyce

cinward2001

>I am not going to stop trying to teach her
> why she should not touch the stove when I am cooking just because
at
> that moment she does not want to hear it!

If it's taking multiple attempts to "teach" your daughter why she
shouldn't touch the stove when you're cooking, something is seriously
wrong. If your daughter has no interest in the stove (you say she
does not want to hear it!), then there's no need to be "teaching" her
anything at that moment in time. If she HAS shown an interest in
touching the stove, then let her be near enough to feel the heat. No
healthy child is going to do more than that, so there's no need
to "teach" or lecture.

> I am sure there are many more good then bad unschoolers. Again, I
> just think extreme is bad. I do not think unschooling in itself is
> bad. Just those that say it must be their way or no way. Thus many
> have left this group to look for a more eclectic and free thinking
> way of unschooling. They do unschool in the sence that they do not
> push the classes of schooling and the bad things (Bad things
> including those things found in the book dumbing us down and other
> anti school books like it) and they still call them selves
> unschoolers. And I think they are, but they are doing it in the way
> that works best for them and their children.


Using an example of how something is done poorly is not an excuse to
then do it poorly yourself. Your friend was not an unschooler. I'll
agree that there are "degrees" of unschooling in the sense that some
families are "further along the journey." But spanking is not
unschooling, forcing learning of any kind is not unschooling.

> Yes Stupid. I think any parent not willing to look at their childs
> learning and grade them on it for the betterment of the education
the
> child wishes to have is being stupid. At 18 I think you and your
> child would be ready to get real and take the tests needed. Do you
> think you can stop them from having test in college? I do not think
> so. And some colleges WILL NOT accept you without transcripts.

Oy. So much UN-unschooling thought in one paragraph. :( The
emphasis here is on the parent, isn't it? Why should the parent need
to grade the child's education? If the child chooses to go to
college, the child will find a way. She'll ask her parent to help
create a transcript, or she'll decide to go take a test taking
course, or read books on being a better test-taker. She'll take
community college courses or find an on-line course. There are many,
many options. And the phrase "get real?!" The implication is that
spending 18 yrs unschooling is not "real," that 18, it's time to "get
real." Unschooling is as "real" as it gets.
>
> I do not think grading my child and creating a transcript would be
> damaging to my integrity. I am a realist, and my daughter will know
> that we are flexable about things we are not able to change. If
they
> want transcripts, we will make it happen for her, even if she needs
> to be tested and go over all she has learned to grade herself
fairly.

Good grief. Again, it's about what YOU will do. YOU are a realist.
You've already decided what things can be changed and what can't.
You state that "We will make it happen." There are a LOT of
assumptions in that paragraph. As an unschooler, my thoughts are
that IF my boys decide to go to college one day, THEY will decide on
what's necessary, or needed...I'll be there to help, IF they want it.

> I am not talking about testing a child, I am talking about testing
a
> young adult getting ready to go out into the world. Like age 16ish!

Then that young adult is old enough to make her own decisions (not to
imply that younger children aren't...my boys make their own decisions
now). Why try to make that decision for her now?

> I am one of those people that can say I shall do something and
more
> then likely I will do it.

The problem here is that you're planning what YOU SHALL do with and
for your daughter, when it should be what SHE will do. It's not YOUR
life...it's HER life. Trust her to make her own decisions. Yes,
you're there to help her and support her, but it is so unfair of you
to plan her life for her. She may decide to become the lead
guitarist in a rock band, or build a small cabin in the woods
somewhere and become a happy hermit, but you've already decided that
to be happy, she has to be USEFUL, and that to be successful, she has
to be a good test taker. :( Let HER decide what happy and useful
will be in HER life.

> I think some advice should be taken here.
> Picture my voice as your best friend and I am telling you I think
> your not being smart about this! Picture me saying that I think it
is
> better to change when needed a little then to fight the system that
> shall not change for you but could very well make your child very
> happy.

Egads. You have a 4 yr. old and you're posting to women that have
young adults and teenagers that have been unschooled...and those
young adults and teenagers are healthy and HAPPY! Again, YOU'VE made
decisions about a system that you perceive. Let your daughter grow
up to make her own decisions about "the system." It's not up to THE
SYSTEM to make your child happy...or YOU! It's up to her. And the
best way to help her on that journey is to give her freedom.

Cindy